Where do you draw the line?

**jillleanne** · 06-09-2012, 07:06 AM

I think this question has been hashed over many times in the past and will continue to be brought back to hash over some more in the future. I guess we are going to flog it some more now, which I suppose, is just human. Why people need to, no demand to be able to label us neatly in some category to do what, protect the category they accept as exclusively theirs? All for whatever reason, mistifies me but nonetheless exists. No disrespect to you Bree so don't take my post the wrong way as it's not directed at you, but sooner or later, we all need to forget about the petty stuff like definitions/labels, and concentrate on the big picture which is getting governments and society to learn to accept all people from all walks of life, regardless of any differences. Hard to do or too idealistic you say? I don't see the problem with the logic. In the long run, who really cares? I don't. Call me whatever you feel makes you happy, it matters not to me. I do not use, nor have a need for labels to justify my existence. Labels are for someone else to use to appease themselves in justifying their opinion of something/someone. So, to answer your question, in my opinion, I was born transgender, I am transgender, and I will die transgender. Regardless of whether I am labelled as a crossdresser or preop the day I die, I will still be transgender. I would question however, whether anyone post op would have a need to be labelled transgendered however, as they do not cross gender lines anymore. I express externally, internal mental and physical traits of both male and female, not only by dressing as and interacting with the public as female sometimes or by doing all the 'guy' things I do, but by certain mental idealologies and actions, i.e., I do not like violence, I do not like to participate in contact sports, I pay particular attention on how people dress, act, I notice colors, patterns, hair styles, etc., the list goes on for both my genders. In many of my posts, in an attempt to avoid labels, I often will use the term 'gender enhanced', not to be used as a label, but a description of how I feel who I am, which is, gender fluid, or gender variant, or specifically, a male with internal female traits, a real need to express my feminine feelings, emotions, desires. I do not dress en femme for fun per say. The expression is born from an internal need, not desire.
I really doubt there is anyone out there that crossdresses, that does not have any internal struggles with their identities, in fact I would bet money on it, and I am not a betting person. Anyone that does not have any internal struggles with expressing themselves with the opposite gender are fetishists, not gender enhanced. Why the hiding, secrets, stashes of clothing? Why do they not head to the hardware store in panties and bra and heels for all to see? Because they struggle with the issue. Are they transgender? Of course they are. They cross the lines society has made in establishing a definition of male and female and they can do so at any time they feel the need. Fetishists? Well they are just that and they are well aware of it and struggle not.
Somewhere in the above, I think I gave you my opinion on your question. Why, why, why, do people have such a need for labels?

**Rachel Smith** · 06-09-2012, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Traci Elizabeth

Many "moons" ago, when I romped and played of youth, I lumped CD/DQ/TG/TS under ONE large umbrella.

But today, I am sure I will catch flack over this forthcoming statement. Nevertheless, it is "MY" absolute opinion that CD's or anyone else for that matter who wants to keep their penises for whatever reason are NOT transsexual. AND Transsexuals who want to keep that label are NOT WOMEN!

Now Remember Bree said we want to be "CIVIL." So unload your shotguns and take this olive branch that I offer you!

I have to disagree with you Traci. I feel I am as transsexual/transgender as anyone. Just because I do not now nor will I ever have enough money to get surgery makes me no less so. I realized my dilemma to late in life and was far to loose with my money when I was young. I dress and identify as a woman everywhere except at work which I hope to change in the near future. It's just that I have recently started at both places I work and don't feel I have the job security to be female there. I have said it many times before here but will say it again. I have more confidence, pride and feel absolutely my true self as a woman and having a penis changes non of that.

Love to all
Rachel

**juno** · 06-09-2012, 07:39 AM

As I alwayss say, the gender/sex descriptive terms are necessarily fuzzy, because gender and sex are a continuum. The adjective "tall" is useful, but people don't argue about the exact height cut-off, and it is context-dependent. We need to treat gender terminology the same way. Use them as adjectives, not labels. That is why "crossdresser", an activity, is preferred to "transvestite", a label.

