I think she deleted it. If a mod deleted it, they probably would have removed the quoting posts as well.Originally Posted by Aprilrain
I think she deleted it. If a mod deleted it, they probably would have removed the quoting posts as well.
The standards of care currently specify three months of counseling, which could well have been met here. Also a doctor has prescribed apparently. So that would be the medical pro...?
No, they don't require three months of counseling or RLE. They used to.
SOC 7 -
1. Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria;
2. Capacity to make a fully informed decision and to consent for treatment;
3. Age of majority in a given country (if younger, follow the Standards of Care outlined in section
VI);
4. If significant medical or mental health concerns are present, they must be reasonably wellcontrolled.
She was prescribed spiro (which is pretty safe) by endocrinologist. In my mind that is pretty good medical care - it is not like she is self medicating,
As far as rushing - I started HRT only a month after my first time out in public. I am sure many of us can be accused of going to fast and not considering how it effects other people, that we are ignoring how they feel about it, by people in our lives.
In college - maybe she can be reasonably passable and lives in a state where you can change your gender marker on your divers license or state ID without surgery (she is young, hrt can do have amazing effect when young), if she transitions now she could graduate as herself and enter the job market as her gender, without having to go through all the difficulty trying to transition at a job. Why create more history as a man? Really I think if she is considering transition starting hrt now is the thing to do. Why wait.
Last edited by arbon; 03-11-2012 at 12:13 AM.
Did Dav know about Liz? I suspect that both of you may have a great deal to talk about. Your son has probably been struggling with this issue for at least 10-15 years, and has been doing everything in his power to hide it from so many people that he may have been afraid to talk to you about it before.
The good thing for you is that as Liz, you actually have more to talk about. You're lucky, your son survived, many transsexuals don't live much beyond their twenties, or they go into the closet so deeply that they can't be honest about anything with anyone. The fact that your son/daughter has taken the courageous step and told you how she really feels, and is willing to ask for your help, and would like to assure you the opportunity to have grand-children, is a very good sign that you have extraordinarily good communication with your child.
As hard as it may be for you, you really need to think about the alternatives? If you attempt to "put your foot down", you could find that your child will sever all contacts with you, move as far away as possible, and may even give up the chance to have grandchildren. Worse, he could attempt to please you and live as a man, hating you and blaming you for his being forced to endure it. Even worse, he could end up realizing that he can't live as a man, and that he thinks it's too late to become a woman - and end his life.
Clearly, this is something he has thought about his whole life, probably before he even discovered sexual arousal. The world of boys is competitive and violent, boys have to be trained not to hit girls, but the adults assume that boys hitting each other is somehow normal and healthy. But if you re transgendered, you don't hit back, which means you get hit more often - as a "sissy".
Often, almost out of instinct for survival, the transgendered boy starts to play with girls, who don't hit, and learns of a softer, gentler world, where the games are based on nurture and cooperation, where the games are more artistic and the clothes are softer and there is a lot of laughter, and it's OK to cry.
But then comes the day, when it's no longer acceptable to play with the girls, when a parent or teacher decides that the boys shouldn't play with the girls, and the girls shouldn't play with the boys. The tom-boy might be able to cross the boundry, but she knows that she will have to fight and compete, and WIN! The sissy knows that even if he wanted to keep playing with the girls, the teacher wouldn't allow it, and it would just make the boys want to beat him up that much more often.
Finally, at 21 years old, he's legally old enough to make the decision for himself. You might have thought that 21 was the age when you could drink legally, or maybe even when you might want to think about getting married. For him, he has probably been thinking about the day when he was 21 as soon as he found out that he had to wait until he was 21 to begin the transition process without having to get parental consent.
I was 6 when they stared beating me up for being a sissy, and by the time I was 8, I had already begged a psychologist to help me turn into a girl. I still didn't understand that such things were not possible (in 1964 it wasn't possible, the most one could hope for was castration).
