Bottom Line..."discrimination" still cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in this story.
Bottom Line..."discrimination" still cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in this story.
That is true. Piss poor customer service though can be with just the look of the tape and this employee should be terminated. Like I stated in my reply, there is no need to turn away ANY customer (or kill the timer), regardless of any reason, 10 minutes before you close.Originally Posted by MissMarcie
You wanted the job, you got the job, your expected to perform the job to the best of your ability. If you can't, someone else can and frankly in this economy, that's how companies are looking at it. for every 1 lazy employee, there are 10 hard workers looking to try and just make ends meet.
You take the CD aspect out of this and it's still wrong.
Flip Flops were made for Beaches & Bath Houses, We have neither in 2017. Lose the flip flops!
MissMarcie, are you a lawyer? Do you understand the explanation that Acastina (who is a lawyer) offered?
The case is not at trial and proving anything at this point, "beyond a shadow of a doubt", does not come into question. lol.
Acastina assessed the situation based on Presh's account (see her post #25) and determined there is enough cause, IF Presh and Tea are of a mind to do this, for a complaint based on a civil rights violation. THEN the ball would be placed in Starbuck's & Safeway's court, and it would be up to THEM to prove there were non-discriminatory reasons that caused the refusal of service (see Acastina's post #42). AND ONY IF it ever went that far, then the Judge would have to consider both sides and make a judgment, unless the matter was settled quietly between the parties beforehand. If not, the Judge would be the one to determine "beyond a shadow of doubt", not you.
The determination of legal matters is accomplished by a series of logical steps leading to trial and it is useless to discuss any outcome of trial until such steps are entered into. That said, Presh has made it clear she will not take the matter to Court and for you to continue trying to determine the outcome of a trial while not considering the legal process such as it has been clearly explained in this thread, gives me the impression you are trolling, IMO.
EDIT Ooops, Presh I forgot to mention that I'm so sorry you and Tea had to suffer through this. I would have felt angry as well. As a SO I also have developed a sense of when people are just being ornery vs. being ornery because they object to my SO's presentation. I can also tell the difference between someone staring at us because they are genuinely curious or if they stare at us out of disdain. And I don't consider myself a paranoid person. That said, what you feel, how you are prepared to deal with it, and any possible legal outcome should you take legal action are three separate matters and it's a shame that some people in this thread are conflating the three.
Last edited by ReineD; 03-07-2012 at 03:29 PM.
Reine
Thank you Reine,
This has been an eye opener. My god, I requested a Mod on my own thread !
It's such a shame some people can't tell the differance or don't want to admit this is happening.
Sinse it seems starbucks isn't going to call us back, I guess it's important to drive out and speak in person to the manager. I dread this , but I would like an explaination, and closure... No pun intended.
Presh
Presh, if I may suggest, take some time first and write out what you will say, if only for practice. I would pay particular attention to Acastina's posts, but put it in layman's terms as simply as you can. You don't want to threaten them. But you do want them to know that you know your rights. Another very helpful post (IMO) is Purple's Post #20.
Good luck!
Reine
My earlier question in post #68 has been misinterpreted by some and I wish to clarify that I am not questioning whether Presh and Tea actually spent 10 minutes waiting. What I wanted to know is if there were extenuating circumstances that prevented them from speaking to the offending employees during that time.
Also to clarify, I mentioned that the security camera recording might be more telling to management than the customer complaint. The reason is that the manager is likely to think that a complaining customer will exaggerate the time spent waiting, but the recording will verify that when Presh said 10 minutes, she meant *10* full minutes.
Eryn
"These girls have the most beautiful dresses. And so do I! How about that!" [Kaylee, in Firefly] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"What do you care what other people think?" [Arlene Feynman, to her husband Richard]
"She's taller than all the women in my family, combined!" [Howard, in The Big Bang Theory]
"Tall, tall girl. The woman could hunt geese with a rake!" [Mary Cooper, in The Big Bang Theory]
As an East Coast colleague of my learned friend, Acostina, I'd like to raise a small point of clarification: "Beyond a Shadow of a Doubt" applies only in criminal cases. In civil cases, the burden of proof is a "Preponderance of the Evidence."
Think the OJ trials. In the criminal case the glove that didn't fit caused the jury to acquit because it raised a shadow of a doubt.. among other shadows we lawyers generally agreed upon after the jury's verdict was handed down but kept quiet about in light of the generally expressed dismay at the acquittal by non-lawyers. In the civil case OJ lost because the families only had to prove that OJ's involvement in the deaths was more likely than not in order to win and strip him of most of his wealth. The preponderance burden can be met with merely the proverbial weight of a feather falling on the otherwise perfectly balanced scales of justice, one way or the other.