Crossdressing is done for all sorts of reasons. Some of them are definitely transgender and some are definitely not. Most are probably in the middle somewhere, sort of moderately transgender. Many "fetish" crossdressers really only view it as a fetish because they started young when hormones were high, and sex permeated all parts of life. Later on, they realize that it is far more than a fetish. Remember, men have a hard time getting in touch with their feelings. Male-to-female crossdressers often claim they don't know why they do it, and it is therefore impossible for anyone else to know why they do it.

My opinion is that we should just give all crossdressers the same respect and allow them to be included as transgender, if they want to be considered transgender.

The big problem is that fetishist crossdressing is used as a political tool to prevent transgender rights laws from passing. That creates a lot of animosity with transsexuals who are just trying to live their life, feeling that a few people going out just for fun are part of the problem for their daily struggles. Don't hate the crossdressers, hate the politicians. Actually, don't hate anyone; hate is the enemy.

**MC-lite** · 06-09-2012, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Marleena

Okay I'll try this. First of all put me down as a "middle pather" I'm dealing with GID. The old joke comes to mind how long from Cd to TS (2 years). Many CD's do end up discovering they are actually TS. So if they are left out of the TG umbrella it is a dis-service to them.

Also keep in mind that the TS group is very small and there are divisions within the ranks itself regarding who is a true TS relating to SRS or not. It is fractured.

I've mentioned many times here that the general public does not know the difference between a TS girl, a CDer, or a drag queen. To them it's just a man in a dress. So the girls out there in public that are not TS are opening doors for everybody including the TS girls. They are helping the cause and should be protected in the umbrella group.

There is strength in numbers.

Feel free to to discredit my thoughts, they are my own opinion.

@Marleena: I agree with your statements here. And it's interesting that since this is a crossdressers forum, we are the ones being accepted here and allowed to exist among the ranks.

The general public knows very little about us (meaning TS). Some sage people take the time to understand, but, for the most part, we're lumped in with the Rupal's drag race crowd. Many times, I've heard the statement "Oh, You're trans? I have lots of gay friends." I have a few too. But I'm not gay. I'm a straight female. or "We should hang out at this club I know...It's a really cool drag club!" I have to tell them that I'm not into crossdressing or drag. I don't even like drag. To me,it holds the same appeal as women dressing up in industrial uniforms.

When that happens, and it almost -always- happens when I meet someone for the first time, I take it as an opportunity to try to educate them and explain what's going on in our community. Usually, they mean well, and have no other way of bonding with me. I respect their effort to bond, and I try to befriend them and help them to understand.

IMHO the "cause" here is being accepted for who and what we are. Yeah, we have to work together on this, but make no mistakes about it, we -are- different.

:Miki.

**juno** · 06-09-2012, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Traci Elizabeth

Many "moons" ago, when I romped and played of youth, I lumped CD/DQ/TG/TS under ONE large umbrella.

But today, I am sure I will catch flack over this forthcoming statement. Nevertheless, it is "MY" absolute opinion that CD's or anyone else for that matter who wants to keep their penises for whatever reason are NOT transsexual. AND Transsexuals who want to keep that label are NOT WOMEN!

Now Remember Bree said we want to be "CIVIL." So unload your shotguns and take this olive branch that I offer you!

I am not going to disagree with you. I am just going to outright say that you are wrong. Are flat-chested women still women if they don't get breast implants?

My personal opinion is that genetalia are just a minor part of your gender. I am much more concerned about every other aspect of my appearance. I would like to have a vagina, but there is no way to get a real one, just something similar. I just don't care that much about genetalia, and would rather avoid unnecessary surgeries. I am early in transition, so I may change my mind once my other features have improved. However, I know that current statistics are that only 1 in 6 transsexuals get SRS, so my current opinion is in the majority.

**MC-lite** · 06-09-2012, 08:13 AM

@Juno: Some food for thought. Flat chested and well endowed women have one thing in common: They -all- have vaginas.
If you can't afford SRS, that's a different story. But without a vagina,IMHO, you're -not- a woman.

And that's how society feels.

No offense to anybody.

**Marleena** · 06-09-2012, 08:26 AM

Don't shoot the messenger! Bree in this case.

Some of the TS groups are elitists meaning that any MTF that does not identify as a TS woman is a crossdresser in their eyes. These groups are pushing for removing CD's from under the TG umbrella. Each TS group might have their own definition of Cder's however. This is the missing piece of the puzzle for the TS group Bree is referring to in the OP.

