Gender education in schools

[Foxglove]

When my son was going through secondary school, he was excused from religious education class, which is standard here in Ireland. This was because it was well-known that I'm not Catholic. I didn't request that he be excused. I assumed he'd do the class like everybody else, and I saw no harm in it. It's an overwhelmingly Catholic country, and I saw no reason why he shouldn't learn something about the faith. It's not a bad idea to know what the vast majority of your fellow-citizens are on about.

But when he was excused, I didn't question that. No point in insisting. At any rate, he's not any more Catholic or religious now than I am.

Annabelle

[Mrs. G]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1092920.html

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/92945969.html

- This are just two of many article you can find if you Google the incident.

I lived in Arizona most of my life. I grew up in the 80's and in elementary school we use to sing the national anthem and say the pledge of allegiance which was followed by a moment of silence for those of us who may want to pray, this happened every morning. Children who didn't want to, for reasons that were none of my business, were allowed to sit quietly at there desks and read, or finish homework or do what ever they wanted to really. I remember it was fourth grade when the announcements started and ended with our principal stating we were no longer doing the those things. I was upset and went home and told my grandparents. I was told that a letter had been sent home stating that "some" parents were angry their child had to sit quietly and be subjected to the anthem, pledge, and moment of silence.

The examples Nicole listed are things I LIVED and experienced in school in Arizona. My nephew was sent to the principals office for singing a Christmas carol in kindergarten. How is a kindergartener suppose to know that singing what is a family favorite carol, may offend someone. I am glad to read that there are still places that allow these things. It was actually part of why we decided to move to a smaller town to raise our two children.

[Alissa]

I don't see much point in vaguely citing isolated incidents and then painting the entire educational systems "in general" with them. I didn't see those stories on reuters, cnn, AP or any other mainstream news outlet. That leads me to believe that the stories were more of the "wacky news" variety than indicative of any important trend.

They are far from wacky news stories. Apparently, you have not figured out that mainstream news has a very liberal agenda and buries stories like this. You have to branch out from CNN, MSDNC, etc.

Since you won't cite the relevant article we have no way of knowing what actually happened. It's easy to play armchair quarterback, but if you were in the principal's chair you might have an entirely different perspective. You cannot punish wrongdoing in advance, but you can take steps to prevent incidents from occurring. In a situation like that banning the wearing of any flag would be a reasonable step. BTW, May 5th is not Mexican Independence Day.

I will post relevant articles tonight when I am home. They are not hard to find. Did you just say that banning the American Flag in schools would be reasonable? Seriously?

[Alissa]

Alissa, I have to respectfully disagree. Most parents are nowhere near being capable of teaching their kids about human sexuality and gender without passing on personal biases, prejudices and plain misinformation, as most parents are ignorant of those subjects.

A good education is one that is rich and varied, covering all sorts of topics and issues besides the basics that you mentioned.

The pledge of allegience, which didn't exist until 1892, wouldn't be banned anywhere if we'd just drop the "under God" phrase that was added in 1954 during the McCarthy days when everyone was paranoid about "atheistic" communists. The Knights of Columbus led the movement to add that phrase. It isn't part of the original pledge of allegience. We ought to drop that part and then the kids could recite the pledge in all schools again.

Carol

Parents are free to instill into their children whatever values they see fit. The government has no right to enter the realm of value education in teaching kids at all. What if your kids we're taught values that you didn't agree with? Is that too bad because the government says so? Kids should be taught to treat all people with respect, but that is where schools should stop. Bullies should be dealt with if tormenting a gay student, etc but that is where schools should stop. You can teach a kid to respect people of all backgrounds without teaching a first grader what a lesbian is without parental consent.

In fact, assure from some general standards regarding math, science, etc. the federal government should have no role in state run schools.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Instead of spending even more money (we don't even have) on more programs in schools to "politely ask" them to behave, why can't we try first restoring good old fashioned discipline (in schools and at home) and make kids follow the existing rules that already prohibit harassment and improper conduct?