In some countries, like India, boys will run away from home to join a cult of "girls" who have themselves castrated to become more feminine. The cult is over 9,000 years old.
I was the same way... one difference is that i did 3 months of RLT prior to my FFS "just to double check"...hehe... my therapist says i had the most methodical and risk averse transition she's seen..(maybe its because i used to be a risk manager for a company..heh)
++++++++++++++++++++
as far as the OP...
i think the folks that mentioned the difficulty of email are spot on.
Get out of email land and hopefully that will improve communications..
Maybe you can set a time to talk on the phone. make it official and YOU start by expressing your support...challenge her not by attacking her decision (which you are doing now, whether you mean to or not), but by asking for a specific and well thought out plan...
frankly the idea of banking sperm shows very strong foresight and wisdom..
The generation of our children is incredibly facile with information in ways that surprise me all the time. I bet she knows ALOT about transition and can perhaps calm your fears.
She deleted it herself.
Administrator
Missing my Libra babe Sherlyn, I hope she's rocking up there with the angels
Missing our Rianna, doesn't seem right, gone to early, hope she's partying with Sherlyn
To echo what several people have said, definately talk in person. But having said that, your child is asking you to support them, which it seems you are doing, but also you want them not to make an irreversable mistake. The thing about going ahead with HRT while not only having had very few counselling appointments, but openly rejecting them, is worrysome to me. Why are they being rejected? There could be many things here, your child could be correct, they are TS and don't need someone to tell them that, possible, even probable. They could also just have found a bad counseller, some don't even believe in or acknowledge TS. Or your child could also not be truely TS, or not yet ready for this step, and the counseller picked up on it, and your child resents the counseller for it.
Also, the part about not dressing very often has me curious. It is true that dressing really has little to do with TG/TS, but someone who does little to identify with the target gender but still identifies as TS does raise some flags. In my case, I am officially diagnosed, which is helpful in dealing with all of the other professionals in the process, but I also rarely dress, not because I don't want to, but because I have other obstacles to deal with. I do try to express my femininity in subtle ways as much as possible, and this helps. Perhaps this is what your child is doing at this point.
The sperm banking thing I see in two ways. First, yes it is a sensible and mature precaution, but it also strikes me as a bit of "have your cake and eat it too" thinking. Yes, your child deserves to have children of their own, but being TS does involve giving up some of the things of the birth gender. I am of very mixed feeling about that whole aspect, as I am sure are many here.
As for the money, $500 is a drop in the bucket when it comes to TS stuff. Most of the MTFs have spent many times that on something as simple as hair removal, I know I have. When you get to things like FFS, Breast augs, and of course SRS, then you are talking real money. Your child needs to consider this, life ain't cheap, and being a TS is really expensive. If they are worrying about something like this money wise, what is going to happen when they get to the really expensive stuff, are they going to expect you to pay for that too? Before they go very much further down the road, they need to develop some sort of financial plan.
Personally, I think that your child does owe you the simple courtesy of talking to you about what they want the money for and the consequences of their actions. It does not seem to me that you are trying to stop them, just making sure that they are not making rash decisions, like a parent should. I am having enough problems dealing with my own transition, dealing with someone elses cannot be easy either. Good luck to everyone involved and let us know what happens......Stephanie
Please quote the offending comment and explain why it would be considered a "slight".
I already did that. Starting a negative comment with "only a crossdresser would" isn't discourse and is a good way to start a devisif, off topic fight.
Sally
I'd sure like to meet a cross-dresser who doesn't think that dresses and make-up are necessary to express their feminine identity.
Some of the responses on this thread were difficult, or even painful, but I am glad that all of you responded. Some of this I needed to hear, whether I liked it or not. I am working hard at adjusting my own head. So, thank you.
It does not help that I feel caught between Dav and his mother, who is devastated and will have a very hard time coming to terms with this. Add in my own cross dressing to the intransigent child and crying mother and the tension around here is unbelievable. I don't think I am going to get through this intact.