As for Julia and intersexed TS women being shunned is another example of discrimination as far as I'm concerned.

**MC-lite** · 06-09-2012, 08:42 AM

@Marleena: If you are refering to my post, I'm certainly not "shooting the messenger". I realize that in this community, we all have different needs. I've spent my life genderless. I don't have a penis. I don't have a vagina either.

For almost 40 years, I've been told that I'm not a man because I don't have a penis, and I'm not a woman because I don't have a vagina. Where does that leave me? Am I even human by societal standards?

This society tells us that we must occupy one gender slot or the other. It's demanded from us, and up to now, has no room for something "in-between".

**Cheryl T** · 06-09-2012, 08:51 AM

I think my question in response to Bree's would be "Why do we have to draw a line?".
Seems to me that by "drawing a line" we are segregating a portion of the community and being as prejudicial as the "normal" world (please excuse the use of that word) is when they draw their line and separate us from them. That separation is what causes all the fear and concern that we feel when we are in the mainstream world.

Do we also have to distinguish each other or can't we all work together for the common good?

P.S. - I would consider myself Transgendered...

**Marleena** · 06-09-2012, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Michaela Joy

@Marleena: If you are refering to my post, I'm certainly not "shooting the messenger". I realize that in this community, we all have different needs. I've spent my life genderless. I don't have a penis. I don't have a vagina either.

For almost 40 years, I've been told that I'm not a man because I don't have a penis, and I'm not a woman because I don't have a vagina. Where does that leave me? Am I even human by societal standards?

This society tells us that we must occupy one gender slot or the other. It's demanded from us, and up to now, has no room for something "in-between".

Um no.. I totally agree with your post Michaela. I would have quoted you.

It was a response as to what might constitute being a CDer pertaining to different TS groups. Many of us are questioning the OP because we don't know what their (TS group) definition of a Cder is.

**Michelle.M** · 06-09-2012, 09:18 AM

What an interesting thread! I'm loving the responses being given here.

I think the need for this discussion in the first place stems from the discrimination Nikki Araguz has experienced, and her experience is all too typical.

We complain about discrimination from society, but sometimes the discrimination we face from our own community can be just as bad. Maybe even worse. Too many people who fall under the TG umbrella tend to adopt the attitude of "trans-er than thou", and we stratify our own community. I've seen post-op look down on pre-op, non-op discounted entirely. CDs regarded as hobbyists without any time being taken to listen to that person express doubt as to whether cross dressing for them is a way station on the road to transition. Or not. And nobody seems interested in trying to understand those who are intersexed at all.

I mean, it just does not stop! As a community we can be brutal to each other. Nikki's story is evidence of that. No wonder there are no accurate numbers of just how many people identify as TG - who'd want to self-identify in such a hostile climate?

People have commented that they are grateful for this forum as a safe space, and it is. And my being here has taught me the value of being extremely reluctant to draw the line.

So, the answer to the original question - "where do you draw the line?" is - I don't, if at all possible.

**MC-lite** · 06-09-2012, 09:22 AM

@Marleena: Sorry.

**Marleena** · 06-09-2012, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Michaela Joy

@Marleena: Sorry.

It's all good. No worries.

**Launa** · 06-09-2012, 09:35 AM

When I came to this site around a year ago I thought we were all just a big happy family, I always knew there was a difference between TS and a CD but did not know the "true differences" between all of us such as transvestite, crossdresser, transgendered, gender dysphoria issues, a gay CDer, drag queen etc and I'm still learning as I go along like the difference between TS and intersexed. Now I see that there are sometimes different gangs amonst us. I would think we all fall under the Transgender umbrella to some degree. I'm still trying to figure out who the "F" I am.
I'm sexually attracted to women, I like my male penis, I like to do all things women get to do such as having no body hair, nice nails, shaped eyebrows and I would have long hair if I wasn't bald. If I could wear womens clothes everyday I probably would except for doing construction chores etc. Would I transition? At this point in my life, not a chance. If I could hit a magic switch and be born female all over again then I would hit that switch so fast
and start it all over. So where do I fall under the umbrella? Transgender I guess.
I think that even Cd's who say they are in it for only a "fetish" have at least some internal struggles with their identity. They might not be admitting it or don't have the stronger urges that some of us have.