My analysis of the Case, if ever brought: the defense would proffer the barista's belief that there were two women waiting in line. She would swear by all she held holy that she had no clue that Tea was a he (the perfect pass). The issue before the finder of fact would be whether she discriminated against Tea while Tea was in her protected status as a CD/TG. If the finder decided that the barista probably, or more likely than not, did not know that there was a CD/TG waiting in line the case would be dismissed. Rude yes, but not guilty of discrimination under Washington State law, as the agent of the real defendants. Fired, likely, (usually when an employee's action forces a defendant to bring expensive defense lawyers out of the gate the employee is gone AFTER the hearing or trial) but the defendant(s) Starbucks and/or Safeway would be off the hook (an ancient and purely legal term by the way, nothing at all to do with fishing).
Whether or not the defendant(s) might offer some small settlement prior to the hearing would probably be based on their measure of the credibility of the barista, on how well or poorly Tea presented on the surveillance tape; and how much extra it would cost to go ahead with the defense, if the defendant(s) allowed that consideration.
To be quite frank, most private lawyers, those who aren't employed by the Government, the ACLU or other similar outfit, simply aren't interested in bringing such cases, unless it's for a client with whom they have more extensive and lucrative business dealings. An exception would be lawyers who want to build up a practice in discrimination law, I suppose. Between us girls, the law schools are flooding the country with far too many new lawyers.
I believe Presh's proposed solution is preferable to bringing any legal action, and I sense that this view is shared by Acostina.
Last edited by Jeninus; 03-07-2012 at 11:29 PM.
Shame on those who think ill of us -- Translated and paraphrased from the motto of the United Kingdom's Most Noble Order of the Garter
In answer to Erin , Tea and I are Taoist. Patience is a virtue.
I'll clear this up moment by moment , But I don't know why it seems important to some people we didn't yell or stamp our feet or otherwise make a scene.
First we went to QFC where the starbucks was closed. We then drove to Safeway because I wanted a double shot grande latte. Tea originally didn't feel like coffee, but as I pointed out we are hours from home , she changed her mind and decided on an americano. I'm the one with the sweet tooth so I'll have any treat available.
Now for the rest of the story. The couple ahead of us had ordered. A couple of furtive looks Then the lady said excuse us and tried to move aside which was when the young barista jumped into action with a story of her life and then "oh, did you know I don't have a fiance anymore ?" The couple were clearly getting as uncomfortable as I was [ with the stories ].
As we began to move forward ,I was at the counter with Tea slightly beside/ behind me. It is my opinion she [ the other customer ] felt this was as wrong as I did.
I felt it was now our turn and the other couple moved to the seating area. I began to order when in a sarcastic voice the girl stated she was closed. I asked when she closed , "7:30" I said "it is 7:32 and we have been waiting our turn for 10 minutes while you talked about your private life "
She turned on her heel and walked away.
That's it.
Please, it is employee [singular ] No others around but the one chatty girl.
I hope I have cleared up any questions you may have had. Standing in line , we don't get loud or nasty , we simply wait our turn as most people do.
Presh & Tea
I'm also very curious why some people have a problem with lawyers. Trust me, you will love them when you need them.[ nothing to do with this incident ] I'm just curious.
Good night,
P
What a thought-provoking thread, to say the least! Sorry Presh, but after 2 mins max of listening to her drivel I would have politely interrupted and asked "can I place my order now since it is almost closing time, etc?". No way would I have waited almost 10 mins. And I would have gotten her name (surely she had a name tag) and reported her conduct the next day - probably in person. Waiting for a return phone call is a mug's game......
I hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction and I def agree with those who say the young lady should be pounding the bricks now looking for a new job......
Sheesh...I see it as bad customer service at best and discrimination at worst...
Donnatracy,
We did call starbucks the following day , gave them all the information, then our name and phone number. They were to look into it and call us back.
Good night,
Presh GG
There are some members of this forum who would do well to go back and read Presh's op on this incident. They would realize that what she was seeking from Starbucks was not monetary compensation, nor was she requesting that the barista lose her job. Presh was simply asking that the barista be retrained so that an incident like this one wouldn't happen to anyone else in the future. If you ask me this is a very appropriate and positive response to an onerous occurence.
But more importantly, Presh was also seeking a little support from this forum for having endured such an ugly situation. And although she received it from most, there seems to be a couple of members who are hellbent on reviling her for daring to defend her tg husband as well as the tg community as a whole against the specter of discrimination. She's been criticised for everything ranging from "making a big deal over just 10 minutes" to "waiting a whole 10 minutes in line before raising hell".
Presh,
I think you have written a wonderful thread and you've done a terrific job in fielding the negative commentary from the naysayers. I just hope they will eventually realize that what you are doing is standing up for all of us.
I'm certain that Tea is very proud of you.
I know I am.
Tanya
There is no legal phrase "shadow of a doubt in USA. In criminal court it is "Beyond a reasonable doubt". There will almost alway be some doubt. The burden is to take it beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil matters are as stated. Simply clarifying the issue. Good luck to all.
I tried not to get involved in this thread, but my 2cents worth. No matter how you were dressed, the service was horrible and inexcusable. It is also an indication of poor training and a lack of a work ethic that is so pervasive in todays market.
