CD, TG, TS! Can someone explain the REAL differences u feel to me?

[docrobbysherry]

Ok, I get that CDs more or like to dress and appear female.

And, that TGs may feel they were born the wrong gender.

TSs actually wish to change their gender to one they feel they r.

And, that MANY here r on a sliding scale somewhere between these 3. I GET all that! What I don't get is this:

With all the posts about CD/TG/TS intolerance here lately, about hate from ignorant Muggles directed at ALL of the members here, I wonder why/how do U feel so different from the other categories of members here!? I think trying to explain these different categories to intolerant vanillas would be pointless! To them, we're ALL THE SAME!

I've met TSs. A few as CD/TGs who r now Tfemales. And, I have a number of CD and TG friends I met here first. I think they're mostly ALL marvelous individuals!

Some of u feel quite DIFFERENT about/from the other "categories" of folks here, tho. Can u explain to me WHY?

[SIZE="4"]PS: This is NOT about labels! Rather it's how u FEEL about the "other categories" of TGs![/SIZE][/SIZE]

[NathalieX66]

I must have missed all those "intolerant" posts I keep hearing about, but then again I spent all day gardening, and getting bloody in my pricky rose bushes.

I will say, from time to time, I've seen a random poster who is transsexual who gets all snickety and defensive when everyone jumps on the bandwagon for calling themselves transgender....as if transgender only defines transsexual people.
Transsexual people have their own label.....it's called transsexual. Maybe they don't like the sound of the word, and think it's degrading, so they prefer transgender as a euphemism.

I will say this: For all the transsexuals I've met , either transitioned, or in the process of transitioning, you girls have been great and extremely supportive of the entire transgender umbrella. I never met anyone who was on the defensive.

[Marleena]

It's an umbrella grouping because everybody is at different places.

The one thing that never changes is that we are all human beings with flaws just like the general population. In the end everybody just wants to be accepted for who they are.

[Barbara Ella]

Marleena hits it on the head, we are all human beings, and must live with the frailties that are inherent. This means we will all have different opinions about ourselves, and those we associate with. And when labels must be used, there will always be those who have to rank the labeled groups. Recognizing differences is expected, and to be encouraged as we all must learn to live with differences. Support the differences is to be encouraged as well as, as a group i think we appreciate the difficulties in obtaining some of those differences. I do not see the number of intolerance posts as overly high, nor do they seem to me to represent feelings of a majority.

Barbara

[sissystephanie]

Sherry, the answer is really quite simple. We are all individuals, and as such we are all different. This is a fact of life and cannot be discredited!

BTW, if you are a CD you are also a TG! Most TG's just want to look like a woman, not become one. On the other hand, a TS wants to become a woman, unless the TS happens to be a woman who want to be a man! I am now in a totally different category. I dress like a woman, but look and act like a man! And you know what? I love doing it!!

Forget about labels and be happy with your life!! You will enjoy it a lot more!

[busker]

Sherry, I think that due to the hierarchy that is always present in diversified groups that have something in common like the boyscouts (cub scout, boy scout, explorer, and whatever else) if you are at the bottom of the totem pole, you are "automatically less" than the ones above. Janitors are less that CEOs. So, people who are just Cds are not quite the same transgendered people as are TS people who may or may not get SRS, and those who don't are not quite at the same level as those who do. It's human nature to want "to be special" and this group is likely no different. Those who go out look down on those who do not. If you JUST wear panties, you are less than someone who wears the whole nine yards. There was someone from Europe who commented last year that as a group we were still talking about what color is your underwear and they weren't interested in a place that was stuck at stage one. So as a group, we are less than our European counterparts. As for me, I'm just a regular Cd, but there are parts of me that are awesome.

[natacsha]

If I'm not mistaking....gay and lesbian people think bisexuals are really just gay or lesbian. I think they get upset at bi's because they just want some clarity in other peoples lives lol maybe the same holds true for what youre talking about sherry. they made a choice and they feel we should follow either one way or the other? But there is a huge rainbow of colors us as individuals are dancing on and thats better for everyone imo

[JessHaust]

It's highly debated, but Stephanie is technically correct. If you present yourself as a gender other than the one you were born with, you are transgender. If you are in the process of, or have completed a physical change of gender, you are transexual. Just a crossdresser? You are in denial!

