Wife's ultimatum

[Lesley_Roberta]

Just a gut response and I hope this is not taken wrong. I usually trust my gut responses that spring out first.

"My wife and I have been married for 4 years"

I recall being married 4 years. Sort of, it was so long ago.
But I do recall the 7 year itch, the 10 year blahs, the 15 year slump, the 20 year god we've been together forever, and I have passed the 25 year mark as well.

4 years is not very long, you haven't really even been together long enough to reeeeeally experience some things. Sadly not everyone meshes though.

I do hope though that you and your wife consider it worth the effort to do some marriage courses. If nothing, the ability to talk in front of someone taking notes and not having a side will mean neither of you has the advantage.

And it will take more than 1 session and it will take more than 4 or 5 too.
It took me the accumulated meetings of several years at a session per month on average. But I was going at the expense of my disability pension and normal coverage typically Canadian. If it was coming out of my pocket, I would likely have seen to it we didn't ramble at our sessions as often

You need to keep talking to you finish saying all that needs to be said.

[BRANDYJ]

OK, let me say this. A confession of sorts without the details. I once was so engrossed in something I wanted that no one, I mean no one could have talked me out of it. I was blind and so selfish. No, it had nothing to do with being TG what so ever. But in the end, it caused a divorce. it only took me about 6 months for me to realize how selfish, how stubborn and wrong I was. To this very day I have regrets and wonder how and why I was so stupid. I lost the love of a very good woman and hurt her in my selfishness. Perhaps the biggest regret I have ever felt. Fortunately today my now ex-wife and I are at least friends. She says she can't forgive me, but we check in on each other from time to time, so I feel she has forgiven me to some degree to at least care about me as a person. I am blessed for that small concession. Even though I am in a new and very loving relationship, I still think back 6 years and feel the pain. I wish I had a group of people like this forum that wanted to o[pen my eyes and make me see how very wrong and hurtful I was. We did not have small children between us, just a step daughter i loved dearly. I lost her and still miss her.
Sierra, open your eyes and listen to what some very well meaning people are trying to say to you. look deep into your own self and see how you are destroying a love you may never see again. Not oonly from your wife, but those little girls as well. I sense that you wish this therapist will say that you are a candidate for HRT. You will try to persuade her to make that conclusion for your own selfish reasons. I;d be going to her in hopes she wants to kick me in the butt and put my head back on my shoulders and make me see what I have and might be about to lose. I sense you will try to control her thinking as you have been trying to control your wife's. I sincerely hope she sees this and can help you. But still, my hope is that she can help Mrs.G even more. And no, that does not mean that she will help Mrs.G see things your way. I mean that she will help her with her pain and concern for the marriage and your children.
I hope you don't someday have to be saddened every time you think back to the biggest mistake you might be heading for now. I don't wish the pain I endured when I woke up to late, on anyone.

[ReineD]

Mrs. G, you're both fairly new here, and I just want to say that If Sierra feels she is not a CDer it could be that Sierra's definition of a CDer is someone who dresses purely for sexual reasons, and so she does not feel aligned with this definition. But, please know there are many identity CDers who also do not dress for sexual reasons but who at the same time do not feel they are transsexuals who need Sexual Reassignment Surgery. There's a pretty large spectrum of CDing motives among those who do not feel the need to eradicate their male parts.

As to the "TG", you both need a bit of an education about what this means. Some people think it is somewhere between "CD" and "TS". It is not. While it is true there are people who do not fit the gender binary paradigm (they do feel a mixture of feminine and masculine traits) even if in periods of their lives their need to present as women is quite strong, there is a difference between someone who is transsexual and someone who is not. The decision to take HRT to look like a woman in order to pass better or perhaps to get some breast development while believing there will not be any other effects of HRT (testicle shrinkage, loss of libido, and loss of male sexual functionality) is not sound. HRT doesn't work that way, people can't pick and choose what part of their anatomy it will affect and what parts will be left alone.

It could well be that Sierra has had a change from her posts in this thread and she now realizes she is indeed a transsexual who will need to transition, but she would need to identify solidly as a female, she would need to find no use for her penis, and the thought of being a man if only for a day would need to send her into depths of depression as to make it difficult for her to function in her daily life. Also depending on her physiognomy, she would also need to assess her chances of passing as a woman even after HRT (there is just so much that HRT can do in terms of changing someone's physical appearance especially after puberty), and possibly consider getting Facial Feminization Surgery.

