SRS Seperatism, Reparative therapy, and the general state of the Trans-Community

[amielts]

"Trans" is a relativism. From a physical point of view, being trans(whatever) and a woman are not mutually-exclusive. And from this standpoint, I find the objection nonsensical. From the political and social points of view, I completely understand the objections to inclusion.

Excluding people for political reasons is never good. And I feel this is what the SRS-based separatists are doing. They want the public to accept them on the grounds they are now post-op. Which leads to hostility against pre-ops and non-ops.

The funny thing about the "separatist" movement is that we all think a line needs to be drawn, but we all have a different place for the line. Kate and people like her want the line at SRS, people like me want the line at transition, and people who are really inclusive want the line at any form of TG expression. I don't think anybody wants the line at fetishism but that would just be silly.

I'm of the mind that the Post-Op crowd shouldn't really be in this fight because they are physically female with no further chance of being "caught". Just another woman as far as I'm concerned and aside from some residual healthcare prejudice their political bell is now just good old fashioned feminism. I think the real political battles are with the transitioners and even though there are wonderful progressive states like California, there are more regressive states like most of the flyovers. A cross dresser is essentially safe because they can just disappear into "male mode" whenever it suits them. A transitioner is out on a limb. My name change will take at least 12 more weeks but in the meantime there is no hiding these breasts, or my face for that matter. When the poo goes down, I don't have any escape from who I am. It's people like me who need protection.

My point is that pre-op and non-op TS need full legal protection, and are the most vulnerable. SRS-based separatists would limit the rights of these people. Since SRS is expensive, most TSs are actually pre-op. Therefore, the SRS-separatist agenda is detrimental to the rights of most TSs, let alone other TG groups. It is the SRS-based separatists that I am very concerned about. I have no problem with transition-based separatists at all, even though I don't agree with separatism itself. At least they don't have a dangerous agenda like preventing pre-op TSs from changing their birth certificate.

SRS-based separatists also sometimes use a straw man argument to sidetrack my points. They say they have different needs to occasional crossdressers. But they don't seem to address my point about pre-op and non-op full-time TSs when I talk to them about it. Pre-op and non-op full-time TSs clearly have similar needs to them, but are often excluded from their definition of TS. I specifically say pre-op and non-op because pre-op TS who are pre-op for 'too long' are often considered non-op by the more judgmental of the separatists.

The medical and legal definitions of TS usually includes the pre-op and non-op too. Unfortunately, the separatists too often excludes them.

[Aprilrain]

Hears voices arguing fading into the distance as she walks away.

Transition is all about me (or you if you're you). I didn't wake up one day and say "gee I really think I ought to join one of the least understood sexual minorities in existence." No, instead life became so unbearable I was willing to end it. Transition was a last ditch effort at life, the rest is icing.

Politicize your life if you wish just don't drag me into it. The "trans community" lives in the same place that unicorns and fairies live.

Social transition is a one heart and mind at a time kinda "war". Just live your life and be good people, don't "trans" people to death and they will soon see that you're basically the same person just nicer

For those of you who have young boys you will know what I'm talking about,
Sensi Woo says the best way to defeat your enemy is to make them your friend

[MC-lite]

not even a little bit of offense...i just wanted to share something with you..

as you can tell, "separatism" is something that one person brought up, and frankly not in a very thoughtful way...

in between your post and the one you referenced, we touch on practically every third rail

politics
autogynephilia
"true" transsexuals vs the rest.
aversion therapy
and the state of the trans-community..yikes!

as you go through all this, you are best served to focus on you, and what you know to be true..i'm just kind of counseling you to keep it simple and not start out your transition by inserting unnecessary baggage into it..

No offense, but Your last line sounds a little bit condescending to me. I wanted to know what was so important about this that it should have been injected into the middle of a post that I was following. I learned a lot about the subject and realized that I -am- on one side of that argument. And that argument is a minefield, just as any religious or political discussion always is. At least I know how to broach the subject if it ever comes up in a conversation. (It probably will...)
A variant of it has already been thrown my way. Now I'm armed with enough facts to provide an intelligent response, one that does not smack of drama and strong emotion.

My gender variance is -not- new to me. I've been dealing with this issue within myself for over 40 years now. I chose not to act on it for reasons that would be deemed as logical and pragmatic.

