I doubt it!Originally Posted by Michelle.M
You go first ...
I doubt it!
You go first ...
Lea
To All,
Had I known this thread would have produced such controversy, I would never have started it. Many of you are friends or those whose contributions I actively look for and read with consideration.
It wasn't worth the fight.
Lea
yes, but Lea, there are some on this forum who have chronically low blood pressure and they need the stimulation from a good ruckus. So you deserve thanks for starting it. When is your surgery?
elizabethamy
Wait! Let me go have a look ...
.... not telling!
Reine
There are always going to be people that judge you and people that disagree with you. There will always be people that don't understand. Might as well get used to it.
I have the best two in my city. The others are either not accepting patients hardly at all, or whatever. It is basically a monopoly here. Attempts to establish a TS/gender clinic here have repeatedly failed, because no doctor could be found to do this sort of work. The doctor I have, (a psychiatrist, one of my two therapists), doesn't even live in my city, but commutes one day a week, as she works mostly in a forensic hospital 50 miles away in another town. (Now, she is no longer accepting new patients either and in fact, is nearing retirement.) At one point, I seriously considered commuting to a neighbouring city 100 miles away for each appointment there, but that would not have got me everything I needed either.
The rules are inflexible. And we don't sue a lot. For one thing you generally have to get the government's permission to sue the government (Health card is government.) And unlike Stateside, you may have to pay your opposite number's legal fees if you lose. That could be a bundle because they might put a whole team of lawyers on it. These sorts of factors explain why we don't sue so much up here.
This forum is starting to remind me of the country dances I heard of from others, where everyone is having a good time until the bullies start a big fight, and those sensible, grab their hat and coat, and make their exit -- what remains of the evening being ruined for the majority.
If we are comparing ages, is that before or after we subtract the obligatory five or ten years from our age for the sake of vanity? And who would want to answer that question anyway?
Last edited by Beth-Lock; 05-29-2012 at 10:45 PM.
Leah, with the greatest respect to everyone who commented here, if this is considered a controversy then I wonder what a real controversy would look like. I think we tend to be overly sensitive regarding the matters over which we need to have conversations. Age and older transsexuals and their choices are one of those. I do not see that there is anything in this thread that could even be construed as a personal attack on anyone, which for me is the signpost for a discussion gone awry. If we all stopped talking about the uncomfortable things we would end up being the "you go girl" club and the site would turn to mush in a heartbeat. It is regrettable that you would feel you should not have started this thread.
When matters are raised in the general sense that they were here, and people feel that they are spoken to directly, even though the commentary is neutral and not directed at them, it would indicate to me that some value exists in their life that needs to be spoken to. In my view this would be an opportunity not a controversy even though there may be painful aspects to it. I have had those moments many times here on the board, in some I made a vocal comment in some cases it allowed me to think about my values and thoughts in a different way. That is never a bad thing.
This is a good thread, an important thread because it connects certain values which we hold to the realities of life. It also reveals how fundamentally human we all are. It always amazes me and fills me with joy to see how people are in control of their lives and how directed their lives are from their heads and their hearts. It is always worth seeing this and always do I learn something, so thank you ......
Kathryn
"Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)
I didn't expect to see this level of response but I think I need to add a bit more. What has been lacking, IMHO, are some definitions. The definitions I use below come from the Wikipedia entries for Transgender and the Benjamin Scale.
What I think we are seeing here is the insistence that to be a real transsexual you have to begin transition or conversion. The problem here is that it then only applies to levels 5 and 6 of the Benjamin Scale. Benjamin identifies a level 4 "Non-surgical Transsexual" as one who has considered a conversion operation (surgery) but did not pursue it [for unspecified reasons]. The level 3 on the Benjamin Scale is the True Transvestite.
Benjamin never used the term "transgender", it was invented somewhat later and is more of a "broad brush" treatment of the topic. I use it because it represents my situation as falling into levels 3 and 4 of the Benjamin Scale with perhaps more of the level 4 attributes applying. Therefore while I can self identify as transgender I can also self identify as meeting most of the criteria of a non-surgical transsexual. The two terms are not mutually exclusive in any sense with transgender including (most probably) the Benjamin Scale levels 3, 4, and 5.
For these reasons I feel that my responses to the OP are quite appropriate.
