Where do you draw the line?

[Bree-asaurus]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE people, let's keep this civil... the whole premise of this thread is sure to cause controversy if it's taken too personally...

Out of boredom, I was about to post a gimmick thread of "what color panties are YOU wearing?" when I remembered a conversation with a non-trans non-cd member of our local support group. We are open to any LGBT, but the people who show up are usually transsexual or there to support transsexuals.

We also had someone visit our local group, Nikki Araguz, who has been in the news recently. I'm sure you can google her name and find out why she's been in the news for the past two years. She identifies as intersexted AND transsexual and was expelled from an intersexted group because she also identified as transsexual (she is the widow of a firefighter, who's previous wife brought to light that she was transsexual in an effort to get the dead husband's money). They only want people who identify solely as intersexed and want nothing to do with transsexuals... which prompted my questions...

ANYWAY! the cis-woman member of our support group (may have been a founder, not sure) and I were talking about our acceptance of cross dressers in our group and if the term transgender should include cross dressers. However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

I wanted to see if we could start a civil conversation about this... and I am posting this in the public transsexual forum so cross dressers can take part in this.

Mods, if I am crossing any lines here... please let me know. I would like to have an honest discussion here...

[Marleena]

Okay I'll try this. First of all put me down as a "middle pather" I'm dealing with GID. The old joke comes to mind how long from Cd to TS (2 years). Many CD's do end up discovering they are actually TS. So if they are left out of the TG umbrella it is a dis-service to them.

Also keep in mind that the TS group is very small and there are divisions within the ranks itself regarding who is a true TS relating to SRS or not. It is fractured.

I've mentioned many times here that the general public does not know the difference between a TS girl, a CDer, or a drag queen. To them it's just a man in a dress. So the girls out there in public that are not TS are opening doors for everybody including the TS girls. They are helping the cause and should be protected in the umbrella group.


There is strength in numbers.

Feel free to to discredit my thoughts, they are my own opinion.

[LeaP]

Recognizing that some crossdressers are unaware of their own gender issues, just as some transsexuals identity as crossdressers prior to figuring out THEIR issues, even so ...

No, it makes no sense to me. I think gender identity is THE point and if there is no cross-gender identification at all, there is NO point (at least other than political).

[Bree-asaurus]

The old joke comes to mind how long from Cd to TS (2 years). Many CD's do end up discovering they are actually TS.

This is a perfect example of why I want to keep it civil. This is EXACTLY where I came from. I joined this forum when I was thinking and HOPING I was a CD. In addition to internal studies, meeting CDers and TSs on here quickly helped me realize where I really fit.

[max]

However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity.

This isn't always true. There are crossdressers who don't particularly identify as male or female, and all shades of in-between. Just because someone doesn't believe themselves transsexual doesn't mean there aren't gender identity issues.

[Bree-asaurus]

This isn't always true. There are crossdressers who don't particularly identify as male or female, and all shades of in-between. Just because someone doesn't believe themselves transsexual doesn't mean there aren't gender identity issues.

If you identify partially or totally as a certain gender and dress as you identify, then you are not a cross dresser. You are transgender. I'm not talking about people who don't properly label themselves. CROSS dressing is dressing as a gender you do not identify as... hence the CROSS.

[max]

If you identify partially or totally as a certain gender and dress as you identify, then you are not a cross dresser. You are transgender. I'm not talking about people who don't properly label themselves. CROSS dressing is dressing as a gender you do not identify as... hence the CROSS.

Erm where do you draw the "crossdresser" line then?
Just at say 100 % male / 0 % female?
95/5?
80/20?
50/50?

[Bree-asaurus]

Erm where do you draw the "crossdresser" line then?
Just at say 100 % male / 0 % female?
95/5?
80/20?
50/50?

100%/0%... there are tons of cross dressers who are totally happy living as the men they grew up to be, but like to cross dress for reasons OTHER THAN gender identity. If you're in-between male/female I'm not talking about you.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Many "moons" ago, when I romped and played of youth, I lumped CD/DQ/TG/TS under ONE large umbrella.

