Victor Borge said it years ago.
"There are three sexes in Denmark, male,female and convertible."
Ref: Coronet LP Caught in the Act.
Victor Borge said it years ago.
"There are three sexes in Denmark, male,female and convertible."
Ref: Coronet LP Caught in the Act.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Having re-read some of these recent posts, I get the feeling that some of us are beginning to talk about different things--most of the difficulty here revolving around this word "fluid".
From her quote above, I believe that Lorileah is using the word in the same sense that I am. When I say that "gender expression is fluid", I'm looking at things from a societal standpoint. That is, our society has a traditional view that there are only two genders and two different sorts of gender expressions. For me, this is simplistic and untrue. There is ground occupied by TG's that doesn't fit into the traditional scheme. Furthermore, we TG's are a motley group, and it's not at all easy to classify us. Therefore, viewing the situation "from above", on the level of society as a whole, there is some unsteady ground in the middle. This is what I mean by a "fluid" situation.
But Dawn and Kaitlyn may be looking at things from an individual point of view. That is, they're raising the question as to whether an individual's gender expression can be fluid.
Now I don't want to put words in these three girls' mouths. I'll confess I'm not exactly sure what they're saying, and I may have misunderstood. If they want to clarify and correct me, they're welcome to do so. At any rate, I feel we're saying two different things because we're looking at the question from different angles.
Also, I'll clarify something that I probably didn't make explicit enough in my OP. I do see a significant difference between those people who have transitioned and those of us who haven't. The former's experience, I believe, is significantly different from ours, and it may be that the only factor we have in common is that we all raise questions relating to our sex and gender. How do those who have transitioned perceive themselves and their experience? I say nothing about that, but leave it to them. Which is why I believe that in my "utopia" where TG people are given recognition as a Third Gender, exactly how those who have transitioned would fit into any legislation being devised would need to be determined by their views, not by anyone else's.
Also, I hope that people will understand here that I'm not trying to draw up some kind of grand scheme for the re-ordering of society. I'm simply stating that I'm beginning to feel, on a deep level, that I'm different, that I don't fit into the simplistic, traditional scheme that society has erected. I feel I belong in a different group altogether. What exactly are the implications for myself and society, I'm not at all sure at this time.
This is what I was driving at in my OP. I'm beginning to feel my difference at a very deep level. I used to perceive myself as a man who had a very shameful perversion. I no longer consider myself either shameful or perverted. I'm beginning to feel that I am what I am, and what I am is different. My behavior, e.g., my CDing is only a manifestation of my nature. I'm beginning, I think, to get a glimpse of my nature at a deeper level, and that glimpse is precisely what is leading me to believe that I belong to a different group besides male and female.
Despite the significant differences among those of us who are classed as "TG", I think at bottom we share many similarities that outweigh our differences. That's why we can all get together on a forum like this--albeit with considerable squabbling and mutual recriminations at times. That's why I myself tend to group all of us together in my thinking. But of course other people's thinking may be different.
Best wishes, Annabelle
Establishing a 'third' gender could help in pushing understanding and acceptance towards an ideal where gender would be recognized as individual and a continuum.
Yes. This is why the idea is important to me. It emphasizes that we're not just confused and misled men and women, but rather something totally different that people need to get to grips with.
In my opinion the third gender is the result of becoming less animal like, not just a part of nature but something else. Think about extreme forms of masculinity, it is very war like and based on the values born in nature (survival instinct).
There is a absence of sensitivity, gentleness,compassion,empathy,respect for life,love. All the higher forms of thinking. Extreme forms of masculinity and femininity equal violence because they are expressions of a cunning animal not a spiritual being.
The third gender is a evolutionary necessity, it was destined to be by design to help others out of the darkness of are animal roots. Transgendered are the tip of the arrow that the shaft of humanity will follow eventually, all spirituality has been born from this because true spirituality transcends the limits of the physical animal we are housed in and those who hold both female and male in one mind become conduits for higher awareness. It is a curse because it sets you apart from others but a blessing because it offers opportunity for enlightenment.
Everything in the human drama is about the tension between human animal and the spirit that resides inside. We are not just woman trapped in male bodies we are spirit trapped in animal bodies. The problem is two-fold and this is why the transgendered have always been with us and always will and their numbers must increase by design. Eventually everyone will be a third gender, the whole world is trying to escape the limits imposed on them because of their biological sex in one form or another.