If something has directly affected me, it's not "unnecessary baggage." It's an issue that raises questions. Some of which were answered here in a healthy exchange of ideas.

What could be better than that?

Warmest Regards,
:Miki.

[LeaP]

Excluding people for political reasons is never good. And I feel this is what the SRS-based separatists are doing. They want the public to accept them on the grounds they are now post-op. Which leads to hostility against pre-ops and non-ops.

My point is that pre-op and non-op TS need full legal protection, and are the most vulnerable. SRS-based separatists would limit the rights of these people. Since SRS is expensive, most TSs are actually pre-op. Therefore, the SRS-separatist agenda is detrimental to the rights of most TSs, let alone other TG groups. It is the SRS-based separatists that I am very concerned about. I have no problem with transition-based separatists at all, even though I don't agree with separatism itself. At least they don't have a dangerous agenda like preventing pre-op TSs from changing their birth certificate.

SRS-based separatists also sometimes use a straw man argument to sidetrack my points. They say they have different needs to occasional crossdressers. But they don't seem to address my point about pre-op and non-op full-time TSs when I talk to them about it. Pre-op and non-op full-time TSs clearly have similar needs to them, but are often excluded from their definition of TS. I specifically say pre-op and non-op because pre-op TS who are pre-op for 'too long' are often considered non-op by the more judgmental of the separatists.

The medical and legal definitions of TS usually includes the pre-op and non-op too. Unfortunately, the separatists too often excludes them.

You are misstating things. Many post-op TS simply wish to live as the women they are, not "be accepted because they are post-op". From one point of view you might say it amounts to the same thing. The true motive belies your agenda and political points, however.

Your statements on rights are problematic. You assume rights that are neither defined nor recognized in law. One cannot be said to be "denying" rights that do not exist. Mere assertion does not make something real. The notion of a right attached to a bureaucratic artifact like a birth certificate is problematic in itself. That doesn't invalidate legitimate concerns about documentation issues, of course, but those are amenable to solutions that are not based in notions of rights. In turn, that answers your needs and straw-man points.

Your statement on medical definitions is not accurate. Transsexualism has been regarded in spectrum terms for a very long time. See the original Benjamin scale.

Hears voices arguing fading into the distance as she walks away.

Transition is all about me (or you if you're you). I didn't wake up one day and say "gee I really think I ought to join one of the least understood sexual minorities in existence." No, instead life became so unbearable I was willing to end it. Transition was a last ditch effort at life, the rest is icing. ...

What she said.

Lea

[Julia_in_Pa]

Miki, everyone

Separatism as it relates to the plight of the TS and IS communities is needed at this time.
The general public as it stands currently still sees transsexual issues and transition through the lens of sexual fetishism and the choice of the mentally ill.
The process of living day to day 24-7 for the newly transitioned person is difficult beyond description for those that have not transitioned.
Every transitioned female seems to be asked the same thing over and over again. " isn't this just so you can fulfill a fantasy? " or " cross dressers are just that, cross dressers you don't need protection for that. " .

It's the same tired questions over and over and over. Transitioning and transitioned TS and IS people do not need their lives complicated further by aligning with pan sexuals, cross dressing fetishists or fantasy dressers who need nothing concerning legal protections yet concerning public perception taint the TS and IS persons legitimacy in the eyes of the general public.

We don't switch genders constantly like Pansexuals causing confusion to the general public. We don't dress as someone of the opposite sex, masturbate then discard clothing.
Yet this permeates the public's perception off what Transsexuality and Intersexuality is.

Many of us educate to correct the public's mistake but it's extremely difficult for the average person to wrap their head around for a few minutes when it actually takes hours to obtain an average grasp of what this is all about.

Sadly years of Springer and other garbage media have made being transsexual and intersexed concerning transition extremely difficult as it pertains to the political climate.

We don't need to be beaten down and dismissed further by an unaccepting public by aligning ourselves with the Transgender umbrella that houses people and conditions that have nothing in common with transitioned or transitioning TS and IS people.



Julia

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Thats ok mikeala...my thoughts were based simply on what you said...

If transition/full time (whatever we call it) was easy you would have done it along time ago..regardless of your past, this stuff is of no value to you right now....I know this..i waited too..

I call it sharing experience, you call it condescension.....so be it..
I stand by my comment and i truly wish you all the best

No worries.