[KellyJameson]

Labels applied to human beings make me apprehensive.

There are men who stay men regardless of how they dress, they do not lose their sense of self, they have a stable identity and always have.

Crossdressing may be for entertainment, escapism, fetish, ect... but they remain clear about who they are and the crossdressing does not threaten or change their identity, it does not make them wonder if they are a man or woman when they are out of the clothes.

For these men when they dress they may feel differently because the crossdressing gives them permission to experience feelings they were shamed into repressing, feelings that belong to both sexes but are considered weak in a man so by temporarily dressing as a woman they may now feel and express the emotions of a woman that are not allowed as a man but they stay men and actually become better men by moving toward emotional wholeness again but with no interest in physically changing their bodies.

A very clever and healthy way to undue the childhood damage of western civilizations screwed up definition of masculinity in my opinion.

Than there is the other side of the coin, men who formed in childhood a female identity on a subconscious level. They may have articulated this to others but as a child few adults would understand the significance of these statements or wishes and children being natural gender benders anyway how would it be possible to know the difference between childhood fantasy and childhood reality.

For those children who it is a reality I personally think it is because of the physical structure of the brain at birth and this structure creates a very strong affinity with girls and women that may also leave them repeled by boys, they embrace mother not as a boy in competiton with the father but from emotional osmosis that turns them into girls/woman, they were predestined to be this way.

These men are very vulnerable to destruction by others or their own hand and few escape being victims of bullies in childhood.

Identity is very fragile when you have GID leaving you with the sensation of never being sure who you are. For many the memory of this feeling coming back after they transition makes them militant and defensive because the fear of sliding back into dysphoria never really left them so external symbols like glue are still needed to keep their identity together, they possess female bodies but still doubt that they are female, they feel unworthy, inadequate and most importantly " Less than " a woman.

For most people once identity is formed they no longer need their bodies to reinforce their identity, if you could take the brain out of the body it would still be a male or female brain, but for those with GID identity never forms to this degree.

I worry these labels are keeping those who are in pain from finding relief because it adds to their already immeasurable confusion and forming cliques based on how many hoops you have managed to jump through to reassure yourself that you are the genuine article at the expense of another is just plan evil.

[ReineD]

(1) Ok, I get that CDs more or like to dress and appear female.

(2) And, that TGs may feel they were born the wrong gender.

(3) TSs actually wish to change their gender to one they feel they r.

I've numbered your three premises for ease of discussion.

First, for the purpose of differentiating members of the trans community from cisgenders, everyone you mention is TG: the (1)s, the (2)s, and the (3)s. Granted, some of the (3)s who have transitioned (and some who haven't) do not consider themselves TG and they have a point since psychologically, legally, and also appearance-wise (for those who've had SRS) they are female, but we can have this discussion in a different thread.

Second, the (2)s are TSs. Even if they feel they cannot transition for a number of reasons, the minute that someone feels she is born in the wrong body, she has GID and she is transsexual; her gender identity is in direct opposition to her birth sex. If she doesn't know for sure, if she feels she "may" be TS, then really, she is TSQ (TS Questioning). A description of "TG" for such a person is too vague.

Third, I see a great deal more bickering among the (1)s & (3)s, and the (2)s & (3)s, (not so much between the (1)s and (2s)) on this site than I do among the TSs and the CDs that I know personally.

Why is this so? Maybe because it's the internet and it attracts people who like to argue?

Edit - Seriously, I think that people argue because they find it difficult to fathom the very wide spectrum of trans. They try to fit a gradient into separate boxes:

Gradient: http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...BUsX6gQrpOz2zw

Boxes: http://www.digi-graphics.com/graphic...rayscale01.jpg

[sierra_g]

I think this is right...