[NicoleScott]

Eryn, you are correct, and I was wrong about Cinco de Mayo. It is not a celebration of Mexican independence (that's on a different day), but a celebration of the defeat of the French army at the battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862. I googled it. You can dismiss my examples if you want to, or you can google them. You may think that suspending a child for singing a Christmas song in school is WACKY news, until it's your child.

Most parents are nowhere near being capable of teaching their kids about human sexuality and gender without passing on personal biases, prejudices and plain misinformation, as most parents are ignorant of those subjects.

And so, we should trust the school to do the job, without passing on personal biases, prejudices, and misinformation? Ha!

[~Joanne~]

Eryn, you are correct, and I was wrong about Cinco de Mayo. It is not a celebration of Mexican independence (that's on a different day), but a celebration of the defeat of the French army at the battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862. I googled it. You can dismiss my examples if you want to, or you can google them. You may think that suspending a child for singing a Christmas song in school is WACKY news, until it's your child.




And so, we should trust the school to do the job, without passing on personal biases, prejudices, and misinformation? Ha!

I agree with what you have said, these are real issues and alot of the things that people find offensive are the founding blocks america was built upon. I am sorry if it offends anyone but personally I don't see why we have to kill traditions that make this country great to suit those coming here to suit their needs. Our schools are a frickin mess and they get worse with each passing year.

Did you know that they are vaccinating children in schools now and they don't need your consent to do it? they are. This should be a major concern for all parents yet it goes by un noticed because MSM doesn't cover it.

[Badtranny]

Traditions aren't forever. Change happens for a reason and fighting change is like fighting the wind. I personally love Christmas, it's literally my favorite time of the year but I have absolutely no Christian inclinations. In fact I find the idea that anybody's religion should get mixed up with my government completely abhorrent. I will pledge allegiance to the American flag, but I will not recognize "one nation under God", because it's just crazy to pretend that I or anyone else believe in something like that just to keep from hurting someone's feelings. Nobody gave a damn about my feelings back in the good old days when nobody talked about homosexuals or transgenders without hate dripping from their tone of voice. I also believe that schools should concentrate on academics, but that includes science along with math and writing. It's so interesting to me that many of the same people that don't want sexuality or gender studies "forced" on their kids, have no problem with creationism or other superstitious concepts "taught" as if it were as legitimate as evolution or anthropology. American kids are getting dumber every year and rather than address that problem we would prefer to fight about a holiday party because it USED to be called a Christmas party. Guess what folks, the world is laughing at us.

[JessHaust]

I
Put me down with the people who think our schools should stick to math, science, history, and the study of our constitution and how our great nation was formed. The "teaching" of social issues, sex ed, etc should be left to the parents. .

And so what are the kids of racist, paranoid, and just plain ignorant parents suppose to do to gain a real education?

[ArleneRaquel]

The teaching of history alone would lead to a discussion of " social issues ", at least in a class that has a teacher worth his/or her salt. A study of our nation may find some faults, which just might lead to a discussion that is not the the parents liking, if that happens so be it.

[Darla]

Good point Badtranny. What's up with Creationism being allowed to be taught? Same folks that don't want tolerance taught in schools? Hmm - very fishy and some would say hypocritical. It's kind of surprising the arguments erupting here in this forum. Thought we'd all be on the same page as our sisters when it cOmes to teaching anti bullying and gender tolerance. Really? Anyone want to challenge this isn't a good thing? Are you going to teach it at home? I'm already doing it, and it came up because we had to explain why their babysitter had a girlfriend. "We believe anyone can love anyone else" went the reasoning. There's not enough love in this world by my estimation.

So good for that school. Just give me some advance warning and I'll pull them out if I disagree. As to these other "no American flag allowed" arguments, maybe there was a valid concern, and I'll deal with on my own - I choose to get involved at a very grass roots level with my system so I can monitor the atmosphere my kids are taught in.

And a well rounded education will bring up all sorts of issues around controversial topics. Sticking to math and science just brings up ....well ... The possible exitisence of god and evolution. So you're never going to get away from it. It's life! Deal with it. if such a curriculum was taught in my school - hooray!

