My Apprenticeship Leads me to Become a Feminist

[Beth-Lock]

Unless I've missed something, who said that you aren't a feminist?:

The implication of the questioning of my bonafides as a feminist by several forum members are clear however. Certainly I drew this conclusion because it seemed so obvious.

It would be good for you to develop your own thoughts about this. You can't have a meaningful belief system without any development, based on someone else's thoughts.

Well, my experience on this forum is the first time anybody accused me of not being an original thinker! Most people with an opinion on the subject tend to tell me to settle down after my brainstorms in which my originality takes off into the wild blue yonder.

Luckily for me, I have enough women friends who are quite bright so that I can draw on their experience as women and their thinking on women's issues, in a constructive way. Even awaiting surgery yesterday, I was able to engage my escort in fruitful conversation about this, (among other things, like how to cope with pain, during which she shared with me a Buddhist technique). I try to escape from the lone wolf model of intellectualism when I can, and these days, this is an issue on which there is an opportunity to do so. Otherwise, intellectual pursuits have proven a rather lonely endeveaour for me, in which it is just a matter of me, my mind and a stack of books.

[ReineD]

No, I meant develop your ideas about feminist issues! I'm in no position to judge your opinions or thoughts on other matters.

[Babeba]

Aprilrain,

The interesting thing about cultural sex differences is that every culture has 'em, and yet they are different in every culture. There is no one task other than carrying a baby (impregnating someone?) and giving birth (biological imperative) which is strictly male or strictly female for everywhere in human societies. Even the idea of man the hunter, woman the gatherer was flawed research based on unwittingly sexist methodologies; I remember reading an article by one of Lew Binford's Ph.D students who had gone in the 70's to a northern group that had been studied in the past - women stayed in camp, men went out and hunted, women gathered and prepped food, took care of babies, etc. according to past studies. Well, it was mainly true except that the researcher before had only asked men about hunting and hadn't asked women about their hunting, which was pretty much the same job as men's hunting. He also hadn't asked the men about what they gathered on their hunting trips, just the hunting.

As a discussion of an issue relating to feminism, I am honestly not sure if that was on topic or not...

[Aprilrain]

Aprilrain,

The interesting thing about cultural sex differences is that every culture has 'em, and yet they are different in every culture. There is no one task other than carrying a baby (impregnating someone?) and giving birth (biological imperative) which is strictly male or strictly female for everywhere in human societies. Even the idea of man the hunter, woman the gatherer was flawed research based on unwittingly sexist methodologies; I remember reading an article by one of Lew Binford's Ph.D students who had gone in the 70's to a northern group that had been studied in the past - women stayed in camp, men went out and hunted, women gathered and prepped food, took care of babies, etc. according to past studies. Well, it was mainly true except that the researcher before had only asked men about hunting and hadn't asked women about their hunting, which was pretty much the same job as men's hunting. He also hadn't asked the men about what they gathered on their hunting trips, just the hunting.

As a discussion of an issue relating to feminism, I am honestly not sure if that was on topic or not...

figures! the woman do the men's and the women's work while the men wander around in the woods all day

this makes sense for hunter gather societies and many prehistoric artifacts point to a worship of female deities or at least a recognition of the feminine in their societies. once intensive animal assisted agriculture took hold about 5000 years ago people become more possessive of land, patriarchal war like societies begin to dominate. This is our legacy today. I think discovering the root causes of sexism can help us to understand the psychology that continues to drive sexism today.

I think we have come a long way in the last 100 years however we must be ever vigilant, It would not take much for humanity to backslide.

Interestingly enough I have found in casual conversation with GGs that they sorta take the current standards that woman enjoy for granted. I find it curious that these woman are not more concerned about sexism and how it could effect them. Perhaps it is desensitization, I don't know. Maybe its because you guys have not had the "privilege" (sarcasm) of being present around men when no woman are around!!!!!

[Julia_in_Pa]

With militant feminism there is no middle ground it's a one way or the highway proposition.


Julia

[queenie]

In China, they abort female babies as a matter of law. They've been doing this for quite awhile and people are just now beginning to chafe at this particular government mandate.

The practice itself is a cultural one, and not a government mandate as you would call it. In fact, governmental laws are in place to prevent female infanticide, but those who are adamant about having a male child find ways around it through the medical black market. It doesn't change the humanism argument, but if you want to use Chinese practices as a basis, you should have the facts correct.

[ReineD]

The interesting thing about cultural sex differences is that every culture has 'em, and yet they are different in every culture. There is no one task other than carrying a baby (impregnating someone?) and giving birth (biological imperative) which is strictly male or strictly female for everywhere in human societies. Even the idea of man the hunter, woman the gatherer was flawed research based on unwittingly sexist methodologies;

And this forms the basis of any feminist principle!