Male at birth
Genetic Male
Transsexual FTM
Transsexual FTM Questioning
Would it be Blue Foggers?
Cross Dress FTM
Lesbian
Bisexual
Genderless / Perfect Hermaphrodite
Bisexual
Gay
Cross Dress MTF
Pink Foggers
Transsexual MTF Questioning
Transexual MTF
Genetic Female
Female at birth

I think that this spectrum is a good basic ground, but there are so many other classifications, or non-classifications, that are out there. I am personally somewhere in the TSQ/Pink fog area with a stronger foothold in the TSQ.

[PetiteTonya]

Ok, I get that CDs more or like to dress and appear female.

And, that TGs may feel they were born the wrong gender.

TSs actually wish to change their gender to one they feel they r.

And, that MANY here r on a sliding scale somewhere between these 3. I GET all that! What I don't get is this:

With all the posts about CD/TG/TS intolerance here lately, about hate from ignorant Muggles directed at ALL of the members here, I wonder why/how do U feel so different from the other categories of members here!? I think trying to explain these different categories to intolerant vanillas would be pointless! To them, we're ALL THE SAME!

I've met TSs. A few as CD/TGs who r now Tfemales. And, I have a number of CD and TG friends I met here first. I think they're mostly ALL marvelous individuals!

Some of u feel quite DIFFERENT about/from the other "categories" of folks here, tho. Can u explain to me WHY?

This is my understanding of the definitions.

TG = Transgendered and as I understand it, TG is a generic term, used to describe any and all who reside on the gender continuum who do NOT necessarily identify or present as genetic females or males consistently.

TS = The Transexual and I think that the term was originally applicable to those individuals whom had actually made a decision to being the process of transition to living full time in female mode, through HRT, and various surgeries.

CD = A man who (for various reasons) prefers to dress in female attire.

How do I feel about them? Well at the risk of coming under some harsh criticism, I feel that they are also labels and are often misused, over applied and also used as a status symbol on what I call the "gender hierarchy".

The TS female is described in the literature as someone who, of course thinks of herself as a woman, has been diagnosed with GID, likely after seeking therapy, has begun a regimen of HRT and is making huge changes in her life to align her body and her living circumstances to better conform with life as a female.

Alot of folk in "the community" often label themselves as TS females because that term occupies the highest wrung on the hierarchical gender ladder and as it is the natural inclination for most humans to always view ourselves as one wrung up class wise, I see this is as quite normal.

The reason why I even mention this in this context is that, the TG community is generally fragmented, subject to the same internal strife and prejudices as society in general. The TS females in transition look down their noses at the CDs, deeming them to be "wanna be's" who really aren't at all serious and of course, cannot possibly understand the terrible struggle and appreciate the courage of the TS female.

This attitude tends to manifest itself into rather bad, unmannerly and intolerant behavior towards others who are "deemed" to occupy a lower place on that gender hierarchy.

Of course, this type of intolerance within the community also breeds distrust and also creates obstacles in terms of what image we project to the public.

Recently, I was in the company of a TS female who is in transition. At one point in the evening she sighed and said "You know, I really need to stop hanging out with trannies"

....amazing don't you think? I think it becomes just a tad too easy to delude oneself into believing one is actually and naturally female...when one is not. Transexual females are not natal females but that is for another thread.

So for me, I find these terms, outside of the very precise clinical definition to be dangerous when trans folk interchange them to suit circumstances or validate themselves to others.

We experience enough intolerance and are subject to enough misunderstanding as it is. If we cannot learn to accept each other, it seems hollow to then complain about the lack of wider acceptance.

I think TG ought to be the ONLY label used to describe ALL trans folk without the sub-categories but it is much too late for that.

The gender continuum has adequate room to accomodate us all.

[Sandra1746]

The problem with labels is they are a discrete system being used to describe a continuous process.

