Thanks everyone......
My wife took this pic in Panara, note the carrot cake muffin in the foreground
Ironically we were talking about her new "boyfriend"(she would be saying, "he's not my boyfriend! yeah OK baby doll
) and how she likes his arms and how much she liked her "husbands" arms. I said, "what? You don't like my arms?" "Not the same", she says
Last edited by Aprilrain; 05-03-2012 at 06:37 AM.
Avatars are breaking out all over. Julia, you look terrific.
Lea
Lea
Yes, gender identity is in our heads. This is the WPATH's definition:Originally Posted by Katesback
I won't enter the debate as to whether non-ops should or should not have their birth certificates altered. There is much to consider in this debate and it is over my head at the moment. But I will say that your comments are hurtful to our members who do fully identify as female, fully live as female, and who have not had SRS nor do they foresee having it in the near future (for a variety of reasons).Gender identity: A person’s intrinsic sense of being male (a boy or a man), female (a girl or woman), or an alternative gender (e.g., boygirl, girlboy, transgender, genderqueer, eunuch).
AT least you could stop referring to non-ops as nut cases, or men, and stop using the pronoun "he" when they do identify as females, and stop blaming them for the post-op TSs who leave the community and go stealth. You can disagree with their political views, but must you be so insulting?
Last edited by ReineD; 05-04-2012 at 12:57 AM.
Reine
I arrived late at this BBQ but after reading your post April I said to myself " This says it all"Hears voices arguing fading into the distance as she walks away.
Transition is all about me (or you if you're you). I didn't wake up one day and say "gee I really think I ought to join one of the least understood sexual minorities in existence." No, instead life became so unbearable I was willing to end it. Transition was a last ditch effort at life, the rest is icing.
Politicize your life if you wish just don't drag me into it. The "trans community" lives in the same place that unicorns and fairies live.
Social transition is a one heart and mind at a time kinda "war". Just live your life and be good people, don't "trans" people to death and they will soon see that you're basically the same person just nicer
For those of you who have young boys you will know what I'm talking about,
Sensi Woo says the best way to defeat your enemy is to make them your friend
Kels
Born female intended
" Don't die with your music still in you!"
One of the easiest ways to discredit others is calling them crazy, or in this case nut cases. The intention is to do two things, firstly invalidate anything the so called "nut case" has to say, and secondly to divert from the actual real issues that require discussion. One of the reasons that persons with mental illness cannot have a voice in our society and have been struggling so hard to find their voice is that whatever they have to say is from the outset discredited. Calling someone crazy robs them of their voice. This is what is being done here and is really not acceptable. There are real issues that need to be resolved.
By the way that quote from Wpath is amazing. It is of general applicability to every member of society.
I think this is a very good thread and if we can keep it about the issues, we all might learn something.
"Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)
This is helpful. There are 3 concepts here: desire, social utility, and identification means.
I understand the desire distinction you make. I tend to agree that for some motives it is definitive. Not so for others. Surgical fear, perhaps. Maybe indifference because the individual sees other characteristics as definitive - but who is to say who is right? The real problem here is that you can't construct a rational bureaucratic process around desire.
Your cite of historical utility is true, but one can fairly ask the modern utility of identification using characteristics like gender markers. The easiest answer is that gender neatly bisects the population and actually fits 99% of the population. Combine that with other characteristics (e.g., hair, eyes, height, weight, etc.) and even with the problems inherent in any one of them, you have a system usable for a myriad of purposes, from voting to prescriptions to permits to such things as building access - whatever. Mistakes occur, but the system basically works.
The system, however, is non-technological. To some extent we are having a debate on a topic that will be irrelevant in a few years. The goal in any identity system is to associate an individual with a permission (construed positively or negatively). A system based on only superficial visual characteristics might work well enough, but is easily exceeded in accuracy by better, biometric approaches. Biometrics, in reducing the identity possibilities to essentially one, make population-based approaches like characteristic lists irrelevant. Identity questions change from "are you reasonably who you claim, based on this list of characteristics", to "you are permissioned (or not)". In other words, identity itself is no longer the issue! In turn, that brings rights issues to the fore where they belong.