But today, I am sure I will catch flack over this forthcoming statement. Nevertheless, it is "MY" absolute opinion that CD's or anyone else for that matter who wants to keep their penises for whatever reason are NOT transsexual. AND Transsexuals who want to keep that label are NOT WOMEN!

Now Remember Bree said we want to be "CIVIL." So unload your shotguns and take this olive branch that I offer you!

[arbon]

Traci - Bree asked if they should be included under the transgender umbrella, not if they are transsexual

[Dawn cd]

As my moniker states, I am a crossdresser who regards himself as primariy male. My presentation, however, is androgynous, and I have been drawn to female clothing since I was very young. I am happy in this betweeny state. So are you saying I am not transgender...even somewhat?

[AllieSF]

I think that first, you Bree need to define what are your definitions of each terminology we will end up using in this thread. I believe that the term "transgender" includes all of us from CD's wearing panties to post op transitioned TS's. A crossdresser in the UK is sometimes more commonly called a transvestite going back to the original meaning/translation of the word. From my experience here and in South America, it is more of a negative term referring to those who do all this and transition partially for sexual gratification and as a way to earn money. So, which one do we use? I think that here in the USA TG is considered an umbrella term that includes CD's and recognizes people fall all over the place in what they feel, do and think that they are. So, base definitions need to be the starting point for this discussion, or you will get answers all over the place that actually may be very similar. Oh yes, and then the shit starts hitting the fan and your moment of pondering from a funny to serious question for a thread starts to disintegrate into a name calling discussion, rants and raves! That is fun sometimes too.

[Rianna Humble]

since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

I feel that it is unfortunate that you appear to have based your question on such narrow definitions of who or what a cross-dresser is and what transgender means.

Firstly, I believe that the World Professional Association for Transgender Health would not agree with your contention that no cross-dressers suffer from gender identification issues. As I understand it, this is why they make allowances in the latest Standards of Care for those who suffer from gender dysphoria without being transsexual.

Secondly there are cross-dressers who do not self-identify as one gender or the other. Whilst we are free to use terms such as bi-gender, or dual-gender to describe them, the fact is that their self-identification crosses the traditional notions of gender so from an identity perspective they are trans gender individuals.

Thirdly there is the whole question of noun or adjective. The word "transgender" can be both. When used as an adjective it describes anything that crosses (trans) the gender norms. I accept that many fetish cross-dressers do not agree with the adjective being used to describe their behaviour but some do.

If you wish to draw a line, then you will first need to establish some kind of objective method of assessment for where an individual is relative to that line. I am not convinced that such an objective measure currently exists.

Many people, myself included, believe that you are born transsexual. Yet for many years I behaved as if I did not identify with the gender I have always known myself to be. Was I transgendered whilst I was in denial and trying to portray myself as a man both to myself and to others?

Did I "become" trangendered at a certain point in my adult life even though as a child I used to cry myself to sleep wishing that I could wake up as the girl I knew I was meant to be?

What of the cross-dresser who feels compelled to dress despite their best intentions? Can we truly say that they "simply like women's clothing for one reason or another"?

[elizabethamy]

For the vast majority of cross dressers (90%? more?), this is a compulsion, not a hobby. If a guy wanted to take up a new pastime, opportunities abound. Softball is nice, tennis very satisfying, golf offers fresh air, cars are fun, and falconry can make you just feel medievally cool. Crossdressing, however, makes everyone around you nuts if they know about it, and so usually you go to great lengths to keep it closeted, which makes it an often unsatisfying practice.
It's just not a hobby that most people would choose.

Which is my point -- that men who crossdress and are still sure they want to remain men are nonetheless at least somewhat transgendered, or they wouldn't feel the compulsion to dress and risk the ridicule, humiliation, and other fallout that is likely to come. Therefore, for me I don't see a line. Each transgendered person (leaving out those few who really are just plain doing this for fun) sits somewhere on a continuum between the two "official" genders. So many of us struggle with your question -- what are each of our "percentages" male and female? And if we could figure that out, then what? Having gone from 0% to some number that seems to get higher and higher on your scale, Bree, I just become more and more convinced that while each of us might find a comfort zone or stable place on the 0-100% scale, there is nonetheless no "line." 2 cents worth.

elizabethamy

[WifeofWrenchette]

For the vast majority of cross dressers (90%? more?), this is a compulsion, not a hobby. If a guy wanted to take up a new pastime, opportunities abound. Softball is nice, tennis very satisfying, golf offers fresh air, cars are fun, and falconry can make you just feel medievally cool. Crossdressing, however, makes everyone around you nuts if they know about it, and so usually you go to great lengths to keep it closeted, which makes it an often unsatisfying practice.
It's just not a hobby that most people would choose.