There has been some progress. Dav and his girlfriend are coming to dinner tomorrow. Perhaps more importantly, I managed to get my wife to dinner with a transitioned woman, who was very helpful. The really good discussion lasted three hours. But then she cried on the way home.
All of your comments were valuable, and a few needed comment.
This will resolve itself. He knows that we have always said that we would only support him through University. He knows that we are using money that would have been for our own retirement, and doesn't expect more than that. That said, we have always been a pushover for our children. His 27 year old sister "borrowed" money for rent in January.
My chance to brag a little. He is very bright and doing well in an Environmental Technology and Policy program. A paper written for one of his classes last year won a $500 prize and is being published, and he just got a job, as an undergraduate, on a federally funded research project.
I have talked to him about this. Most of the employment in this field would be in the public sector, which is probably a good thing for him. At the moment, he would like to go to grad school and wind up teaching at a University somewhere. I did it for a while and it is a great life, but he obviously is not thinking about his future financial needs.
I have a specific question about this. The transitioned TS we had dinner with said that this is one of the most powerful testosterone blockers in use, and that it could render him permanently impotent. I have searched the Internet for information and can find nothing either way. Can someone help me figure this one out?
I need to correct myself here. After looking at the benefits on our insurance, it seems that over the past 1-2 years that he has seen a psychiatrist, a licensed social worker, and a psychologist. I am not sure exactly why all of the shopping around. He did say that the social worker developed an inappropriate relationship with him. About all he would say was that it was clear he was her favorite patient.
I know. All of you are saying this. I am trying. The really odd part is that we had already made that transition. Whenever he comes home, it is always a joy to sit and discuss things as two adults. I have not felt the need for years to give unasked advice. I am confident that we will always be in each other's lives, and I know this is awkward for both of us.
I agree, and we are going to try to get him to meet with the TS woman we had dinner with. She is also part of a local support group, and we are going to urge him to get some exposure to others. It seems that the university population has lots of support for G, L, and B, but not so much for T.
Again, thanks, for your thoughts.
Liz
Spiro is effective, it does the job and is the best option available in the US but its hardly the most powerful anti androgen around. It's pretty safe which is why Drs like it.
Any anti T med will cause a reduction in sexual function wether or not one goes completely impotent is a mater of personal physiology.
I'm curious why you are concerned about this? Most TSes are at best ambivalent about their penises and more likely want nothing to do with it. It doesn't really get any more male than a hard on so the inability to get one is usually quite welcome.
It is a bit uncomfortable for Dav to discuss his sex life with his father, but I have the impression that he enjoys an active sex life with his SO. But I may have misstated my concern about spiro. What I was told was that spiro would make him permanently sterile. Sorry for using the wrong word.
Liz
The concern I interpreted as one being the possibility of irreversible sterility i.e. not just impotence but lack of sperm production. This is possible with any antiandrogen. This adverse effect would mean that IF Dav decided after time that transition was not for her then she would not be able to have her own biological children.
Liz
I don't know if a parent can ever stop wanting to "interfere" in their childrens lives to stop them from making what we perceive as a poor decision. I cannot fault you for that. However the greatest step and act of love that we can do is to let them go. There are some decisions that only they can make for themselves and this will be one of them.
Yourself and your wife particularly are grieving for the lost future you had imagined for your child. In it's place however is a new future, different but still beautiful in it's own way. Fear of the unknown is likely to be at root of your distress. Trust in your love for each other, your wife and your children, and you can conquer the fear and see joy and happiness through the sadness.
He can use Spiro for a few months and stop and regain fertility. But from what I've read/heard/been told, long term use will make him sterile. This is why the whole sperm bank thing is important. I think that there's a chance that after being on Spiro over a long period, stopping for several months may allow fertility to return, but it's not guaranteed.
Can I address this? Long term spiro use will NOT result in sterility. There are lots of guys on Spiro for blood pressure control. This is just another scare tactic.