**Inna** · 06-09-2012, 10:00 AM

I am sorry I did not read any postings and so it is less of a discussion then just an opinion, but nevertheless, I'll have a go

Transgender or in fact any label we associate with a group will lead to confusion and stereotype, however it is a necessary evil in regards to standards and science to be a viable source for research, social awareness and political stance.

Said that, we are trying to define non constant medium, because what we see, is not exactly what it truly is, at least not always!!!!!!

A CROSSDRESSER may wear a skirt and nothing else because he likes the feeling of the air drafting against his privates and love the freedom and hippie nature of the experience. Is he a transgender individual, I don't think so. But is he a trans human, YES, for anyone strong enough to go against rigid conformity of societal box, he certainly has Big Balls, (do you get it? ha, ha)

However, another will wear the same exact skirt to promote the feminine image, making such connotation absolutely TRANSGENDER.

So in a nut shell, it is simply impossible to correctly and adequately decipher the person unless he or she are known to us in a personal aspect of being.

But rest assured that any one, and I mean ANYONE b eing a male and wearing women's garments will be seen by societies rigid eye as a trans-whatever, but trans never the less, and what is even more disturbing is that the more masculine their features are the more FREAK LABEL they being assessed and assigned.

PS: Personally, believing the above statement to be true, I haven't come across any individual who would dress in opposite sex clothing and yet remain absolutely masculine and rigid. And throughout my transition I have come across, slew of crossdressers, fetishistic and non, transsexuals who are confused, sex-driven, gender honest and just about any depth of trans understanding.

**Badtranny** · 06-09-2012, 10:06 AM

For the sake of this thread I think the demarcation is obvious.

Everybody who has come out and lives their lives openly (however that may be) is TG and those that are on HRT and living as women full time are TS.

Overly simplified sure, but a TS can't be closeted by definition and if a person admits to being a CD or goes out and socializes as a CD then they are clearly TG.

If you're closeted, you have no political influence anyway. You literally do not exist in the public eye, so arguing about what you should be called is kind of silly. I believe the phrase "stand up and be counted" applies in this case. Let's step away from how we feel for a bit and start talking about how we LIVE. What does your life look like? What label should you wear (proudly) according to how you live your life? (in regard to gender issues only please)

**PretzelGirl** · 06-09-2012, 10:19 AM

I look at it a different way. Why do we need to draw a line? We have massive amount of threads around here about labels and where each person falls and that is great as a mental exercise. But look at what you are exactly asking. If a person that crossdresses and feels 100% male and 0% female isn't Transgender and one that feels 95% male and 5% female is Transgender, what have we accomplished with this definition? Just Transgender by itself brings up the need for a lot of education in our world so if we start drawing finite lines, it becomes an undertaking that probably can't be achieved.

I am all for keeping things simple. If we need to get down to a defined level of detail, maybe that should only come up for the therapists that need to decide which way to treat someone. The rest just serves as a means for people to say "I am this and you are that" and that is where a lot of discussions go down hill here. For real world application, it seems to be something that would be too confusing for the general public. Now if it is just for the mental exercise....

**Nigella** · 06-09-2012, 11:21 AM

I guess anyone who identifies themselves, in whatever shape, name or any other description, as the opposite gender to their birth gender must be by definition transgendered. This includes those on the forum who although clearly state they are pure and simple CD, must by definintion be transgendered if they identify themselves in any way as female, this includes the adoption of a female name.

As has already been stated "Transgendered = Crossed Gender"

**Rebecca Star** · 06-09-2012, 11:55 AM

For want of a better word I'm a CD. I present two uniquely different personas when I'm a male as apposed to when I'm Rebecca. The later is driven by definite feminine characteristics and dress et...al. Albeit I don't have an internal struggle with regard to being a girl stuck in a man's body etc..etc. But is that not a moot point given the changes I mention?

**ReineD** · 06-09-2012, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Rebecca Star

For want of a better word I'm a CD. I present two uniquely different personas when I'm a male as apposed to when I'm Rebecca. The later is driven by definite feminine characteristics and dress et...al. Albeit I don't have an internal struggle with regard to being a girl stuck in a man's body etc..etc. But is that not a moot point given the changes I mention?