So far I've gotten the impression based on Sierra's posts this is more about being submissive for her than an inherent, all-encompassing female gender identity. But, this is only an online forum and it is impossible to get a complete picture just based on a dozen short posts. I also want to say that I've gotten to know TSs in this forum and in my personal life and believe me, they certainly do not strike me as being insipid, wishy-washy individuals. Modern women are strong, not submissive, and a need to be submissive is not a trait that is gender specific to women, nor should it be any reason for transition. There are many men who enjoy being submissive too.

But, as previously mentioned we can't resolve Sierra's gender identity in something as remote as an online forum. I wanted to just give you the very basic differences between a TS and someone who is not TS (and who therefore, in my opinion, has no business getting HRT).

Edit
I don't want to put any words in anyone's mouth, but my biggest concern between the two of you is that this is turning into a power play more than anything else. If Sierra is adamant that she will not "backslide", and you are adamant that you do not want to be partnered to a woman, given the speed with which this is all happening, I can't help but think that Sierra wants to force your hand so that she can have an opportunity to live alone and express herself more freely. It almost feels like a series of "all or nothing/my way or not" scenarios. I can't say this is Sierra's true motive, just the impression I get, and this to me feels like "pink fog" more than anything else. I may well come to eat my words, but I just wanted to give you my thoughts at this time.

[CONSUELO]

I think that others have said this but I recommend that you find a good knowledgeable counsellor or therapist. You are a cross dresser and you cannot just suddenly suppress that. I believe that it is not a choice issue. You are or you are not. But wrecking a relationship is also not a good option, especially as there are children involved. Take your time and do seek help.

[Mrs. G]

Thank you Reine for the differences, I don't try to pretend to know much about any of this and found it helpful. I guess my question to you is how should I refer to Sierra's choice in my future posts. He considers HRT , and has tried to explain it to me by saying " Its like being a lesbian stuck in a mans body. However he doesn't want the final surgery to remove his man parts. He has said he would do everything just short of that. Is that typical of the "Fog"? I know that that is not a clinical thing either. I am just lost as to how to properly explain our situation with out giving someone the wrong info because I don't know the proper terminology.

[Sandra]

and has tried to explain it to me by saying " Its like being a lesbian stuck in a mans body..

Well I'm married to TS who is transitioning and she has said it is nothing like that....I think that Sierra is not in the pink fog but a real thick pea souper.


Mrs G

Don't worry to much about the terms as time goes on you'll pick them up and understand them a bit more.

[BRANDYJ]

I think that Sierra is not in the pink fog but a real thick pea souper.

Sandra, I never heard the term "pea souper" Must be one of those British terms we yanks don't use. Can you explain what you mean by it? I'm confused by it, so I'm sure Mrs. G would be too.

[ReineD]

I guess my question to you is how should I refer to Sierra's choice in my future posts. He considers HRT , and has tried to explain it to me by saying " Its like being a lesbian stuck in a mans body. However he doesn't want the final surgery to remove his man parts. He has said he would do everything just short of that. Is that typical of the "Fog"?

I like Sandra's take on this.

Being a lesbian has absolutely nothing to do with someone's gender identity. You ask what label you should assign to Sierra right now. I would say a capital "Q" for "Questionning". His desire to be a submissive lesbian can be so great as to make her believe she is truly a woman. But, this is fantasy talk IMO. You never hear TSs say this.

In my experience, the fastest, least painful way out of this is to have Sierra go out (and in order to do this he will have to not obviously look like a guy in a dress, so will need to shave the visible parts of his body, i.e. lower legs, upper chest, and perhaps clip back the arm hair if it is very dark and bushy, also pluck the bushiness between the eyebrows if there is some (it is not necessary to turn them into a high arch ... androgynous eyebrows are doable so they don't look weird in guy mode). And then Sierra will simply need to see for herself what life as a woman who does groceries, goes to the bank, etc, is really like compared to the ideal that many CDers believe it is, as long as they are in their closets.

Also a word of warning: going to LGBT or alternative nightclubs doesn't count as a realistic outing. In these places there are all kinds of people who also like to play along with the fantasy.

