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Thread: A Horse is a Horse

  1. #1
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    A Horse is a Horse

    Hi, Guys and Girls!

    I know I’ve been posting a lot lately. These last few months have been a real rush for me. All sorts of thoughts and feelings rising to the top, things I’ve never wanted to confront before, and now everything’s hitting me all at once, and I’m not sure what to do with it. So I’ve just told myself, Well, I’ll post it. Maybe it’ll strike a chord with somebody, maybe it won’t. In any case, when people are tired of me, my threads will just slide down the list with no reply, and that will tell me I’m past my sell-by date.

    What got to me this morning was this: I’d washed out a few items last night and hung them on the horse to dry. I happened to glance at them this morning, and I realized that there wasn’t a single male garment on the horse. As a matter of fact, I’ve been washing very little male clothing of late. I had to laugh. “If anybody could see this horse, they’d assume there’s a woman occupying this flat, and a fairly frilly one at that. But no, it’s just me—your friendly, neighbourhood tranny.”

    I also realized that I wasn’t ashamed of the fact. It’s odd. We may believe that thinking is one thing and feeling is another, whereas in fact the two are often a blend. You may have certain ideas in your mind, but how they impact on you depends on the emotional content they carry. I’ve always known I was a CDer, and that knowledge always occasioned a lot of guilt and shame. Now I confront that knowledge, and the guilt and shame are nowhere to be found. They’ve scurried off into some dark, little corner to hide.

    I was looking at my clothes on the horse, and I was a bit baffled. I was asking myself, “Why? Why did I ever feel any guilt or shame?”

    Yes, yes, I know: there’s male and there’s female, and you’re supposed to be one or the other, and if you’re not, then. . . then. . . Well, then, a lot of people will tell you you’re supposed to be ashamed of yourself. But why?

    Think about a child who’s born to parents of different races. She’s a blend who perhaps will not look much like either of her parents. Is that something to be ashamed of? (Yes, yes, I know, there are people who will say that it is, but not our sort of people.)

    And there were times, and those times are not completely past, when the notion of two people of different social classes marrying was not well received. But love is love, and it transcends class and race and a lot of other things. So how can there be any shame there?

    And so if someone is a blend of male and female, or if someone appears to be on one side of the divide when in fact they’re on the other, is there anything there that should occasion any guilt or shame? I understand that most people would reply, “Plenty!” I understand the concept. But the emotional baggage that the concept used to carry is now gone from my awareness.

    I understand that cisgender people don’t have the transgender experience. Thus they may not be equipped to come to the transgender awareness that this is a thing that simply is and need not carry any emotional baggage with it, unless we choose to load it with that baggage. As with a racially-mixed child, the notion that there is a flaw in my heritage no longer has any emotional impact on me.

    The danger for me at this point, I think, is that I may get lost in the celebrated Pink Fog. In a way, I’m leaving some people behind—the cisgender people who live all around me. My thinking and feeling, having for so long been bogged down in the Mire of Guilt and Shame, have suddenly freed themselves and raced off down the road. But my cisgender fellow-citizens have never had any reason to embark on that journey.

    So how do I face them? On what terms do I deal with them? They know nothing of me but the image I’ve always shown them. They’ve never known the old Annabelle who was always fearfully lurking below the surface. So they certainly won’t know how to deal with the New and Improved Annabelle. They won’t have a clue where she suddenly sprang from. And most of them won’t want to know anything about her.

    There have been a couple of threads on this forum recently that led two or three members that I know of saying that they don’t get out in public partly because they don’t want to impose on others. That is, we TG’s make other people uncomfortable, and these members feel that they should avoid upsetting them. This I understand, and in the debate as to whether CDers owe it to themselves or to their fellow CDers to get out in public, I’m firmly in the camp that declares that each person has the absolute right to choose for him or herself for whatever reasons they may have.

    Yet this is where I’ve left the cisgender community behind. I can no longer comprehend why I should upset them. Yes, yes, intellectually I grasp the concept. Intellectually, I understand why I would upset them. But emotionally I can no longer grasp it. It astonishes me to think that so many people in this town that I’ve lived in for many years now, who know me well, maybe even like and respect me, would now regard me as a freak or a pervert if I acquainted them with the real me.