So, do we need gender markers? Soon, not for identity. Whether or not such things will be associated with individuals will depend on their utility for other purposes.
Lea
Lea
Whenever the word "rights" is used, for there to be any meaning, you must be specific..
Self identification is our apparent holy grail, but the idea of "What does that get you in life" is different for each of us..both in our own inner dialogue and in our day to day life..(they are not independent)
it matters..
calling any ts person a "separatist" ignores that persons "right" to be different than you..
saying a "separatist" is hurting your rights ignores the fact that YOU are hurting the "rights" of the separatist....after all, if i insist that my srs was neccessary for me survive because i am transsexual, and you say , nope, i am transsexual too and i didn't need srs to survive, then you have pulled the rug out from under me.
Our interests are not aligned.. and so it is on each of us to try to convince the other...
It's really really interesting that the person that started all this in the other thread commented that to her being a "transition separatist" was ok with her...how convenient..
The only way to communicate effectively about this is to be specific
..comparing "separatists" to the evil psychologists and religious haters is just as worthless as using terms like nutjob and crazy... it serves no purpose and we cannot benefit from a conversation like that..
and the conversation is inherently complicated and difficult, even for us! imagine a person reading all this for the first time.= (ie most people).
...as lea alludes to, we must communicate based on our characteristics..if you are not obviously one gender or another, you have a complicated life...
people that have transitioned, got surgery, got their marker, got their birth records changed no long have this difficulty..in fact, talking about it outside of support forums and therapy groups is boring and unneccessary, thinking of myself as a transgendered person seems wrong...... its a transcendent thing that frankly came unexpected...
i say feed the poor, and i bet so do you...and yet we may vehemently disagree on what the best way to do it is..and if we are both poor, who should step aside so the other can eat first??
Thanks RD but speaking as a potential non-op and very likely one of the nut cases she's referring to; I don't mind at all. She is entitled to her opinion and as Kaitlyn said sooooo eloquently, we all have our own measure of what's important. I totally understand the value of SRS to some people and I would never suggest that it was merely cosmetic or in any way optional for some of my sisters. Personally I will admit that my fear of the surgery trumps my rather mild desire for it. I've said before that I came to terms with my extra appendage when I was very young and since then have not been bothered by it. I did have some rather serious body issues, that were VERY important to me that I deal with but the pickle does not make me feel masculine. I may someday go ahead and finish this thing, but I'm not compelled and my therapist said it wasn't worth the risk if I didn't HAVE to do it. I think she's right. We all have our priorities and for me, my face and body were the main strain.
My physical status is a personal choice even if my TS status is not. People will either understand or they won't but in a few more weeks I will be a legal female so the opinions of other trans people are interesting and sometimes informative, but they have zero influence on my life and decisions.
Well said, friend. If someone -even someone within the trans community - wants to think less of me and belittle me because I don't think and act the same, then let them. I won't be made to fear and I won't be made to feel shame. Spent far too long in all that already.
I'm not saying that SRS isn't important to the TSs who have gone through it and I understand why they see themselves differently from those who haven't. They've made a commitment that is HUGE.
But, this doesn't give anyone the green light to be downright insulting and inflammatory in a way that is hidden behind "opinion". Surely transitioned TSs can voice their opinions without doing this, and without calling full-time non-op TSs male nut cases?
What would it be like if we had an outspoken member who repeatedly (almost in every post), year after year, came in here and said that no matter what transitioners do, it makes no difference because their surgeries are cosmetic only, they are still male no matter how hard they try to be women, because they can't have babies, and further they are nut cases for believing themselves to be women? Over and over again, always using the pronoun "he"? And what if a few respected members of this forum agreed with this person? I don't think it would go down all that well.
