Too Old?

[kimdl93]

I think age, in and of itself, is irrelevant. If one really, truly desires to transition, it makes no difference...

Honestly, if a person comes up with reasons not to transition, then its probably an accurate reflection of their level of need/motivation. For example...I'll use myself. In my "ideal" world, I'd live full time. And yet I often consider my family, age and physical factors as justification for leaving things as they are. (I spend about 70% of my life en femme.) Still, when you get down to it, I just don't have a compelling need or desire to go all the way.

[Bree-asaurus]

I think age, in and of itself, is irrelevant. If one really, truly desires to transition, it makes no difference...

Honestly, if a person comes up with reasons not to transition, then its probably an accurate reflection of their level of need/motivation. For example...I'll use myself. In my "ideal" world, I'd live full time. And yet I often consider my family, age and physical factors as justification for leaving things as they are. (I spend about 70% of my life en femme.) Still, when you get down to it, I just don't have a compelling need or desire to go all the way.

That's what I keep trying to say. If you need to transition you can find a way that fits your situation. There's no guidebook you have to follow, there's no blueprint you have to lay out.

Family is important. I didn't have a husband or wife or kids to think about, but I did have the rest of my family and friends. And I had an additional group of people who were more than family to me. Very non-nuclear family situation that I won't even begin describing, but I loved them all... and I loved one of them with ALL OF MY HEART... she was everything to me. That's the family I lost... and that was the main cost of my transition (except for job/financial stuff).

So, I do know what it's like to risk transition when you fear you may lose the ones you love the most... and I did lose them, but I did keep ALL of my blood family and all of my friends thankfully. I'm still alive. I'm better off today than I ever was.

[Kaz]

Aren't we missing the fact that it's not just cross dressers and transsexuals? There are tons of variations in between. Kaz, I don't know if you feel if you are TS or not, but you don't sound like a CD to me. You sound like you have a large part of you that identifies as a woman. If you are dressing as the gender you identify as (or mostly, or partly identify as), then I don't really think it's cross dressing at all. You're not wearing women's cloths BECAUSE they are women's cloths, you are wearing women's cloths because part, or all, of you identifies as a woman.

Thanks Bree, I wear the clothes because they feel right and I can feel like 'Kaz' whatever I am wearing to be honest... well, a big test will be the next 10 days when I have to let go of any dressing and go camping with a bunch of bikers and rock musicians! I know that I will be still be me inside, whatever role I play...

[Traci Elizabeth]

I stick to my original post that it is never too late to transition and to have SRS. One member here had her SRS at a late age and the doctor who did her SRS also successfully did SRS on someone who was terminally ill.

I can not think of a better way to go than with being "whole" and congruent.

Which brings me to another point, which I preface as my personal opinion: to be "whole" and congruent as a woman, requires SRS. And as our beloved Kate always proclaims, "women don't have penises".

So (and again to me) if you are not "wanting" SRS then you are not TS!

All right, shoot your arrows now.

[Lorileah]

This is 100% correct. If you really were TS and needed to transition, it's not exactly a choice. It's something you MUST do. If you don't feel this way, you're probably not TS.

*fighting to stay out of this but can't*

Voulez-vous. You are fairly new and I will re-iterate, the degree of being anything in the TG spectrum is a continuum, not an absolute. While some here may very well feel that they could not live without surgery and/or hormones there are as many who have reconciled themselves to not having either. It does not mean we aren't one thing or another. Life for everyone is different. Some can have total SRS, some will have partial or none. There is a choice, there is always a choice. Nothing is etched in granite. I totally respect those who have the means and ability to get where ever they are comfortable. I do disagree that there is a hard and fast rule.

Age is an issue for many here in many things. They have been covered and recovered. As I tried to point out, just because I don't have surgery does make me any less or more than anyone else (and most the TS's here I do consider friends). I will restate that the reason I feel I am "too old" is I don't see the advantage to me having surgery. Women in my age bracket don't have the level of hormones and many don't feel the need for the physical parts. I respect that too.

[Bree-asaurus]

I stick to my original post that it is never too late to transition and to have SRS. One member here had her SRS at a late age and the doctor who did her SRS also successfully did SRS on someone who was terminally ill.

I can not think of a better way to go than with being "whole" and congruent.

Which brings me to another point, which I preface as my personal opinion: to be "whole" and congruent as a woman, requires SRS. And as our beloved Kate always proclaims, "women don't have penises".

So (and again to me) if you are not "wanting" SRS then you are not TS!

All right, shoot your arrows now.