We here are a minority community. If one accepts the Benjamin scale the "transgender" portion of the community is a subset of the CD-universe. The Level 5 and 6 transsexuals on the Benjamin Scale are a still-smaller subset. We can take some instruction from another Benjamin; Franklin that is, who told his fellow revolutionaries that "...if we do not hang together, we shall all hang separately."
Moving forward together,
Sandra1746
Thank you, Kathryn, this is helpful. Excepting a couple of responses in the thread, I agree with it.
I thought to list a number of typical age-related considerations (health, wealth, etc.) as discussion points, but thought instead I would make this more personal by blowing out what I think of when considering age.
I've already mentioned embarrassment at presenting with gender issues as a middle-aged male to my therapist, making a remark about age. In a way it was sort of a preemptive comment - as if to accept and acknowledge the expected dismissal. It's also partly an expression of privilege in a rather pathetic attempt to maintain dignity as a function of position ... and age. Easy to see now, not so easy to see then.
Considering lifespan remaining (the forward look), I have reached a point in life where thoughts of my mortality are frequent, but this doesn't concern me. I'm definitely in the mode of thinking that something, for a while, is far better than nothing. People in my family also tend to live long lives, though there are no guarantees, obviously.
Considering the investment in my life to-date (the backward view), I see mostly an emotional wasteland, punctuated by only a few bright spots. Emotionally and psychologically there is little in myself that I feel a need to retain going forward.
Considering age-related health, I have some typical issues, but nothing that would stand in the way of transition. Not a consideration for me.
Considering wealth, while I am not rich, I am quite well-off. I'm an exec in a large multi-national. I live in a large home in a wealthy suburb. While I have my share of financial issues, they are more in the management category, not need. I do have age considerations here. They are potential loss of position versus ability to gain re-employment, a relatively short timeframe to retirement, and obligations to cover. Losses at this age could be irrecoverable. I would have little or no concern about this up to about 40 or so. At 56 (Michelle?) it is a real concern. Even here, though, that concern is more for my wife than it is for me.
Considering appearance and passability, I'm better off than some, not as well off as some others. My avatar makes me look like my sister - encouraging in one sense, distressing in another! This may sound trivial, but aging and hair loss cause me some real angst. Wigs are HORRIBLE things! Aging coarsens male features. Mine are no exception. As a result of all this, I have some age-related concerns and fears in this area, but they don't rise to a level of preventing transition. I have no desire or need to emulate a 20 or 30-something. Any reasonably-passable middle-aged female presentation would be just fine. Someone in the thread mentioned the appearance and desirability of middle-aged women. I think there are many fine-looking women of age and desirability doesn't remotely enter into my thinking.
Age as it relates to gender privilege is interesting. Males retain theirs. It may actually increase, depending on things like position. Middle-aged women, on the other hand, complain almost universally about their invisibility. This is evidently a concern for some. It is not for me. I dislike being in the spotlight intensely, I'm something of a loner anyway, and prefer quiet and anonymity. Not a consideration for me.
So there are several examples of how age-related concerns play for ME. Your mileage will definitely vary. With the possible exception of retirement income concerns, avoiding transition on the basis of them FOR ME would be excuses, as the urgency of my gender issues overwhelms the concerns.
Lea
There are alot of very open and friendly people in this forum.. kathryn, lea bree..etc...have you read the posts?
To take their contributions and make a stink out of it by saying there is "class warfare", a "hierarchy", and "us vs them" is unproductive and not thoughtful..
For those of you reading this thread, and that are going back forth trying to decide how to best live so you can have the best quality of life, the folks with this chip on your shoulder are highlighting a part of what its going to be like....it doesnt feel very good to not transition if you are ts.... and some honesty about the matter would be helpful..
there are bad apples in every bunch...there are posters that have the attitude that there is an us vs them...none of them posted on this thread ...respond to them!
...don't be pulling my messages or bree's or lea's out and sticking this crap on us...its disrespectful and its bs...
Every single person in this thread is on record here as saying that being ts is a difficult situation. and that to "be ts", there is no reason for you have to do anything...
