Serious post:
I think, for me anyway, a label will only be important during the self-discovery phase and then it becomes moot.
It's not worth stressing over.
I know I don't identify with men, or with crossdressers; beyond that therapy is required to see where I am.
Transgender is that 'black hole' you are referring to.
I agree with Anna. And I would like to sort of quote what I said in a thread the other day:Originally Posted by Anna Lorree
"I think the basic labels we have are fine... and I think the one that's really important is 'transsexual' because that diagnosis is required for transsexuals to be able to get the medical and legal support they need.
If I was a cross dresser or transgendered, I wouldn't care WHERE I fit in the spectrum... I wouldn't need to be a subset of cross dresser or transgender... who cares? I would just be myself and screw the labels."
Crossdresser is an otherwise cisgendered person who likes to wear cloths of the opposite gender. There are no gender identity issues.
Transsexual is someone who doesn't care about the cloths... their internal gender (their brain) does not match their external sex (their body). Their sex and their gender are polar opposites.
Transgender is basically an all-encompasing term that describes anyone who does not fit the current gender norms in society. So if you are a CD, a TS, or feel like you are somewhere between male and female, you are TG.
I am very picky about being labeled transsexual, because I NEED that label to describe who I am so I can get the appropriate treatment, medications, gender change markers, surgeries, etc. I don't think any other labels matter. If I was say... 30% female and 70% male, why would I need a specific label for me? What good would it do me? Calling myself transgender would describe me just fine. If you're in a social setting or on a forum and someone demands to know what category you are in, tell them transgender or tell them to F off. Who cares?
Labels are good when they help you find the support you need. Labels are bad when people take things too personally and want to start telling other people what they are or are not.
If you're still not sure where you fall, then don't worry about it. If you don't know if your TG or TS, THAT'S OKAY. Just keep exploring and if necessary, the labels will come. Just be yourself and be happy about it.
EDIT: But I'm pretty sure that the majority of the people on this forum aside from the GGs are transgender, cross dressers or transexuals... despite how unique some people think they are :P
Last edited by Bree-asaurus; 05-25-2012 at 12:55 PM.
Thats me
l consider myself as a woman with boy parts.
I shop cook clean nuture cater please and so
on. I love wearing feminine cloths as it makes
me feel whole. I do so in secrecy so I would
label myself as the invisible woman. But a
lonely one.
Sarah
It's not a "missing" category, so much as a lack of proper descriptors. Just about everyone is "TG" in this forum. lol.
I don't know how true this is, but don't Eskimos have many names for different types of snow? Years ago when there weren't any forums or they were just starting out, most people believed the CDing was just about putting on a dress and if someone wanted what they called a "sex change" operation then they were TS, but more importantly, people had a hard time understanding anyone who wasn't at either end of the trans spectrum. We know a lot more about this now, have a look at the gender page in Wikipedia and also the 156 source material references at the bottom of the page. Unfortunately the words that we use haven't grown and expanded with our knowledge of the gender spectrum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
Honestly, the terms "crossdresser" and "transgender" are catch-all terms for a variety of different expressions, needs, and motives for cross-gender expression. Just saying someone is a CD or a TG is no more descriptive of their gender identity than the terms "francophone" or "anglophone" specify nationality. The term "transsexual" is more specific, it indicates someone who completely and totally self-identifies as the gender opposite than birth, but even then there are layers (and disputes) depending on whether someone wants or can afford HRT or SRS.
Another huge problem: different groups of people have their very own personal opinions of what the very scarce individual words mean based on popular usage, and they either adopt these ambiguous general terms as describing their own particular situations, or they assign those words to people who are not like them. lol. Also, meanings unfortunately become popular through usage without people taking the time to inform themselves of research.
In order to get rid of this "black hole" you speak of, people need to identify themselves better than just using one word, until our vocabulary that describes the various major categories of the trans community has expanded and has been universally accepted.
A pretty good start in identifying the major layers of Trans is Harry Benjamin's six-layer gender scale. He devised this in 1966, more is known now and also some of the terms have changed through popular usage, but even then there are overlaps between the layers for some people:
- The Benjamin Gender Scale: http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Origi...ginalChart.jpg
- The Kinsey Sexual Orientation Scale: http://skew.dailyskew.com/uploaded_i...INS-774322.GIF
(to correlate the third row in the Benjamin Gender scale)
Last edited by ReineD; 05-25-2012 at 02:16 PM.