Why can't we just be Crossdressers that says it all.
Having my ears triple pierced is AWESOME, ~~......
I can explain it to you, But I can't comprehend it for you !
If at first you don't succeed, Then Skydiving isn't for you.
Be careful what you wish for, Once you ring a bell , you just can't Un-Ring it !! !!
I use to think of myself as 3G ( third Gender) which in one sense sounds like a fixed state ,nether one or the other where as Transgendered sounds like you are a mix of both genders , not sure which would be most suitable in explaining what i am .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Joanne
We all have this problem--what term to use. I've done some chopping and changing myself. And whichever term we use, it's not going to explain what we are, any more than the term "woman" will come close to saying all there is to say about a given woman.
The point I'm raising is, are we justified in regarding ourselves as a third gender distinct from male and female. If so, and if society as a whole agreed with us, then we'd adopt (or be given) a name that would be inadequate for various reasons. But it's not the term itself that interests me. It's whether we can be regarded as a distinct gender.
The reason I prefer to think that we are is this: there are members of this forum who are happy to declare themselves "men who like to wear dresses". But I don't feel that way myself. For me, it's more like this:
"Why do you like to wear dresses?"
"That's just the way I am. It's in my nature. I'm TG."
"But you're a man! You're not supposed to want to wear them!"
"That's just the point. I'm not a man. I'm TG."
This is the way I feel about things now. I'm coming to see myself as something truly distinct from the vast majority. But I speak only for myself, of course. Others perceive themselves differently.
Annabelle
I know exactly what you mean , the problem is others see us for what we look like on the out side where as we see us for what we feel on the inside, maybe we should have been born with blue skin or something, that would stop any confusion
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Joanne
ps
I'm also curious on how you mean intersexed. Is that a psychological state? or are we talking here of biological status of being a hermaphrodite?
I've made comments interspersed in your text
Last edited by busker; 03-24-2012 at 08:19 PM.
One need only take a look at some threads here to see just a sampling of the opposition this idea would face. I am not in any way saying this is a bad idea, in fact I think it would be an ideal, however there are so many that are hopelessly entrenched in the two gender Idea that they cannot understand the idea that sex and gender are both separate and on a continuum.
Frankly I just wish the intersexed condition was the norm and not the exception, I think sexism would go the hell away or possibly not even exist. But if you look around, you will find people that just cannot see there being a third gender, not even members here.
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
What's a third gender? Does that mean there's this additional kind of chromosome or sexual organ? I feel like this is camparing baseball to cricket.
I'm happy with being gender fluid, it's an enhancement of my personality. In fact, gender is meaningless to me, why are we a gender anyway? Crossdressing just makes me feel like some dude in a dress.
Natalie, you need to read the OP.
YOu just described one aspect of the idea. Though in reality a third gender is someone that is intersexed and has no "corrective surgery".
"I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.
Hello, Busker! I have to admit I’m not sure what the drift of your post is. At times it seems you’re agreeing with me only then to go on to indicate that you think I’m mistaken. E.g., I said,
That is, our society has a traditional view that there are only two genders and two different sorts of gender expressions . . .
To which you replied,
Isn't that the point--you are pitting yourself against "society" and for them you don't conform. society as a group could care less how many genders you might think there are. As a group, society is conformist even in its oddities or dress or whatever. millions of women wear leggings, millions of guys guys go to football games.
And I’m not sure what the point of that is. “I’m pitting myself against society.” Perhaps. What I said was that I’m beginning to feel a certain distance between myself and other people. So am I pitting myself against them, or was I always pitted against them and am just now starting to perceive it? I don’t know. Maybe I’ll think about that.
And yes, I’m aware that people can often be conformist, and that a lot of them don’t care what I think. I do factor that into my thinking. But I just can’t see what this has to do with my OP.
And then you said,
Expecting society to change in any real way in this century is madness. everything that is now done in the name of gender is done via legislation--not that all men/women are born equal. In an equal society, it is a given that there are differences that we all accept. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.--legislation doesn't really change how people think about something, it just forces them to accept the law. Hate crimes exist despite the laws against them.