+++++++

Amiel don't you see what you are saying?.."i have no problem with transition based separatists...its the SRS based separatists i'm worried about.."...I promise that argument goes nowhere fast...all you are saying is give me mine...

if you want to be politically active, you must make arguments that are convincing and draw people to your conclusion...and as you demonstrate, politics ALWAYS ends up truly being about one thing...self interest..

[CharleneT]

This all seems like arguments for arguing sake ... as well as being pretty close to useless in the everyday life of the average TS person. I do not feel like I need to go out in war against the oppressors (separatists??). Heck, all I really want is to get on with my life as it is This "threat" is just semantics.

[Inna]

Well, here is another one, since we are on to new territory: [SIZE="4"]"TRANSLITICALLY CORRECT"[/SIZE]

[Frances]

Excluding people for political reasons is never good. And I feel this is what the SRS-based separatists are doing. They want the public to accept them on the grounds they are now post-op. Which leads to hostility against pre-ops and non-ops.

My point is that pre-op and non-op TS need full legal protection, and are the most vulnerable. SRS-based separatists would limit the rights of these people. Since SRS is expensive, most TSs are actually pre-op. Therefore, the SRS-separatist agenda is detrimental to the rights of most TSs, let alone other TG groups. It is the SRS-based separatists that I am very concerned about. I have no problem with transition-based separatists at all, even though I don't agree with separatism itself. At least they don't have a dangerous agenda like preventing pre-op TSs from changing their birth certificate.

SRS-based separatists also sometimes use a straw man argument to sidetrack my points. They say they have different needs to occasional crossdressers. But they don't seem to address my point about pre-op and non-op full-time TSs when I talk to them about it. Pre-op and non-op full-time TSs clearly have similar needs to them, but are often excluded from their definition of TS. I specifically say pre-op and non-op because pre-op TS who are pre-op for 'too long' are often considered non-op by the more judgmental of the separatists.

The medical and legal definitions of TS usually includes the pre-op and non-op too. Unfortunately, the separatists too often excludes them.

How is anyone excluding anyone, and from what? What power do post-op women have over anyone? I don't get this at all. I don't want the public to accept me because I am post-op, I don't want people to KNOW that I am post-op. What happened in your personal life to make you react this way? You use strong words like words hate, despise, opposition. Where is all this anger and obsessive thought coming from? Kelly offered a good analysis, but I am curious to know from you personally.

I have never met post-ops with agendas other than to live a normal life. How is a post-op woman going to prevent pre-ops from changing their birth certificate. Is anyone going to the House of Commons in Ontario to testify that it's a mistake? People are entitled to have an opinion about it, and opinions change over time. Mine has in regards to the DSM. Only fanatics impose their view on others.

Transsexuals are seen by the Canadian medical establishement as mentally ill people that cannot be cured by psychiatric methods (but they sure try). What power can we have? I know post-op trans women who do not want to associate with non-ops, but how do they exclude them? If anything, they exclude themselves from the larger community, not the other way around.

Amiel, if you want your birth certificate changed without surgery, lobby the instances that do have power, not post-op women trying to live their lives. And please stop villifying people.

[Sandra1746]

I may get flamed but; forming narrow definitions that exclude certain people because they don't "fit" one's definitions or categories is NOT productive. The whole point of this site, and the T** movements is to have public acceptance of people who are "different". We do ourselves no favors by encouraging division and dissension within our ranks. And we play into the hands of our opponents.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions BUT your right to enforce your opinion ends at your mind and body. Everyone is different and acceptance is the best principle.

Let a thousand flowers bloom,
Sandra1746

[Katesback]

Ya know something. When I see people that say that somone that has testicles and fits the exact definition of MALE is fighting to get some right to change thier birth certificate to FEMALE I think they are nuts!

Its all ok to get passport and drivers license changed and that will get you a job but damm it you got testicles and can be a father you got no right to be called FEMALE on your birth certificate!!!! If you feel you do your nuts! You dont deserve the status of female on your birth certificate!!!!!!!!!!

Katie

[Aprilrain]

I wanted to know what was so important about this that it should have been injected into the middle of a post that I was following. .