Reine
Reine I posted the Benjamin scale the other day and the majority of people don't seem to agree with it either.lol. *pulls hair out*.
I think that instead of referring them as "labels", it's more accurate to refer to them as "categories". Most people organize their understanding of the world according to various categories. It's a useful way of understanding things, because if we learn about something new, once we find out that it's part of a category that we already know something about, we can immediately apply all this other information that we already have learned about objects in that category. Thus, our brains become more efficient, since they have to store less information. Of course, many of our problems today arise directly from people's tendency to think categorically. Racism, for example. If we meet a person of a particular race, we often immediately apply every characteristic of that person's race, as we understand it, to them, in order to be more efficient. So efficiency isn't always a good thing. But at the opposite end of the spectrum, you have information overload, where people get too bogged down in details to be able to make decisions efficiently.
As far as being transgendered goes, everyone's brain differentiates into male and female (or more accurately, masculine and feminine) unevenly and differently. And that's why we have this crazy, multidimensional spectrum of human sexuality.
Last edited by Valerie Nova; 05-25-2012 at 03:17 PM.
I know they don't agree with it!
This is what the majority of the membership in this forum tries to do:
3boxes.jpg
This is what Benjamin attempts to do, allowing for variances and overlap, and if people can focus on the content and not what "words" were used in 1966:
manyboxes.jpeg
And THIS is what it really looks like:
gradient.jpeg
In my view, Benjamin is a hell of a lot closer than the simple, "CD" / "TG" / "TS" that members here seem so tenatious in hanging onto.
OK, I know! Let's all of us not try to make sense of any of this at all! Let's just all call ourselves cumquats, or better yet, just tell everyone there is no need for labels and expect the cisworld to intuitively understand what being trans is all about! They'll understand much better that way, and the members in this community will be able to be themselves, unfettered in public all the sooner!
Last edited by ReineD; 05-25-2012 at 03:26 PM.
Reine
Excellent post, Reine! It demonstrates why I personally am having trouble getting to grips with myself. Keeping things simple often makes them meaningless.
This is what the majority of the membership in this forum tries to do . .
This is what Benjamin attempts to do, allowing for variances and overlap, and if people can focus on the content and not what "words" were used in 1966. . .
And THIS is what it really looks like. . .
In my view, Benjamin is a hell of a lot closer than the simple, "CD" / "TG" / "TS" that members here seem so tenatious in hanging onto.
OK, I know! Let's all of us not try to make sense of any of this at all! Let's just all call ourselves cumquats, or better yet, just tell everyone there is no need for labels and expect the cisworld to intuitively understand what being trans is all about!
But instead of a cumquat, can I be a mango? Please?
Best wishes, Annabelle
A couple of years ago, while in an online support group trying to figure out what or who I am, I found a term that seemed to describe me in 2 words. Dual Gendered. I read those words and a bright sun beam shown through my office window and a choir of angels chorused from above. Two genders in the same person, both masculine and feminine at the same time. That's me. Not completely masculine, not completely feminine, but in the middle, both.
Grace,
Bobbi
"Talking is sharing. Listening is caring."
"Androgynous" or "androgyne" is the word I've heard used to describe that. Basically androgynous is to transgendered what bisexual is to gay. On one hand, the word tends to bring up images of certain pop singers, but on the other hand it does kind of hit the nail on the head. Rather than place myself in a category, I try and say things like that I have issues with gender identity, or that I have a strong female component to my personality, that I have an occasional need to express. Thinking about my own complicated sexuality, I've started deliberately avoiding naming categories at all, and focus on describing the elements of my personality. For example, instead of referring to yourself as "bisexual", say, perhaps, "I'm mostly sexually attracted to women, but occasionally I'll feel attraction to another guy." Or instead of referring to yourself as "transgendered", describe in detail the various masculine and feminine components of your personality. This may not be as quick and efficient, but typically when you're discussing details of your private sexuality, the person you're talking to isn't rushed for time.
This is a very important post for me. I'll speak as someone who has met crossdressers and transsexuals ( both pre-op & post-op).