[WifeofWrenchette]

My husband used to think he was a "lesbian trapped in a man's body" when he was first going through "pink fog". Fast forward to six years later and he no longer thinks that. Your husband's thoughts/views may change on that after he's had some time to experiment and educate himself on all this. I like Reine's suggestion for him to live like a woman, doing EVERYDAY things a woman does, to see what he and how he feels doing it.

[ReineD]

I like Reine's suggestion for him to live like a woman, doing EVERYDAY things a woman does, to see what he and how he feels doing it.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to infer living like a woman full time, just going out on a regular basis (in the next town over if need be), until the fantasy of it all gets knocked down a notch or two.

[sierra_g]

Thank you Reine for the differences, I don't try to pretend to know much about any of this and found it helpful. I guess my question to you is how should I refer to Sierra's choice in my future posts. He considers HRT , and has tried to explain it to me by saying " Its like being a lesbian stuck in a mans body. However he doesn't want the final surgery to remove his man parts. He has said he would do everything just short of that. Is that typical of the "Fog"? I know that that is not a clinical thing either. I am just lost as to how to properly explain our situation with out giving someone the wrong info because I don't know the proper terminology.

I'm not technically responding to this, but referencing it for some clarification.
Lesb in mans body isn't quite right. That was a very quick way to explain that I'm not gay. I am hetero and if I were to transition, I would still be only interested in females.
As for the surgery part, I am very stuck on this. I read about TS'ers that hate their parts and self loathe about them, but I've also read about how before HRT, many TS'ers loved their parts.
Mine is simply an instrument for sex. All male bodies of all species has an equivalent to it. I don't self loathe over it, but there are times I seriously hate that I have it instead of a vag.

Brandy: Pea Souper means that the fog is extra thick. Pea soup is a term used to describe the London fog that is so thick you can't see your hand in front of your face.

CONSUELO and SharedAcc: Tomorrow I see a therapist for the first time actually.

Reine, I am very aware of all the effects of HRT. If it just gave breasts and made males more fem without the shrinkage, sterilization, erections, depression, libido, blood clots, etc, it would be much more fun and there would be a lot more transitioners. I don't know where in the spectrum I fit. I hope for the sake of my family that it is a big fog, but either way, I want answers. I am not headed to the therapist tomorrow to sway them, that would be stupid. I plan on answering her questions as best I can. 100% truth, 100% honest.

I admit I have called her bluff a couple times, for the most part, I don't. There have been plenty of opportunities for me to leave, but I don't. I love my wife very much and pray that we can hold together. This is a trying few months, and I know it will just get worse. To add to this, her medical issues need her to be in a low stress environment. This is anything but. I pray we can settle down a bit with this and come to agreeable terms soon. Marriage counseling is a long road, and so is GI therapy. I don't expect any fixes in the next week, I can wait. I don't know that I can ever fully deny my female self again, but if I need to try, I can.

As far as being a sub goes, I am very much one, but I don't see a connection between this and that. Maybe I'm blind to it. I've tried putting all the fetish sub stuff behind me so I can focus on this.

Reine: With your other, newer post, you probably know already what I am going to say, but I would love to spend a day or a few days out as a "woman". It is something I look forward to doing one day. I think I would be more embarrassed by going to the local "gay bar" than anywhere else. I've already seen first hand on more than one occasion that people don't give a crud about what you look like as long as either A) They don't have to deal with you specifically, or B) You have money and want to buy something. Who knows, maybe it is just fantasy and maybe that would bring it back to reality.

Silentpartner: Thank you for the kind words.

Brandy: You heed the same warning as my father, he and my mom divorced when I was 2. My wife and I have actually been married for about 4 months longer than my parents were (new record!). One of the biggest positives is that my wife has repeatedly told me she would never keep the kids away from me.
The kids are one of our biggest arguments about this. She feels they shouldn't be exposed to it until they are moved out. I feel that they would resent being lied to, and I fear that they would be repeatedly told that CD/TS/TG is a horrible thing, like what I was told while growing up. They would see me as being someone who is awful.

[ReineD]

I'm glad you're starting therapy, I wish you all the best with this. And given this is all new, please believe us that Pink Fog can be very powerful and give it at least a few years before you do anything to alter your body, but by all means you need to find a way to express yourself on a regular basis

As to counselors who diagnose for GID, I'm afraid there are some who are very knowledgeable about this, while others aren't so much. I don't know if you're going to see a family therapist who has had some exposure to people who question their gender identities, or if you are seeing someone who is clinically trained in gender dysphoria.