... the harshest thought expressed here is that lots of people make excuses for not transitioning, and those that have transitioned blew past them....well guess what, what we did!! ...forgive us if any of us take pride that we overcame our fears and issues to transition...in any case, the comments were positive and helpful...
so if you feel you are in the back of the class, its not because you are not transitioning, its because you are not paying attention..
The benjamin standards are a piece of paper,,, i never heard of them until after i transitioned...i don't care about them now....in any case, they don't rank us in order of who is better or worse..
to me if it really bothers you that you are a 4 instead of 5 , then you need to look in the mirror, not at me...
and if it doesnt bother you, whats the problem? and if a couple of big mouths bother you so much that you need to yell at me about it, then again i point you to the mirror..
i would ask you to be more specific and thoughtful about responses to people that are geniunely just trying to keep things honest and productive....
I should really respond by adding my perspective on the considerations you have raised. Bear in mind that I transitioned at the same age that you are now contemplating, as a self-employed professional who relies entirely on his clients and the professional environment in which I function to earn income.
Embarrassment: Over my lifetime I have acquired an infinite capacity to embarrass myself over matters that really count. What stood at the beginning of my transition was my realization that I was done accommodating the world any longer. I have never given much stock about what people think about me, since that is more a reflection of their values than my reality. So embarrass away.....
Life span: I have always embraced my mortality for a variety of reasons which would go to far in this context. Suffice it to say that the circle of life contains this element and I am at peace with it. Once I transitioned I experienced with tremendous clarity that if I died tomorrow I would have had a great life even with one day of being complete and whole. I have traveled my road and it contained happiness and joy, sorrow and pain and what more can I ask for, biographically speaking I am a princess not a beggar.
Life-to-date: Who I am is woven into the fabric of my life and why would I want to start pulling the threads and unravel, while the reality of my first 56 years fades into this tapestry and becomes lost in it's vibrant colors, I still identify threads and motives that have been with me as long as I can remember and I cherish them. There is no threat in this for me, it made me who I am today as a human being and for that I am grateful.
Health: you are dealt the genetic lottery and suffer the consequences of your actions as you get older. I am no exception. It is never to late to work on your overall health, now if I could only quit smoking I'd be elated.
Wealth: I echo what you said I am comfortable but not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. I have to rely on my continued ability to earn my keep until one day I'll drop dead. While not a choice it is what it is.
Passability: I'm ok........
Gender Privilege: This has been an eye opener. We will see how this evolves. My male privilege was left at the admissions office.....
"Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)
Everyone,
I have not had SRS. I still have everything I came into this world with. That also includes some internal female organ development.
Because I still have my male genitalia does that make me male? Of course not.
I've scanned this entire thread over and over again searching for that one reply or sentence that stated that you must have surgery to be considered transitioned.
I didn't find it!!
I've been transitioned for over five years.
I already know I'm a woman.
The hardest thing about any of this is having the courage necessary to do what you have to do.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO TRANSITION THEN CONSIDER YOURSELF EXTREMELY LUCKY!!!
Those that feel slighted and dismissed because of others " perceived " higher rung on the ladder need to turn their views inward and look at what shortcomings are causing them to feel less than the others.
Using age as an excuse not to transition if you have to is a cop out.
If your stacking excuses as to why you can't transition then you were never supposed to transition to begin with.
Julia
I've given some thought to the reaction and realized there are really two very different groups among non-transsexuals as it pertains to transition.
The first are the fantasy group. Dreamers, imaginers, sexual fantasies, lifestylers, etc. they like to talk about transition sometimes and it's usually posed as a question: "Would you ever ...", "If you could ...", "Do you think about what it would be like to ...". Etc. These are of no concern to me for the purposes of this thread and this response.
The second are those in the serious or committed crossdresser category. Some live full-time. They typically have innate, strong, cross-gendered feelings, though they will either gender themselves male, bi-gendered, or in-between. I can easily think of several people who fit this description. For these, thoughts of transition are serious, though few will transition in the end. Some do, however, and it's not for me to judge whether or not it's a valid option for them. Some may be transsexual. Many are not.
They are more likely to be sensitive to remarks that seem dismissive of their concerns or identity. That's interesting, because such remarks (e.g., the excuses comments) are actually not dismissive to transsexuals because the considerations are viewed very differently. To one in this non-TS category, transition is a decision that can be made on the basis of weighting criteria. The transsexual, on the other hand, gives primary weight to one question - does my need to be overwhelm any other consideration?