I happened to start dressing in girl's/women's clothes since I was somewhere between ages 5 and 7, I can't emember exactly when. Thy were my sisters', then later on in life it moved to my mom's clothes. There was no pivotal moment that changed me into a crossdresser. In my case every moment was an opportunity.....to be me. Even as a teenager, when my hormones were raging full blown, I fantasized about not just sex with a girl, but being a girl, with all the fashion trappings. Girls had all the freedom to express themselves, and it made me sick with envy. One day, it's jeans and sneakers, the next day it's a mini skirt and long dangly earrings. I was just simply jealous, mainly because a little thing called gender got in the way.
I had a fantasy when I was 14 or 15 that I was a test student in a nearby private all girls school near the private prep school I went to, where I was dressed every day in the girls' school uniform dress kilt and ankle socks/penny loafers, and long hair, where no one ever knew I was a guy.
I do not suffer from Gender Identity Disorder (GID.....it's the real deal) like some ,actually several, that I have met, and became friends with , I just merely don't care for the tight rigid parameters of gender expression that our society established.
Yet, those who are transitioning to the other gender, or who have completed their transition, I still feel a sense of envy....mainly because you are experiencing a sensation, a place , or a stage of something that I'm not . Therefore I feel left out. I still have a strong guy identity, and I love that part of me.
Someone who is mentally transsexual at whatever their stage they're at, they do not feel the sense of connection witht their birth gender the way I feel I do. But sometimes it makes me feel like second class amongst the TG crowd, even though I should not feel this way. I feel like I'm missing out on something.
I'm jst glad that I have been fortunate to step outside my front door and go in the deepest of public environments, dressed in the gender of my choice, an still get a decent and satisfsactory amount of repect in public. Not so bad.
Last edited by NathalieX66; 05-25-2012 at 04:38 PM.
Nathalie you are one of about a dozen of the girls that immediately came to mind when I posted this. A great number of us are beyond CD but maybe not TS based on the categories here. Just so you know.
Oh..and thanks for all of the replies everybody, I appreciate it.
Last edited by Marleena; 05-25-2012 at 04:44 PM.
I don't like labels, but I am going to try to answer some questions about them.
Definitions: CD - a person who wears the clothing of the opposite sex, Can be either male or female.
TG - a person who not only wears the clothing of the opposite sex, but who thinks that they may be the opposite sex.
TS - a person who thinks that they are the opposite sex so strongly that they may resort to sugery to become that sex.
If you are a crossdresser, you automatically are a TG. You are only a TS if you feel so strongly about being the opposite sex that you want to become that sex no matter what! All of us CD's on this forum are TGs and some of us are TSs. But those labels mean nothing, the important thing is that we are all people. And people are different!! What I wear is my business, and as long as I am decently covered it is nobody else's business!! I really wish we could just forget about labels altogether!!
Stephanie
Lady on the outside, but man underneath!
I would add to that TV (transvestite) - someone who wears clothes of the opposite sex day-to-day, in public. That is someone who is genuinely uncomfortable wearing the clothing of their birth sex. All TVs are CDs, but the reverse isn't true, since most crossdressers are fine dressing up occasionally and are not uncomfortable in the clothes of their birth sex.
I agree that labels are just that, labels and don't really provide much help. Just look at the confusion you see on this forum. There is some groundwork on what you are describing however Marleena. Look for the term "middle path" in regards to transgender. (I have also seen the term "bigendered" to refer to the same thing.) I've seen this terminology refer to TS who choose not to transition and to individuals who, like myself, feel a gender "variance" (whatever the hell that means) at the core of their being but not to the extent where they feel the need to transition. These people feel some degree of comfort/discomfort in BOTH genders. Of course this is all based on concurring that there is a gender binary.
Now this is just my opinion, with NO value judgement of any kind!, which you are welcome to disagree with:
If it is just about the clothes and when you dress you identify as a man dressing in female clothes, then it is "crossdressing." Beyond this, if you dress to "be" the opposite gender, to alleviate some discomfort level with your gender assigned at birth, then it is something else. Again my opinion but I see it as a sliding scale based on the level of your discomfort (GID?) and what you need to do to alleviate this discomfort. This scale would end at the high side with transsexuals who have such a high level of discomfort that they HAVE to transition to the extent that they can to their "internal" gender. Reine's graphics (above) kind of capture what I'm getting at.