But, no good therapist will tell you who you are, you will not be magically given the OK to begin transition unless you expressly say this is what you need for yourself.

[Beautiful]

im sorry this has happened to you but i hope you find happiness.

[Babeba]

[QUOTE=sierra_g;2843000]Mrs G shaved me before I ever found the forum and I kept it up. It hadn't really been brought up again until 2 nights ago. She asked me to grow it back and I told her I would rather not. I felt that backsliding is not the way to go. [\quote]

Sierra, if you want your relationship to survive you are going to have to slide backwards, forwards and side-to-side. Trust your wife when she tells you things and her feelings. As your wife and the mother of your children, as your PARTNER, she is a part of this journey. You need to know that even we who are accepting of our spouses have days where some things matter more to us (or less). Honestly, while your chest may be shaved, I am not convinced that you're actually firm on the footing you think you might be. Going too fast is a good way to fall off the obstacle course, and have to start again far behind where you could have been if you were going more slowly.

Think about it. Hair grows back so quickly, (it comes off relatively quickly too) and trust me when I say the job is mundane when you actually have to do it all the time. It isn't any effort at all to let it grow for now until your wife is okay with that step. Some men work hours and hours of overtime, or slave away at projects to get or make things to make their wives happier. Crystal has spent several evenings recently driving three hours round trip to sit with me for a couple hours and drive home again to go back to working overtime as I've been poorly and this is how he can comfort me. You can comfort your wife and make her happy by just letting your hair follicles do their duties! How is that backwards in your life as a whole?

I totally understand that I shouldn't push more than she can take, but if that is zero then do I give it up and just pretend it doesn't exist for the rest of our lives? How does that solve anything?

simply the fact that she is here and you are not on your butt in the street means her level of acceptance is NOT zero. She didn't push you into a religious rehab centre (there is a thread by Sarahcrossed in the loved ones section you should read), she didn't refuse to talk about any of this stuff, she didn't take a pair of scissors to all your girl things, she didn't ask for money to keep from telling everyone your 'dirty secret...' these things have all happened with members. I'm not trying to use scare tactics, and I'm not trying to say it is a bad decision to tell about cross dressing... But it takes time to come to terms with things, and your wife is not 100% comfortable with this stuff right now. It's fair enough, because it took YOU years and decades of being you to come to this point and she's had how long? A month or so of really dealing with it? IMHO, you are going too fast right now and that is going to backslide you in life if you are not careful.

I would love to help my wife be more comfortable and accepting, but the once that she did let me dress, she said that it repulsed her. Her morals, and her faith are against it. If I attempt to shift her morals or rock her faith, isn't that worse? I don't want to hurt her more than I already have, yet no matter what I do, I manage to do just that. I pray we find a middle ground. Tomorrow is the first day of therapy, so maybe the therapist will have some ideas as well, but as always - no matter how harsh, I do appreciate your input.

One of the great things about personal faith is that it is between a person and their deity. Trying to moderate the influences on that person to make clear insights on that faith doesn't help them, sometimes it makes issues more cloudy. The best things you can do right now for Mrs. G are to treat her with honesty -let her know what is going on - and respect - really, listen to her and work within boundaries that you both can live with. This line I've boldest just sounds so defeatist... You really need to keep at it even if it seems like you are hurting her anyway, it hurts more when you CDs stop trying.

Also, I skimmed the later posts a little and you are talking about HRT: there are many, many therapists who will make you see a doctor to prescribe. There are also many healthcare professionals who will make you live full time or have a more stable home situation before prescription of HRT. Hormones are not given out like candy.

There are many, MANY TG people on this board and just because you don't feel like a CDer doesn't mean that you are TS, either. There are many TG people who incorporate aspects of both genders into their lives and feel most complete this way, in fact I would say a rather large portion of the less vocal members are like this.

[Badtranny]

wow another thread that I didn't think was particularly interesting got pretty damn interesting when I wasn't watching.