[Julia_in_Pa]

I was sent to private schools for my entire education .
Everyone wore uniforms and were subjected to discipline that in the public school system would be considered violent and extreme.
I along with my classmates excelled beyond anything the public school system at that time or now could comprehend.
Take those same principals and apply them to the public school system.

Zero tolerance policies concerning absence, tardiness and above all else disruptive behavior would be met with dire consequences.
Six day school weeks along with four week summer breaks would be the norm.
This countries children are weak and disgusting whiners.
They learned it from their parents that are also weak and disgusting.

It's horrifying to see this country falling further and further behind other industrialized nations.
We reap what we sow.
Time for a great cleansing to occur. It's time weed out and do away with those that would weaken our educational system.
Work will set you free.


Julia

[Eryn]

When my son was going through secondary school, he was excused from religious education class, which is standard here in Ireland. This was because it was well-known that I'm not Catholic. I didn't request that he be excused. I assumed he'd do the class like everybody else, and I saw no harm in it. It's an overwhelmingly Catholic country, and I saw no reason why he shouldn't learn something about the faith. It's not a bad idea to know what the vast majority of your fellow-citizens are on about.

But when he was excused, I didn't question that. No point in insisting. At any rate, he's not any more Catholic or religious now than I am.

It's possible that your child was excused to eliminate the possibility of a "free thinker" being in the religious classes!

They are far from wacky news stories. Apparently, you have not figured out that mainstream news has a very liberal agenda and buries stories like this. You have to branch out from CNN, MSDNC, etc.

Ah, the Liberal News Conspiracy, suppressing any story that doesn't support the Liberal Agenda for World Domination! Sorry, but profits come first, and hot button issues generate readership and advertising.

I will post relevant articles tonight when I am home. They are not hard to find. Did you just say that banning the American Flag in schools would be reasonable? Seriously?

Nobody, other than you, suggested that flags be banned in schools. Virtually every classroom has a flag in a position of honor.

What can and should be regulated is misuse of the flag. Students improperly using the flag as a symbol of racism is wrong. Past experience showed that such use nearly led to violence and school administrators acted reasonably to prevent that from happening again. The US District Judge agreed that this was reasonable. They did not remove the flag from the flagpole or from the classrooms, they merely told students not to wear it on their persons.

A story from my teenage years might be instructive. A student came to my high school with an American flag patch sewn to the seat of his jeans. The school administrators (who we viewed as extremely conservative) sent the student home to change because they considered sitting on the flag to be disrespectful. These days, those same conservatives would be writing headlines: "Flags banned at school!" "Student sent home for wearing flag!" without any context as to how the student was misusing the flag.

Parents are free to instill into their children whatever values they see fit. The government has no right to enter the realm of value education in teaching kids at all. What if your kids we're taught values that you didn't agree with? Is that too bad because the government says so? Kids should be taught to treat all people with respect, but that is where schools should stop. Bullies should be dealt with if tormenting a gay student, etc but that is where schools should stop.

Figuring out where schools should stop requires the wisdom of Solomon. No agreement is really possible, so the schools aim for the middle, which displeases most everyone but to the least degree.

Some parents instill no moral education on their children at all. Others imbue their children with their own intolerance and racism. Somewhere in this process the child becomes an adult who hopefully will rise above both extremes of upbringing. The school's job is to expose the child to a wide range of information which will help them choose their path in life.

You may think that suspending a child for singing a Christmas song in school is WACKY news, until it's your child.

Again, context is important. If the child is being disruptive then the administrators have a duty to sanction the child in order to protect the other students. Singing a christmas song does not confer immunity from other rules.

I don't see any huge movement afoot to ban christmas songs in schools. The last (public) high school choral concert I attended here in ultra-liberal SoCal was mostly religious songs and was beautifully done.

And so, we should trust the school to do the job, without passing on personal biases, prejudices, and misinformation? Ha!

Well, considering that most people's definition of "personal biases, prejudices, and misinformation" is "anything that is different from what I think" the task is daunting. Another part of parenting is teaching one's children to consider and evaluate what is taught, not to blindly accept it.