"Run for the hills! Hormones will make you sterile! Hormones will make you sterile! No. Castration will make you sterile."
The sperm bank thing has nothing to do with spiro use. It has to do with the fact that TG women are castrated along with SRS. However, I continually fail to see why a TG WOMAN would want to keep the ability to be a father. This sounds like a pretty insecure transgender woman to me.
S
Stephanie,
This is just my personal belief stated as someone who is considering the sperm bank option if\when I transition... It is not the desire to be a father that matters to the woman, it is the desire to raise children (something that unfortunately current science does not allow people to do post-transition I sure wish it did)... Having some of your own genetic material to contribute to the process takes away a lot of the messiness of adoption for TG people who may face discrimination in the adoption process... I don't believe it is a matter of insecurity of identity at all Or at least it is not necessarily the case that one who considers this option is insecure about her identity...
Are you sure? Because transexuals generally take much higher dosages for HRT than they would take for blood pressure or water retention. And I don't believe it's the Spiro itself that causes the infertility, but the fact that after prolonged periods of high dosages, the testicles atrophy from lack of use. Do you know if the testicles return to their normal function after such atrophy?
And sperm banking isn't to keep the ability to be a father, it's to keep the ability to be a PARENT, a MOTHER, to have children of THEIR OWN. I don't know where insecurity comes from... I don't understand your statement at all...
Dear Bree,
You are absolutely correct. TG women take MASSIVE amounts of spiro compared to those who take spiro for BP control. And it may be true that prolonged periods of use MAY have some bearing on the issue. But we just don't know. In such situations it's often best to rely on things we DO know rather than speculate on things we don''t.
I am not sure how much testicles and penis actually atrophy. Again, anecdotal reports are all over the map. But it IS anecdotal only. Penis and testicular shrinking is a common buzzword around TG circles. But there does seems to be very little actual evidence about this. However, we DO know that castration results in absolute sterility.
Gatekeeping is alive and well in the TG therapeutic community. I have heard all the same things you have heard. Screaming (or just stating) that hormone therapy causes permanent sterility has not been proven and there seems to be little to no evidence to back up this statement.
Stephie
Yeah... I was trying to find out for myself at one point and couldn't find any definitive information one way or the other. But if you want to have kids and are messing with stuff that MAY cause infertility, it's probably a smart idea to save some of those little wigglers. Especially if you plan on any kind of genital surgery.
My penis hasn't atrophied, but my testicals are about half the size they used to be. I ran out of my t-blockers for two weeks and nothing really changed. But that may not have been enough time to let those parts resume function if they were capable of it. Again, all we can go by is what other people experience since there isn't enough medical documentation on this stuff.
Uh huh!
And by the way, dear, you clean up real nice!
Stephie
Strangely enough, in five months mine have been the other way around - p shrinkage, but the testes testingly have stayed about the same. Oh and my last O was almost dry. That was really weird, and very welcome actually.
Well my penis is smaller when flaccid, but that's due to a lack of blood flow. I'm thinking testosterone or something causes increased blood flow at times other than arousal. Without the T, in it's flaccid state, it has less blood flow than it used to, making it appear smaller. When erect, it is still the same size as it was before. Then again, it hurts a little when erect sometimes, like it's stretching too far. Maybe it is shrinking just a bit? (2 years on HRT)
Is this discussion getting too graphic for the open forum? It is kind of getting off topic anyway...
it seems as if he is aware of that potentiality and planing for it by banking his sperm.
Okay, thanks for all the comments about spiro. It would have been nice if everyone had agreed, but at least I learned quite a bit about it.
New question. Last night we had Dav and his SO over to dinner to discuss this sperm bank question. In the course of the conversation, Dav alleged that in his research, his penis will remain fully functional even after becoming sterile (he and his SO both seem to be fond of his organ). In particular, he said he would always be able to get erections, even it it might require the use of Viagra.
This is not my understanding. What is the experience of forum members here?
Thanks,
Liz
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