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Thread: Third Gender

  1. #1
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    Third Gender

    Hi, Guys and Girls!

    There’s currently a thread going on this forum, “Are you okay with being transgendered?”, and it has given me a lot to think about concerning where I am with my TGism—and a tip of the hat (or the wig) to Marleena for that. I’ve decided to start a new thread on this issue, because I think my remarks here might derail Marleena’s thread.

    I had an interesting experience yesterday. I went to Dublin for some shopping and also to meet a friend of mine, Deirdre, whom I originally got in contact with through an LGBT centre in Dublin. When I first contacted that centre, I gave them my real name (Annabelle) rather than that other name I’ve been saddled with all my life. Now as Deirdre and I were arranging to meet, I never bothered to give her my other name. So when we met at the centre yesterday, she greeted me as “Annabelle”, even though I was in drab, since that was the only name she had for me. And rather than making me feel awkward—this was the first time in my life that anybody had greeted me face-to-face by that name—it made me feel very nice. That’s where I am with my TGism these days.

    But it occurs to me that there is a psychological barrier that cisgender people are certainly struggling with, and I think that perhaps some of us TG’s might be struggling with it as well. This barrier is the traditional conception of the male-female divide—but I know that within me, as I come more and more to accept my TGism, that barrier is beginning to crumble.

    What I’m saying is this: I’m beginning to no longer see myself as a man, though obviously I know full well that I’m not female either. Am I a guy who has a pronounced “feminine side”, or a guy who longs to be a woman? I’m beginning to see myself as TG and nothing else. I’m very confused about a lot of things right now. One of my problems is trying to decide whether I’m male or female. If I accept that I’m just TG, for me it not only simplifies my thinking, but it also might be the correct way of thinking.

    So if someone were to ask me if I’m a man, I’d cheerfully reply (assuming that there was no social stigma attached to the statement), “No. I’m TG.” And just as men enjoy and take pride in their maleness and women enjoy and take pride in their femaleness, I’m beginning to get enjoy and take pride in my TGism. It’s me, and why should I not feel a normal human pride in what I am?

    What I’m beginning to grasp emotionally is the notion that exists/has existed in other cultures—the notion of a Third Gender (and in this post you may read “TG” as “Transgender” or “Third Gender” as you like). And I’m wondering if we TG’s aren’t making a strategic error in our thinking. Maybe I’m wrong about this, but it seems to me we TG’s are asking for the right to be male or female, according to our individual preferences, when what we should be looking for is the right to be recognized as TG.

    This notion has many implications for me. First, in all legal aspects TG would be recognized as a sex/gender along with male and female. That is, in legal documents and records people would be listed as male, female or TG, as the case might be. I believe that TG people should have the further right to be recorded as TGM or TGF, depending on how they prefer to present (or simply as TG if, for whatever reason, they don’t wish to declare a preference). This is to say that for all legal purposes I could declare myself to be "Annabelle Larousse, TGF".

    I think that in situations where a person needs to be clearly identified, as in dealings with banks or going through airport security, someone like me who declared herself as TGF would be required to present as female. But that would be no burden whatsoever on me, since that’s my preference.

    This notion of a third gender would also relieve us TG’s of a certain sort of pressure we’re under. Right now a lot of us feel the need “to pass”—either as male or female, depending on the individual case. But as a TGF, I’m no longer under any pressure to pass as female—because I’m not female. I’m TGF. And that means that I have the right to define my femininity for myself, in the same way that a GG has the right to define her femininity for herself. TGM’s would have the right to define their masculinity for themselves, just as GM’s have the right to define their masculinity for themselves. That is, I would not be under pressure to conform to some standard of womanhood established by others. I’m not a woman and I don’t have to try to be one. I’m TGF, and I decide what that means to me and how I wish to express it.

    GG’s often ask us, “What do you know about what it’s like to be a woman?” And they’re right—we don’t know anything about it. But we don’t have to know anything about it. We can turn the question around and ask, “What do you know about what it’s like to be TGF?” My presentation of my TGism is the expression of myself and my nature, not of anyone else’s.