You and some of our members here are confident in yourselves and you can allow Kate's comments to roll off your backs, but we do have other members who are bothered by the disrespect. They contact me instead and ask that I delete Kate's posts. I won't do this since Kate isn't breaking any forum rules outright, but I can appeal to a sense of decorum and respect in a public forum.
EDIT
To those of you who are assiduously keeping your discussion to the legal and social aspects of the topic, I apologize for taking this a bit off track by addressing behavioral issues. But I just had to say it. Hopefully it will make a difference.
Last edited by ReineD; 05-04-2012 at 11:32 AM.
Reine
Well if someone were to say that no matter what one does they are always Male I can only say I did everything I could to not be male and if I still dont meet thier opinion for whatever reason then oh well such is life.
I have said it before and that is one has to have a thick skin if they are going to transition and if something someone on the internet says bothers ya then you probably need to think about things a bit, because the big bad world can be ever worse than anything I have ever said.
Theres only been one time I was ever bothered by what someone said here and that was when they said it sould be ok to get a female birth certificate prior to SRS. That did bother me. Its like they want something for nothing. Ya got to earn it otherwise its not worth a crap. Its like a slap across the face to those that have paid the price for the right to get the correct birth certificate.
Katie
Last edited by ReineD; 05-04-2012 at 11:43 AM. Reason: There's no need to target members specifically. I'm editing out your last paragraph.
Kate, like I said, you're entitled to your feelings and your opinions. But you don't need to be insulting.
I will be editing your comments in the future and I will be snipping out words like "nut cases" if you don't stop. And if you keep it up, you'll be receiving infractions. Enough infractions can lead to a ban.
As much as it is your requirement that everyone here should have a thick skin, they don't always. Take this as a fair warning.
Last edited by ReineD; 05-04-2012 at 11:49 AM.
Reine
There may or may not be good reason to limit birth certificate gender marker amendment to post-ops. I haven't made up my mind on that. But "earning it" isn't a reason to which I'd give the time of day. The only requirement for a birth certificate is live birth itself. GGs don't "earn" their BCs.
Lea
Aaahhhh to the root we have arrived, yes?
A gender designation isn't a credential that requires a prescribed number of hours before it can be "earned". My birth certificate will be changed along with everything else because there is a little check box on the court paperwork. There are criteria that need to be met before I can get the Judge's blessing but SRS is not one of them. Is that my fault? It simply isn't necessary in my wonderful home state of California, and frankly I would be crazy to not take advantage of every little opportunity the "system" allows me. It's inconceivable that I would meet a local TS who is NOT changing her gender markers until she undergoes SRS out of some misplaced sense of wanting to earn it.
If my birth certificate feels like a slap in your face, than you should really do some soul searching. It's kinda like you're saying; "Doh! NOW they tell me."
I have to agree with you Melissa about what you said about this comment from Kate.
This is especially a problem I have noted coming from older members of the transsexual
community who had to earned their wings under ultra-conservative gatekeepers and who
believe that any different path to transition or gender expression is wrong.
But then the TG Borg want a more informed consent model that places doctors under
severe legal implications if they do so. And the more this agenda is pushed the more
reluctant the doctors will be to deal with us because of how many times they have been
sued. It is the litigation cases that have forced gender centres to introduced a much more
conservative approach to gender transition that makes it harder for everyone to transition.
These are some of problems we are trying to tackle right now in Australia
because it has completely splintered and fractured the entire trans community.
I can see both sides of the dispute between the TS separatists and also the transgender borg
with both sides refusing to give and inch. Personally I want no part of this interpersonal political
dispute but right now I am right in the thick of it here in Australia trying to play mediator since
I founded a new national trans health action group called TransCare Australia.
I have come under fire from the borg who made accusations that our agenda with healthcare was
exclusive of anyone who wasn't a transsexual. This is a load of crap. Many different people in the
trans community have issues relating to their gender identity or expression and have health issues
that relate to the stigma they have to deal with in society.