Thus to a transsexual, another transsexual pleading urgency while not moving forward is indeed making excuses. Some may inappropriately view non-TS people's deliberations the same way. The non-TS, in turn, may not understand the transsexual perspective.
To some extent we are simply talking past each other. To the topic, age considerations weigh differently between the groups, legitimately, in my view.
Lea
Exactly true Lea..well said...
I am aiming at people that are trying to "decide"...i am trying to share experience..
Excuses may be a slightly prejorative word... it may not sound "good" to someone...but its an apt word.
the other side of the coin, often ignored, is that when i read about people that talk how their responsibilities to their family or their job trumps being ts...i wonder if i am the weak one...did i screw up my family and hurt everyone around me because of my selfish act??? looking back i know i didn't...looking back i know i did the right thing and handled it well, so i take a positive view that anything is possible if you want it that badly... in the end, it may almost impossible to talk about this without making somebody "feel bad"...
It's interesting because in my long time face to face therapy group (which i recently left) ...the transitioners were basically kicked out to another group... in years of meetings i never noticed conflict...lots of sad moments, lots of hugs and support, but over a period of time, the folks that didn't transition expressed that they couldn't stand us and they splintered off to have thier own group...some still came to our group..but not the other way...
+++++
one thought to your OP! how's that for a change?
another factor in the age question is that what i have seen in the last five years is that people that don't transition, and are truly transsexual (and again, this is just a presumption, i have no idea who is and who isn't and dont care) always suffer more and more..
here's a quote from Anne Vitale, one of the most inclusive and thoughtful folks out there on this issue...some of her writings are really really powerful and i've linked to them many times...
the section is on older "transsexuals" (she focuses much more on the mental anxiety around gender variance and not on definitions, but does differentiate behavior and identity)
Some gender dysphoric individuals proceed into their senior years with their needs and desires to be female still unresolved. Even now the natal male's feelings about the matter may be as strong as ever.
......
The issues these individuals face are now very different. Concerns about how to be a father to young children, maintain a career, and establish intimate relationships have lessened. New, less resolvable issues emerge. Along with low self esteem brought on from years of self denial, these individuals must now contend with a deteriorating male body.
Along with balding and paunchiness, there are more serious health issues to consider if an older person wishes to transition to the other gender role. Cardiac disorders, gastro intestinal disorders, diabetes and, often, liver dysfunction due to a life time of alcohol abuse are some of the most common..................
There is one other problem this population faces. In interviews, one gets the impression that the struggle to contain their gender expression deprivation anxiety--in and of itself--has become deeply ingrained in their psyche. It is as if the gender dysphoria has become a critical component of who they have become. Characteristically these people can be described as sad, depressed and deeply resentful. In treating these individuals, the best that can be done is to help them feel better about cross-dressing and encourage them to have contact with other crossdressers their age. Success of sorts can be as simple as helping someone find the courage to shave off a moustache behind which he has been hiding his gender issues for forty years.
I read this when i was 45 years old, i crumbled to the ground crying...i didn't get up for a long time...and when i stood up, i said, ...nope, not me, NO F***ING WAY ..and that as they say was that...
The people on this board (mostly the ones in this thread) have taught me more than I could have imagined when I signed on last November. One thing I have learned, despite my own impatience to know everything, is that revelations and actions have their seasons. If it's your time, and you feel it the way Kaitlyn Michele so eloquently describes after reading Anne Vitale, then your job is to act in a way that is harmonious and helpful to yourself. If it's not your time, you're not quite ready, you think you need to do other things first, then your feelings must not be intense enough to require immediate action/transition.
The goal is to live a good life, to be comfortable in your own skin, to be happy, to help others. Whether that can only be done through surgery, or even transition, is a function both of age and opportunity but also of intensity. The end of the road is the end of the road. At any age. At the current rate, I will be over 80 when my mortgage is paid off. In other words, I'm planning to stick around. So there is no too late, no HBIGDA classification, no COGIATI score, no prescription,certainly no time frame, to any of it. What each of us has is a life to live, individually, taking in all the best input from within and without (the folks on this board and others), and going forward from there. The beauty of it is that each of us is unique yet we are gathered here because we have something quite special in common. We are a community, but just as is the case with job performance, family relationships, raising your children, etc, at the end of the day all we have is our selves to ask: am I doing the right thing? To be able to answer yes, honestly, but also to revisit the question as circumstances and dysphorias change...