If I couldn't afford SRS until I was close to the end of my lifespan, I couldn't think of a better way to go out than dying with a body as complete as it could be... even if it only lasted until they finished the procedure and I died in recovery.

*fighting to stay out of this but can't*

Voulez-vous. You are fairly new and I will re-iterate, the degree of being anything in the TG spectrum is a continuum, not an absolute. While some here may very well feel that they could not live without surgery and/or hormones there are as many who have reconciled themselves to not having either. It does not mean we aren't one thing or another. Life for everyone is different. Some can have total SRS, some will have partial or none. There is a choice, there is always a choice. Nothing is etched in granite. I totally respect those who have the means and ability to get where ever they are comfortable. I do disagree that there is a hard and fast rule.

Age is an issue for many here in many things. They have been covered and recovered. As I tried to point out, just because I don't have surgery does make me any less or more than anyone else (and most the TS's here I do consider friends). I will restate that the reason I feel I am "too old" is I don't see the advantage to me having surgery. Women in my age bracket don't have the level of hormones and many don't feel the need for the physical parts. I respect that too.

I would agree with the spectrum thing had she said 'transgender' but she said 'transsexual.' Transsexual is pretty well defined and is the far end of the transgender spectrum.

I would like to again reiterate that she did not mention SRS, HRT or anything like that at all... simply transition. Transition != SRS.

And also, note that her words are 'if you are transsexual AND needed to transition' it's not a choice. I have to agree 100%...

[LeaP]

Women in my age bracket don't have the level of hormones and many don't feel the need for the physical parts.

Interesting point. Even accepting for discussion that transition = SRS, does it become moot at some point in life for some people? (excluding physical inability). Not that congruence itself becomes moot, but that certain types become more important than others?

[Bree-asaurus]

Interesting point. Even accepting for discussion that transition = SRS, does it become moot at some point in life for some people? (excluding physical inability). Not that congruence itself becomes moot, but that certain types become more important than others?

It obviously varies from person to person. But I'm wondering if maybe there are transsexuals who can live with their flawed body and it doesn't bother them as much because they somehow don't have the same... I don't know the word to use. But maybe how they see their body, while it doesn't fit, isn't as much of a burden as it is for other transsexuals. I'm obviously of the type that is bothered greatly by my body. I wonder if it's simply part of our character or our upbringing that determines just how much our ill-fitted bodies actually affect us mentally.

I'll be honest and say that I feel that transsexuals are devastated by their flawed bodies and do have the great desire to fix them. But that could very well be because that's how I am personally. I only know how I deal with being a transsexual, so I can't put myself in a mindset where my body wouldn't bother me as much (although I try very hard to empathize and understand people in various situations... I don't like it when people judge me, so I don't want to be the kind of person that judges others). Kind of like how straight people can kind of understand gay people, but not really. They only know what it's like to be straight, so they can imagine what it's like to be gay, but they don't quite understand.

[RachelOKC]

I stick to my original post that it is never too late to transition and to have SRS. One member here had her SRS at a late age and the doctor who did her SRS also successfully did SRS on someone who was terminally ill.

I can not think of a better way to go than with being "whole" and congruent.

Which brings me to another point, which I preface as my personal opinion: to be "whole" and congruent as a woman, requires SRS. And as our beloved Kate always proclaims, "women don't have penises".

So (and again to me) if you are not "wanting" SRS then you are not TS!

All right, shoot your arrows now.

I'll fire a few nerf arrows.

So to be clear, transwomen who absolutely *can't* have SRS aren't women? Or do they get an exception? Is this something to be documented on a piece of paper or on an arm tatoo? You probably have met a number of transwomen. Do you treat them as women when you meet them or do you ask about their genitals to make sure first? So if a transwoman who has very masculine traits that can't be hidden but has had SRS, would she be a woman? What about a very "passable" (I hate that concept, but I'm using the vernacular) transwoman who has NOT had SRS? What pronouns do you use if another transwoman hasn't had surgery yet? If you were speaking to a third party about an MTF friend you know hasn't had SRS, would you describe her as a man or a woman?

What about transmen? So if they don't have penises, they aren't men? If they do any kind of bottom surgery does that make them a man even though the form and function are often poor? What about people who've lost their penises through trauma? Are they no longer men?

Why does it matter to you (or anyone else) what makes another individual a woman or a man? Does their life have something to do with yours? Does it matter to you if it's a complete stranger or someone you know? Are people who have not have SRS lower in a hierarchy?