    I don’t feel like a freak or a pervert. For a long time I did. Now I feel free. Now I feel nice. I’m beginning to feel at peace. I like Annabelle. I like her a lot better than that other person I was trying to force myself to be. And emotionally I’m having a hard time remembering that not everybody else would like her.

    Best wishes, Me

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    Hi Annabelle

    A very thoughtful and thought-provoking post that is 'spot-on'. Your example of a 'mixed race' or 'across social classes' marriage is very apt and easy to understand and explain to those who don't try to understand transgendered folks. We are somewhere in the middle and not at the ends of the M-F spectrum; I know I am.

    We upset the cisgender types in the same way someone leaving an insular community (eg a church) upsets the members. It challenges the foundations of their beliefs and forces them to think. For us to get out in public is, IMHO, a good thing as long as we are presenting in a positive manner and acting like the majority of the GGs around us. We need to avoid the feelings of guilt or shame that some in society try to push on us. It will take time but I think understanding will come eventually; just as it did for interracial couples.

    Hugs and good luck,
    Sandra1746

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra1746 View Post

    We upset the cisgender types in the same way someone leaving an insular community (eg a church) upsets the members. It challenges the foundations of their beliefs and forces them to think.
    Yeah, this is a good explanation of why we upset them. I think you can take various approaches, but the basic idea is that we mess with their heads and they don't like it. Nobody likes that sort of thing. Of course, we don't mean to mess with them. We just can't help it, given what we are.

    Annabelle

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    Transman Andy66's Avatar
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    I'm happy for you, Annabelle, that you are becoming more confident being yourself.

    But about putting clothes on a horse... yes, you should definitely be ashamed of yourself for that. (just kidding!)
    Last edited by Andy66; 04-15-2012 at 08:07 AM.

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    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Nicely written Annabelle! I'm in a similar place as you, I now embrace the femme side. I still keep her hidden to the immediate family and friends (out of sight out of mind). You're on your voyage of self discovery and it can be uplifting and wonderful if you remove obstacles society put in our way. We are the way we are. You can beat yourself up emotionally over it but it will take a toll and leave you miserable and it's still there. Self acceptance is the best way.

    Being MTF is the hardest for society to accept. Being gay is much easier to accept now, but put a dress on a gay guy and people will shun her. There are some wonderful TG ladies (CD & TS) out on the front lines educating and showing the public we are not freaks and weirdos. They do this because they are comfortable with who they are and want to change public views about us. I also agree it's a right to decide for all of us. Nobody has the right to ask or tell you to leave the confines of your home. No explanation by you is necessary either, it is a personal choice..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy66 View Post
    But about putting clothes on a horse... yes, you should definitely be ashamed of yourself for that. (just kidding!)
    If you can put a tie on a chimp (v. your avatar), why not tights on a horse?

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    Gold Member Cynthia Anne's Avatar
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    Some very interesting thoughts there! One should never be ashamed for expressing who they are! Thank you for sharing! Hugs!
    If you don't like the way I'm livin', you just leave this long haired country girl alone:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post
    Yet this is where I’ve left the cisgender community behind. I can no longer comprehend why I should upset them. Yes, yes, intellectually I grasp the concept. Intellectually, I understand why I would upset them. But emotionally I can no longer grasp it. It astonishes me to think that so many people in this town that I’ve lived in for many years now, who know me well, maybe even like and respect me, would now regard me as a freak or a pervert if I acquainted them with the real me.
    It's difficult to reconcile a growing awareness that gender is not binary, with society's expectation that it should be. It involves making decisions as to what is most important: presentation or living in concert with others. If an individual is transsexual the decision is pretty much made for her: she is at one end of binary gender in terms of being a woman and mentally she is driven to live in her target gender, which I dare say is easier for other cisgenders to understand than someone who is in-between. That's not saying that most people initially approve of transition, but they do better understand the concept of being either one gender or the other.

    But identity CDers need to reconcile the rest. My SO did it by constructing a life that enables her to switch back and forth with ease and fluidity, and only telling the people that she feels would genuinely accept this. The rest of the time he is also happy being a guy.