NOTHING, there is nothing important about a problem that doesn't actually exist. the idea that there is some conspiracy against transpeople of any description from any other group of people is as mythical as the idea of a "trans community" itself. There are TSes, some have surgery some don't, some are loud mouthed bitches some aren't, some go to support group meetings some don't so on and so forth.

That having been said I can't wait to have SRS so I can get my secret decoder ring

Oh and Kate you do know there are states that don't give a shit about a your little surgery right????
I'm from Ohio, I will NEVER be allowed to change the male designation on my BC. So enough with the BC nonsense.

[Badtranny]

The medical and legal definitions of TS usually includes the pre-op and non-op too. Unfortunately, the separatists too often excludes them.

...but really, at the end of the day who cares what a group of post-op trannies thinks about non-ops? There are some that are so enamored of their new vaginas that they don't even realize they still look like men. These people are about as worrisome as a gust of wind in regard to my rights. Here in beautiful California, SRS isn't required for anything except vaginal sex, so I'm a pre-op/non-op that is in the process of changing name and gender on EVERYTHING. I'm sure that may unsettle a certain contingent of trans women, but I'm sure that they will get over it in due time.

There is not a single group of trans people that is big enough to make a show of force politically. We are literally just bitching at each other over things that mean nothing if not less to the rest of the world. Now if EVERY CD were to jump in the TG fight we might have some political clout, but most of them typically vote conservative anyway so on second thought it would be best if they stayed out of it.

[Frances]

NOTHING, there is nothing important about a problem that doesn't actually exist. the idea that there is some conspiracy against transpeople of any description from any other group of people is as mythical as the idea of a "trans community" itself. There are TSes, some have surgery some don't, some are loud mouthed bitches some aren't, some go to support group meetings some don't so on and so forth.

That's what I mean. This Saturday is Trans Pride Day in Montréal. I will be seeing a lot of trans folks, including women with penises and men with vaginas. Other than that, there are some trans individuals that I associate with and see once in a while. "Trans community" is an oxymoron, especially for post-ops. As a matter of fact, "anything-op" stops being a preoccupation after the op. Relationships, money, career and quality of life become more important. There is no conspiracy!

[Bree-asaurus]

...but really, at the end of the day who cares what a group of post-op trannies thinks about non-ops? There are some that are so enamored of their new vaginas that they don't even realize they still look like men. These people are about as worrisome as a gust of wind in regard to my rights. Here in beautiful California, SRS isn't required for anything except vaginal sex, so I'm a pre-op/non-op that is in the process of changing name and gender on EVERYTHING. I'm sure that may unsettle a certain contingent of trans women, but I'm sure that they will get over it in due time.

There is not a single group of trans people that is big enough to make a show of force politically. We are literally just bitching at each other over things that mean nothing if not less to the rest of the world. Now if EVERY CD were to jump in the TG fight we might have some political clout, but most of them typically vote conservative anyway so on second thought it would be best if they stayed out of it.

To add onto what Melissa is saying...

Part of transitioning usually includes obtaining the ability to not give a FLYING @#$% what other people think. Why are you letting such a negligible portion of the trans community (which is already an insanely small fraction of society) get under your skin?

You mentioned something about just being able to live our lives and do what we have to do to be happy. Why don't you do that and stop complaining that not everybody thinks the way you do?

[Marleena]

There is not a single group of trans people that is big enough to make a show of force politically. We are literally just bitching at each other over things that mean nothing if not less to the rest of the world. Now if EVERY CD were to jump in the TG fight we might have some political clout, but most of them typically vote conservative anyway so on second thought it would be best if they stayed out of it.

Lol..not sure on the voting thing Melissa. But there are quite a few CD girls on this board opening doors for TS ladies already. You see the general public doesn't know if they are looking at a CD or TS woman. They are showing the public there is nothing to fear. Yet they still don't credit for that. Many TS women still look at the whole CD grouping with disdain.

It's actually okay TS women are fighting amongst themselves here because it leaves the CD women alone. So carry on.

[Bree-asaurus]

It's actually okay TS women are fighting amongst themselves here because it leaves the CD women alone. So carry on.

Yes... because that's what we trannies do... sit around all day waiting to find a CD to give a hard time... ?!?!?! WHAT?!?!?!?!