Debby
I still use it, I am between a 4 and 5. That is actually one of the first things that told me I really am TS. The other indicators were the stories, experiences and conversations with TS women who have come before me.
Anna
"If you're going through Hell, keep going."
-Winston Churchill
Reine, Thank you for reintroducing an expanded range of options. Just as there are more than 8 pitches available in an octave, so too are there more than 2 subsets within the trangendered umbrella.
So to the OP, yes, I too have known I don't fit neatly into either the CD or TS fold. I am CD because I like dressing in women's clothing. It feels comfortable for me. And I am TS because I like the soft curves I've been developing through feminizing my body. That too feels comfortable for me. I am not CD though, because dressing is not "optional" or about the clothes. Dressing is about being comfortable in and expressing more of who I am. I am not TS either though, because I do not think I was born the wrong sex and don't plan to transition and live as a woman. I enjoy being a man, thinking like a man, and doing manly things.
I also enjoy being feminine and doing feminine things. I try to honor both the masculine and the feminine, both inside and out. As I was reading through this thread, I kept getting stuck on the term Intersexed as a possible descriptor for me. I know it doesn't fit because I wasn't born intersexed, but I couldn't come up with a better term to replace it with. Then I read DebGlam and Roberta Marie's terms of Bi-gendered and Dual-gendered. I love it! Yes! This is what I was looking for. Something that acknowledges the importance of both genders in my life! I am dual-gendered.
Androgynous never quite felt right for me as, at least for me, it carries some sense of not being either or, a sort of amorphous state of non-being, whereas dual-gendered more strongly says yes! Both and! This and this.
Plus, dual-gendered is intuitively understandable to the lay person encountering it for the first time. Simple, clear, and accurate. I like it.
As an example, I'm thinking of the last time I went in for a full body massage. Before the session, and while presenting as male, I asked the therapist to drape my chest during the session the same as he would drape a woman's chest. When I said in explanation that I was transgendered, he responded with, "What's that mean?" Had I said I was dual-gendered, I think he'd have understood much more quickly.
Marleena, thanks for bringing up this discussion and naming the gap. Roberta Marie, thank you for sharing a term that feels right for me. I like it.
~Rachel
A dual-gendered lover of life!
Last edited by makin' it real; 05-25-2012 at 08:50 PM.
some friends of mine in a band once wrote a song called "monsters eat my head off." that's how I think of the GID that plagues me; if a little CDing would stop the monsters, then I'd be a CD. But it doesn't stop it, not for long, so what to call this -- thing -- that I am? I see the transwomen who have crossed over and how happy they are; I see how unhappy it is being where I am; and I think that if anything can stop the monsters (it's really a catchy tune) from eating my head off, then I don't care what you call me -- just get me there.
e.
I think to name ourselves or others CD, TG or TS will lead to hurt feelings and confusion.
I think of it as if I'm lost at sea and as the ocean currents carry me I look for an island that will support my life. These islands may be hostile to my life where for another they are very accommodating.
The islands are already populated and even though they may or may not accept you each person must decide by living with the native population whether they carry the same blood in their veins, (are we sisters separated at birth or distant cousins)
This can be confusing because within the native population that unites them is still a rich diversity of individual expression that may mimic other native peoples on the other islands.
It is possible to travel from island to island and there is always one island that will support the life of the individual if they make the effort to discover it. Living on the wrong island has the benefit of teaching the person why it is wrong for them so they are now better equipped with this new awareness to recognize that place they will be able to call home.
Living on the wrong island becomes a safe harbor until they are strong enough to move on or they realize that this island is their home after all.
There is one island that is very difficult to reach because one must be willing to risk their life to land safely on it and only those who have found all other islands hostile to their very existence will out of desperation attempt to live there, this is the final and last island and beyond this island is death.
Each island has a name and while you are living on that island you may be referred to by the name of this island but you are never the island and it is only a place that you are living and you may decide you do not belong there and leave to find a place you can call home.
When you do reach this place that you call home it will seem so comfortable that you will than feel that you and the island are one and you will experience peace and happiness.