You are absolutely entitiled to your opinion, but I'm not sure why you're concerned with how and why others are defined as male or female!

[Badtranny]

well, a big test will be the next 10 days when I have to let go of any dressing and go camping with a bunch of bikers and rock musicians!.

Oh my. Whatever will you do with yourself? ;-)

[Badtranny]

"women don't have penises"

I would totally agree with you. ...if I hadn't been born with one myself.

[LeaP]

I'll fire a few nerf arrows. ...

Why does it matter to you (or anyone else) what makes another individual a woman or a man? Does their life have something to do with yours? Does it matter to you if it's a complete stranger or someone you know?

... I'm not sure why you're concerned with how and why others are defined as male or female!

I am. Not from the standpoint of hierarchy or fun with definitions, but because these endless round-robin discussions actually help me think through what I am and how I feel. The concept of congruence between body and mind is fundamental at some level in transsexuality. Hopefully no-one takes issue at that level of abstraction. For me - personally as it pertains to how I view myself, that is - that includes genitalia. I can see how age might change one's view, urgency, need, etc. of any particular point of physicality, however, and without changing one's sense of identity at all.

Oh, and thanks for keeping it to Nerf arrows!

[Bree-asaurus]

I'll fire a few nerf arrows.

So to be clear, transwomen who absolutely *can't* have SRS aren't women? Or do they get an exception? Is this something to be documented on a piece of paper or on an arm tatoo? You probably have met a number of transwomen. Do you treat them as women when you meet them or do you ask about their genitals to make sure first? So if a transwoman who has very masculine traits that can't be hidden but has had SRS, would she be a woman? What about a very "passable" (I hate that concept, but I'm using the vernacular) transwoman who has NOT had SRS? What pronouns do you use if another transwoman hasn't had surgery yet? If you were speaking to a third party about an MTF friend you know hasn't had SRS, would you describe her as a man or a woman?

What about transmen? So if they don't have penises, they aren't men? If they do any kind of bottom surgery does that make them a man even though the form and function are often poor? What about people who've lost their penises through trauma? Are they no longer men?

Why does it matter to you (or anyone else) what makes another individual a woman or a man? Does their life have something to do with yours? Does it matter to you if it's a complete stranger or someone you know? Are people who have not have SRS lower in a hierarchy?

You are absolutely entitiled to your opinion, but I'm not sure why you're concerned with how and why others are defined as male or female!

She said WANTING not HAVING!!!

So (and again to me) if you are not "[SIZE="4"]wanting[/SIZE]" SRS then you are not TS!

It's so amazing how people read one thing but think another!!! My boyfriend is FTM and he WANTS surgery... his options suck though. Him not having surgery doesn't make him any less of a man.

If you have a penis, and you love it and cherish it and never wish to part with it... then you are not transsexual... If you have a penis, and you wish you didn't and would like to get rid of it and have the proper genitalia, that is part of being a transsexual! THIS IS NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT ACTUALLY UNDERGOING SRS!!!

I would totally agree with you. ...if I hadn't been born with one myself.

Those aren't her words... she was quoting our very own Katesback.

---

Can we get all the transsexuals who agree to post something like 'the difference between want vs have' in their signatures or something?! It seems like all too often people think those two words are the same, despite having very different definitions... It seems that some people need to be slapped in the face with WANT WANT WANT NOT HAVE HAVE HAVE to get the point... and even then... *sigh*

If being transsexual is something you are born with, then how can it also be defined by something you do later on in life? It just doesn't make sense you all!!!!

I've never been so frustrated to be pushed to these levels of text formatting!!! READ WHAT IS BEING SAID!!!

[Teri Jean]

Lea, as a post op 63 yr young female the day you are old is the day they fit the sod over the coffin. BTW I am 1 year post op with a 48 yr old gf. You are not old.

[RachelOKC]

So if I as a transwoman don't "want" SRS then I'm not a woman? If I do "want" it, do I have to express it to other people? I dunno about you, but I generally avoid talk about my genitals with most people, even other transfolk. Do I have to tell people "I WANT A VAG!" in order to be accepted as a woman? Golly, I hope not!

Parse all you WANT ...but I'm still not sure why you give a tin shit about someone else's life.

[kimdl93]

This need not be a debate. Unless one must deal in absolutes (like katesback) its possible to accepymt the idea that a TS person can transition to a lesser or greater extent and legitimately consider themselves female, regardless of what the law or anatomy would dictate. And some of us though self defined as TG come very close to the fuzzy boundary...dressing out of need to express outwardly what we feel within. The matter of degree does matter, but I still feel strong kinship and empathy for those Jared the TS end of the spectrum.