But there is hope on the horizon because the TG borg is starting to more about the health & well being
of the trans community rather than focusing on legal rights and other interpersonal political issues like
they so often do. Hopefully both sides will benefit from my groups research to understand what we do
have in common with each other and what are the most important health issues that need to be addressed.
All the fighting in bickering, personal attacks & smeer campaigns etc only weakens our agenda,
and it does nothing to strengthen either side's campaign. So I want to know when some people
here are going to stop acting like children and decide to become an adult?
Last edited by Melody Moore; 05-04-2012 at 01:15 PM.
"Judging a person does not define who they are - it defines who you are"
"Don't be so Serious, if you can't laugh at yourself, call me....... I'll laugh at you!"
"Haters don't really hate you, they hate themselves, because you are a reflection of what they want to be"
"The most happiest people in this world don't need the best of everything, they just make the best of everything"'
Find me on Facebook
All this is starting to make me think i should get working on having my birth certificate changed
I like to think that our similarities are more important than our differences.
What makes us similar? In short, we are not cisgender and can't become cisgender. We can (be) become more masculine or less masculine, or more feminine or less feminine. We can (be) become more male or less male, or more female or less female. We can even transition from one sex and gender type to another. The thing we are not and cannot become is cisgender. This is the very significant tie that binds us whether we like it or not.
P.S. Try liking it. It really isn't so bad as some people report.
Yeah... it's like... when do you ever need to use the thing anyway?
Thankfully mine's in California... and despite some people thinking I shouldn't get it changed without SRS (because it's just NOT FAIR), apparently CA law will let me
What I find sad is how you, TS' & Inter-sexed "extremists" and certain Quacks in the medical field all seem to share one thing in common.
Being Male / MtF excentric in your thinking, as if FtM's just simply do not exist.
1) Where do FtM's fit into your neat little "No Surgery = No Birth Cert" line of thinking?
FtM SRS is quite frankly still in the stone age compared to the MtF equivalent.
Causing more then a few Males to choose to not have it done.
Are they any less of a man because they choose not to have shitty surgery done?
Should these Males be forced to live with an F on their Birth Cert until such time the results of FtM SRS is on par with the MtF equivalent?
You can't deny it to one side and not the other side, or can you?
2) So a drivers license and passport - everyday used items of ID are OK to you.
But something most people will never see, a Birth Cert is ABSURD?
Why the big hang up on a B/C? Why draw the line there?
Hell maybe you should have to drop trou at the local DMV.
Wouldn't want any "fake" "nut job" ladies getting a free ride there either? Right?
Hell, I have an idea!
Why not revoke all of it. No D/L, PP, B/C, even name changes until after SRS.
Just to be sure those nut jobs and fakes out there don't get anything they don't deserve. Right? Got to keep the barbarians at the gate don't we?
3) Because SRS is the end all, be all to being a woman right?
Because you will always be a man if you got bob and the twins.
So SRS = Woman, and nothing less will do, right?
So even if a MtF "puts the cart in front of the mule" and gets SRS before anything else she is now a Woman. Right?
So, She can walk around with a 5 O'clock shadow, a body full of man hair and/or be flat chested, walk, talk, act, speak like a man, ect, ect. and still call herself a woman because none of that other stuff really matters. Does it?
Because according to you - all that matters is that she had SRS correct?
Now who is being an "absurd" "nut job"?
My point: There is more to being a Woman [or a Man for FtM's] then just SRS.
So according to that [again -flawed] argument I guess FtM's can and never will be seen as Men because they just can not currently get a proper set thru SRS?
Oh my, there goes those pesky FtM's screwing up the works again.
4) News Flash sweety - this "rest of society" you speak of and try to align yourself with sadly think ANY changes of ANY kind are ABSURD and that ALL of US. Non-op, Pre-op and Post-op TS' are all "Nut Jobs" "Freaks" and "Fakes".
