You are so right in this. As I said I draw the line when sex and gender are conflated and my transition is characterized as a lifestyle choice. Do I support gender variant persons? Absolutely, and not just in words ........Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
"Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)
Just a question I do not have an answer to.
How would you classify an XY genotype (aka male) with complete androgen insensitivity?
They are not intersex; no female organs like ovaries or uterus and a "vagina" that is usually a short blind pouch. They have internal testes and produce testosterone that is converted to estrogen via aromatase.
The external appearance is "female" and they are usually raised as such until they fail to enter puberty. They develop breasts and have a feminine body shape but no pubic hair. There are other characteristics too but you can look them up if you care. It is widely suspected that some of the "female supermodels" are really in this group.
Lines and classification is certainly not a simple linear scale. More like a multidimensional matrix...
We should be inclusive, not divisive,
Sandra1746
Ok Bree, the following is where I draw my lines. Just to be clear, I have never agreed with labels for the very reason they cannot satisfy everyone or every situation. I am now putting up my shields, my defences are ready so anyone can now fire away at me at will. I suspect I will need all the defences I can get on this one. Just so you all know, regardless of how you feel about the following, I respect your opinions, feeling and understand completely if you do not agree. Remember, this is my current opinion and that could change with some reasonable and rational replies/opinions.
THERE ARE TWO COMMUNITIES OF GENDER OF CONCERN WITHIN: 1. Transgender
2. Transexual
1. The community of Transgenders represents everyone that DOES NOT identify as Cisgender, Transexual or Intersexed, Pre-op, or Post-op individuals.
a. If you express yourself in private or public activities that are considered opposite to your birth gender, you belong here.
b. If you wear clothing normally associated with your opposite birth gender solely for sexual gratification(fetish purposes), or for professional occupations
( Drag Queens ) you DO NOT belong here.
c. If you hide clothing or withhold information from people you are acquainted with, you belong here( notwithstanding 'b' above).
2. The community of Transexuals represents anyone that identifies as being of the opposite gender to which they were born. This includes anyone that identifies as pre-op, possibly some non-op, the key being, born the wrong gender. It includes anyone living or needing to live full time as the opposite birth gender but have not transitioned. It includes anyone that NEEDS to change their gender marker, driver licence, etc. I will also include, for lack of better understanding but at the risk of being correct, anyone that considers themsleves intersexed. It may well be the concensus among those identifying as intersexed they fall within a complete and separate community. I suspect however, their specific needs align closely to anyone identifying as TS. Jump right in and correct me if I am wrong here and I thank you for that
If you are post-op and living fulltime as the opposite gender to which you were born, you are not considered TG nor TS. You are considered belonging to the communities of either male or female.
So there you have my take on it. Two communities and only two. For very different reasons. In some cases the needs of both communities are identical and in other cases they are not. BOTH communities do however, have a primary reason to support the needs of each other in an positive manner. Many individuals who currently consider themselves as transgender may at a future date identify withh transexual. Therefore it is of the utmost importance both communities recognize and accept the umbilical bond we share with each other. Both communities for example, share the need for rights against violence, employment protection rights, etc. whereas the needs from a health prospective, etc. are quite different.
So after all the ramblings here, what is it all really about? It's about trying to come to some sort of agreement/understanding/recognition that will ultimately allow us all to be better understood and accepted by ourselves, and more importantly, by society, political leaders, and the medical world so that the needs of both communities can be identified and addressed properly. The old saying, "KISS" ( keep it simple stupid) will allow for quicker, clearer, communication.
"
My lines are drawn. "Scotty, full speed ahead.", "Shields up Mr. Sulu!", " Lt. Uhura, see if you can communicate with that ship!!" Let's all be ready!
Last edited by jillleanne; 06-10-2012 at 09:08 AM.
Why Max? Explain to me how being out to your employer as a cross dresser has anything to do with a transitioning or tranistioned TS or IS person.
I fully agree with Kaitlyn when she said that a cross dresser that under dresses , and gets fired for underdressing sounds like a fool to her.
This person sounds like a fool to me as well.
Was this person showing what he had on underneath his clothing to his co workers? It sounds like the company had every right to fire him.
Max, what are you talking about when you said that potential effects on employment prospects was a major consideration for many cross dressers for being out?
Why would cross dressers even be concerned about employment issues concerning the act of cross dressing?
As long as there is duality concerning gender presentation concerning a person, that person has the luxury of switching back to their male personae in order to facilitate legal cooperation concerning employment, housing and medical care.
Transitioned TS and IS people do not have this luxury. It is a 24-7 365 day a year situation.