[mcvste]

Conversation with my kids in the car...(both are grade school age).

Daughter: Bobby (name changed) wants to be a girl.

Me: How do you know this?

D: He's always hanging around with girls, and draws pictures of girls and dresses, and says he wants to be one.

Son: You know, they have surgery that can make him a girl.

Me: What?? How do you know about that?

S: We had an assembly about, like, gender and stuff like that. Mrs. So and So told us about it.

I have to say, I was utterly flabbergasted. Could you imagine being in school in the 70s or 80 and having them teach us about tolerance for people out of the gender "norms?" I'm sure it would've saved a lot of us some major guilt. I imagine this is part of the anti-bullying initiatives that you see now, but it's great to see recognition that this is a reality, and it's ok to be this way.

Maybe in our lifetimes, there won't be a need to hide ourselves away? Maybe??

I'm quite surprised. Schools are usually conservative.

[AlexisRaeMoon]

Sheesh...kinda sorry I said anything! When you sit back and look at this, it's quite amazing that such a passionate discussion on education in the U.S. is happening on a crossdressing forum!

At any rate, you could make a pretty good case that crossdressing, gender non-conformities, transsexualism, etc. fall within the realm of social studies (studying other cultures, demographics, customs, etc.), and/or biology. It's a little much to assume that because my kids' school decided to discuss this topic it automatically indicates some sort of "liberal agenda" with no educational merit. No one is saying, "Kids, you have to wear the clothes of the opposite sex!" They're saying, "Hey, some people like to do this, some people feel this way, and you should know that it's normal."

Yes, schools here have alot of room for improvement, but I firmly believe a lack of parental involvement has much more to do with it. Make your kids turn off the damn TV, hide the iPhone, and open up a friggin' book!

Now, where's those black panty hose, I know I left those around here somewhere...

[JessHaust]

Arianna, never apologize for the direction a thread takes. Your original post was fantastic news, and well worth posting.
We all enjoy crossdressing to variuos degrees, but that alone is not enough to level the playing field when it comes to politics and religion.
I have noticed that there is far more discord on this site than in real life, meaning of the 80 or so CD/TG's I have met in person, our political and religous beliefs are much more in line. Don't know why, just an observation.

[ArleneRaquel]

My observation is the the political/religious divide among the CD's in the Northern Illinois area is very wide, just my observation after being in contact with many members for a number of years.

[Alissa]

Ah, the Liberal News Conspiracy, suppressing any story that doesn't support the Liberal Agenda for World Domination! Sorry, but profits come first, and hot button issues generate readership and advertising.

We have "journalists" who talk about getting thrills up their legs when politicians of a certain party speak! You can't honestly say that candidates of the Democratic party get even a fraction of the scrutiny of the opposite party. If you do, you are definitely in the minority. Polls of viewers consistently disagree with you, and polling data of journalists themselves prove them to be much more liberal than the average population. The mainstream media vetted a plumber, who simply asked a question of the Democratic candidate, more than the candidate himself. Perhaps you should branch out some from MSDNC, CNN, etc to see what you are missing.

What can and should be regulated is misuse of the flag. Students improperly using the flag as a symbol of racism is wrong. Past experience showed that such use nearly led to violence and school administrators acted reasonably to prevent that from happening again. The US District Judge agreed that this was reasonable. They did not remove the flag from the flagpole or from the classrooms, they merely told students not to wear it on their persons.

So students wearing a flag shirt on the 5th of May makes them racist? From what I read, the Mexican American students were waving Mexican flags around all day. Somehow I doubt their celebrations were all uplifting. There is no explanation for banning the US flag, but not the Mexican flag. Used to be that when immigrants came to this country, they did so to become Americans. Oh how times have changed.

Figuring out where schools should stop requires the wisdom of Solomon. No agreement is really possible, so the schools aim for the middle, which displeases most everyone but to the least degree.

No wisdom required. Schools should be responsible for ensuring students treat each other with respect conducive to a productive learning environment. Anything more is unnecessary. Teaching a first grader about lesbians, etc is out of bounds. Students in other countries are excelling at Math and Science while we are worried that Lucy the First grader might not learn what a lesbian is until they are old enough to see a PG movie.