The only difference between men and women is physical: average size/strength (although even this is not consistent among individuals), and the ability to bear children. Any gender role is a social construct. There is no reason women should be thought of any differently than men in the work force with regards to ability, responsibility, and pay scale.

I'm not saying that men and women shouldn't engage in their gendered mating dances in order to attract each other but gender differences do not belong in the workforce.

[Badtranny]

The practice itself is a cultural one, and not a government mandate as you would call it. In fact, governmental laws are in place to prevent female infanticide, but those who are adamant about having a male child find ways around it through the medical black market. It doesn't change the humanism argument, but if you want to use Chinese practices as a basis, you should have the facts correct.

Ugh, this is why I hate using real life examples. I was clearly trying to make a point about the difference between a humanist issue and a feminist one and the argument would have held even if my example was purely hypothetical. Alas, my ignorance of world culture rears it's ugly head again and bites me on the rear, by giving people something to distract them from the root argument. China is indeed suffering from a rather severe shortage of young women true? One way or another there is a serious human rights concern wrapped up in that issue.

I'm not saying that men and women shouldn't engage in their gendered mating dances in order to attract each other but gender differences do not belong in the workforce.

You got that right baby. My earlier career before I stumbled into construction was in broadcasting and the only thing those two occupations have in common is that they are overwhelmingly male dominated. Clearly a woman can handle the physical exertion of sitting in a tiny room in front of a microphone. When I changed careers (not entirely voluntarily) there was nothing that I did as a Sound and Com technician that a woman couldn't have done. Women are not lacking in anything except opportunity.

[LeaP]

And this forms the basis of any feminist principle!

The only difference between men and women is physical: average size/strength (although even this is not consistent among individuals), and the ability to bear children. Any gender role is a social construct. There is no reason women should be thought of any differently than men in the work force with regards to ability, responsibility, and pay scale.

I'm not saying that men and women shouldn't engage in their gendered mating dances in order to attract each other but gender differences do not belong in the workforce.

I don't buy that social construction is the only determinant of gender and that therefore the only differences are those you cite. I do accept fully that gender differences, biological or social, are irrelevant to the workplace.

Lea

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have been called many things in my lifetime, but I don't think "feminist" was ever one of them. However...

Growing up, my mother taught me to treat women with dignity and respect. I have never, nor even considered hurting women by hitting, beating, bullying, raping, harassing, looking down upon or thinking less of, touching without permission, not respecting boundaries, or recklessly impregnating or many other things I see some men do on a regular basis (worst of all some of those things the popular culture right now happily endorses.) It did not take being a TV or wearing a dress or associating with TS to convince me to do this, it was just taught to me right from the beginning. I don't know if that is feminism or not, to me it is just treating others as you would want to be treated, it is just that simple to me.

[SabrinaEmily]

I'm a member of of NOW (National Organization of Women).
I belong to various organizations that advocate and promote the arming of women.
I've been a long time financial supporter of Planned Parenthood.

Systematically removing men from positions of power in government, politics , private business and as heads of households is the ultimate aim for many of the organizations I belong to and support.
Men have done nothing but enslaved women in the name of religion and economic gain for centuries and slowly but surely things are changing concerning reversing the roles.

Placing men in subservient roles should be the goal of every woman, GG, IS or TS.


Julia

Misandric garbage. But at least you're honest.

You've illustrated why I am not and will never be a feminist. I don't join with those who want to push down one segment of society to elevate another, typically themselves.

[ReineD]

I don't buy that social construction is the only determinant of gender and that therefore the only differences are those you cite. I do accept fully that gender differences, biological or social, are irrelevant to the workplace.

No, I believe that only gender roles and also perhaps gender presentation are a construct, since they differ from culture to culture. An intrinsic sense of gender goes beyond roles and presentation and for people who are not TS, are tied to their basic biological functions or if you will, their birth sex. I did say "the only difference". I should have said "the major difference among cisgenders?" Sorry.

On a different note, I've just received a PM from someone who read this same post asking if I feel that since women and men should be treated equally in the workforce, would I be OK with losing maternity leave. I'm posting my response here because it's a great question and it's on the topic of feminist beliefs/principles.

Women do give birth and when they are doing so they are incapable of showing up at the office, not unlike any other physical condition that sometimes prevents people from working, like an illness or a family emergency. I hope you understand that I'm not comparing giving birth to an illness. The point is that employers allow for time when employees, either men or women, cannot work.

That said, birth and recovery from birth do take less time than recovery from a heart attack for example, and so the mother is well able to return to the office within a week barring any complications. I think it would be fair to have a universal rule since husbands and wives are not likely to share a workplace, for all employers to grant "parent leave" so that either men or women could choose to stay with the baby until he or she was old enough to go to daycare. Then it would be up to the parents to decide who should stay home with the baby.