...this is where I am. I am not interested in a hierarchy. I am interested in my own situation and in that of others here whose openness has made them part of my life. There's so much to learn from all our (your) examples and advice. But, as Julia often says, in the end you have to make these decisions alone, no matter how old or married or poor or inconvenienced you are. Everyone's mileage will always vary!
elizabethamy
Yes for me age IS an issue both figuratively and literally speaking.
Kaitlyn, you are one of the most balanced woman on this forum and about as open and inclusive as anyone around. I don't understand how anyone could misjudge your comments. Kaitlyn, my first wife and I divorced because of my crossdressing. I could feel guilty and bad for letting something that was not even on the level as being TS end my marriage. However like in your situation, it worked out for the better, because I tried my best to try to work it out. And when I couldn't, I did what was necessary to maintain a proper relationship with her and my kids, only separate, just like you did. There are many paths a person can take, but if you keep a good heart, which ever path you end up taking seems to end up being the right one when it's all said and done. Kaitlyn, you are one of those I pray for every night.
Lorileah you are a wonderful lady as well and I'm sad that you and some others seem to have misunderstood Kaitlyn's positions. She has a heart of gold and I know you do too. I just hate to see hard feelings between good people.
EDIT:
Being too old to transition?
I don't believe you can be too old. You may be past the age and time where you won't be able to transition as far as you might have, when you were younger, but it's never too late to start and go as far as your life situation allows you.
I'm a believer in the "when the time is right, you will" idea. That is how I feel about myself. I will never beat myself up about not transitioning earlier. Certain things had to happen in my life, my mind and thought process and in the life of others and even in societies perspectives for someone with my personality to be able to begin transition. When all that aligned, like the stars, then I knew it was my time. It took me to age 55 to begin.
Last edited by Jonianne; 05-30-2012 at 08:18 PM.
Joni
"Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free" Bob Dylan
Too old, yes there is a point of too old, It is about the second shovel of earth hitting the box. At that point you are too old. Other than that nope. Granted that is only my opinion. I have regrets that I didn't start 15 years ago, but I am doing my best to make up for lost time.
I used this lyric just the other day in an email friend that is just starting her transition. She was saying that now was not a good time for her to start that life was too (excuse here)...
Social transition is the hardest part IMO, the more you have invested in your male life/self the harder it is. And lets face it most of us are a little bit lazy, and transitioning is hard work.
OK... apologies all! I am in the UK and so in a differnet timezone, which presents challenges to real time social media sites. Over here it is 2.21 in the mornng and I am not feeling sleepy... I have got on a different timeframe thanks to a crazy job and an even crazier life-style!
Reading through the posts... I seem to have created a stir that I hadn't realised and couldn't come back to...
I'd like to put some things into (my) perspective...
I am a great believer that true learning comes through challenge and debate... even when it gets heated... and sometimes the more heated the better.
I have the ultimate respect for everyone who goes through everything it takes to physically make those changes... I know people who have and am very familiar with the procedures currently being used...
There was a debate here about whether or not SRS and HRT DEFINED TS... now I have said quite often how I have a problem with this categorisation because it leads to defence against 'apparent' attack and the if we are not careful, warfare... just look at the Balkans and the Middle East - go back in time and look at Europe and then the USA...
We are not enemies, we are in the same 'country', we just have different places to be...
I am struggling with my GID, which is what I think it is if I have to find a label... which means I could be TS (OK... potentially as I haven't had any corrective procedurse), but then I may not be... does this make me a lesser person? OK, I suspect the answer is yes...
Lori nailed a point for me and Julia got it too... is it possible to feel and relate to TS if a) you haven't 'done it yet' and b) you wish you could but various reasons can't... or it is c) just not appropriate...
This is my problem with categories... there isn't a one size fits all!
I love Lea, Kaitlyn, Julia's views... respect them (even if I have problems)... and they inform my thinking and learning about who I am!
I love all of you and totally respect your experiences, knowledge etc...