Some parents instill no moral education on their children at all. Others imbue their children with their own intolerance and racism. Somewhere in this process the child becomes an adult who hopefully will rise above both extremes of upbringing. The school's job is to expose the child to a wide range of information which will help them choose their path in life.

So one person's moral education becomes the accepted moral education and if you disagree than that's too bad? Seems pretty intolerant. We live in a free country and have the freedom to believe what we want to without interference from the Government. We also have the right to pass our beliefs onto our kids. This is not for the school or the majority of citizens to decide. You may not like how someone chooses to rear their children, but it is not the place of Government to interfere unless the child is put in danger. I seem to have missed the section in the Constitution that repeals the First Amendment. I still have also not found the section that gives the Federal Government even the slightest authority when it comes to education. The entire Department of Education is an unconstitutional taxpayer expense that has done NOTHING to improve education in this country. Using test scores, one could argue it has made things worse.

I don't see any huge movement afoot to ban christmas songs in schools. The last (public) high school choral concert I attended here in ultra-liberal SoCal was mostly religious songs and was beautifully done.

Again, maybe it is because you choose to get all of your news from MSDNC, CNN, etc. Broaden your news sources. I already told you what is done in our district. They don't even call it Christmas Vacation anymore.

[JessHaust]

Alissa,
It might serve you better to try and watch something in addition to Fox news. May I suggest NPR, CNN, BBC, MSNBC ( I dont know who MSDNC is). Listening to many sources, and especially diverse sources allows one to compare and cut through the rederick.
Once we had a completely unbiased news industry, until the requirement to air, for free, any opposing views was removed from FCC rules. Now all news sources play to a specific market segment. Fox is squarely aimed at the far right christian conservatives. Does this mean that they are all wrong? No , but you cannot rely on a single news source, they slant the news to make their target audience happy. Happy viewers mean high ratings, high ratings mean more money, it's as simple as that. If you understand any foreign language, tune in to news form that country. Add those opinions to all the others, mix in a dose of common sense and you will eventually arrive at something close to he truth.

[Badtranny]

They don't even call it Christmas Vacation anymore.

Well, because it's not. It is indeed a winter break and not everybody uses it to celebrate Christmas. I think there's even some Christian denominations that don't celebrate any holidays. It's interesting to me (and quite convenient) that so many religious holidays are all around the same time of year. Amazing really, it's almost as if they were scheduled that way out of convenience rather than some kind of divine intervention.

I can't believe this old "liberal media" saw still has teeth. The truth is that LIFE has a liberal bias. People are naturally and continually seeking to be free and conservative politics has proven time and again to be either wrong or simply dishonest. I lived in Bakersfield for many years and it wasn't until after I moved (to come out) that one of the longtime conservative political leaders who had spent his life being a local hot shot and a state representative came out as gay himself. Oh he didn't do it voluntarily, he was caught in a Sacramento gay bar. This paragon of virtue hurt a lot of people because he was leading the charge in support of Prop 8 (hate) and just a few years later he's asking for our forgiveness. A strong, honest man would have spent his energy supporting family values of all types, but instead a cowardly closet queen used his pulpit to deny equality for his own kind. I can never forgive that. History is littered with conservatives who tried desperately to hide their sexuality all while advocating for hateful legislation.

You Alissa are a pretty good example of an outspoken conservative who actively supports an ideology that is very hurtful to people like me (people who can't hide) from the safety of your closet. At least the Log Cabin guys are brave enough to tell the world they're gay. Personally I don't understand why a homosexual would support a party that treats them like second class citizens, but to each their own I suppose.

[Darla]

To those who feel that this countries educational system is inadequate or falling behind, get involved! If there's a call to make this country better and more competitive in some of the primary sciences, again, the best way to do that is be involved in your school system. We live in a community with astronomical taxes, and guess what - I'm glad to pay them. Yes - you heard me right (all those on the right) - I like paying taxes when I can see a superior school system give my children the proper education that I want for them. I'm going to suppose that the same critics of how our schools are failing us miserably are also against raising taxes to provide better teachers, better classrooms and better curriculums. So who's the whiner here?