There are women who are the primary income earners and who would prefer returning to work earlier if their husbands could be given leave to stay home.

[Rianna Humble]

Well said, Reine. For a short time in the UK, there were moves towards equalising parental leave rights. Sadly a different government found that giving the father the right to take parental leave in place of the mother would somehow be detrimental to the economy. Still haven't worked that one out myself.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Of course I'm honest.
I'm a honest person. I think the reason why you stated that you'll never be a feminist is due to the fact that you identify as a heterosexual male.


Julia

Misandric garbage. But at least you're honest.

You've illustrated why I am not and will never be a feminist. I don't join with those who want to push down one segment of society to elevate another, typically themselves.

[ArleneRaquel]

By celebrating womanhood how does that put down men ?

[ReineD]

Well said, Reine. For a short time in the UK, there were moves towards equalising parental leave rights. Sadly a different government found that giving the father the right to take parental leave in place of the mother would somehow be detrimental to the economy. Still haven't worked that one out myself.

The way to fix that is to remove the glass ceiling for women! lol

[LeaP]

On a different note, I've just received a PM from someone who read this same post asking if I feel that since women and men should be treated equally in the workforce, would I be OK with losing maternity leave. I'm posting my response here because it's a great question and it's on the topic of feminist beliefs/principles.

Here I'm going to take the humanistic route. Both (not either) should be given the same leave. I think the point is not recovery, which might only be days to a week or so, typically, but the care of the child and integration of the family.

Maybe if we cared about children, as a society, to the same degree to which politicians pander to the topic, this wouldn't even be questioned.

Lea

[ReineD]

I think the reason why you stated that you'll never be a feminist is due to the fact that you identify as a heterosexual male.

Julia, feminism is about equality and honoring basic human and civil rights, not one gender having supremacy over the other. I wouldn't want to remove a man from power just because he's a man. I'd want to remove anyone from power who is corrupt, be they man or woman.

You can say that men have a long tradition of enslaving women, this is true, but this is changing big time. Long gone are the days when women were chattel. We may not have fully reached equality in the work force, but it's getting there. There are more women in positions of power than ever before and it is increasing.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Reine,

I look forward to your words for they are kind and rational even dealing with a subject that is highly charged.
You and I are in full agreement that women have made extreme advances in the world of equal rights with men, however we have miles to go.

My viewpoints seem radical to those that aren't exposed to the groups and organizations I belong to and are docile comparatively to some outer fringe lesbian organizations.
We all have our battles with being treated equally but we all must band together to continue to systematically remove those that would keep us as second class citizens.


Julia

[SabrinaEmily]

Of course I'm honest.
I'm a honest person. I think the reason why you stated that you'll never be a feminist is due to the fact that you identify as a heterosexual male.


Julia

I actually don't, but that's not the point.

It wouldn't be hard for me to find among my friends and acquaintances plenty of women, cis and trans, of every sexual orientation, who have no love for your anti-male worldview, and who hold the truly radical feminists in deepest contempt.

(And if anyone wants to see how truly psychotic the radfems are, settle down at http://radicalhub.com/ and read as long as you can stand it.)

[Helen Grandeis]

If men are becoming the creatures that are depicted in modern sitcoms, then women will soon rule the world with men being plucked from their fraternity, boyish pursuits only for the purpose of harvesting genetic material. Women will soon be the majority of graduates from college and graduate schools.

[Sophora]

We all have our battles with being treated equally but we all must band together to continue to systematically remove those that would keep us as second class citizens.

This is we disagree. I want to remove those that would keep anyone as second class citizens, be them male or female.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Very good indeed Helen!!
I hope this is actually the case.

Julia

If men are becoming the creatures that are depicted in modern sitcoms, then women will soon rule the world with men being plucked from their fraternity, boyish pursuits only for the purpose of harvesting genetic material. Women will soon be the majority of graduates from college and graduate schools.

[Stephenie S]

I actually don't, but that's not the point.

It wouldn't be hard for me to find among my friends and acquaintances plenty of women, cis and trans, of every sexual orientation, who have no love for your anti-male worldview, and who hold the truly radical feminists in deepest contempt.

(And if anyone wants to see how truly psychotic the radfems are, settle down at http://radicalhub.com/ and read as long as you can stand it.)

I would think Julia has a right to her opinions without being called psychotic.

[SabrinaEmily]

I would think Julia has a right to her opinions without being called psychotic.

I know that I consider myself a radical feminist and I find your comments slightly offensive and dripping with testosterone.

Stephie

If you agree with what's on that site, and the other misandrist (and often transphobic, by the way) things radfems preach, then I intended to offend you, because I find those ideas hateful and contemptible.

I don't believe Julia does. I took her at her word that she's not that extreme.