For myself I self-identify as TG. The full TG definition really paints with a very broad brush and properly includes most CD but not post-op TS. It is simply one who chooses to wear or adopt clothing or mannerisms of the opposite gender... short of surgery to change gender. My wife and I have had "discussions" regarding my self-identification because she sometimes uses points on the spectrum close to, or inside of, the TS-spectrum. I try to tell her she is entitled to her own opinions but not her own definitions and data.

Arguing over the differences is something the psychology field has been doing almost forever, and even the professionals keep changing their definitions; RE the new DSM version. Most of the discussion is a good exercise in philosophy but it may not provide much clarity. Getting dogmatic about differences is certainly counterproductive.

Let's just all get along and respect each other,
Sandra1746

[LeaP]

I think this is right...

...
I think that this spectrum is a good basic ground, but there are so many other classifications, or non-classifications, that are out there.

Your spectrum conflates gender identity and sexuality. They are related, because sexuality may be viewed as one aspect of gender variance, but they are not the same and don't exist on the same spectrum.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Allow me to throw in a medical term into the soup called IS which is Intersexuality.
In the overall scheme of things IS people that transition become included within the context of Transsexualisim due to the act of transitioning.
Intersexed individuals occupy no space under the TG umbrella.


Julia

[Cheryl T]

Labels never quite define the full range of items they try to encompass.
TG seems to be the umbrella term for all of us.

As stated by Dr. Harry Benjamin in his book "The Transsexual Phenomenon"...

[SIZE=3]Are all transvestites transsexuals? [/SIZE][SIZE=3][SIZE=3]Coming back to the differences between transvestism and transsexualism., another simpler and more unifying concept and a corresponding definition may have to be considered. That is, that transvestites with their more or less pronounced sex and gender indecision may actually all be transsexuals, but in varying degrees of intensity. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]
[/SIZE]


[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]For the complete reading follow this link... http://www.transgenderzone.com/downloads/ttphenom.pdf[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]I for one began at the first stage many years ago and while my dressing was sexually exciting and release was almost always the end result it was not completely satisfying.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]Having matured in many ways I see that the reason it was not fully satisfying is that there was much more to me than just wearing the clothes. There is a much deeper issue which has come out in the last 10 years. I feel more complete, more genuine now then ever before. Yes, I go out and interact with others that are unaware (sometimes) that I am not what I appear to be and that is how I would prefer it. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]I no longer dress for pleasure, but to express what was long kept deep inside. While I am not looking towards surgery or modification of my body to make me appear more feminine (BA or FFS) I do wish to be accepted as a woman when I venture out. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]I am on that sliding scale. I am just farther along it than many, yet not as far as some and I think that for me TG is a term that expresses who I am much more appropriately than TV/CD or TS.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]
[/SIZE]

[Kaz]

Great post Sherry! I replied to a previous post in this area and got caught out by the 'remember me' issue... so it cancelled me out at paragraph 4!

I just have this major problem with categories and classification as applied to socioanthropomorphic issues... I originally studied as a scientist and was brought up on scientific method. After doing science and then moving into the world of management, I went back to Uni and studied in the social sciences arena, where I now work - different animal!

Some of us here are clearly keen to grab a label, display it proudly and then fight their 'corner' or 'cause'. Many of us here are just trying to figure out who we are as people - no label necessary!

It never ceases to amaze me how women's clothing sizes vary across the labels. A size 12 in one shop is different from another and don't get me started on shoe sizing! Categories in a world of potentially infinite, but certainly highly variable and subjective assessments (not scientific) are at best suggestive and at worst divisive.

OK, a chromosal 'abnormality' - hate the term! - let's call it a chromosomal variant, can produce trans issues and that is scientifically validatable (is that a word?).. at least it is demonstrable as a potential cause of trans issues. For the vast majority of us I am afraid there is little real scientific evidence to back up a robust classification system. So we are left with a subjective sociologically based one... which is flawed the second it begins...

I don't care what my label is, I just want the right and freedom to be who I believe I am! I don't wish harm on others and go out of my way to avoid it.. If people find my dressing offensive, I apologise to them. If people find my views offensive, I apologise. But only for causing offense. And the offense I cause is because of the labels people wish to hide behind.