    She effectively found a way to be happy with who she is internally all the time, while accepting society's current rules about gender.
    Last edited by ReineD; 04-15-2012 at 05:21 PM.
    Reine

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    The Girl will Out! Kaz's Avatar
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    Great thread and Annabelle... spot on! I am in 'place' where I am happy with who I am and all that and yeah... I need the two gender presentations to stay 'self-affirmed'... I was going to say sane, but that is not really appropriate. I fell that I am a mix though and enjoy presenting in various guises - I always have. I wear suits when appropriate and DJs, lecture to business men and then undergraduate students - different attire, different approach - and I play loud aggressive rock live... as well as more jazz stuff... totally different approaches and ways of expressing who I am.

    Reine is right, it is about reconciling all these seemingly conflicting sides of us in order to work out who we really are and how we can then make that work...

    Many on this site insist on A or B, Black or White... this isn't me... I like being me and exploring all my component parts!
    Kaz xx

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  10. #10
    "Grandma Susan" SusanLCD's Avatar
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    As Reine, Kaz, and others have pointed out, those of us who aren't in one or the other binary group may have odd levels of "shame" (my term; not theirs) until we reconcile within ourselves.

    We take the easy way by enjoyng some aspects of our alter-egos and retreating to our "standard" personna when faced with the other, more mundane parts. Many of those who have lept across the divide see this lack of commitment to one or the other as a lack of integrity/courage. In their eyes, shame on us for not having the backbone to make that leap, too.

    For those who are tightly closeted, we aren't treating those around us with the respect they deserve. They love us and we betray their trust. Shame on us for not being honest with them.

    If we've kept our secret for very long, we've found ways to mask our other existence. These are called lies and each one begets another. We know that we don't have the courage to expose those lies and become subjected to the penalties that will incur. A self-loathing develops for our lack of the courage to open the closet. Shame on us for being such cowards.

    It must be easier to categorize into A or B. I know that I would feel less "ashamed" if I could say I was one or the other. Until I can reconcile that, I will struggle, internally.

    Communities like this one help by shining light on our concerns. They allow us to see that we aren't alone. They allow us to hear the views of others who shed additional and much-needed light on them. They provide viewpoints that are often less harsh (or NOT) than we have been on ourselves. And, hopefully, they help us to realize that we all have to work out our internal gremlins in a way with which we can each live.

    Thank you, Annabelle, for this thread and to all others for what you contribute, regardless whether we all agree or not with the inputs.
    Susan

    "Not sure who I am, yet. But, I'll let you know..."

  11. #11
    My Ship has sailed? Barbara Ella's Avatar
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    We all can agree that a horse is a horse, unless of course the horse is a horse with the name of.....wont say it. Point being that there are horses of different colors and flavors, and this applies directly to crossdressers. There are many flavors for us, but we are all sisters under the skin. comfort with the skin, and the support, albeit mental, is what is important.

    I am very happy discovering my inner self. I thought I was just a crossdresser. I am realizing that I am so much more. I have a female side within me. I am comfortable with a transgender horse skin and my developing realization of who i/we am/are. It is all very new. But I know that I like Barbara. I like for her to come visit. SOmetimes I dont want her to visit, like this weekend, just a downer time, but I love her and dont care who else might not, because right now I have no intention to show her to anyone else. i am selfish, and my cisgendered friends are for the most part, just inconsiderate and lack the knowledge to handle me. At times I am too hot for me....lol

    Barbara
    He (she) who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance.
    - Friedrich Nietzche -
    I may never get to fly like the other girls, but I do so want to dance, so I continue to climb.

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    we're t'ain't

    Quote Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse View Post
    Hi, Guys and Girls!

    I know I’ve been posting a lot lately. These last few months have been a real rush for me. All sorts of thoughts and feelings rising to the top, things I’ve never wanted to confront before, and now everything’s hitting me all at once, and I’m not sure what to do with it. So I’ve just told myself, Well, I’ll post it. Maybe it’ll strike a chord with somebody, maybe it won’t. In any case, when people are tired of me, my threads will just slide down the list with no reply, and that will tell me I’m past my sell-by date.