Perhaps Presh and Tea are just very patient people. I have friends like that and heck, if I'm in no hurry, I'll stand idly in line listening and engaging in chit chat until it's my turn. Just because you and some others on this board would *never* wait that long to raise a stink, doesn't make their doing so improper. Nor does it lend any sort of validation to that employee's actions.
We all know that the ball was dropped here. I'm not going to get into pedantic arguments about whether or not customers are always right. Presh and Tea were well within the window of business prior to their closing time and this person chose to not do their job. For those of you defending the employee and telling Presh to just brush it off, let me ask you this. Are you going to set a line in the sand where this type of action would not be ignored? Safeway probably lost a $6 sale in this failure of a transaction. In your eyes, I guess that's ok. What if someone else came in at the same time the next day looking to buy 4 large drinks, instead? Would a loss of a $20 transaction be enough to spark your interest and ire then? What if they wanted to also buy a few pounds of coffee beans? Would a $30 or $40 loss in sales finally wake you up?
Brushing off and excusing bad behavior only serves to reinforce bad behavior and makes for very poor business practice to say the least.
I agree. One must remember, places of business such as this do not hire, let's say, 'the brightest lights in the parking lot' to make coffee or whatever they do there. No surprise really to hear this happened. Doubt it was gender related.
What in the world has happened here ?
We had a REAL Lawyer here who wrote discrimination law cases [for students ] for a liveing and all that is left of her CONSIDERABLE RESEARCH IN WASHINGTON ST. LAW IS WHAT SMALL QUOTES PEOPLE SAVED.
I am shocked and devastated ...
[B]Do you REALLY think this is an isolated case ?
Do you really think this won't happen again and again or shall we just stay home ? Doesn't anyone want to learn anything from such a fine legal mind as Acostina For the next time when it isn't "just *ing coffee ? And no one could leave her alone and allow me, the op. the respect to learn something I truely wanted to know , what to do THE NEXT TIME .
WHAT??? WERE YOU ALL JUST THREATENED BY HER BRILLIANT ,EXTREMELY WELL RESEARCHED POSTS.?
I DID NOT REALISE IF I ASKED FOR A MODERATOR , I WOULD LOSE [B]THE ONLY INFORMATION IN THIS THREAD I WANTED... FOR THE NEXT TIME. I guess no one could tell the differance between the trolls and the important information.
you weren't happy till you ran her off
thanks alot guys
Last edited by Presh GG; 03-08-2012 at 01:56 PM. Reason: Im still angry
Presh, the troll in question has a habit of stirring up crap. Any reply to her just ends up in post after post, (no win situation) so I avoided her.
Acastina said the correct things IMO. She should be commended for taking a stand here against TG discrimination, not abused about it because she was thought of as a lawyer trying to make a fast buck. She was trying to educate people about TG discrimination. Lawyers fight for minorities, which we are. Things will never change for TG issues unless people make a stand. Presh just you making Safeway/Starbucks management aware of this problem makes it easier for any other minorities.
I really feel bad about the way you and Tea were treated, it is unacceptable.
Last edited by Marleena; 03-08-2012 at 02:26 PM.
Presh
Not sure what you mean? Acastina's posts are still here, and intact, non of her posting has been deleted, so unless she has contacted you via PM, I don't understand this post
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
Nigella, I think that Presh means that Acastina decided to leave this thread because of some of the negative comments about her posts.
If that is the case, I hope she is still reading it and realises that the comments made will not be tolerated. Her advice is as valid as anyone elses. whilst others may not agree with it, it is not their place to grind her down, although they can comment on it without trolling.
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
Frankly this type of thread annoys the heck out of me. I can't believe anyone would stand there for 10 minutes under those circumstances??? But I would like to ask how many of us have been the "victim" of poor service over the years? I know I have been and I wasn't wearing a dress at the time. My point is...Had I been wearing a dress on those occasions, would that have been discrimination? Of course not...just plain crap service. As a society, I think we all need to harden up a bit and stop being so thin skinned and easily offended.
And that troll has now been banned. After reading her posts in this thread, she reminded me of another member I'd banned, same writing style, same trolling, some other things that I won't mention here as those are the obvious things that give her away each time... yes more than a few
Administrator
Missing my Libra babe Sherlyn, I hope she's rocking up there with the angels
Missing our Rianna, doesn't seem right, gone to early, hope she's partying with Sherlyn
Thank you Tam and Nigella and you too Purple !
I really don't understand Trolls. Some of them are long time members here and the others , are they even TG/CD ? I don't "get" what they get out of it being so mean ?
Presh GG
We have not gone back to Seattle, but it is definately in our plans to just talk quietly with the manager.
Yay! You're my hero! Thanks for the job you're doingAnd that troll has now been banned. After reading her posts in this thread, she reminded me of another member I'd banned, same writing style, same trolling, some other things that I won't mention here as those are the obvious things that give her away each time... yes more than a few
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
Posting Permissions