Your post is strange in it's content and illogical in it's premise.
Julia
This bothers me. I don't ask to see other women's vaginas as proof they are women, do you? Mind you, there are enough visible male and female secondary sexual characteristics to make the identification of someone as male or female more difficult for tricky trans-related cases.
Personally, I am more of a lumper than a splitter. I would classify everyone on this site as all part of the trans- community, including cisgendered members who are here as friends, children, parents, partners and prospects (looking for a CD/TG/TS partner). I kind of even find it absurd that there is a thread on a forum called crossdressers.com debating the validity of including people who cross dress in with a wider community.
Underdressed in the workplace? I can understand that. For many people, that little expression of inner selves is symbolic of their own identity (girly on the inside) or can help relieve the compulsion to dress as one gets through their day. I firmly believe in the power of sexy underwear as a pick-me-up and secret weapon in increasing confidence for ciswomen, and definitely for anyone part of the transgendered community in any way as well. I can also understand bending over and having one's belt shift, or someone clapping a coworker on the shoulder and feeling a strap there... Lots of ways that can be exposed accidentally. And if THIS board can dismiss underdressing as not being truly transgender enough, as being fetishistic, then what is an employer supposed to think?
Actually, there are many situations classified as intersex, and androgen insensitivity (complete or partial) is among them.
Simply having XY genes does not make a person male. Those who are androgen insensitive do not develop a fully functioning reproductive system. Thus they are "less than" male (I apologize for the very poor phrasing). Some will consider themselves between male and female (i.e. intersex). Others will not insert "female" (the binary complement to "male") in their view, but consider themselves asexual.
I believe the person should have the right to determine their own identity. I too fear we try to classify too much.
Like this? http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2853849
(ignore the tongue-in-cheek comment at the bottom of my post)
Harry Benjamin defined 6 levels of trans. There are overlaps and points in between the levels, not one level will describe anyone to a "T" (pun intended). Also, sexual preference may vary considerably from Benjamin's theory, although I believe he just proposed a sexual preference range as a guideline perhaps.
EDIT - FYI:
Benjamin Scale: http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Origi...ginalChart.jpg
Kinsey Scale: http://skew.dailyskew.com/uploaded_i...INS-774322.GIF
Last edited by ReineD; 06-10-2012 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Added the scales.
Reine
Here's my 2 cents. My personal opinion, which doesn't really account for much, is that TG, TS, CD are all under the same umbrella. Our current society is still kinda stuck in the binary gender mindset for the most part. It is the society accepted thing that a male has male parts, thinks like males (even though there is a wide spectrum of what that means) and doesn't wish to be female. And, females have female parts, thinks like females (once again a wide spectrum does exist) and doesn't wish to be a male. So, ANYONE in society that doesn't conform to that basic dogma is a gender varient of some kind and that is what defines "the umbrella"
However, what I REALLY wanted to suggest isn't about my opinion. I think that the third tradition of AA has THE relavent principle here. The tradition is that the only requirement for membership in AA is the desire to stop drinking. There is no EXTERNAL requirement, a person is the deciding factor if they say they belong and have a desire, then they are a member of AA. In AA's history are many rich tales of early groups trying all sorts of membership requirements and rules to help the group to survive and to help the group grow, etc. In practice these ALL failed and with the clearing of the dust from the calamity the wisdom of the third tradition was conclusively shown. This tradition was officially adopted by the fellowship of AA in 1955 when membership was around 1/2 a million worldwide. Today AA has several million members, is in almost every country and continues to grow and reach alcoholics who need help. The liberal ideal of needing any requirement to elong other than wanting to has, in reality, shown to be the best solution.
The only other thing I wanted to point out is that it is possibly a fear based reason behind trying to exclude TS from TG from CD. I will admit that TS, TG and CD folks have different issues to contend with concerning gender conflict with our accepted society binary gender framework.
[SIZE="3"]Terri[/SIZE]
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[SIZE="2"]"What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, The master calls a butterfly!"[/SIZE]
The true measure of a person is in the questions they ask, not the answers they give.
@babeba: You're different because you're intellegent and compassionate. Most people are not.
(When I say "you", I mean metaphoricly you, not specifically "you") Not consciously, but your subconscious mind does. The first place a mans eyes go to on a woman is her breasts and crotch. I'm not making this up; it's human nature. It's happened to me. The same phenomina happens with a woman. They look at a man's package, and butt. They also look at other things, but that's the two main places that they admit to looking at. If a guy doesn't match some unknown criteria, they won't even talk to him or acknowledge him.