    What got to me this morning was this: I’d washed out a few items last night and hung them on the horse to dry. I happened to glance at them this morning, and I realized that there wasn’t a single male garment on the horse. As a matter of fact, I’ve been washing very little male clothing of late. I had to laugh. “If anybody could see this horse, they’d assume there’s a woman occupying this flat, and a fairly frilly one at that. But no, it’s just me—your friendly, neighbourhood tranny.”

    I also realized that I wasn’t ashamed of the fact. It’s odd. We may believe that thinking is one thing and feeling is another, whereas in fact the two are often a blend. You may have certain ideas in your mind, but how they impact on you depends on the emotional content they carry. I’ve always known I was a CDer, and that knowledge always occasioned a lot of guilt and shame. Now I confront that knowledge, and the guilt and shame are nowhere to be found. They’ve scurried off into some dark, little corner to hide.

    I was looking at my clothes on the horse, and I was a bit baffled. I was asking myself, “Why? Why did I ever feel any guilt or shame?”

    Yes, yes, I know: there’s male and there’s female, and you’re supposed to be one or the other, and if you’re not, then. . . then. . . Well, then, a lot of people will tell you you’re supposed to be ashamed of yourself. But why?

    Think about a child who’s born to parents of different races. She’s a blend who perhaps will not look much like either of her parents. Is that something to be ashamed of? (Yes, yes, I know, there are people who will say that it is, but not our sort of people.)

    And there were times, and those times are not completely past, when the notion of two people of different social classes marrying was not well received. But love is love, and it transcends class and race and a lot of other things. So how can there be any shame there?

    And so if someone is a blend of male and female, or if someone appears to be on one side of the divide when in fact they’re on the other, is there anything there that should occasion any guilt or shame? I understand that most people would reply, “Plenty!” I understand the concept. But the emotional baggage that the concept used to carry is now gone from my awareness.

    I understand that cisgender people don’t have the transgender experience. Thus they may not be equipped to come to the transgender awareness that this is a thing that simply is and need not carry any emotional baggage with it, unless we choose to load it with that baggage. As with a racially-mixed child, the notion that there is a flaw in my heritage no longer has any emotional impact on me.

    The danger for me at this point, I think, is that I may get lost in the celebrated Pink Fog. In a way, I’m leaving some people behind—the cisgender people who live all around me. My thinking and feeling, having for so long been bogged down in the Mire of Guilt and Shame, have suddenly freed themselves and raced off down the road. But my cisgender fellow-citizens have never had any reason to embark on that journey.

    So how do I face them? On what terms do I deal with them? They know nothing of me but the image I’ve always shown them. They’ve never known the old Annabelle who was always fearfully lurking below the surface. So they certainly won’t know how to deal with the New and Improved Annabelle. They won’t have a clue where she suddenly sprang from. And most of them won’t want to know anything about her.

    There have been a couple of threads on this forum recently that led two or three members that I know of saying that they don’t get out in public partly because they don’t want to impose on others. That is, we TG’s make other people uncomfortable, and these members feel that they should avoid upsetting them. This I understand, and in the debate as to whether CDers owe it to themselves or to their fellow CDers to get out in public, I’m firmly in the camp that declares that each person has the absolute right to choose for him or herself for whatever reasons they may have.

    Yet this is where I’ve left the cisgender community behind. I can no longer comprehend why I should upset them. Yes, yes, intellectually I grasp the concept. Intellectually, I understand why I would upset them. But emotionally I can no longer grasp it. It astonishes me to think that so many people in this town that I’ve lived in for many years now, who know me well, maybe even like and respect me, would now regard me as a freak or a pervert if I acquainted them with the real me.

    I don’t feel like a freak or a pervert. For a long time I did. Now I feel free. Now I feel nice. I’m beginning to feel at peace. I like Annabelle. I like her a lot better than that other person I was trying to force myself to be. And emotionally I’m having a hard time remembering that not everybody else would like her.