Sierra, I'm not getting a TS vibe from you. Maybe it's because your wife is watching but you sound like a standard CD to me. I may be wrong (of course) but you need to seriously consider that you might just LOVE wearing women's clothes. Being "more" than a crossdresser is just big talk until you can back it up with actions and that means coming out. Yes, CD's do not NEED to come out, but TS's absolutely must. You need to start thinking more about the work and less about the clothes. I don't know if you've been following my transition but I walked into my office today for the first time as Melissa. I've been transitioning for two years (openly for one) and today is the FIRST day I walked into the world as a full time career woman. I'm gonna be honest with you, I was a wreck. I didn't even park in my space which they have already changed to read my new name. I parked in the visitor's space as close to the front door as possible and I still sat there for a few minutes trying to get the nerve to walk in the door. I'm not ashamed to say that I almost left and tried again tomorrow. I was an emotional wreck for the last few days (crying sessions and everything) and that's AFTER a long and carefully planned transition. My stock advice to people who are questioning their identity is; If you're not ready to come out, then you're not ready to transition. Don't think about the clothes, they are of very little concern to me, think about walking into the world as a "handsome" woman. I thought I was ready, but it was just one more thing that I was wrong about. It is extremely difficult to reveal yourself in conversation to your colleagues, it is exponentially more difficult to reveal yourself in 3D.

[Sandra]

Sandra, I never heard the term "pea souper" Must be one of those British terms we yanks don't use. Can you explain what you mean by it? I'm confused by it, so I'm sure Mrs. G would be too.

Fog so think that you can't see your hand in front of you.

[sierra_g]

My wife ended up going to the apt with me. It was a great apt. We talked quite a bit. She is more of a family therapist, but currently has multiple TS patients. She is very experienced in GID's. We basically just did an assessment and called it good. Next apt is on Tuesday. Glad to see that things are starting to roll correctly. I have a lot of faith in her so far. I shared things with her in the first session that I thought I would take to the grave.

[Soriya]

Great to hear Sierra!

[Melissa_59]

S... children without 2 parents do less well than children with 2 parents.

I absolutely disagree with this. My brother, sister, and I would have been much better off to have one happy parent than two miserable parents, and we always seemed to get dragged into the fights and the mix. When my mother finally divorced our father, I was never happier. We were finally at peace in the house. We were finally over the screaming and yelling and constant fighting about my father's spending and cheating on my mother.

And all I can say is that your dressing is a part of you. I've never known anyone who ever gave it up permanently - I sure tried, and purged (for the sake of MY marriage) was "dress free" for about two years when I finally started dressing again (and there was an intense period of drinking that took place because of what I was denying - no alcohol now though). Maybe there have been people who have given it up for good, but I've never heard of anyone doing it myself.

You CAN still be there for your daughters, and not be married to your wife. I'm there for my daughters, they know it, they love me - and both of them really hate their mothers (two marriages) for what their mothers did to me. And there's nothing to say you can't get custody of your daughters either, at least partial custody.

I can tell you that my 2nd marriage was 23 years long, and ended in some serious misery, with my wife constantly fighting and looking for reasons to fight (and with my dressing, she didn't have to look far). I'd save you that long anguish if I could, but you have to decide for yourself. My friends all told me I had the patience of Job, and that I should have ended the marriage about five years into it.

All I can tell you is my perspective, and what I've seen. It never got better, it got worse and worse as the years dragged on. Hopefully someone else out there has a happier story. But I am here to tell you that you can have a good relationship with your daughters, even if you're not married to the mother of your children. It's up to you how you make that relationship though, you'll have to put the effort into it.

I hope that helps.

Melissa

[sierra_g]

Melissa, I do realize that for many people, marriage is not the answer. For many others though, divorce isn't. I pray I am in the latter category. I would hate to think that something I did ruined my marriage. Our counseling today was hopefully the first of many and I hope it continues to do us good. Yes, there is life after marriage, but it isn't something I look forward to. After failing to think and also failing to think about my wife once again, I have been asked to not sleep in our room tonight.
Tuesday is my next session, and hers is the week after next. I pray that she doesn't kill me before then.

[Mrs. G]

Melissa ~
Its true that our daughters can be OK with out us being married, your absolutely right. If dressing is something Sierra can't live without fine so be it. I don't how ever think I was being unreasonable by expecting the same respect FROM him that I give To him. I was upfront about all my emotional baggage BEFORE we got into a committed relationship. He made requests of me before we could even started dating and expected that I be able to fulfill most of them. I was upfront about things from my past I had dealt with that I NEVER thought would be an issue later in my life, but I loved him enough to let him know who I was now because of my past. I should have at least been able to expect the same from him, whether or not he thought it could happen again. I should have been told about the past enough to know who he was because of it. Again today we fight, not because he wants to put on a dress but because again I find out second hand about things of great importance of his past. He stated he thought he would never tell anyone, that he would take it to the grave. When I compared it to the things in my past that he forced me to deal with, he said I was right that he should have told me and that he was sorry. How many more "SORRY's" I'm I going to have to live through before he finally cuts us lose and leaves for this new self.