I’d say that expecting society to change any time soon to accommodate us TG’s is very optimistic, maybe even unrealistically so, but it’s certainly not madness. The position of racial minorities in the US is much better now than it was in my youth. Not perfect: change is slow, but it does occur. And true, legislation doesn’t change how people think, but as people change the way they think, legislation often changes to reflect that. And yes, legislation forces people to accept the law, even if they don’t want to; and yes, hate crimes exist despite the laws against them. But if someone who dislikes me refrains from assaulting me because they fear the law, I’d prefer that they accepted me, but if they don’t, I’ll content myself with the fact that they’re not actually assaulting me. And if a hate crime is committed, it can be punished. Better that, than letting it go unchallenged and unpunished.
Then I said,
I feel I belong in a different group altogether.
To which you replied,
This is strictly your mental construct. It could very well be a rationalization for just perceiving yourself as different.
Well, yes, my feeling is “my mental construct”, if you want to put it that way. That’s kind of what feelings are. And do I need a “rationalization” for perceiving myself as different? I’m coming to perceive myself as fundamentally different from others. I feel different, I say so. Where’s the rationalization?
And then you conclude (with my replies in between),
The only person that needs to accept your gender feelings is you. If you wish to present to society as something other than a male, that will be at your own risk of acceptance, which will not likely be forthcoming. [Yes, I realize other people might not accept me. But if they did, they’d be better people, and my life would be happier. In that sense, they “need” to accept me.]
Isn't it better to "live in one's head peacefully" than try to live among to Neandethals in the open? [That’s your opinion. Others disagree. I’m not sure what I think about that at the moment.]
I think focusing on what we do in life, is more important than how we seem to be in doing it. Focusing constantly on "specialness" distracts from living and doing. [Focusing on specialness will change my perception of myself. E.g., I used to think of myself as a guy with a disgusting and shameful perversion. I’ve changed my mind now. Which means I’ll probably change the way I live. I’m not distracting myself from living—I’m deciding how I want to live.]
fine, you are different, the rest of us are different, and then what? [We get on with living in the way we see fit.]
Finally, you asked,
I'm also curious on how you mean intersexed. Is that a psychological state? or are we talking here of biological status of being a hermaphrodite?
I didn’t say anything about “intersexed” and have no thoughts to offer on that subject right now.
Best wishes, Annabelle
I have just had this horrible thought , if i ask myself the question " what gender am i" i come up with a simple answer " I DON`T KNOW, so rather than having the chromosome that makes me feel like one or the other gender i am in this middle space , unable to tell you , so 3G or TG will work for me as it sounds a lot better than I DON`T KNOW if someone ask`s me what gender are you
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Joanne
That's kind of the way I feel about things right now. But I don't see any need to panic. Again, the actual term we use is of little importance. What's important is what's actually going on inside us and how we perceive those things. It's all of that I'm trying to figure out at the moment.I have just had this horrible thought , if i ask myself the question " what gender am i" i come up with a simple answer " I DON`T KNOW, so rather than having the chromosome that makes me feel like one or the other gender i am in this middle space , unable to tell you , so 3G or TG will work for me as it sounds a lot better than I DON`T KNOW if someone ask`s me what gender are you
If someone asked me what gender I am, I could say, "TG," or "Undecided" or whatever, and they'd probably reply, "You're one misled and sick individual," and then I'd feel right at home again.
By the way, it's occurred to me that if TGism were accepted as a third sex/gender, then at a stroke any form of discrimination in the US would become illegal, given that the constitution forbids discrimination on the basis of one's sex (the 14th Amendment?). I think that would be a positive development.
Best wishes, Annabelle
I have to agree with Joanne. I dont know. I am a man, and will feel that til the day i cease breathing, but i also have a deeply ingrained feminine side that seems to be the controlling factor in my being. i am not sure that I can call up one side or the other depending on my mood any more. In my day to day existence I am a confused young girl being exposed to the hard rigors of real life, and not sure if I like real life. I do so enjoy my sheltered existence as Babes. Can i continue this dual persona i do not know, I do know that my female persona is the strongest of the two at the present time.
Babes
He (she) who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance.
- Friedrich Nietzche -
I may never get to fly like the other girls, but I do so want to dance, so I continue to climb.
The problem with third gender is that it's really a "non gender"...
There is no third gender...there are either two genders or infinite genders..
If you are solid with yourself, then its not an issue, and you can say that labels are irrelevant and to you they are!! A good thing for your happiness and mental health...