[ReineD]

Amielts, I googled "separatist vs. inclusionist" after reading your posts and did find blogs discussing this mostly by people like you who feel marginalized. But I didn't get the impression there is an organized "separatist" movement or anything, just a handful of people with strong opinions making it sound much worse than it really is. You need to pay attention to the hundreds of other, more quiet voices who simply go about their lives making the decisions that are best for them.

The debate is opinion-based only. There are no laws or medical practices, as far as I can see, that are actually being changed to favor post-op transwomen.

[LeaP]

How is anyone excluding anyone, and from what? What power do post-op women have over anyone? I don't get this at all ....

I have never met post-ops with agendas other than to live a normal life. How is a post-op woman going to prevent pre-ops from changing their birth certificate. ...

I know post-op trans women who do not want to associate with non-ops, but how do they exclude them? If anything, they exclude themselves from the larger community, not the other way around.

Amiel, if you want your birth certificate changed without surgery, lobby the instances that do have power, not post-op women trying to live their lives. And please stop villifying people.

Exactly.

The entire "separatist" framing is itself a straw-man. The questions at hand are whether or not TG people should be able to get amended documents and by what means. The post-op TS population is NOT doing anything to prevent TG people pursuing that, certainly not as a movement. A very small handful of individuals voicing an opinion do not a movement make.

Trying to posture a separatist movement is an attempt to portray the TS population as divisive. That amounts to a guilting approach when coupled with rhetoric about inclusiveness. The facts are: no movement, no guilt about living normal lives, and not much interest.

I would add one point about co-opting. While I don't know how big the TG population is, it is almost certainly many times the size of the TS population. Why then the interest in TS political participation, since their added numbers aren't compelling? Because they are better-known and understood by the general public. Their addition would lend the effort a legitimacy that the public is (probably) unwilling to grant the TG population, at least as it extends to the documentation question.

This Saturday is Trans Pride Day in Montréal. I will be seeing a lot of trans folks, including women with penises and men with vaginas.

Thank you for the prompt about trans men. Trans men may or may not get one of the various procedures designed to give them a phallus. They all wind up retaining their vaginas, however. This is the other side of Kate's testicular test. To be consistent, one would have to maintain that they should not be able to get BCs amended because they retain female anatomy. I don't believe that and I don't think most others do, either.

Lea

[Marleena]

Yes... because that's what we trannies do... sit around all day waiting to find a CD to give a hard time... ?!?!?! WHAT?!?!?!?!

Not directed at you Bree or anyone in particular Bree. We know of a couple that have that have complete disdain for CDers.

[Kathryn Martin]

I have no problem with transition-based separatists at all, even though I don't agree with separatism itself. At least they don't have a dangerous agenda like preventing pre-op TSs from changing their birth certificate.

So the distinction is drawn between a gender variant person of the crossdressing variety who can be excluded from protections but a gender variant person who has a cross-gender identification but has male reproductive organs either fully or partially (i.e. orchiectomy) cannot be excluded from protections. The reason you give for this is

"At least they don't have a dangerous agenda like preventing pre-op TSs from changing their birth certificate.

.

Especially in Ontario there is a simple and very useable solution for pre-op and non-op persons namely get your drivers license changed to reflect your gender correctly. Passports can be obtained with the correct gender marker in Canada for a transition period of two years provided surgery is obtained in the end. The reason why the inclusion of gender identity and gender expression in the Canadian Human Rights Act and various provincial Acts have been on hold is because of it being called the Bathroom Bill, which essentially expresses a fear of persons with penises entering women washrooms.

The main argument put forward by what you call "separatists" is that if the political focus is on gender variant persons by conflating their conditions with the transsexual condition, health care issues for transsexual persons are not correctly addressed. The "radical separatists" attempt to achieve that by calling anyone who is not them everything under the sun but women. The reality is however, that because of the conflation of the separate conditions of gender variant and transsexual persons society has so far managed to deny health care at an appropriate level to all of us. By viewing expression, identity and disability based on in-congruent reproductive organs one condition, society is able to maintain that we chose to be the way we are and effectively deny our existence as we know it. The issues for pre-op transsexuals is one of inadequate health care coverage to aleviate their condition. The issue for non-op transsexuals is either that they are gender variant that is they desire to remain biologically male, is that there needs to be a recognition of that fact by both the persons affected as well as society, or if an individual health conditions prevents surgery because of the risks then adequate health care is necessary to ensure the closest approximation to being who they need to be.