Imagine what happens if a "woman" has a bit of a bulge down there.A "red flag" goes up in the looker's mind. You get the same reaction if there's a mismatch between the face and the body.
All of these things can create embarassing situations for us, and can also create a dangerous situation.
Whether we like it or not, we are judged by our genetalia in this society.
Teen boys judge each other in the locker room. Any place where even an outline of your private parts shows causes you to be judged. Beaches, pools, the list goes on. Even women get affronted with it. Cameltoe hunts are rampant on the web, complete with pics and smart remarks.
I don't like it. Sometimes, I'd like to ask people "what the **** are you looking at?", but I know that they're trying to figure out if I'm a boy or a girl. People have to compartmentalize, and like to simplify things.
The brutal truth is that society has three labels for us; Guy, Girl, and somewhere in between. Most are not smart enough to figure out the truth. Many of them don't even care. We're just something for them to make fun of or talk about, or put on some TV show.
And how are they (society at large) supposed to figure it out if we can't even decide on what we are? We don't even have a unified front. If three criminals get picked up by the cops, they'll usually be released if they have the same story.
We don't have the same story.
As far as "underdressing" goes, how many people actually do it for the added thrill of possibly getting caught? And at the workplace? That's just asking for trouble.
If you do that in front of women, chances are, you're going to get caught. Women have a sharper eye than men do. especially where fashion and clothing are concerned. They don't even have to touch you to see the outline of a bra strap or the band of a pair of panties sticking out above your waistline.
Then what? Are you going to cry foul because you were caught? If you're fired, are you going to sue your employer? And what happens if your fellow employees mess with you? Are you going to cry to your supervisor?
If I was an employer, I wouldn't want to hire you. Why would I want to bring that kind of drama to my workplace?
And where does that leave the full-time transsexual that needs a job, so that s/he can pay for medical care and surgery?
And therein lies the problem. We have crossdressers making the lives of Transsexuals more difficult. Crossdressers are all over Mainstream Media. Rupals drag race, Jerry Springer, etc.
People see them and don't take GID or transsexuals serious.
And who suffers because of that? TSes do.
Deep down inside of me, there's a little girl screaming to get out.
I can usually keep the bitch quiet with chocolate.
*some crossdressers*. I just wanted to clarify this. There are many CDers like my SO (although she identifies as dualgender) who look no different than TSs. The difference might be a general softening of the skin as the result of HRT, but then HRT does not soften everyone's appearance equally especially if they are late onset TSs. Also, not every TS has had FFS. My SO belongs to a TG support group and the vast majority of people present themselves very well. I've no idea who has had SRS, who is living full time, vs. who dresses only on a regular basis.
As to the more, shall we say, flamboyant CDers out there, I think that forums like this one help and also it is a process for some people. In the beginning they might go for the platinum wigs and mini skirts, but eventually they do learn the difference between positive vs. negative notice out in the mainstream. And the CDers for whom this is a kinky thing and they have no plans to get rid of the platinum wig and 5 inch heels I gather mostly limit their excursions (if they go out) to TG friendly places such as nightclubs.
I don't think I've ever seen a drag-queen looking CDer while out and about.
As to the media, it is true that drag-queen looking CDers are sensationalized, but there are also many stories of transsexuals in the news who have successfully transitioned and are accepted, or who are negatively treated due to societal bias.
Last edited by ReineD; 06-10-2012 at 01:56 PM.
Reine
Whereas I find your apology sincere there is nothing to apologize for Jill.
No offense was taken.
Julia
I think that you are putting words into Sally's mouth. Sally stated her opinion that many TS's will go stealth after going full time.
She also pointed out that many cross dressers, many of whom have GID but will not or can not transition, have contributed to making the world a better place for us.
She did not say or imply that the two were subjects were related.
I knew this was going to degenerate into "Who has it worse" scenario! Trying to separate from the TG umbrella because you think things will work better for you is at least more valid than just saying that your have nothing in common with us. But let's make this clear, we all have pain and problems. Trying to blame others for your problems and thinking you have it worse then them doesn't make it so and doesn't make for constructive discussions.
Tunnel vision is handy when your so sure of your opinion. As you've stated you never put female clothing on before transitioning then you apparently know nothing about CDing. According to your own rules you probably shouldn't be discussing something you know nothing about. My best friend doesn't qualify as transexual by your standards but lives much her life as a woman. She has lost 2 jobs because she is OUT in the community and has been unemployed for over 3 years. Just the knowledge that you are TG is enough for employers to not want you around anymore. And if you've ever testified in behalf of Trans Legislation then you know that there are many that come testify that are not even trans. They don't dress in very feminine or very masculine manners and have employment issues because of that. Employers want them to "man up" or wear a dress and makeup to help the company image. People don't need to see your underwear or your private parts to discriminate against you in the workplace.