I also think Lori was bang on for me... there are many of us in the CD category... who don't relate with many other CDs who aren't quite in the same place (fetish CDs for example)... so when we get people fom the 'CD' side who want to talk on TS posts... sometimes it is a mistake (as Reine pointed out), but sometimes it is because that where
our heads are exploring... ie are we really TS or not?
Tolerance and acceptance of diversity are good things to embrace...
Kaz xx
__________________________________________________ ____________
This Woman Within is Flying without Wings
Just to clarify, I didn't mean a 'mistake' in the sense that CDs and TSs should stick to their sides of the forum. I meant that subconsciously, most of us tailor our message for an intended audience and if a CDer posts in this thread believing she is in in the CDing section, she may well place more emphasis on certain things than otherwise.
I do this all the time. Sharon explained it much better than I did.
Reine
I wasn't picking up on you personally Reine... more the motivation for some us mixed up individuals when we get beaten up on by these guys... most of us come with good intent because many of us may be potentially TS, or at least TS in out heads... and then we get beaten the crap out of... hence the comments about 'hierarchy'... I am happy to be way down the food chain... story of my life... but for many this really hurts and in some cases quite badly...
This is why I bang on about 'categories'...
I currently have so much empathy and feeling for what BadTranny is going through and it does bring me to tears... is it relevant to me...? Oh yes, so much... I can't even begin to explain!
Kaz xx
__________________________________________________ ____________
This Woman Within is Flying without Wings
No, I don't feel picked on ...
You gave me the opportunity to redress a post I had made earlier, that I didn't feel was stated adequately.
Reine
Aren't we missing the fact that it's not just cross dressers and transsexuals? There are tons of variations in between. Kaz, I don't know if you feel if you are TS or not, but you don't sound like a CD to me. You sound like you have a large part of you that identifies as a woman. If you are dressing as the gender you identify as (or mostly, or partly identify as), then I don't really think it's cross dressing at all. You're not wearing women's cloths BECAUSE they are women's cloths, you are wearing women's cloths because part, or all, of you identifies as a woman.
This is 100% correct. If you really were TS and needed to transition, it's not exactly a choice. It's something you MUST do. If you don't feel this way, you're probably not TS.
No Kaz you are right. Life is a series of compromises and judgement calls. You never get them right you just do the best you can.
Age is a factor that makes transition more difficult, not impossible just harder.
Health is one. Personally I'll be gutted if I find I can't take hormones due to some health issue (that I'm currently unaware of).
Operations (whether GRS, BA or FFS) are much more difficult the older you get. Your recovery is slower and the risks greater.
Habits. You have built up habits of moving, acting, speaking over so many years that are very difficult to overcome.
Relationships. The world is full of people (of all sexes) that have given up their dreams because their family is more important. Responsibility to others vs responsibility to yourself. A lot of people find it easier to suffer themselves rather than hurt someone(s) they love.
Financial. Because it is much harder to start over again as a different sex than a younger person, many are faced with the prospect of financial ruin. Got to eat.
In the (not so distant) past your only work option would be as a prostitute in many places.
Cultural. You may be from a culture that this is so totally shameful (or dangerous) that you can't deal with it.
So these 'negative feedbacks' are important factors that can inhibit many people doing what they really want to do.
You have a war inside your head, your drives vs this negative feedback. And it never goes away, sometimes you think it has ... then it sneeks up again and again.
As I said before, some lock it all away, perhaps letting it out sometimes through CDing, but that carries its own risks of going to far.
Keeping very busy is one of the simplest, I know I did that one for many years.
Some don't make it and suicide. Looking at male suicide rates you have to wonder that a certain percentage might have been potential TGs, torn internally for years or even decades.
The known TG related suicide rate is horrendous.
And there are the slow suicides, drinking, drugs, excessively risky behaviour, etc.
I have spoken to quite a few long term CD's and some (at least) have admitted that 'if things had been different when they were younger'....
CDing for quite a few is actually a 'simulation' (or that lovely term 'femulation'). For a short time at least you can pretend you are the person you should have been.
For some that is enough, it is manageable. A way to longingly peer over the fence and look at that other life that might have been, while still staying in your garden.
As I said before, I suspect quite a few late transitioners end up being so because they simply become tired.
You just run out of the energy to do all that running away.
And then you start to panic because you might have left it too late.
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