[Bree-asaurus]

So if I as a transwoman don't "want" SRS then I'm not a woman? If I do "want" it, do I have to express it to other people? I dunno about you, but I generally avoid talk about my genitals with most people, even other transfolk. Do I have to tell people "I WANT A VAG!" in order to be accepted as a woman? Golly, I hope not!

Parse all you WANT ...but I'm still not sure why you give a tin shit about someone else's life.

Well, I could say the same thing right back at you. You can't partake in the argument and then say 'this is a stupid argument that I won't be a part of.' Well, you could... but then you'd be a hypocrite... hrmm... :P

I enjoy talking about this kind of stuff, for one reason or another. Depends on the thread.

I don't talk about my junk with other people on a day-to-day basis either. But guess what?!?!?! This forum and this thread involve talking about our junk!!! Sounds like a Starbucks customer asking 'what's the deal with all the coffee?'

If you don't want to talk about it, why are you talking about it? Make up your own definitions all you want... but most of us here go by the clinical definitions.

[RachelOKC]

(Beat dead horse - ON)

If you say you're a woman, then who am I to judge whether you are or aren't? Why does "want" for SRS matter? My opinion - it doesn't.

This is all academic to me personally because it has no impact on my life or my transition. I don't think my womanhood hinges on SRS but if someone else thinks so good for them. I just don't understand why they're so concerned. Feel free to go 'round and 'round the mulberry bush.

(Beat dead horse - OFF)

And to return on course: When 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not - but transition you may still do.

[Bree-asaurus]

I just don't understand why they're so concerned.

I don't care about you or what you do with your life the same way you don't care about me and what I do with mine... But this became a topic of SRS and transsexuals and peoples' opinions about those two things. That's what we're discussing... because it's a simple friggin discussion... not a analysis of YOUR life and what YOU do with it and who YOU are. It's people talking about opinions. If you don't want to talk about it, fine... you're taking things waaaay too personally like everyone here is trying to tell you who you are. There are plenty of people who talk about who I am (if I decide to take those kinds of discussions as personally as you are) as a transsexual... and I don't care.

If you don't want to partake in the sharing of opinions, then don't!

And maybe you totally ignored my post above where I actually kind of agreed with you and that I may not understand what I haven't personally experienced (if you want to beat a dead horse).

---

And for the record, being diagnosed as a transsexual, having that label, is what lets some of us get the mental, medical, government and social support we need to be ourselves and live our lives. If you want to call yourself a transsexual, but live as a man with a penis and be a girl on occasion and not need to take advantage of those things that some of us NEED, you go right ahead. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. But I needed HRT, gender change, surgery, future surgeries and more... so, yes, the definition of being transsexual is important to me, and that is also part of the reason I like to be a part of these kinds of discussions... because I can relate to those who need help.

[Kathryn Martin]

So saying you are something makes it so? No matter what your opinion is, fact is if you say you're the Queen does not make you so, neither does saying you're a woman make you one. Anatomically speaking women do have vaginas and men have penises. Being transsexual means that you are born with a body that is not congruent with your gender experience. Being transsexual by any acceptable description means that this experience of in-congruence creates urgency to become as closely approximated with your target gender as you can. That involves both hormones and surgery, if possible from a health and ability perspective.

It is the dilution of the transsexual condition with "women with penises" that has substantial and problematic societal and political consequences for transsexuals both in transsexual health care, legal decisions and assessments and the stance taken by government. Being transsexual with all of the attendant consequences of becoming congruent is not a lifestyle choice. You can be as feminine as you like and present as female as you like, you may even be a quintessential woman in appearance and behavior but if you believe that wanting to retain your penis and being a woman is possible then there is something fundamentally wrong.

There are transsexuals who are foreclosed from having SRS and taking hormones because of health conditions that prohibit it. In those circumstances other avenues can be found to find closest approximation, but the intention is to go as far as personal health circumstances permit. And it is this urgency of congruence that defines a transsexual.

(Beat dead horse - ON)

If you say you're a woman, then who am I to judge whether you are or aren't? Why does "want" for SRS matter? My opinion - it doesn't.

This is all academic to me personally because it has no impact on my life or my transition. I don't think my womanhood hinges on SRS but if someone else thinks so good for them. I just don't understand why they're so concerned. Feel free to go 'round and 'round the mulberry bush.

(Beat dead horse - OFF)

And to return on course: When 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not - but transition you may still do.