Last edited by KellyJameson; 05-25-2012 at 09:28 PM.
this has become a rather "deep" thread. Lots of well meant and shared comments. Some may have mistook my tongue-n-cheek comment about the labels wrong and to those whom feel offended, my apologies. Labels have their place. Labels are important. My T-N-C comment was to simply say "your not alone girlfriend". Having been on the other side for 5 years I would consider myself a Non-Op TS during that period of my life. That which was "down there" was given little thought by me for many years. Along about year 4 I was beginning to really consider that it was in the way and if there was some way for it to go away I would do it. Glad I didn't... but I digress. To a TS a label is a very important thing. Its a statement about ones mental position towards ones body. To the rest of the spectrum, I like the fluid gray scale...quite fitting as there is no "real" delineation but a fluid movement that can happen along the scale.
I think I'll be dark gray today.....or maybe light...hmmm
Jenn
Technical question: Can an advanced level CD play a CD-RW on a non-NTSC DVD ?
You aren't missing anything Nathalie.... you should be grateful that you are comfortable with yourself, that your gender and your sex line up. You were able to grow up and live your life as yourself (not talking about the CDing here). One thing that you'll hear a lot of transexuals say is they wish they could have grown up being the gender they identify as. Not only do a lot of us not grow up as the gender we identify as, but we also miss out on a lot of growing up PERIOD, because we hide from everyone, we hide from all the experiences we could have had for either gender. I spend most of my growing up alone... Most of my growing up was me spending time with myself... living through other mediums because I could not stand to be the boy I was 'supposed' to be and not being able to be the girl I was... so my growing up was like a purgatory.
My advice Sissy, is don't respond to questions when you don't know the answer.
THINK? Transexuals do not THINK they are the opposite sex. THEIR BRAIN IS WIRED AS THE OPPOSITE SEX. If it was THINKING, that thinking could be changed through therapy... I guarantee you that it cannot.
Labels mean nothing? I also guarantee you that the transsexual label means a HELL of a lot. But since you choose to either not read the thread you are posting in, or choose to ignore anyone who doesn't agree with your ignorant views, I guess you wouldn't know...
Do you just ignore every prior post before you spout your uneducated bull? Do you hear the experiences of transsexuals that completely destroy your line of thinking, but you simply choose to ignore them because of course you know better? You know... not being transexual at all... clearly you would know better...
And the funny thing is, many, MANY times you have been called out on your misinformation but you never respond. It's like you jump into the middle of a thread, spout some BS and then never revisit it. You can't even back up your opinion...
But I guess that's just your opinion. You think being transsexual is just some extreme version of cross dressing where we want to be women so bad we chop off our penises. You know... there are a lot of people that think cross dressers are just gay guys trying to get some man sex. I bet you would find that offensive... but here you are, spouting opinions that are just as offensive and never stop to consider that maybe, just MAYBE you have NO CLUE what you are talking about.
Does CD +/- balance out to just a CD? :P
Last edited by Bree-asaurus; 05-25-2012 at 10:15 PM.
Oh good grief Krististeph, they still make CD-RW?I thought that went the way of HD-DVD, and DIVX (Circuit City R.I.P.)!!
[SIZE="3"]MUSCULAR GIRLS ARE PRETTY!!![/SIZE]
Current Inspirational Song-"Running Free"- Kissin Dynamite
M-E-A-T, M-A-C-H-I-N-E, MEAT MACHINE!, MEAT MACHINE!!!
The Governor for President 2016!!
All I want for Christmas is an Anita Model Synth
I'm surprised no one's thrown in "Executive Transvestite"
(Eddie Izzard)
Having been a CD for over 60 years, and having experienced things that many of you have never even heard of, I do think I do know what I am talking about. I would like to see the proof that Bree apparently has that shows that Transsexuals are hard wired in their brains. None of the doctors that I have spoken with about sexual problems have ever mentioned that, simply because it is not true. Being a TG is a matter of your own thinking, and can be changed if you really want to!! But that is the hard part, YOU have to want to!!
I am sorry for not responding to other posts like I should. At my advanced age, and not very good health, I don't always have the energy to do the responses! But I do know what I am talking about, and when I do respond to a thread my response is correct!
Stephanie
Lady on the outside, but man underneath!
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