1. I didn't say they didn't deserve some protection, but we are talking gender here, not sex. The fetish dressers I have met have no crossgender identification. They dress for the thrill of the clothes and the sexual release.
2. I don't understand this statement at all. If you go with the "woman in a man's body" that is the epitome of crossgender identification. You are born male and completely identify yourself as a woman.
3. Most everyone's statements here are blanket statements. I think you'd be hard pressed to deny that "many" transsexuals go stealth or low profile. Low profile people do not go on TV or they would not quality as being low profile. I didn't say that TS people didn't appear in public and make statements on TV, just that many of the TS population did not take part in that kind of support because they were trying to stay out of the lime light.
If you all want to start another thread to discuss how TS and TG differ fine. But this discussion was supposed to be about whether to allow a CD presence in a Transsexual support group.
Sally
I believe that how we express our selves in dress and how we feel inside are key to how we identify. I believe your question is not so simple. I am inclined to say that once you feel the need to dress you have clearly crossed a barrier where your gender identity comes into question. i remember at one time i felt i was just a crossdresser but after deep soul searching and a key awareness of my gender dysphoria i realized my crossdressing was much more a need for my transgender feelings. I feel we should be open to the crossdresser, the tg, the ts and the ones closest to them and not try to impose barriers. we should embrace all and i feel we have to clearly include them all as part of the tg community.
we need to accept all as they are.
emmi
Unfortunately, this is how the average person sees it. We have knowledge and understanding because we live it. They don't. They only see the negative effects at the workplace, or the drama on Television and equate that to -all- of us.
As far as seperating from the "umbrella", I can't. Society has already lumped me into its' own take on what we are. for better or for worse. And like it or not, I have to fight for your rights as well as my own, because in the eyes of society, We're the same.
And whose fault is that? Is it the fault of the TS or the fault of the CD? Somebody is to blame here. Is it both of us for publicising it for the sake of being accepted? And am I wrong for wanting to distance my self from it, just so I can live some semblance of a peaceful life?
We can discuss this till we're blue in the face. The truth is, unless society at large starts accepting us (or they're forced to accept us) nothing will change.
We are abnormal in the eyes of society. I'm sorry if that's offensive to you, but it's how they see us. I see it and feel it every day. I hear people talk about it on the streets. And they don't have nice things to say, that's for sure.
Oh, and I -do- have it worse than most of you. I don't have a penis, nor do I have a vagina. I've been forced to straddle the line between genders for most of my life. On top of that, I suffer from GID.
So, where does that put me in grand scheme of things?
Deep down inside of me, there's a little girl screaming to get out.
I can usually keep the bitch quiet with chocolate.
It can't be said enough. It's not easy being intersex, or inter-gender (I'm putting it this way to make the comparison), or both, and/or having gender dysphoria.
It really serves no good to get into discussions about who has it worse or who belongs in what grouping. The best we can do is to define a half dozen or more parameters (see the links in post #82) and allow people to determine where they fit (give or take minor variances). It would help if we named each category separately and if everyone agreed with the terms used. Also, Harry Benjamin's scale did not consider intersex and doing this would add another dimension.
Last edited by ReineD; 06-10-2012 at 03:36 PM.
Reine
@ReineD: I agree. And it wasn't meant that way. My statements were not "woe is me" statements. They were meant to reflect how society in general sees us (from My perspective, i.e. what I see and hear on the streets.). And they do not see us in a good light. With that said, can you blame anybody who wants to distance themselves from this?
Last edited by MC-lite; 06-10-2012 at 03:47 PM. Reason: My MAC keyboard has a mind of its own
Deep down inside of me, there's a little girl screaming to get out.
I can usually keep the bitch quiet with chocolate.
I use CD because I'd rather that term to Transvestite. Maybe I'm ignorant to it's true meaning, but to me it's riddled with negative connotation.
As a forum which deals with supporting a broad spectrum of, can I say transgender folk?, it would be nice to have some form of universal term. While I don't want to come across as saying people should be pigeon holed, I do think if we are going to progress in enlightening those in the mainstream of society, there has to be some fundamental identification to start from which people who are not in the loop can easily grasp and hopefully understand.
Not that long ago being gay was an issue.
I think the same will be for the transgender community too.