Is my anger misplaced that I feel like I have been lied to again? How many more times am I going to hear "this is as bad as it gets" before something else rears its head. I know it is a sin to pray to not be IN love with your husband anymore because you don't know how much more you can take. Around every corner there is another "I'm sorry, I didn't think it would upset you, I never meant to hurt you" yet when I convey that I need time to process, he keeps getting further and further down this unending rabbit hole.

Yes it's true my children may hate me for what I did to him, but I pray to God they don't ever have to go through what I am right now. If I can spare them one second of pain because of the things going on between their father and me then it will have been worth all of it. I don't want a divorce but the more we TALK the more I find out what kind of Man/ Woman I am married to is. If he cant seem to care enough about this marriage and what it is doing to us to just STOP for a little while and wait for me to try and catch up then he doesn't love me the way he keeps professing he does. Actions speak louder than words.

Yes I am angry, and I am sorry if you feel your getting the brunt end of this, but your post while I'm sure was meant with good intentions, did nothing but hurt half of OUR relationship. I am sorry things went for you the way they did. I am happy that your daughters love and respect you. I also don't know anything about the women you were married to, or if you were honest from the beginning with them or not. I DO however know MY husband and that as much as I love him he wasn't. I also know the kind of pain this has cause both of us, but more importantly I am beginning to know where I stand as a priority in his life.

I apologize if this has hurt anyone's feelings, my intentions were not to hurt anyone reading this but to share where I am coming from.

[MandyGG]

Mrs. G,

You are allowed to feel anger for being lied to about his past. That is where my anger stemmed from. I was also 100% open and honest with my husband, only to find out that secrets were being withheld from me. When you ask a question, you expect an honest answer. You do not expect for them to lie when the question is asked and then have to confess it at a later time because it was found out.

What I can offer about this is that most of the CD's that kept it from their spouses do so out of shame. The way that my husband said it to me was, "If I admit it to you, then I am admitting it to myself!" Those were hard words to hear.

Sierra DOES need to give you space and time to heal. I had told him this already. Repeatedly. You need a few moments of normal life.

Please get around to posting on other threads so that you can join us in FAB.

Remember that you are not alone. We are all here for each other.

[ReineD]

Mrs. G.

It's unfortunate that some people believe their own experiences, their own choices, are applicable to everyone else. It's silly when you think about it, since none of us know anything about you and Sierra other than what you've said in a few short posts in this thread. We don't know your backgrounds, your personalities, your strengths and weaknesses, your relationship dynamics, the strength of your feelings toward one another ...

And so please take what you read here with a grain of salt.

... and I completely understand your need to have time to catch up with all of this.

[Chrissy]

Sierra I don't know what to say. I'm also new to the group and from what I learned so far is that there is a lot of us in the same boat, me included. It seems that if we want to be happy we have some hard things to face and do. I'm fed up with living in hiding and feeling ashamed when caught. Mine hasn't even lasted a year.

Gurls in the same boat

[Soriya]

Mrs. G.

It's unfortunate that some people believe their own experiences, their own choices, are applicable to everyone else. It's silly when you think about it, since none of us know anything about you and Sierra other than what you've said in a few short posts in this thread. We don't know your backgrounds, your personalities, your strengths and weaknesses, your relationship dynamics, the strength of your feelings toward one another ...

This!!!!! Thank you Reine!! This sadly is the case all to often in life when it comes to advice people give on any topic. Friends, Family, people with similar situations do so with the purest of intention but most of the time the advice is bad and only clouds the person(s) in needs judgement. In the end, this is between Sierra and Mrs. G and at this point from following this thread, I tend to feel it may be hurting them more then helping. They have a therapist now but giving updates together how things are going in here seems to be making things worse.

As much as I hope for the best for the both of them, I hope this thread falls by the way side so they can do the work they need to together and keep things private with themselves or with people they feel they can trust on here via PM's