Which is my point -- that men who crossdress and are still sure they want to remain men are nonetheless at least somewhat transgendered, or they wouldn't feel the compulsion to dress and risk the ridicule, humiliation, and other fallout that is likely to come. Therefore, for me I don't see a line. Each transgendered person (leaving out those few who really are just plain doing this for fun) sits somewhere on a continuum between the two "official" genders. So many of us struggle with your question -- what are each of our "percentages" male and female? And if we could figure that out, then what? Having gone from 0% to some number that seems to get higher and higher on your scale, Bree, I just become more and more convinced that while each of us might find a comfort zone or stable place on the 0-100% scale, there is nonetheless no "line." 2 cents worth.

elizabethamy

Exactly. My husband is a cross dresser yet struggles deeply with his male and female percentages.

[ColleenA]

Hmm, while I was composing my reply, AllieSF, Rianna and elizabethamy came along and made many similar points. Even so, here’s my take on it.

If you identify partially or totally as a certain gender and dress as you identify, then you are not a cross dresser. You are transgender.

As I see it, Bree, you are asking to nail down one specific definition for the word transgender and then use it to sort who is on which side of the line it represents.

One problem is that this is a pretty amorphous line. As others have mentioned already, people need time to work through and come to terms with who they truly are - as you have stated about your own journey. (And as repressive as society can still be for people struggling with this, it was even more repressive before you were born, which is why many here were or are still dealing with such questions well into their 40s, 50s and beyond.)

Another problem is that there is no one uniform definition that all agree to. Transgender has been, generally speaking, far more broadly applied than transsexual has. Even so, look up definitions of the word on dictionary.com, wikipedia, and urban dictionary, to name a few, and you will see at least some range of definitions. Let's go further and poll small-minded, bigoted people - we will find that their definition of transgender would include terms like freaks and perverts, no matter if the person is TS or CD, gay or straight. Granted, you brought up the topic on this forum, where there should be more agreement, but still ...

Finally (then I'll get off my high horse), you make some presumptuous statements about me and other CDs, such as "They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male ..." and "there are tons of cross dressers who are totally happy living as the men they grew up to be ... "

Just because I have reconciled myself to the fact that I am not a woman does not mean I am totally happy living as a man. I have few male friends; I don't interact with many men much beyond the normal bounds of work (where, btw, I have often found myself in fields with higher proportions of women). While I can hold my own to some extent in conversations about football, I have no interest in bonding with other men over typical interests such as cars or other sports.

Meanwhile, I wish I could have womanly interactions with women. I have many female friends, but I am ever aware that I am excluded from participating in discussions on a wide range of topics. I can know a woman for years, yet there remain taboo topics that she can discuss instantly with a woman she has just met. In some very real ways, I feel pain from that rejection deeply.

- Do I wish I had been born female? Definitely. But that is just as much a waste of time as wishing I could go back in time and stop Hitler from coming to power.
- If a genie granted me the wish to become a woman, would I take it? I would seriously have to think things through, and there is a good chance I would say yes.
- But as things are now, am I woman? No.
- And could I transition? It would be reckless of me to force an attempt.
- So, am I transgender? Hmm, to me, there is no clear-cut answer.

[JulieK1980]

If you identify partially or totally as a certain gender and dress as you identify, then you are not a cross dresser. You are transgender. I'm not talking about people who don't properly label themselves. CROSS dressing is dressing as a gender you do not identify as... hence the CROSS.

A necessary technicality here: A crossdresser is a person that wears the clothes of the opposite physiological gender. The definition does not take into account feelings, or gender dysphoria. It is simply a description of a person that performs an activity.