[Bree-asaurus]

So saying you are something makes it so? No matter what your opinion is, fact is if you say you're the Queen does not make you so, neither does saying you're a woman make you one. Anatomically speaking women do have vaginas and men have penises. Being transsexual means that you are born with a body that is not congruent with your gender experience. Being transsexual by any acceptable description means that this experience of in-congruence creates urgency to become as closely approximated with your target gender as you can. That involves both hormones and surgery, if possible from a health and ability perspective.

It is the dilution of the transsexual condition with "women with penises" that has substantial and problematic societal and political consequences for transsexuals both in transsexual health care, legal decisions and assessments and the stance taken by government. Being transsexual with all of the attendant consequences of becoming congruent is not a lifestyle choice. You can be as feminine as you like and present as female as you like, you may even be a quintessential woman in appearance and behavior but if you believe that wanting to retain your penis and being a woman is possible then there is something fundamentally wrong.

There are transsexuals who are foreclosed from having SRS and taking hormones because of health conditions that prohibit it. In those circumstances other avenues can be found to find closest approximation, but the intention is to go as far as personal health circumstances permit. And it is this urgency of congruence that defines a transsexual.

She can call herself a transsexual all she wants, and tell other people there is no definition of transsexual all she wants. She's not the one that NEEDs that definition to survive.

But nah... the quality of transsexual's lives (or even the ability to HAVE lives) is boring to Rachel. I hear another yawn coming on...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Yes, because marginalizing the people who are learning who they are and need help living their life is boring. Good job with the empathy.

But again, your opinion of having not wanting people to share their opinions is of great relevance.

Rachel your hair trigger is showing through your nerf arrows....

if you want to be taken seriously, you need a better arguement than the equivalent of I know you are but what am I...

[LeaP]

Lea, as a post op 63 yr young female the day you are old is the day they fit the sod over the coffin. BTW I am 1 year post op with a 48 yr old gf. You are not old.

Thank you, Teri. Currently, I'm more of your mindset. But see below ...

If being transsexual is something you are born with, then how can it also be defined by something you do later on in life? It just doesn't make sense you all!!!!

Thank you for providing the key!

We get to definitions from a discussion of age because urgency around the resolution of the congruence issue is included in the classifications of transsexuals ("definitions"). So the suggestion that age could change urgency seems to call the criteria into question, hence transsexuality itself. The energy in the responses around this stem from the threat to people's identity as a result. After all, if urgency can change, ONE implication that might be made is that one's transsexuality might be mutable.

The key is the stability of fundamental identity over the span of a life - even through changes in thought, attitude, coping mechanisms, and even awareness. One IS transsexual from birth (or shortly thereafter, depending on whose theories you subscribe to), yet there may be no awareness until later in life. There are usually early indicators, even when the identity issue is deeply buried, but often a happy childhood and little or nothing that raises congruence urgency until years later.

Similarly, age does change one's priorities and urgency. I can virtually assure everyone in this thread, for example (including me), that they will lose their need to be right or have the last word on a given controversy. Yet no-one expects to lose their identity. Much as one can become used to a disability, one might grow into reconciling with their habitus, perhaps not liking it, but no longer desiring or needing to change it, either. This often accompanies normal aging, though not necessarily so. Shall we declare this person a transsexual at birth, all through years of terrible dysphoria, through a social transition, HRT, perhaps FFS, but then having the urgency around SRS abate at old age suddenly decide that we were wrong after all?

The reality is that needs and urgency can and do change in many older people, including the need to maintain life itself. It doesn't change who they are.

[Badtranny]

if you want to be taken seriously, you need a better argument than the equivalent of I know you are but what am I...

This is painful for me because Bree, Kait, and Kat are kind of misunderstanding Rach, but I totally understand why. I know Ms OKC personally and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that she is much more reasonable than she is coming off. In fact I totally agree with her point, but on the other hand I kind of agree with the others too. The funny thing is, I know Rachel can definitely understand the "urgency of congruence" and I also know she understands how important SRS is and can be.

Such is the nature of forums I suppose.

[Bree-asaurus]

This is painful for me because Bree, Kait, and Kat are kind of misunderstanding Rach, but I totally understand why. I know Ms OKC personally and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that she is much more reasonable than she is coming off. In fact I totally agree with her point, but on the other hand I kind of agree with the others too. The funny thing is, I know Rachel can definitely understand the "urgency of congruence" and I also know she understands how important SRS is and can be.

Such is the nature of forums I suppose.

Yup. That is the nature of the internet. I'm just responding to what I read. I don't take it personally.