Gender variant persons need protections to ensure that their expression is protected and cannot be used against them in any context. Legislation is were it is at, by ensuring their protection.

In my view it so dangerous to simplify these issues. There are no "separatists" in reality, and there is woeful lack of understanding within the "trans-community" of the health care and public policy issues that are involved in these matters. If everyone focused their efforts on resolving those issues instead of carrying the flag of whatever stripe maybe we would actually get somewhere. I distrust flags, they always kill people.

[Lorileah]

"and when they came for me there was no one to stand up." Isolationism hasn't worked before. Minorities don't do well alienating those who are around them and hold empatheic and sympathetic views. Focusing on things that are stereotypic does not help your cause (and all members of the TG community, and that includes every person who does not fit gender stereotypes) deserves protection and rights equal to any other person. When you exclude yourself you are basically stating that you agree that some people are not equal to you. If educating the world was easy, then everyone would be on the same page. It is hard to break old habits, it is hard to unlearn something. It takes time and it takes patience and energy. It works a lot better if you have allies, even if you believe the allies are freaks and perverts (and who decides that?...You do because you were TAUGHT that by another who was narrow minded).

I totally agree with Melissa's analogy of the line. When you draw the line so close to you though, you don't have much room to defend yourself and you cannot get many around you to help.

[LeaP]

The issues for pre-op transsexuals is one of inadequate health care coverage to aleviate their condition. The issue for non-op transsexuals is either that they are gender variant that is they desire to remain biologically male, is that there needs to be a recognition of that fact by both the persons affected as well as society, or if an individual health conditions prevents surgery because of the risks then adequate health care is necessary to ensure the closest approximation to being who they need to be.

You would have non-ops "gender-variant". From a public understanding and concern perspective, that may make some sense. But the obvious should be stated also:

1) This approach ignores other aspects of male anatomy. Does that trivialize identity (or at least official identity) into bathroom concerns and similar? Strictly speaking, from a physical standpoint a post-op is also gender variant.

2) There is no gender variant category for official documents, unless that is part of what you would propose in legislation.

Would you be satisfied with a gender variant designation yourself were you not to get SRS? You are clearly, completely a woman now. I understand the difficulties in weeding out those who arguably should be denied a female marker (take your least favorite category pick) - but it should be possible.

"and when they came for me there was no one to stand up." Isolationism hasn't worked before.

Lorileah, this isn't a clear case of isolationism at all. People are disagreeing on mutually-exclusive points, those that prevent combining of efforts. In fact, if Kathryn is right, TSs inclusion in the transgender movement has directly resulted in denial of care. Coalitions dilute focus and results by masking differences, as valuable as they can be otherwise.

Lea

[Kaitlyn Michele]

...but really, at the end of the day who cares what a group of post-op trannies thinks about non-ops? There are some that are so enamored of their new vaginas that they don't even realize they still look like men.

There is not a single group of trans people that is big enough to make a show of force politically. We are literally just bitching at each other over things that mean nothing if not less to the rest of the world. Now if EVERY CD were to jump in the TG fight we might have some political clout, but most of them typically vote conservative anyway so on second thought it would be best if they stayed out of it.

Even Iff th CD's all got totegehter and voited in one big block it would still be a dropp in the buket

sorry for the spellling ...i was staring at my virgina

[Katesback]

Are you teaching your vagina to talk Katlyn? LOL

Aprilrain I was very clearly talking about pre op or non op males wanting to get thier birth certificate changed prior to surgery. I was not talking about Post op women in some states that cannot change thier birth certificate. That dear is a different topic.

I still am in awe that there are nut cases that think it is acceptable and want to fight for the right to change thier birth certificate to female while they have testicles. I sit here shaking my head. Perhaps people like this are why so many post op women vanish into the normal world and abandon the trans community. I doubt these people realize the ramifications of the fight they are working towards. I mean if they got thier legislation passed then the rest of society would have to figure out what male and female is. Is it in your head? My god what a confusing mess. Sorry nut cases but I and the rest of society wont accept your push for such stupid changes.

Ya want a passport and drivers license that says female thats fine. Totally cool. Thats all you need. A birth certificate though is absurd. Does that make me a separatist? No because truthfully my view would mirror 99.9% of society wishes and you nut cases are the ones that are separatists.

Katie