An actor that dresses in female clothes for a role in a movie is a crossdresser. A male who uses panties for sexual frills is a crossdresser, a TS that was born male and transitions to female is a crossdresser, a drag queen that performs in the opposite gender is a crossdresser, etc. etc.

The problem is not whether to exclude a group, the real problem is defining that group. "Crossdresser" is such a broad term, that it is difficult to draw any lines at all because the term is poorly defined. A person that identifies as a "crossdresser" could self identify as any of the groups I mentioned above, or any other variance. Where DO you draw the line? Because drawing a line will inevitably exclude people that the group is designed for. Ultimately our labels are simply not adequate.

[ReineD]

... were talking about our acceptance of cross dressers in our group and if the term transgender should include cross dressers. However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

The people who do not belong under the transgender umbrella, in my opinion, are people who solidly identify with their birth sex, i.e, cismen, ciswomen, and transvectic fetishists for whom the reason to dress is for sexual fetish only and they have not one iota of cross-gender identity. (We can leave for a different discussion whether or not fully transitioned TSs should be considered transanything. I don't believe they fall under the transgender umbrella, but others may argue the point based on chromosomes).

Back to crossdressers: the majority of the Cders that I know do identify to a degree (even if it is a small degree) with femininity or they have some feminine characteristics and preferences, even if they do not believe themselves to be fully female. They do have some discordance with what is designated as male or masculine in our culture, even if they do not have the language to express this or the ability to understand a state of gender that is non-binary.

In other words, cismen do not as a rule wish to fully present as women without sexual motives unless they feel a degree of satisfaction from doing so. Further, I believe the term "crossdresser" to be a catch-all for fetish CDs and identity CDs. I do not believe that identity CDs are transsexuals and I think a better term for them is "dualgender" or "bigender".

So yes, the majority of CDers as we know them here and according to the motives they post, do belong under the transgender umbrella.

Edit

If you identify partially or totally as a certain gender and dress as you identify, then you are not a cross dresser. You are transgender. I'm not talking about people who don't properly label themselves. CROSS dressing is dressing as a gender you do not identify as... hence the CROSS.

Have you noticed in the media, the tendency in the last few years to refer to transitioning children as "transgender", when they should say these kids are transsexual? What about the identity cross-dressers who do not identify with the fetish crossdressers, and who also call themselves "transgender". Also the people who don't know what to call themselves so they prefer to stick to the ambiguous term, "transgender", even if they are TS and are not ready to see this. And where to the Androgynes fit in? The genderqueer? The DQs & DKs? The trouble with this term when people attempt to apply it to themselves and their particular circumstances without any additional words to describe their intent, is that it just doesn't explain much.

The term "transgender" is best left to describe all people for whom gender identity is not fully congruent with birth sex. And once someone has established they do fall under the transgender umbrealla, it is up to them to describe themselves specifically. And I also agree, the term "crossdresser" is in sore need of a makeover. We know a lot more about the various motives and needs now that are behind the act of "crossdressing", compared to when the term was first coined ... when was it, at the beginning of last century? The term only describes what a person does and it says absolutely nothing about any underlying gender identity.

[KellyJameson]

When one group pretends to be women it affects the group that are women trying to be recognized as such. This is my primary problem with crossdressers who identify as male, it is not their responsibility or fault but it is true none the less.

Is it possible to be TS and not have crossdressed at some point?

Can a man still be thought of as cisgendered but still crossdress ?

To wish as a male to emulate the female out of adoration by transforming ones appearance is elevating the female over the male and so is a rejection however slight of ones own gender by identifying with the female, why do they not adore the male instead of the female, because they already are male and want to be something else but that something else is still them.

Is the adoration born out of their heterosexual desire for women? Is adoration and sexual desire the same thing? Is crossdressing only a erotic exercise ?

If the heterosexual drive is the reason to crossdress than this does not seem to fall under the TG umbrella but there seems to be much more than just sex driving it for most male identified crossdressers and to me their words sound like they identify as female but within a male frame work.

I think a person is born TS but never the less must discover the words to articulate this consciously and this becomes a personal journey that clothing assists in at least initially so by taking crossdressing out from under the TG umbrella the person could be taken out as well when being included could be the difference between life and death.