    Best wishes, Me
    t'ain't male, t'ain't female. That's our problem. If we presented one way or the other, things would go swimmingly. We're neither fish nor foul.That
    is the main problem. The notion that we "embarrass" others or make them uncomfortable doesn't make any more sense than staying home because one has an artificial leg, or no arm, or is brilliant beyond counting. The stigma, if any , should be one the "viewer", not the presenter. I've seen it where someone feels ashamed to be pushed in a wheelchair, or is handicapped in some very visible way, but I think society is over that now (I think it is). Our problem, if it is a problem, is that we are in the middle. We could present as ordinary, even unattractive females, if we were to do it on a constant basis, but doing the chameleon thing brings more attention to us than we want. we want it both ways. So people don't know how to react to us. If we claim some sort of inner woman, than how is it that is comes and goes. Also, people don't like to be fooled. A guy presenting as a female must ward off all advances lest the person advancing get duped into thinking that the "woman" in front of him is real. I suspect that is where a lot of the stories of violence arises. There will always be a certain amount of guilt at "fooling" people, and perhaps the shame will be the result.

  13. #13
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    "A clothes horse", yep that's what I call them too, my other half from Manchester insists on calling it a maiden, jeez...

    But seriously an interesting point you raise Annabelle. My SO wants me go shopping with her en femme when I am ready, however I am not sure I will ever be for the reason you stated, I would feel uncomfortable for her and at the back of my mind I would be worrying if she was either embarrassed by me or if a friend of hers saw us together with me en femme.

    As for you and your internal conflicts, you have to do what feels right for you hon.

    Hugs Charlotte
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post

    But identity CDers need to reconcile the rest. My SO did it by constructing a life that enables her to switch back and forth with ease and fluidity, and only telling the people that she feels would genuinely accept this. The rest of the time he is also happy being a guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Reine is right, it is about reconciling all these seemingly conflicting sides of us in order to work out who we really are and how we can then make that work...
    This touches on the main problem I'm currently having: I'm caught between two lifestyles, so to speak. It can be a big inconvenience trying to juggle the two. I congratulate those who can do it. For myself, it would be simpler to choose one or the other, and there's no doubt which one I'd choose if I had my druthers--"the road less travelled". I know the one lifestyle far too well. The other one is more fun, richer and more satisfying. I'm wondering if it isn't possible for me to adopt it 24/7. That will require some huge adjustments, but I'm beginning to suspect it would be worth it to me.

    Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful posts. Annabelle

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    Life is for having fun. suzy1's Avatar
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    What I love about your thread Annabelle is the way you seem to have progressed in the time you have been here.
    I got the impression that you were not free from the guilt of C.D.ing and it was frustrating to read your posts sometimes.
    I was so hoping you could get the lovely feeling and contentment that I enjoy free of all guilt.

    Take your time, avoid the dreaded ‘pink fog’ and go on progressing towards the life you want and deserve.

    Super thread girl.

    Hugs, SUZY

  16. #16
    Senior Member Krististeph's Avatar
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    I never felt like a freak or a pervert- but was very defensive about letting my feminine side out. I was small as a kid, and rather picked on, I fought back some- but it didn't help much. So i kept to myself- did other things. I got into bike racking which was pretty rare in rural wisconsin years ago- excpt for down in Madison, Milwaukee, Racine, etc.

    I went into the army to get away from wisconsin and home- dad was a semi-functional alkie, hypocritical angry old ass, much as I wanted to love the idiot. Did well in the army, but opted to get out after being injured in training. Took technical jobs where i fixed stuff or ran equipment.
    A decade ago i went back to school, and found i do very well as a teacher. I was hired the second semester i went back, and have taught either full or part time ever since. Still like the technical jobs- in the pharmaceutical or medical industry is best. Seems like a good place to come out as a TG, i feel like i fit well.

    I don't CD at school or work, and not openly in view at home, though the neighbors can't have failed to notice my shaved legs when i jump on my bicycle. I'm also fairly active in the neighborhood- keep an eye on the older folks, the houses for sale (not occupied) help neighbors fix lawn mowers & snowblowers and all that.

