Miss USA transgender question

[rachelgirlnw1]

(apologies if this has been discussed already. I searched but didn't see it...)

In the Miss USA contest, what did you think of Miss Rhode Island Olivia Culpo's answer to this question?

Question:
"Would you feel it would be fair that a transgender woman wins the Miss USA title over a natural-born woman?"

Miss Culpo's answer:
"I do think that that would be fair, but I can understand that people would be a little apprehensive to take that road because there is a tradition of natural-born women, but today where there are so many surgeries and so many people out there who have a need to change for a happier life, I do accept that because I believe it's a free country."


My follow-up question to the forum would be, there have been recent changes to allow transgender women to compete in the Miss USA contest. Do you think a transgender woman would be more or less accepted at the Miss Universe competition than at the Miss USA competition?

rachel

[NaomiHikaru]

It's hard to say. We are in times that are more accepting of things like transgendered and gays. That's not to say we don't have issues anymore either, such as gay rights. To answer your question, as long as there isn't a bright neon sign over the head of the contestant that says they are transgendered, who could tell the difference and be biased against that contestant?

[rachelgirlnw1]

Yes, but Miss USA allows body mods (lots of boob jobs). Miss America does not.

[NaomiHikaru]

Nathalie, I forgot about that. These beauty contests do seem to be superficial and to me it kind of demeans women. Yes they are pretty, but honestly I would prefer an average woman with a great personality over one of those contestants anyday. Also being from Texas, there are a lot of shows here about these young, like 6 and even 7 year olds being all dressed up by their mom's with makeup and clothes and then being put on display. That kind of stuff bothers me as it seems that we are not teaching children the fundamentals and allowing them to choose their own path.

[WyrmQueen]

Yes , Naomi.......you are correct. I am very against these mothers who are into the "toddlers & tiaras" thing. Kids should be kids, they should enjoy being kids while they can before they grow up to be adults.

I think it's OK if it's the kid that wants it. Not the mother living vicariously through their daughter.

So to me, as long as the kid is the one that desires it and is not being forced by their parents, it's cool.

[Sophie_C]

It's all a gradual process. I believe in due time, if a trans woman cares to go through the whole pageantry process (I once had a friend of a friend who did it, and it seemed more strange and a pain than anything), she'll be able to achieve it. This is just the beginning. Remember that.

[skylance]

In my opinion, it would be extremely difficult to be a TG in one of these competitions. It just seems that competitions of this nature, especially ones with these high stakes also carry with them an atmosphere of fierce, and sometimes, even underhanded tactics. Given that, if it were to be discovered that one of the competitors was a TG, it could very easily be used to create a judicial or even public bias against that individual. Of course, times may have evolved much more than that and I may be completely wrong, but I do believe that with things the way they are, it would be next to impossible, at least in the U.S. Perhaps someday soon it might happen, and to be honest, I would like to see it before the end of my life.

[Cheryl123]

Miss USA/Miss World is all about fashion modeling. I'm actually surprised transgender women have not broken through the barrier before this. They have made an impact in the fashion world for many years -- check out his link. http://izismile.com/2012/01/14/famou...s_10_pics.html

[Tina B.]

If we are going to recognize trans women, as women, then why should they not be able to compete, After some thinking on it, the tennis world accepted Renee Richards, why not beauty pageants, it you got what it takes to compete, I say let them go for it, and may the best, prettiest win, then you can tell me all about it, because I wouldn't waste my time watching one, even the evening gown competition looks more like costumes anymore, fit for a stage, not for wearing in the real world, so I have no interest in them.
Tina B.

[BillieJoEllen]

Ah yes, Renne' Richards. Remember when a lot of people were concerned that more and more men would undergo SRS just so they could compete in women's Tennis? They were saying it was an unfair advantage.

[docrobbysherry]

They USED to be, "beauty contests". Now, they should be called, "politically correct", contests! When I was 16, I could ALWAYS pick the finalists! These days, the prettiest ones r often left out because of something superficial noticed by a "judge". It's all political nonsense these days.