Otherwise you are stuck in your own head, thinking of yourself as something that doesn't really resonate with your (or others) day to day life...
your gender goes to every human interaction.....there is no nuance or subtlety to it.. if you see a person, you register their gender at the deepest levels of your brain, and there is no subtlety to it..its primal...it's instinct..and there is no instinct that registers "other" when people interact with you.
I'm not saying a person can't present "queer" or can't possibly think of themselves as mixed gender......what i'm saying is that there is no way to have a 3rd gender be reflected back at you without actually telling people or wearing a sign...
When you dress female you are hopefully perceived and treated as female..at all other times you are perceived as male.....
Kaitlyn Michelle, I think you are right...something primal about the two-gender situation, which is why it's going to be very hard to overcome, no matter how willful and determined the "third gender" people are. hmmm. this, of course, presents a gigantic problem for those in the middle, which is why they (we) are stressed out about it!
elizabethamy
Yes i expect that you are right in most of that but there is one thing that might slightly tip the scales in confusing people and that is when you dress and act in an androgynous way , quite often people will look twice at you because they are not sure , but as you say how often do you actually need a label.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Joanne
Much of the difficulty in reaching an understanding about a subject such as this has to do with the evolution of language, specifically in this case, the English language. The words sex and gender each have a very basic fundamental meaning, and each have been broadened in scope and their meanings have been shifted away from that basic premise.
Webster's dictionary defines sex as: 1: either the female or the male division of a species, esp. as differentiated by reproductive function. 2: the structural and functional differences by which the female and male are distinguished. 3: sexual intercourse.
Gender is defined as: 1: a set of grammatical categories applied to nouns, as masculine, feminine or neuter, often correlated in part with sex or animateness. 2: sex.
Over time, usage has taken the word sex away from its primary and even secondary meanings, while elevating the importance of the third meaning. At the same time, the primary meaning of gender has been all but lost, as it has taken over much of the former function of the word sex. The inclusion of these last meanings in the dictionary definitions is simply a reflection of this change in common usage.
Getting back to basics, there are two sexes, male and female. While various conditions exist in life, (chromosomal anomalies, ambiguous or duplicate genitalia, etc.) they are very much in a minority and represent an abnormality rather than a third sex. On the other hand, there is no such thing as gender, except for the culturally contrived qualities imposed upon "things". These are considered to be masculine if they are similar to the qualities that a given society deems to be desirable in a male, feminine if they are similar to the qualities deemed to be desirable in a female and neuter if they are deemed to be applicable to either or both male and female, or to neither. Most societies have always taken this superficial gender differentiation to the extreme, by creating stereotypes for male and female human beings, that are applicable to our behaviour, appearance, mannerisms and so on. In doing so they go far beyond the simple "la" vs "le" grammatical distinction found in the French language for example.
We have reached a point where the term gender has taken on much of the meaning of the word sex, and the two are now considered by many to be interchangeable, which is a distortion of the historical context and their true meanings. Many people, especially those in this community, are aware of the fact that there is a difference between the two terms, and that gender means something other than our genitalia. We often hear it said that gender exists between our ears, rather than between our legs. However, what exists between our ears is our brain, and thus our consciousness. Everybody is different. Physically, that difference means that we can visibly distinguish one from another, despite the fact that we all have two arms, legs, eyes, ears, etc. but one nose, mouth and on and on. In a similar vein, we are all mentally different, and can be recognized by our personality, emotionality, intelligence etc. by those who know us. This often forms a larger part of how people describe us, than our simple physical differences.
The fact that some of us happen to crossdress is no different than the fact that some of us are musically inclined, or like to build model railways, or watch birds. Something within us has led us in that direction. It forms a part of our basic personality. There may be some aspects of the female to which we are attracted or drawn, which could lead us to want to occasionally emulate the female, or in more extreme cases, become a female. These could be a matter of their personality, their role in life, their appearance as dictated by society and fashion or anything else we see. Those same female aspects may not even be apparent to others, including crossdressers, who might see something entirely different. It is our own perspective that is driving us.
This is totally unrelated to "gender", however, as that is simply a stereotype formed by a society and culture that has concluded that certain qualities are masculine, feminine or neutral. None of us fit that stereotype exactly and some might say that we are all somewhere on a spectrum between masculine and feminine. However, our differences are so numerous and multi-directional, that it can be argued that there is no actual spectrum, as there are no defineable extremes. Even if there were a spectrum, it is between two fictitious concepts: masculinity and femininity.