I don't want to hide behind a label... I am Kaz, I fit a size 16 (UK) top... sometimes 14 and i generally get into size 10 skirts and knickers. I am comfortable with 36DD silicones and like my hair bigged out a bit - I like to wear it long but it looks better shorter. I wake up dreaming that I am a woman and have wanted to be a woman since around 12 of 13 - maybe earlier. I have suppressed these desires/urges, call them what you will... in order to conform to normal societal expectations and have married, raised a family and managed to have a reasonably good life as a guy. I have great friends and enjoy a way of life that is seen as typically male... I play rock guitar, love fast cars, and adore attractive women... But I generally hate the company of guys and abhor the typical alpha male culture. I make friends and get on with women more than men in general (I used to think this was because of sexual attraction, but now I am less sure!), but my male friends tend to be musicians or very creative people... not typical alpha males.

I don't hate my gentialia - over the years we have become rather well acquainted I regard them as good friends! But they do get in the way these days and I wish they were, well, different and more user friendly! I also have a growing fondness for my breasts, which are different from what they used to be!

I love everything to do with women and if I could be reborn that would be my choice, to be one of them... but I have the chomosomal cards I was dealt with, and believe me... male pattern baldness at age 19 is no joke... and it shapes your life and the choices you make.

So... feel free to give me a label... I will contest it!

BTW I am a Myers Briggs ENTP and proud of it! I am also Pisces! Go figure!

xx

[Marleena]

Labels never quite define the full range of items they try to encompass.
TG seems to be the umbrella term for all of us.

As stated by Dr. Harry Benjamin in his book "The Transsexual Phenomenon"...

Good resource there Cheryl.

You can never really go wrong with the Benjamin definitions, they set the standards for treatment and identification.

[Kate Simmons]

That's just plain nuts and delusional in my opinion RS, to think we may be different or better than anyone else. This is why long ago I made up my mind to accept everyone for who they are as a person, not as a "this, that or the other thing". We are all basically people the way I look at it. My one and only rule for friendship is to just always be yourself, as that is the person I appreciate and relate to.

As far as "muggles" I honestly don't care what they like or dislike. The reason I am here is to help others but that doesn't necessarily include pleasing them. In fact you can never please everyone. As my old Pappy (and Bret Maverick) used to say: "You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

[Bree-asaurus]

OMG.... so many people believe false information.

Transexuals are not people who "take it all the way" or "want to become female."

Transexuals are BORN transexual. In their brain, the identify as the gender opposite of their physical sex. That means a MTF TS does not identify as a man, they hate everything about PRETENDING to be a man. They are a woman inside. Their internal gender does not match their external sex.

Since you can't change your internal gender, the only thing a transexual can do is change their external sex to match their gender.

A transexual can DECIDE whether or not to transition. They can live the rest of their lives knowing they are transexual, they can suffer quietly in pain and live the way society tells them to live. Many do not do this because they get to a point where they just can't take it anymore and they NEED to transition. For many, it's transition or death.

Just because someone does not transition does not mean they are not transexual... AND just because someone does transition does not mean they are transexual. A man who transitions to 'become' female is still a male. A cross dresser who transitions is still a cross dresser. A transexual who does not transition is still a transexual.

[Julia_in_Pa]

@ Bree,

It appears that the majority here that are not transsexual reflect societies overall ignorance concerning what exactly transsexualisim is.



Julia

[Bree-asaurus]

@ Bree,

It appears that the majority here that are not transsexual reflect societies overall ignorance concerning what exactly transsexualisim is.



Julia

Yeah... leave it to the people who do not understand transsexuality to tell everyone else what it is :P

[Julia_in_Pa]

Indeed indeed indeed Bree.

[LeaP]

How do I feel about them? ... I feel that they are also labels and are often misused, over applied and also used as a status symbol on what I call the "gender hierarchy".