    So i understand your 'evolving', i am as well, for as much as i am 'out'. No advice on coming out, except for everything else i've done- seems best to be yourself right from the start. Sorry if it's not much help, but I feel for you, and i'm rooting for you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by suzy1 View Post
    What I love about your thread Annabelle is the way you seem to have progressed in the time you have been here.
    I got the impression that you were not free from the guilt of C.D.ing and it was frustrating to read your posts sometimes.
    SUZY
    Quote Originally Posted by Krististeph View Post
    So i understand your 'evolving', i am as well, for as much as i am 'out'. No advice on coming out, except for everything else i've done- seems best to be yourself right from the start. Sorry if it's not much help, but I feel for you, and i'm rooting for you!
    Thanks, Girls. It's true that my feelings have evolved quite a bit over the last few months. Partly from the encouragement I've got on this forum, and maybe partly just trying to think clearly about things. I know I still have a long way to go, but whether or not I get there in the end, I'd at least like for the journey to be rewarding.

    Best wishes, Annabelle

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    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Annabelle forgive me but looking at your thread title reminded me of Mr. Ed the talking horse.

    My mind wanders sometimes...

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    Marleena, I couldn't think of a title for this thread. So since it started out by mentioning a horse, I just went with that. But if you want to think about Mr. Ed, that's OK. I liked the show, too.

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    An old friend once told me that "Other peoples opinions of me were none of my business". Applying that maxim to your situation and mine, we aren't imposing a darn thing on any person who happens to encounter one of us in a public space. If a person you or I encounter happens to take some offence at our presence, its thier business and its their problem. If a person were make it our problem, by getting in our face or in some other way denying our rights, then its our business. Until such an occurrence, I don't bother myself with what others may think.

  21. #21
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimdl93 View Post
    An old friend once told me that "Other peoples opinions of me were none of my business". Applying that maxim to your situation and mine, we aren't imposing a darn thing on any person who happens to encounter one of us in a public space. If a person you or I encounter happens to take some offence at our presence, its thier business and its their problem. If a person were make it our problem, by getting in our face or in some other way denying our rights, then its our business. Until such an occurrence, I don't bother myself with what others may think.
    Kim this one of the best statements I have seen here. We all need this attitude!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy66 View Post
    I'm happy for you, Annabelle, that you are becoming more confident being yourself.

    But about putting clothes on a horse... yes, you should definitely be ashamed of yourself for that. (just kidding!)
    And just where did you find a picture of me dressed???

  23. #23
    Senior Member KellyJameson's Avatar
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    You have such a delicate touch with words Annabelle, I always read your threads with pleasure.

    You are caught between two social identities represented as a lifestyle. Relationships regardless of how casual both give and take simultaneously and we are always in danger of defining ourself in part by how others respond to us much like a child who is always labelled bad begins to believe the label is the child.

    My spirits are always given a little lift when I read someone does not feel shame about crossdressing or any other aspect of life that does not truly cause harm to others because in my mind that is when the true adventure begins. We take responsibility for harm because we label behavior as harmful when it is not, we do not understand the difference between opinion and fact because we treat opinions as facts just because the majority holds these opinions.

    I try to find a balance between living my life as an expression of who I am with the understanding that who I am, who I was and who I will be has and always will run contrary to the expression of how most wish to live and express their lives, this happens on many many different levels not just crossdressing. The crossdressing is just one small piece of a much larger tapestry that touches on spirituality, sexuality, personal morals, ect .. everything that is me.

    In many ways acting feminine or masculine is illusionary because the behaviors are adopted by how we are taught to act (suppose to act) but I do believe there is a very real feeling state of feminine and masculine that has nothing to do with biology but whose states are more likely to be found in one sex over the other and going against your natural state will make you sick.

    All of life is a choice about the relationship we have with ourselves in relationship to others and the one we have regardless of others, it creates a delicious tension with all the potential to destroy or create you. Your relationship with risk and the pleasures you desire and pain you wish to avoid will influence your choices.

    Sometimes we must let go of the good to experience the great.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyJameson View Post
    . . . who I am, who I was and who I will be has and always will run contrary to the expression of how most wish to live and express their lives, this happens on many many different levels not just crossdressing. . .
    I think this is a very good post, Kelly. There's a great deal here that's very perceptive, things that all of us TG's would do well to think about. And some of us can relate in particular to the above quote.

    Best wishes, Annabelle

  25. #25
    Aspiring Member SarahLynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Annabelle, i know it's because i live across the pond but could you please show us a picture of a clothes horse? Yeah i could goooooogle it but i'm a bit of a dunderhead about some things and it seems to me you could show me better then i can find on the internet. Please????
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