Others differ in their opinions, and that is good, because it proves the very point I am making. We are all different. For me, gender does not exist, and therefore I do not support any terminology that incorporates the word gender, such as transgender or cisgender. As related to this topic, I cannot subscribe to a third gender argument, as we do not have a first or second gender. There are men and women, but there is no typical man or woman.
Veronica
[QUOTE=Annabelle Larousse;2794215]Hello, Busker! I have to admit I’m not sure what the drift of your post is. At times it seems you’re agreeing with me only then to go on to indicate that you think I’m mistaken. E.g., I said,
That is, our society has a traditional view that there are only two genders and two different sorts of gender expressions . . .
To which you replied,
Isn't that the point--you are pitting yourself against "society" and for them you don't conform. society as a group could care less how many genders you might think there are. As a group, society is conformist even in its oddities or dress or whatever. millions of women wear leggings, millions of guys guys go to football games.
And I’m not sure what the point of that is. “I’m pitting myself against society.” Perhaps. What I said was that I’m beginning to feel a certain distance between myself and other people. So am I pitting myself against them, or was I always pitted against them and am just now starting to perceive it? I don’t know. Maybe I’ll think about that.
And yes, I’m aware that people can often be conformist, and that a lot of them don’t care what I think. I do factor that into my thinking. But I just can’t see what this has to do with my OP. I I guess I was trying to say that in conformity, people are only going to see 2 genders, so adding a third to the mix is probably going to cause more confusion than not. Besides, there are already 3 genders if one adds in hermaphrodite, and maybe even men with gynecomastia could be a 4th--I don't know.
And then you said,
Expecting society to change in any real way in this century is madness. everything that is now done in the name of gender is done via legislation--not that all men/women are born equal. In an equal society, it is a given that there are differences that we all accept. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.--legislation doesn't really change how people think about something, it just forces them to accept the law. Hate crimes exist despite the laws against them.
I’d say that expecting society to change any time soon to accommodate us TG’s is very optimistic, maybe even unrealistically so, but it’s certainly not madness. The position of racial minorities in the US is much better now than it was in my youth. Not perfect: change is slow, but it does occur. And true, legislation doesn’t change how people think, but as people change the way they think, legislation often changes to reflect that. And yes, legislation forces people to accept the law, even if they don’t want to; and yes, hate crimes exist despite the laws against them. But if someone who dislikes me refrains from assaulting me because they fear the law, I’d prefer that they accepted me, but if they don’t, I’ll content myself with the fact that they’re not actually assaulting me. And if a hate crime is committed, it can be punished. Better that, than letting it go unchallenged and unpunished. Well, I agree it is better to have laws on the books but you have no doubt read of the shooting in Florida and according to the transcript of the tape the neighborhood watchman called the young boy a ....coon--a racial slur and very derrogatory, so again, laws haven't changed much since the 60's
Then I said,
I feel I belong in a different group altogether.
To which you replied,
This is strictly your mental construct. It could very well be a rationalization for just perceiving yourself as different.
Well, yes, my feeling is “my mental construct”, if you want to put it that way. That’s kind of what feelings are. And do I need a “rationalization” for perceiving myself as different? I’m coming to perceive myself as fundamentally different from others. I feel different, I say so. Where’s the rationalization? what I meant was that even if you see /feel yourself as different, there is no need to put a name to it---e.g. TG you are justifying your difference by giving it a name. you are entitled to be different from the rest of us.
And then you conclude (with my replies in between),
The only person that needs to accept your gender feelings is you. If you wish to present to society as something other than a male, that will be at your own risk of acceptance, which will not likely be forthcoming. [Yes, I realize other people might not accept me. But if they did, they’d be better people, and my life would be happier. In that sense, they “need” to accept me.]
Isn't it better to "live in one's head peacefully" than try to live among to Neandethals in the open? [That’s your opinion. Others disagree. I’m not sure what I think about that at the moment.] I think what I mean here is that is it important that "people" know that you are different? You could be a spy, for example, and you wouldn't want people to know that you were. To do otherwise, would put yourself in jeopardy--which is actually closer to the truth than not when declaring that you are TG or CD or whatever.