Just as there are masculine females and feminine males are there different degree's that someone is TS in that they retain some masculine qualities even though they are woman?

In my opinion most if not all heterosexual males could crossdress because all would be able to identify with the female within them if for no other reason than that males and females are more alike than they are different

As strange as this may sound I think every human being falls under the TG umbrella in one way or another at some point in their lives whether they know it or not, but very few are TS simply because you cannot become TS you can only be born into it.

[LisaMallon]

I've been through some of these arguments in the CD/TG/etc groups I am involved with. And I get constantly amazed at the passion (even venom) between certain groups.
We don't have all the scientific data yet, but everything I have read shows that this is far more of a continuum.

No person exists in a vacuum, their behaviour is a product of their environment, their social/economic/etc situation at any particular point in time.
All of these impact your decisions and of course they change over time.

I have talked to many long term CD'ers and quite a few have said that if they had been born in more recent times they might have transitioned. But they couldn't.
And then as time wore on they gained responsibilities and habits which were hard to break, so they 'femulate' at times, that is their release, their happy time.

To put it more in perspective, when I grew up and felt the things I did at a very young age, there was no thing such as transgendered.
If at any stage I had come out with it my parents would have been horrified and tried to put it all away.
If society, as it was then, came to know about it I would have lucky to just get away with my brain being electro shocked into jelly, unlucky I would have had a brain operation. In any case I would have been drugged into insensibility.
Here in Australia, in Victoria it was illegal for a male to wear womens clothes (still is in Tasmania). You went to jail, until the psychs got you if you were unlucky.

So a lot of older CDs are those that made the best deal with life that they could.

For younger one now, they feel something, start dressing and get a balance in some ways. They come to forums like this.
And they find their own personal solution, which as always is a compromise. Even people that transition fully compromise to an extent.

Some, like myself, move further towards transition, some keep at one level, some go back.
Some change through time, me a long time CD'er, now starting transition.

Some give it up entirely through love (that seems to be the single biggest reason), their love of their partner, their love of their children for example.
Money matters, now I have told just about everyone socially that I am transitioning .. but not those I do work for.
I intend, eventually of course, but I like to eat. My dog need to eat. So this will happen carefully and slowly.

Some of it is more internal, the desires only happen infrequently (maybe a hormonal cycle?), so they find their balance by riding the waves.
Lots of talk here about the 'pink fog', I personally know that you get worried when you are in that 'pink' stage all the time.

But I don't think there is any real difference in totality, just in degree and how we, as individuals all in our own circumstance and situations deal with it to the best of their abilities.

[Kathryn Martin]

There seem to be several misunderstandings that create some issues. Transgender as an umbrella term describes anyone who struggles with the identity of their gender or their sex. Someone who is a crossdresser, autogynephiliac, gender queers or for that matter a transvestic fetishist have issues with their gender even if they never would think of changing their sex. The range in which these gender issues can occur go from non acceptance of the binary gender configuration (gender queer) to gender expression and presentation (crossdressers) to how their sexual expression works (autogynephilliacs, autoandrophiliacs) that is arousal and gratification come from idealizing oneself as a sexual being in the other gender, to externalizing sexual arousal through the help of objects in this case female or male clothing (transvestic fetishists). All of these and combinations of these nevertheless can create severe struggles with how gender is perceived and coped with. It is always a gender identity struggle even if it is purely about sexual gratification. Dysphoria here is the heart of the struggle. All of these persons are gender variant.

For transsexuals it is not about gender. The struggle with gender that we perceive through dysphoria is more connected to social anxiety about how one would be perceived if one would follow the gender that is at the root of a transsexuals being. Most transsexuals once they overcome their social anxiety and accept who they are and act on it have no dysphoria. For them it is all about bringing into congruence their body to what they are in their emotional and spiritual inner configuration.

In this sense dysphoria for gender variant persons is the struggle they go through. For transsexuals the struggle is in-congruence which masks itself as dysphoria (which really is just a fancy word for depression) and is a transitory state while the acceptance issues and in-congruence issues are worked out. I have yet to see a transsexual who after successful transition still suffers from depression associated with their gender identity.