All uniforms, strict discipline and harsh punishment gets you are conformists and a rote curriculum that does nothing to create the innovation tht we need to compete globally. And not every student ever flourishes under these circumstances, those who can't deal with that type of environment are likely to drop out or worse. So those who can't conform are destined to be ditch diggers to those who can? I cant believe some of the opinions expressed on a crossdresser forum! Really? Conformity is good? Or only when it suits one's needs. If that's the case please kindly remove your female attire. You're not conforming!

[Babeba]

I am actually super excited to hear your story, Arianna! I think that kids do pick up their values from everywhere they are around, and whether taught explicitly or not, teachers have a big impact on students' lives.

Where I am from, there is a bill that was passed making it so that before anything 'controversial' is brought up in class - GLBT issues, religion, abortion, sexuality in any form - the teacher has to send home a letter informing parents so they can pull their kids from that class if they want. It's a shame, there are a lot of classes that could benefit from being able to draw from so many different situations like psychology, social studies, language arts, science... Even statistics in high school would have been more interesting with a survey on a 'controversial' topic to analyze. (here is a fact for you: one third of all women in the USA have had an abortion. Compare THAT with the prevailing attitudes/shame of abortion... Interesting, no matter what your personal opinion is.) that sort of study helps take the researcher out of the question and look at it with as little bias as possible, which is an important skill.

I think the more voices kids learn about, the better; they are more than capable of making up their own minds with all the facts laid out in front of them. after all, thinking is important and the more a person is capable of freethinking, the better.

[Julogden]

And so, we should trust the school to do the job, without passing on personal biases, prejudices, and misinformation? Ha!

In a lot of cases, particularly with children from homes with parents from either the extreme left or right, yes, the schools will generally do a better, more fair job than their parents will, in my opinion.

Carol

[Alissa]

Alissa,
It might serve you better to try and watch something in addition to Fox news. May I suggest NPR, CNN, BBC, MSNBC ( I dont know who MSDNC is). Listening to many sources, and especially diverse sources allows one to compare and cut through the rederick.
Once we had a completely unbiased news industry, until the requirement to air, for free, any opposing views was removed from FCC rules. Now all news sources play to a specific market segment. Fox is squarely aimed at the far right christian conservatives. Does this mean that they are all wrong? No , but you cannot rely on a single news source, they slant the news to make their target audience happy. Happy viewers mean high ratings, high ratings mean more money, it's as simple as that. If you understand any foreign language, tune in to news form that country. Add those opinions to all the others, mix in a dose of common sense and you will eventually arrive at something close to he truth.

I do from time to time watch CNN, etc. I was responding to an earlier post that basically said there was no bias in news and that it was all based on what sells. If that were the case, then almost all news would lean right as only 20% of people identify themselves as "liberal" and 40% or so as " conservative". NPR, CNN, MSDNC (a play on the MSNBC acronym). MSNBC if you recall, or probably not since you probably only watch left wing news, is the station that cropped a video to hide the skin color of a black man carrying an AR15 near an Obama rally in order to rant about white people with guns. If that is where you think I should get news...

I would however submit that FoxNews has many more liberals on staff and as guests than any of the mainstream news outlets.

[drag n fly]

Kansas is a sometimes strange, sometimes wonderful place.
I am not that familiar with the Lindsborg area, but I am sure most people would think that Topeka with the wonderful WBC folk would be a festering center of hate and intolerance, yet I have not found it so.
I know that I do not always "pass" (especially when I open my fat gob, LOL), but I have been running around this town for years in various states of dress and have yet to run into any real overt hatred.
Quizzical looks, disgusted stares, the occasional snicker, yes, but for the most part people around here are too wrapped in their own miserable lives to expend any energy hassling someone like me.
People can stare all they want, laugh as they like, say what they will, it will not stop me from being me.
I do not live my life to meet their expectations, only my own.

Wonderfully said, Bobbie..smooches Jackie