    I believe what I would do is get a necklace made with a pendant that would be the symbol of my TGism. I believe I’d choose the combined Mars-Venus symbols, as in this forum’s logo. I’d wear that necklace everywhere, so that if anyone harassed me as “a man in a dress” or asked me if I really thought I could be a woman, I could just say, “Look at my necklace, eejit! I’m not a man or a woman. I’m TGF.”

    For cisgenders, the removal of this psychological barrier would put to rest problems such as the one encountered recently by that Tennessee senator who hasn’t yet realized that the human race has left the Stone Age—the one who declared he would stomp to a pulp any man who thinks he’s a woman and who tries to use the women’s loo. “My good sir, I don’t think I’m a woman. Look at my necklace. I know exactly what I am—TGF. I’m using this loo because I present as female, and therefore this one is the more appropriate of the two. If you want to build another loo for us TGF’s, and another one for the TGM’s, go ahead. But don’t tell me to use the men’s because you think I’m a man. I’m not a man. I’m TGF.” Even vintage Stone Agers might have the intellectual power to grasp the notion of three, rather than two.

    Within our own circles, this notion might help put an end to certain prejudices we hold—e.g., against those men who CD without making any effort to pass as women, to the point that they don’t even shave or wear a wig. Their presentation as TG’s is a blend of the male and female—and after all, isn’t that kind of what TGism is? None of us would any longer be under pressure to present as anything. We would all express our TGism as we saw fit and without prejudice.

    And think how wonderful it would have been, if at about the age of 12 or 13 I had been taken to see a psychologist from a state health agency who explained to me, “Up to now you been recognized as male because that matches your outward appearance. From now on, however, you’ll be correctly recognized as TG.” And he/she would have explained to me what TGism was, would have helped me to understand myself and would have informed me that I could call myself anything I wanted and could present in any way I wanted. Just as a male or female has the right to decide on their lifestyles for themselves, I as a TG person would have the right to decide on my lifestyle. I would no longer have been under any pressure to try to be something I wasn’t—though my parents would have been under considerable pressure to buy me as many pretty dresses as my sister had.

    I see many advantages in moving away from this notion of two. We TG’s wouldn’t have to try to emulate either of the other sexes. There would of course be many questions that would have to be addressed. E.g., would someone who fully transitions be regarded as male or female, or would they continue to be regarded as TGM or TGF? That’s a question on which those who have transitioned should be consulted. There will always be difficulties with TGism because it is a difficult thing. But I’m getting to the point where I’m no longer regarding myself as a man. I’m TG, the Big Number Three, and I’m becoming more and more comfortable with that notion. I’m not a degenerate brand of man, nor am I a wannabe woman who will never make the grade. I’m TG, the Big Number Three, and what you see is what you get. But of course with us TG’s, you never know what you’re going to see. God, we’re fabulous!

    Best wishes, Annabelle
    Last edited by Foxglove; 03-24-2012 at 04:31 AM.

  2. #2
    Member larry07's Avatar
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    Interesting thoughts. I would probably stick with TG and not refine it further to TGF or TGM. I prefer not to emulate either M or F, but to mix it up between the two.

  3. #3
    Silver Member STACY B's Avatar
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    UK ,,, OH,,, GUESS what I have an idea ,, Just say that Girl is 1st an Boy ie 2nd ,, Well here we go ,, 1st thats when im feeling naughty an lady like an proper an want to go shopping an get my nails done an hair done , an get some clothes an shoes Ahhhhhh man outta monet 2nd back to work get dirty an sweaty an do a bunch of stuff that I done want to do but im broke an just want those shoes opps 1st thinking about shoes an clothes ,,,what wait ,,, 2nd back to bizz gotta consontrate work ,,, work,, dont think about it dont think about those ,,,,,1st heels that I want an what can I wear with em if I do buy em ,,noo,,no,,2nd work dummy dont think about that rite now just think about shoes 1st dammit 2nd work ,,, make some money work,,, 1st ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,come leave me alone till I get done ,,,,, come onnnnnnnn 1st,,,,1st,,,,2nd,,,noooo1st OK U WIN ... A glimps into my MIND !!!! 1st !!!!! MOSTLY !
    Yull Find Out !!! lol,,,,