The TS female is described in the literature as someone who, of course thinks of herself as a woman, has been diagnosed with GID, likely after seeking therapy, has begun a regimen of HRT and is making huge changes in her life to align her body and her living circumstances to better conform with life as a female.

Alot of folk in "the community" often label themselves as TS females because that term occupies the highest wrung on the hierarchical gender ladder and as it is the natural inclination for most humans to always view ourselves as one wrung up class wise, I see this is as quite normal.

The reason why I even mention this in this context is that, the TG community is generally fragmented, subject to the same internal strife and prejudices as society in general. The TS females in transition look down their noses at the CDs, deeming them to be "wanna be's" who really aren't at all serious and of course, cannot possibly understand the terrible struggle and appreciate the courage of the TS female.

This attitude tends to manifest itself into rather bad, unmannerly and intolerant behavior towards others who are "deemed" to occupy a lower place on that gender hierarchy.
...

I think TG ought to be the ONLY label used to describe ALL trans folk without the sub-categories but it is much too late for that.

The notion of a hierarchy comes up a lot, but I think it's largely a mischaracterization of actual, material differences, and the hard feelings and words that arise when people feel they are not heard.

Many transsexuals identified at some point as crossdressers. They not only never aspired to "becoming transsexual," they fought coming to the realization with everything in them. The fight is hard, bitter and incredibly destructive. The point is this: The typical transsexual wouldn't wish it on her enemy, and doesn't think herself better for having gone through it. Many are just relieved they got through alive. To the extent there are non-transsexuals who call themselves TS because of some wacky ideas about community status, this actually has nothing whatsoever to do with issues between crossdressers and actual transsexuals! Moreover, among all those under the transgender umbrella definition, transsexuals are the least likely to subscribe to the idea of a community to begin with.

There is some puzzlement over attitude differences at times between CDers and TSs because of male vs female core identity differences (even though both were raised and socialized male). That took me a while to figure out and it's subtle. There are some things I understand totally. Living in a male world I can speak with perfect knowledge to how men speak to one another, for example. But I really don't fully understand some aspects of male cisgender attitudes towards women or how they view certain relationship issues. I SORT of do, because I've been around the concepts and expectation all my life, but I don't FEEL them. There have been certain expectations of me that I've tried blindly, and often badly, to fill as a result.

I always figured the problem was just me. It can be a hard thing to perceive because individual differences do mask many broad gender differences. But over time you begin to sort out what you can attribute to your gender and just what is individual.

I do not see transsexuality and crossdressing in terms of one as a subset of the other, regard one as a lesser form of the other, or subscribe to simple spectrum approaches to identity. Anyone subscribing to ideas of relative superiority based on spectrum should also consider that the spectrum may be referred from either end. That is, if a transsexual or crossdresser may be viewed as relatively superior from one perspective, they are just as inferior from the other. This is less than useful.

Other differences - Medical needs are radically different between transsexuals and crossdressers. Risk profiles have some overlap, but some differences, too. Both are subject to assault, but the average transsexual will be at a physical disadvantage vs an average crossdresser due to the effects of hormones. And, of course, the transsexual is a full-time target. They have differing confidentiality needs, including at the workplace, which doesn't play into the situation for most crossdressers. The situation at home is closer in some respects, but even here the crossdresser has compromise solutions not available to the transsexual. There are overlaps in social perceptions, but also differences, with the worse public perception belonging to transsexuals, in my opinion. And finally, transsexuals face unique legal challenges.

Most people understand all of this when the issues are discussed separately and in detail. People tend to become incensed when things are glossed over as if to ignore real differences, however. It's all about invalidation, not superiority. That's when the invective starts flying. I actually see fewer arguments over relative superiority than I do seeing CD vs TS as mutually-exclusive categories. I find myself closer to that view these days. Were it not for the fact that there will always be those who have to work through identity confusion across categories, I'd be more of an advocate for going separate ways. There are also some people who don't neatly fit categorization or into any one community anyway, some in this thread. I think they are a minority, though.

[Julia_in_Pa]

, I'd be more of an advocate for going separate ways.

I fully agree with this.


Julia