I believe that we all need support in one form or another and the classification of transgender attempts to create advocacy for all. However, the real issue is if lumping everyone into one pot which is generally done by transgender advocates serves the real issues each of those groups face. The issue for transsexuals is a medical issue and requires certain very specific things from a trans health perspective. The issue for gender variant persons requires certain things from a social acceptance perspective. But conflating sex and gender under the transgender umbrella, the very real trans health issues get drowned out by the social acceptance demands. A typical example is the recent decision by the Ontario Human Rights Commission. It decided that the threshold of requiring surgery to allow for the changes in documentation is not reasonable (clearly advocacy from a transgender perspective) resulting in a significantly reduced need to fund surgery if the decision is accepted. Why would the government fund this if it is not necessary to have the surgery to permit full social acceptance in the target gender. The result is that transsexuals who need surgery because of their health problem will be cut off. (this possibility by the way is my main reason not support this decision).

Persons with gender variance are equally entitled to have their demands heard, suffer equally from gender dysphoria but for different reasons. They are and should be recognized and need our support as much as transsexuals do. However, for very different reasons.

ANYWAY! the cis-woman member of our support group (may have been a founder, not sure) and I were talking about our acceptance of cross dressers in our group and if the term transgender should include cross dressers. However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

[Paula_56]

The whole thing about being Transgender is just that, I don't know where I fit, there are days I'm booking airfare to Thailand and then there are the purges. There are so many factors, family, guilt, shame, FEAR that influence and confuse us....................can I explain it all in thread No! I am transgendered.

[steph1964]

However, since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another. Should they be included under the transgender umbrella even though they have no actual internal gender identification issues?

So what is the alternative, to have separate groups? I don’t wish this to sound argumentative because I think that this is a good post, however, I don’t think that many of us initially know where we sit on the transgender spectrum.

I am in my late 40’s and have been crossdressing probably since I was four years old. Because of the guilt and shame involved, like most of us, I suppressed the desires whenever possible. My thoughts were usually limited to when was the next time I would get to dress up, and why did I do that.

I am married and have two adult children, and if I had been asked two months ago, I would have been one who would have said that it was just the clothes. But for me, it isn’t just the clothes. My wife and I have been seeing a counselor for over a year and I have been trying to come to terms with something I perceived as a “terrible thing.” My wife has been very accepting to a point, but recently decided that she had gone as far as she was comfortable, and anything pushing our boundaries may affect our marriage. This forced me to reflect on my life and what I discovered was that I have always wanted to be a girl. I had the dreams, prayed I would wake up I girl, didn’t have much in common with other boys, and had a lot of internal gender identification issues that I chose to ignore.

Part of me coming to this realization was from reading a lot of posts from TS girls, including many from you. Due to previous misconceptions, I believed that people who were TS hated their genitalia, and would rather die that remain in the “wrong body.” After reading many posts, I found that many TS had stories very similar to my own. I agree that there are some who have always known that they are TS, and others who will never have the desire to be more than a CD, but there are many of us who don’t know, and didn’t realize that we didn’t know. Without contact to those who are TS, I probably wouldn’t have been able to reach this conclusion. Nothing may change in my life, but exposure to others stories has helped me to better understand myself.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Bree,

I identify with Nikki Araguz.
I'm Intersexed but I also identify as Transsexual and have received some flak over it by other Intersexed people.

I am in the camp that Transsexuals and Intersexed people are very different than anyone under the Transgender umbrella.

This is why Transsexual and Intersexed people are not part of the Transgender umbrella.
Cross dresser's, gender queer's, part timer's and everyone else that are not Transsexual or Intersexed fall squarely within the context of the Transgender umbrella.

To me and others the term " Transgender " is offensive like the term Hermaphrodite is offensive to Intersexed people.


Julia

[Nigella]

Lets face it Bree, in the context of this forum, the word transgender covers the majority of members who wish to identify that way, nothing we say will sway an opinion on whether this label fits or not.

In the context of your group, it is up to them to identify who they consider to be be transgender. As a support group, I would hope that they would accept any person who identifies themselves as transgender. For them to turn away a crossdress who identifies themselves as transgender is IMHO a little bit of elitism, somthing out community can do without.