And would like nothing better then to turn the bible thumping clock back to 1950.
Last edited by Sammy777; 05-05-2012 at 03:36 AM.
Warning: This post may contain up to 63% post consumer recycled Sarcasm ... or Peanuts."
"Sammy, really next time do try to make your point without being quite so abrasive." -RD
Well written Sammy. Keep it coming. What is absurd to one may be totally acceptable to another. The mature and comfortable in their skin ones don't need to make there point so drastically all the damn time. We know where some people stand from their posts from a long time ago, "I only come here for the fun." I really think someone needs that fun more than they want to admit it. This is a support site and we are ready to help when asked.
Sammy I dont believe I said that there was not other things to being a woman besides getting SRS. What is scarry is someone with a female birth certificate that can be a father because there are testicles between thier legs. Even scarrier is someone that is an activist out there fighting for legislation to change the birth certificates to allow this. I realize it is human nature to want more and more. I also realize that hard fought for rights can be taken away and I can just see legislators saying enough when this comes up.
As far as needing my birth certificate. Funny someone asked that because yesterday I needed both of them as well as my surgery letter and my name change order. Why? Well I had one final piece of paper I needed to get changed and that was with the Federal Aviation Administration. So after years of getting SRS I went to the office with the most warped sense of humor I could muster knowing I was going to have to show linkage to the old me. The guy was cool, he comparred the old and the new birth certificates, and other things. Why did I need to furnish the birth certificates? Well for a gender change the damm FAA says the surgery letter has to have my name and address on it. My address is not on the letter so I brought further data to back up who I claimed to be.
It appears the federal government does not allow people with testicles to use female! Hmmmm I wonder why that is?
Thankfully this is the last time I will need to do this. I have some savings bonds in my old name so I perhaps I will have to do it again one more time but god its nice to be done for the most part.
PS. Sammy to answer your question about F to M. Considering the surgeries available I dont blame them for not getting bottom surgery. As I have said before you do what you can and thats all you can do. If they have ovaries and can be a mother then they are still female on thier birth certificate as far as I am concerned. Hope that clarifies my stance.
Last edited by Katesback; 05-05-2012 at 08:15 AM.
not true Kate, my medical and pilot certificate both indicate female. all it took was a PROPER letter from a therapist NOT a BC
You really are ignorant with blinkers on Kate and see things in your own idealistic way. Who the hell are you to judge?
April posted a very valid point and also the federal government here in Australia allows us to be recognised now
on our passports as females without SRS. Laws are changing every day, so hollar and scream all you like because
it won't change the tide of trans* health & well being and legal reforms that are sweeping the world right now.
So I suggested you get with the 21st century & read the WPATH Standards of Care & give up your prehistoric agenda.
Last edited by Melody Moore; 05-05-2012 at 01:59 PM.
"Judging a person does not define who they are - it defines who you are"
"Don't be so Serious, if you can't laugh at yourself, call me....... I'll laugh at you!"
"Haters don't really hate you, they hate themselves, because you are a reflection of what they want to be"
"The most happiest people in this world don't need the best of everything, they just make the best of everything"'
Find me on Facebook
Sometimes people can not have surgery for medical reasons yet present as a female all the time. Having to present a male birth certificate can leave them open to discrimination.
Kate I understand your stance from the quote above but I have a question
If I am brought up as a male and I later decide I want to obtain a birth certificate as female
if I have a penis and ovaries where would this leave me in your opinion
Well Meoldy I actually sent you a private letter you never did answer. I had asked you to educate me about this intersex thing. As I said you didnt respond to the letter so I guess I dont get to be educated about this intersex thing.
I was clear about explaining why I showed my birth certificate April. My doctors SRS letter does not have my address on it. You can research the specifics on the FAA website. It says you need your address on the SRS letter.
Here is the link http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certific...n/name_change/
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