This is where some of you may see me as a crack pot...but that's ok
We're moving into a different time and head space and the industrial age which once governed our actions and dictated societies thoughts, is now coming to an end. One only has to look around to see people are not happy with the current status quo in which we’re told to live. People are starting to question the rules. And this doubting of what's been laid down and acted upon for many, many centuries is now coming under scrutinisation; people are not happy complying just because their told to, they want answers to their questions.
With regard to transgender folk, one only has to look at the attitudes of the young generation, who, most seem to hold at least an understanding of and in a lot of instances acceptance that not everyone is either A or B.
What if the Mayan calendar prediction is not the end of the world as some believe but the end of the industrial period of the world. And the proceeding centuries will evolve into people valuing not what someone does to make money but what they do as individual to contribute to the betterment of society...
Ok, that was a bit of side track. My point is, I think we're entering a time when society is willing to start listening. But I think we could do ourselves a lot of favours by making it easy to understand to the person in the street.
My 2 cents. Now I'm out here before you reach for the net
~ it's not how the world sees you but how you see yourself that counts ~
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For the record, I just want to point out, Bree, that you never did tell us what color panties you are wearing.
Rebecca, please don't get me wrong. This was not a criticism.
I was rather saying there are many people who feel, gender-wise, just like you but who choose different words to identify themselves, and this is what makes having these discussions so difficult. Or, there are people who are not TS, and there are TSs, who both identify as TG.
It is best to use a scale such as Harry Benjamin's (perhaps updated), and use different words that everyone agrees with, to name each level where people might be.
The difficulty would be in getting people to agree on the terms more than defining whether the various categories of trans are accurate or not.
Reine
Sorry if your felt I may have. I didn't take anything you said as criticismRebecca, please don't get me wrong. This was not a criticism.
I don't know you that well, but I think I know you well enough, to know you wouldn't do that. (try saying that 3x fast).
~ it's not how the world sees you but how you see yourself that counts ~
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If you equate sex with gender it is indeed. I was born female but in a male body. I corrected my body to be congruent with my gender. How is that cross-gender identification?
"Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)
I testified in Harrisburg, PA on behalf of transitioned TS and IS people that were being discriminated against because their drivers license stated one gender when their presentation full time was the opposite of what their drivers license indicated.
Sally, please explain to me how a cross dresser or any one else who dresses part time and presents a duality in gender presentation benefits from a binary driver's license change to either male or female?
My testimony and work in Harrisburg had absolutely nothing to do with gender variant people. It had everything to do with TS and IS people that changed binary genders from one to the other and stayed there.
Outing yourself either by mistake or purposely as anything other than a transitioning or transitioned person is both dangerous and fool hearty.
If your friend has purposely outed herself as anything other than full time then I'm sorry but she is experiencing exactly what she should be experiencing in a society that has yet to catch up with progress.
Outing ones self isn't a game, it isn't pink fog and it isn't a giant closet, it's reality and it has pitfalls and possible major consequences for even the most stealthy TS or IS person let alone a part timer.
If someone is pushing gender boundaries at work without officially declaring transition to that company then that company has every right to discipline up to and including firing a person for such.
If that person is presenting as male and is wearing eyeliner or under dressing and someone notices this it most likely would be against dress code.
A person that does not subscribe to a gender binary within the context and framework of a company's HR policy then that person deserves to be reprimanded.
Sally, explain to me how as someone presenting as male would dress in an androgynous fashion without wearing clothing of the opposite sex.
Genetic women wear mens pants and shirts and have no issues doing such.
If a genetic woman is transitioning then " he" needs to declare that to " his " companies HR dept.
The same with a transitioning MTF.
If a man presenting in anything other than male attire for work is reprimanded for such then that person deserves such for breaking company policy.
This is not a gender fluid society and I for one am happy about that fact.
Julia
Case in point: I have a pre-op TS friend in Florida who was fired as a consequence of notifying her boss that she( he at the time) intended to come to work as of such and such a date as female but would from that day forward, be female 24/7. At the time prior to the announcement, she presented as male at work. It was said to her the others employees could not handle this announcement and that in the bosses opinion, complications within the work enviroment would inevitably come to light, complications that might cause hatred and bigotry to rear their ugly faces against her. For the good of the business, she was to leave. Although the outcome was not positive, nontheless, she advised the employer ahead of time hoping for positive results.
Eventually, she applied at a local Walmart as a female, transitioned, and sucessfully got the position of customer service manager. Life is getter better for her every day.
Last edited by Sharon; 06-12-2012 at 10:28 AM. Reason: repaired quote
Absolutely worth a re-read!
Agreement = 100%
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