  4. #4
    Gold Member Cynthia Anne's Avatar
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    Ok ok Annabelle! You have convince me! Now your mission is to convince the rest of the world and make it a universal law! If you so accept this mission please keep us inform on the progress you're making! Thank you! Hugs!
    If you don't like the way I'm livin', you just leave this long haired country girl alone:

  5. #5
    Girl Inside Jeanna's Avatar
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    3rd - the confused gender

    Quote Originally Posted by STACY B View Post
    UK ,,, OH,,, GUESS what I have an idea ,, Just say that Girl is 1st an Boy ie 2nd ,, Well here we go ,, 1st thats when im feeling naughty an lady like an proper an want to go shopping an get my nails done an hair done , an get some clothes an shoes Ahhhhhh man outta monet 2nd back to work get dirty an sweaty an do a bunch of stuff that I done want to do but im broke an just want those shoes opps 1st thinking about shoes an clothes ,,,what wait ,,, 2nd back to bizz gotta consontrate work ,,, work,, dont think about it dont think about those ,,,,,1st heels that I want an what can I wear with em if I do buy em ,,noo,,no,,2nd work dummy dont think about that rite now just think about shoes 1st dammit 2nd work ,,, make some money work,,, 1st ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,come leave me alone till I get done ,,,,, come onnnnnnnn 1st,,,,1st,,,,2nd,,,noooo1st OK U WIN ... A glimps into my MIND !!!! 1st !!!!! MOSTLY !
    ,,,and it keeps revolving in my sick little mind too,,..nooooo it's normal,,,ok 1st you got me this time but next time I'll stand up to you after you buy me those pink heels!

  6. #6
    Member Contessa's Avatar
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    Yes I am convinced too. I suppose I was there all along, before you started typing. This morning on Sat, I now am TG sometimes F and sometimes M. I will add to my signature this.

    Annabelle if we go forth the notion that we need to make law, then lets go girl. Maybe just saying you are is enough.

    In my progression I felt the difference and now I am sure. There will be most that don't feel this way and that is fine cause I don't have to change anything. Now I know why my closet looks like it does.

    Tess
    [COLOR="blue"]Contessa Marie D

    I'm TG. A fem-male so I look male sometimes.

    Dressing is necessary, the type of clothes you wear not so much.

    This above all to thy own self be true!

  7. #7
    Silver Member noeleena's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Okay some of us are intersexed so in some ways we could be refered to as third gender, i dont ,& im not sureof others many of those i know on 3 other forums dont use it , here we dont, & we dont use being trans or dressers .

    One reason being we think differently to dressers & trans , thats not a issue ether, for some of us our bodys are different & it can be confusing as well for some,.

    As to passing as ether, i dont & to tell the truth im not bothered its about being accepted for who you are as a person not what clothes you wear .

    Iv just come back from a evening as of now , we had 400 people mixed & children for our Multicultural = Race relastions group . had a sit down pot luck meal .
    Now im well known as im doing the photography & have done & this is my 3 rd time 3rd year , I had Jos our daughter & her 4 kids with us ,

    Im in front i wellcome people i get to know them talk a lot with them & do my photos .

    so quite a few come over from Tonga & the islands who i know & we say hi & talk to when i meet up with them down the street while they are here working for 3 months of the year,

    What im trying to impress on people is they accept me the way i am, yes i dress in my female clothes yet do i look like a female youd have to ask them , they ......dont care.....we give each other a hug when we meet .