They ought to go back to having the prettiest ones win. GG, TS, whatever! Yeah, I KNOW those days r gone forever! Sigh!

[Shananigans]

Meh...it's just a beauty contest at the end of the day. I, unfortunately, bought into the idea some years ago that I needed to be paraded around on stage and judged on my body.

Then, I found better things to do with my life.

Are TG women excluded in these pageants? Well, many of these pageant women look very similar. There is a certain way that you must look to get past state competitions. Therefore, most natal GGs are already excluded. It sucks to say that, but it's true. I can imagine that many TG women would be excluded. However, a TG woman that met the same beauty ideal that has been subjectively defined by the people who run these shows would be fine. (I hope you catch the subtly here).

I'm sure a lot of those girls have had some nip/tuck done. However, I will say that they all look very naturally beautiful in a somewhat magazine-defined sort of way.

At the end of the day, I feel people expect way too much from these competitions. You are essentially parading around women on stage and voting on which one looked the hottest in a variety of ensembles.

Do you honestly think the people that get sucked into that mindset are spending much time debating the political problems of the world?

I'm just ashamed of myself that someone talked me into doing pageants. I'd love to say that I never had any involvement. (I actually think it would be in a TG woman's best interest not to get involved...buy, if you MUST...go for it). However, I will say that seeing both sides of the equation was...enlightening. And, I could never have been quite as aware as I am now if I hadn't demeaned myself by allowing others to rank my worth in terms of outward appearances.

But, I don't expect much change in that most people are going to make very valued judgements purely on physical phenomenon. I'm almost okay with this, because it makes meeting people that think outside of the box so much more special to me.

[Kate Simmons]

I agree with Shan. These beauty contests don't mean squat to me, never did, never will. I could really care less who looks better or which one can outdo the rest. Your heart determines who you are as a person and you are really only limited by your own imagination. What you can accomplish is really determined by you not a bunch of people judging you. I know who I am and what I am capable of in any case, not a bunch of strangers.

[Sarah C.]

I suspect that question was asked due to the recent Miss Universe Canada contestant, Jenna Talackova, who is TG. This raised a lot of fuss here in Canada. Do a google search on her name for the full story.

[ReineD]

Nathalie, I forgot about that. These beauty contests do seem to be superficial and to me it kind of demeans women. Yes they are pretty, but honestly I would prefer an average woman with a great personality over one of those contestants anyday.

My feelings exactly. When anyone enters these contests (GG or transwoman), she gives me the impression that she believes the ultimate value of a woman is her beauty and her body. Although I can appreciate that GGs are socialized from an early age to measure themselves against the media's mostly "fake" ideals of a beautiful woman, I admire the GGs who don't fall for this, especially those who are on the upper end of the beauty scale. And I would admire a transwoman who wouldn't subject herself to such a vacuous exercise even more. To me, she would truly epitomize true womanhood if she prized her intellect and her accomplishments more than her looks.

I feel the same way about male models, BTW. Nothing is sexier to me than a beautiful man who is more interested in other things than his appearance.

There are shows on television about toddler and children beauty pageants. I think this is atrocious.

[Shananigans]

I left and thought for a bit. I think TG women should have a fundamental right to compete if that's what they want to do. After all, any GG could compete...but, unless she matches an ideal, she won't make it through the cut.

I guess, everyone should have the right to do what they want...though, I do want to shake people sometimes.

Everyone has a path to follow in life. I can't push people on my path just because I have decided that it is good for me. If GGs and TG women want to do beauty pageants, let them. It really has very little to do with me...and, I'm guessing very few people really put much value in the qualities of what makes that person a "winner." So, it should really be up to the people that choose to involve themselves in this lifestyle. They seem to think much differently than those who have posted (or, they wouldn't do it). Will they be the types of people to say, "Yes, we should accept trans women, because they should be proud of themselves and their bodies?" I honestly do not know.