I think focusing on what we do in life, is more important than how we seem to be in doing it. Focusing constantly on "specialness" distracts from living and doing. [Focusing on specialness will change my perception of myself. E.g., I used to think of myself as a guy with a disgusting and shameful perversion. I’ve changed my mind now. Which means I’ll probably change the way I live. I’m not distracting myself from living—I’m deciding how I want to live.] Here I was referring more to a physical life of doing as opposed to a psychological life. If you were a physicist, would it make any real difference if you are TG or not? does it change the way you interpret the laws of nature or do the math? Einstein was Jewish but it didn't change the way he thought about the laws of physics. If your psychological perception of yourself was "a pervert", that is changed by la new psychological perception that you are not, and that what you do is OK. You have accepted yourself to be different, and that only has to work in your head. I think you give far too much credit to the folks at large that they will understand this some day, recognize us as real people with a different outlook on life and take us into their hearts. 75% of the US population has a high school diploma and they are in a large part represented by people like the senator from Tennessee.
fine, you are different, the rest of us are different, and then what? [We get on with living in the way we see fit.]
Finally, you asked,
I'm also curious on how you mean intersexed. Is that a psychological state? or are we talking here of biological status of being a hermaphrodite?
I didn’t say anything about “intersexed” and have no thoughts to offer on that subject right now.Sorry, I got that from Noeleena's reply and mixed it in with your OP.
Best wishes, Annabelle
replies are in green hopefully.
Personally, if I had my druthers, I'd rather be just a regular guy, having a pint at Barry Fitzgerald's or sauntering down O'Connell towards the Liffey or maybe just having a look at the Book of Kells.
Slainte
Busker
The problem is that the question itself is rooted in binary ideas. It may be that you are so committed to ideas of "proper" male and female identity that you are having trouble breaking free of them. There is no one way of being male or female. It's perfectly possible for a natal female to have exactly the characteristics that you have. The real question, then is can you see past those to your core identity?
That's not to say that non-binary identities aren't possible. I believe they are. But one should not start from the position that some things are male and others female.
Because we are not all crossdressers. Those who are mostly identify male, which obviates the point.
Lea
Lea
Hi,
As it is there is a 3rd gender & can be defined in being a none sexual Intersex can be both sex's yet none can not give birth & can not imprecnate , the sexual organs are non useable & surgery can not as far as i know do anything to repair that condition, in some case's,i for got about that one,
Interesex allso means hormones of both male & female, & depending on age every one unless different again has the same hormones more or less depending on how much & a few other factors, , meaning how much male or female are you,
Thats looking at it from what we call normal if it still works,
A worm is nether yet both hmmm i must ask a worm what are you,
...noeleena...
Last edited by noeleena; 03-26-2012 at 07:52 AM.
Hi, Lea! The point is well made here, and I would agree with most of it. But no, I don't think I'm committed to ideas of "proper" male and female identity. I recognize that there are great differences between individuals.
Yes, but I don't think we're talking about "things" that are male and female. We're talking about people who are male and female. And I think just about everyone starts from that position. Some of the people on this thread have emphasized that point. That is, people, whatever their individual differences, are recognized as male or female. True, we can't necessarily say that one trait is masculine and another feminine, but people themselves are recognized as male and female.
So the question I'm raising (and it may be for myself alone, and not for anyone else) is this: am I a variant of a male or a variant of a female (more doubtful), or if I am something of a mix of the two, do I become something fundamentally different? Something on the order of Sodium + Chlorine = Salt, the last being fundamentally different from the first two.
If I raise this question, I think in a way a lot of cisgender people feel it as well within them. So often they get so upset, sometimes even reacting violently against us. I think it's because in a way we challenge their view of the world. It would be as if you held out a coin and let go of it and watched it floating upwards. That sort of thing isn't supposed to happen. That's not the way the world works. I believe that we challenge something very deep-seated and fundamental in people--their view of the sexes. The male-female dichotomy may be illusory to a certain extent, but people perceive it as very sharp. So when TG's challenge this perception, it is deeply upsetting to them. If I'm beginning to feel a fundamental difference between me and the rest, perhaps I'm not alone.
People on this thread have expressed very different ideas about the way they perceive themselves. That's to be expected. I'm basically speaking for myself here, and it's up to others to decide whether they feel the same thing I do. If they say they don't, that's hardly surprising.
Yes, it is the real question, isn't it? My views on a lot of things have evolved throughout my life. My view of myself is now evolving, and I suspect it will continue to do so--unless I give up my girly stuff again and stop thinking about all these things.
Best wishes, Annabelle
Lea[/QUOTE]
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