    We can lable our selfs till dooms day call our selfs what ever does it really matter. well in this case not as far as those 400 people are concerned thats for sure, you see what im getting at, if my acceptance was based on how i look or my voice or my facial features then i would not be accepted for who i am they look beyound what i dont look like , & accept my self reguardless, yes im a mix of both male & female . so what im still accepted,

    Accept your self.... be.... who you are , im doing that & you know what it works well its proved so many times for myself .

    Im a member of women only groups & world wide, those who know me in our groups is over 1000 people,
    Its about being accepted,

    ...noeleena...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynthia Anne View Post
    Now your mission is to convince the rest of the world and make it a universal law!
    Well, I don't if I can do it this weekend, since I'm kind of busy. But it's definitely on my To-do List.

    My post is to a certain extent just speculation. What if we were recognized as a Third Gender? I think that would be to our advantage (any sort of recognition would be to our advantage). But mainly, emotionally, I'm beginning to feel separate from others. It's a deep down sort of identity, not just a set of superficial things that I do, such as CDing.

    Yesterday, when I met my friend Deirdre, it really came home to me. She's the first Trans-woman I've ever met face-to-face, and it really struck me: we're different from them. Yes, there are all sorts of varieties of TG people, but yesterday I felt very starkly a fundamental difference between "us" and "them". I felt a special affinity for Deirdre in a way that I've never felt for anyone before.

    How well what I'm saying here can be justified intellectually, I don't know, and I think there are all sorts of problems with what I've written in my OP. But I'm talking about what I feel. And more and more I'm beginning to feel like I belong to a third group. Maybe my thinking will become clearer as my feelings do.

    Annabelle

  9. #9
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    Transgender

    Am I transgender? Probably but it would be hard to prove medically. Psychologically the proof is a bit easier but there are few "hard" tests or rules in the field of psychology. A MD can easily test for high blood sugar but no similar test exists for "transgender spectrum". The same problem exists in children with a definition of "Autism Spectrum disorder". Intersex is a different issue entirely and that is medically more easily recognized.

    Do I mind being considered "transgender"; no. Will society in general accept that; probably not now but maybe sometime. Attitudes change over time. Think interracial marriage as an example. It was illegal in many states until the Supreme Court ruled in the "Virginia vs Loving" case in 1967. That ruling didn't guarantee "acceptance" but time has changed opinions. The topic of Gay Marriage is presently following this evolutionary path.

    What to do? Probably the best thing we as TGs can do is be ourselves, be polite and be willing to state our views firmly. Acting within the political system by working to get laws changed to represent our views is also probably good too. It is a slow process with no guarantee of success but it has been shown to work.

    Anybody who wants to may call me Sandra, or Sandy, in public anytime.

    Love to all,
    Sandra1746
    Last edited by Sandra1746; 03-24-2012 at 07:58 AM. Reason: addition

  10. #10
    Senior Member Laura912's Avatar
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    My first reaction is that the labels do not matter because the nasties will use their own label and the others probably just do not care. But to have a public discussion beyond this site, then a label with proper definition would help those who are truly interested in learning more about "us." I wonder just how many people that really encompasses?

  11. #11
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Great thread Annabelle!

    My mind immediately went to the earthworm! Why? Because they can truly change sexes, male or female. Can you imagine saying here my turn to receive! It makes me wonder how they decide though, do they flip a coin? lol.

    We are all looking for answers and this third gender idea has come up before. The big flaw with it is in the animal kingdom there is only male and female although some swing both ways.

    I think if somebody came out today and said "hey there is a third gender!". Everybody would say WTF?

    The transgender umbrella is likely to stay as it makes things much neater. Just my opinion.

  12. #12
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    http://native-americans-of-the-south...twospirits.htm

    Wiser people than we have always considered that gender was not a static or fixed thing.
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
    Chief Joseph
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    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marleena View Post
    I think if somebody came out today and said "hey there is a third gender!". Everybody would say WTF?