It really effects me very little. I saw the pageant and was pleased with the answer by the winner. I think I know what she was trying to say. It would be fair to let trans women compete...but, keep in mind these pageants aren't concerned with variety...you must meet a specific ideal. Will this be a good path to go down for women that have struggled to accept their bodies from day 1...or, who have found happiness now that they transitioned? Would it be devastating to be told once more that you aren't the ideal? I'm not sure. If a TG woman won, would it raise the self-esteem of all TG women? Or, would there be a comparison drawn from the winner to themselves? When a GG wins a competition, do I feel my self-esteem raised that a woman has won something? Or, do I just get more sad that we see our mind as in our bodies, instead of our bodies as in our minds?

I don't know.

[Alice B]

First of all I think her answer was very well stated from an obvious well educated woman. Do I think the Miss World Pagent would be more accepting than the Miss USA? Hard to answer, but I think yes.

[BRANDYJ]

I have never been a fan of any beauty pageants or beauty contests. I was channel surfing and saw that the Miss USA pageant was on the other night. I stayed for about 5 minutes and then on to find something worth watching. True, some of the contestants are beautiful. But I can go to a busy mall and see just as many beautiful women. And as ReineD said, the pageants for children are atrocious and despicable. What is really despicable are the parents that enter their kids. I am even more against them since the JonBenet Ramsey murder. As for my feelings about trans women entering, I could care less one way or the other.

[DonnaT]

My follow-up question to the forum would be, there have been recent changes to allow transgender women to compete in the Miss USA contest. Do you think a transgender woman would be more or less accepted at the Miss Universe competition than at the Miss USA competition?

The rules for Miss Universe have already been changed to allow women with a trans history to compete.

Trump owns both contests, and unless the rules state surgical enhancement of any kind is forbidden, I believe Miss USA will allow entry.

I picked Miss Rhode Island to win the first time I saw her. I believe, given the time constraints on answering the question, she did quite well, and her answer received loud approval from the audience.

[NicoleScott]

I can take them or leave them, or watch if there's nothing better on. They are what they are. I just don't like what they are becoming.
I agree with Doc. They are becoming politically correct contests. Answer those liberal litmus test questions the wrong way and you're done.

[Shananigans]

Life is a politically correct contest. Piss off the wrong people and you're done.

[Anna Lorree]

Life is a politically correct contest. Piss off the wrong people and you're done.

Maybe THAT'S my problem!!!

Anna

[docrobbysherry]

Life is a politically correct contest. Piss off the wrong people and you're done.

I'm just wondering what u did with your crown, Shana? I noticed you're NOT wearing it in your new avatar----?

[Veronica27]

Why are we referring to these contestants as transgendered? If they have fully transitioned, then they should be recognized as women, which means they should have as much right as any woman to compete. The difficulty with using terminology such as TG is that a large segment of the population uses it as a blanket term to refer to everyone who wears clothing intended for the opposite sex. Should we allow drag queens, casual crossdressers, fetishists, as well as the truly transgendered (who may or may not contemplate transition) to enter such contests?

Personally, I don't care, as I am not a personal fan of such exhibitions, but I just see this as a source of confusion for many. People who would have no objection to a TS competing for the obvious reasons, might view a "man" competing, especially if well "disguised", as disgusting, a mockery or even worse. I cringe every time I hear the media refer to these contestants as transgendered, because of the ambiguity. If they are women, however created, then they are women, period, and deserve to be treated as such. If not, then don't enter, unless the pageant makes it clear that it is a truly open pageant, open to whoever can make the best female presentation, be they man, woman, or somewhere in between. Drop the TG, and just call them contestants.

Veronica

[Shananigans]

I'm just wondering what u did with your crown, Shana? I noticed you're NOT wearing it in your new avatar----?

Haha I was doing the pageant thing when I was a teenager. I think it would be a little weird to put pictures of my teenage self on here.

My crowns and trophies sit on my mom's fireplace mantle. She enjoys them more than I do it seems. (She's a proud momma).