    The transgender umbrella is likely to stay as it makes things much neater. Just my opinion.
    If TG were accepted as a third gender, it would still be an umbrella term. There's a lot of variation among TG people today, and there always will be. We're an unruly lot.

  14. #14
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post
    If TG were accepted as a third gender, it would still be an umbrella term. There's a lot of variation among TG people today, and there always will be. We're an unruly lot.
    Yeah we confuse the hell out of everybody.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marleena View Post
    Yeah we confuse the hell out of everybody.
    Especially ourselves.

  16. #16
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post
    Especially ourselves.
    That is so true!! Who do I want to be today? lol.

  17. #17
    A Brave Freestyler JohnH's Avatar
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    One thing I can think of - what businesses need to do is to modify men's restrooms so that the urinals would be walled off from the general area and stalls would be made more private. That way genetic women and transgendered individuals could use the the restroom.

    On M2F HRT my body is gradually assuming a more feminine shape. However, I don't think I will raise the pitch of my basso speaking voice. That way I could look like Dolly Parton but sound like Johnny Cash! (Well, not quite like Dolly - but with decent sized breasts and an hourglass figure nonetheless.)

    Johanna
    John (Legal name)

    Preferred pronouns: he, his, him

  18. #18
    Member Lyric's Avatar
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    I wouldn't state a number when counting genders. That could start a whole other discussion. I know very much what you mean, though. I knew I wasn't ever going to be a "Man" man early in life. In recent years I've felt very much that what I am seems more like a separate gender, a "cross-sexual" perhaps. In fact I've used that term to describe myself before. I will always dispute those who write all crossdressers off as perverted "fetishists". The problem is that with so little (and such varied) social definition of who we are, few of us even feel clear about it ourselves. So you can't really expect others to fully understand, either. Add to that the fact that "crossdresser" really only describes one's wardrobe habits and there can be a variety of different types of individuals who fall under that category.

    Still, there is very much an increase in public interest and acceptance going on. I love the success of fashion models like Andrej Pejic. I recently ran across a YouTube video featuring nothing but a teenage boy putting on makeup, a wig and a dress. That video received over 1.5 million views in only 2 days. That's a whole lot of public interest.

    Lyric

  19. #19
    Aspiring Member Dawn cd's Avatar
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    I see where you're going with this, but I think the notion of a distinct third gender just complicates things. Will we have Men's, Women's and Third Gender restrooms? Will state legislatures have to approve marriages between men and Third Genders, or women and Third Genders? Why don't we just admit that in practice gender tends to be rather fluid? Because I don't believe I fit neatly into your Third Gender. I'm probably 2.5.

  20. #20
    Platinum Member Shelly Preston's Avatar
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    Recently I had reason to complete a survey

    This was from the local police asking about the service they provide and is it up to an expected standard and were they doing everything they can.

    However they did ask for some personal information.

    One question was a real big surprise

    Do you or have you ever identified as Transgender

    It would seem we are making some progress even if we are not perceived as a third gender
    Shelly

    Super Moderator....How to tell your partner......Abbreviations

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn cd View Post
    I see where you're going with this, but I think the notion of a distinct third gender just complicates things.
    Yes, I agree it complicates things, but I think that's good if things are too simple. And I'm beginning to feel things are too simple. I'm certainly not a man like most, and I'm not a "woman" like any. So what exactly am I? I'm beginning to feel that I'm TG, which is distinct from male and female.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn cd View Post
    Will we have Men's, Women's and Third Gender restrooms? Will state legislatures have to approve marriages between men and Third Genders, or women and Third Genders?
    I don't know. It's questions like this that would have to be resolved (and I have every confidence that state legislatures will resolve them competently). It's what legislators are paid to do. Let them earn their pay.

    But the point here is to make certain people (us) happier. If it makes things a bit more complicated that's fine with me, because how happy are all of us when people try to fit us into the male/female scheme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn cd View Post
    Why don't we just admit that in practice gender tends to be rather fluid? Because I don't believe I fit neatly into your Third Gender. I'm probably 2.5.
    That's exactly what I'm doing, Dawn--recognizing that gender is more fluid than the traditional male/female scheme. If you don't fit into "my" Third Gender (it's not really mine), you're probably better off.

    Best wishes, Annabelle

  22. #22
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Gender doesn't feel fluid at all to me... and i bet the vast majority of transsexuals would say the same thing...

    I admit bias based on my own life, and lots of experience counseling tg and ts people...

    cisgender people have no ability to comprehend what its like to be transsexual (non cisgender)....that includes crossdressing guys...this is often the cause of many conflicts imho...

    i wonder if as a "uni" gendered person, i have no ability to comprehend what it's like to be "bi/multi" gendered...

    but from my observations , being really really into your femme side does not make you multi gendered... being really sick and tired of all the male bs doesnt make you "not a man"...having lots of feminine traits has absolutely nothing to do with your gender
    it is deeper than that... In

    my own personal experience (which has btw been borne out in my life through many people) i've found that people that say they are bi gendered are either very into messing around sexually as a guy in femme mode, or ts in denial that suffer through years and years of frustration, fear and dysphoria because they just can't face the reality of their gender situation..

    So I have a hard time thinking gender is fluid...
    I think its more about personal self acceptance, and the pleasure/escape/release people get from presenting AND thinking of themselves as the opposite gender..

  23. #23
    Aspiring Member elizabethamy's Avatar
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    Imagine you're a judge: Annabelle's case is powerful and beautifully presented. Yet, as others say, there are indeed only two genders in nature, at least physically. And Kaitlyn Michelle speaks the opposite of Annabelle, from a place of experience and power.

    This is why courts decide things 3-2 and 5-4. Wow. What an interesting thread.

    elizabethamy

  24. #24
    The Art of Heels Kristyn Hill's Avatar
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    Interesting reads for sure.
    I am an Artist working in all Mediums including Sexy

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn cd View Post
    I see where you're going with this, but I think the notion of a distinct third gender just complicates things. Will we have Men's, Women's and Third Gender restrooms? Will state legislatures have to approve marriages between men and Third Genders, or women and Third Genders? Why don't we just admit that in practice gender tends to be rather fluid? Because I don't believe I fit neatly into your Third Gender. I'm probably 2.5.
    I think Annabelle pretty much addressed the public-restroom issue by basing the choice on presentation, which makes a lot of sense theoretically as well as pragmatically. In fact, it's what most of us who do go out more than a little have usually done. If a using an inappropriate facility can be considered disorderly conduct (the usual catchall criminal category), it's plainly more disorderly for a male (concealed genetic and genital category) presenting as a woman (social category) to use the men's room. In my considerable experience, it's never been a problem.

    As for marriage, I don't see any reason why, with marriage equality, all restrictions save underage, involuntary, or less-than-sane wouldn't simply go away. After all, if it's "same-sex" marriage that's at issue, male, female, or intersexed shouldn't make a difference. Right now, the debate is whether unambiguous males or females can marry the same as well as the opposite. It follows logically that sex-ambiguous and gender-ambiguous individuals should have the same freedom to choose. There is a side issue in same-sex marriage, the status of fully transitioned TS's; that too would become moot with marriage equality.

    Finally, I agree completely with your point about gender fluidity. I personally prefer the term "intergendered", analogously to "intersexed", to express my condition. There is a binary, and I'm somewhere in between, but not at some fixed point. One can be intergendered near the male binary pole or near the female binary pole, and many, like me, have a fairly broad range within which we express gender. That's my main conceptual difficulty with the "trans-" terminology: it reinforces the binary by presuming a void, a no-person's-land, between genders that can only be transgressed, not occupied.

    My own life experience makes me rebel against having to choose between two mutually exclusive boxes or be disregarded as not authentically human.
    Last edited by Acastina; 03-24-2012 at 01:04 PM.

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