And this post is a perfect example of the dire need, in this community, to come up with words that everyone will agree with, which more accurately define the major groups of people here.

Rebecca Star uses the term "crossdresser" to describe herself. Someone else who will feel just as she does, will use "transgender", because their definition of a crossdresser is a person who has no feminine bents or characteristics at all. Another person will say they are "bigender" or "dualgender", whether they feel themselves male/female, 75/25, 50/50, or 25/75. Someone else might specify the type of crossdresser and say they are an "identity CD". Still another person will say they are "crossgender".

**Inna** · 06-09-2012, 02:07 PM

LOL, I think the problematic nature of the subject at hand isn't so much with word definition, but that for lot, if not majority, knowing thy self is ever illusive through years of conditioned conformity to stereotype. How can a blind man see the color, how can deaf hear rain drops, just as well how transgender can honestly say "I AM", if all they know is subconscious fear of non conforming status!

**Kathryn Martin** · 06-09-2012, 02:11 PM

Transsexuals seek not to be included under the Transgender umbrella. You have it backwards.

Originally Posted by Marleena

Don't shoot the messenger! Bree in this case.

Some of the TS groups are elitists meaning that any MTF that does not identify as a TS woman is a crossdresser in their eyes. These groups are pushing for removing CD's from under the TG umbrella. Each TS group might have their own definition of Cder's however. This is the missing piece of the puzzle for the TS group Bree is referring to in the OP.

As for Julia and intersexed TS women being shunned is another example of discrimination as far as I'm concerned.

**ReineD** · 06-09-2012, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Inna

LOL, I think the problematic nature of the subject at hand isn't so much with word definition, but that for lot, if not majority, knowing thy self is ever illusive through years of conditioned conformity to stereotype.

This too. But, language forms the basis for awareness and ideas. If there is well-defined language (that must consider the major points along the gender spectrum rather than a choice of three: CD, TG, or TS), then it will make it easier for people to define themselves all that much sooner.

**AllieSF** · 06-09-2012, 02:17 PM

Reine, I think that finding the correct terminology for "us" is like trying to build a better mousetrap or searching for the Holy Grail. Nice to have, but impossible to do or find. I think what is needed more than anything else is for all people to just accept what exists as workable, and it is very workable, stay away from drawing lines on the beach where passing waves eventually wipe them out, support others in their quests and journeys and stay away from the us versus them mentality which can be rampant here in some threads and I have already read clearly in this one (based on reading the same comments from the same people many times in the past in less civilized threads).

If I am not mistaken, this very site has tried to define some terms on the home page. Then we have regional, country and cultural differences to deal with. If someone wants to draw the line so that "they" are on the correct side, let them and then ignore them, because that line is only important to them and anyone else who likes to take the narrower less inclusive approach to life. Some people say that Transgender should only be used for those who are a certain way, or you are TS only if you have or at least want to do this, or when you are on HRT, or you are a woman only if you have your genitals restructured into look alike non-functioning female ones. This is one of those discussions that can be interesting, somewhat informative, and also fun as people start to stake out their "earned" territory and then defend it against unwanted intruders.

Labels, contrary to what some think are not negative, though their use can be sometimes. They help describe and help the un-learned, novices and even the veterans to better understand something. They also sometimes help in serious discussions as long as the participants agree to some common definitions beforehand, or don;t get their sensitive noses bent out of shape when someone "misuses" a term. Otherwise, a good discussion can go bad very quickly. I use labels, stereotypes and pigeon holes all the time as a natural thought process to orientate myself in a conversation. I never hold strict boundaries to that label and let the conversation prove, disprove or expand my original assessment. So, with these types of discussions in this thread, I try to be flexible and learn from the experience, unless someone really gets down on one side or the other. Then my defenses go up for myself and for others.

Kathryin Martin: Are you saying that for all Transsexuals? I have read many TS's comments here that would indicate to me anyway, that it may not be the majority opinion.

**jillleanne** · 06-09-2012, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by ReineD

And this post is a perfect example of the dire need, in this community, to come up with words that everyone will agree with, which more accurately define the major groups of people here.

Good luck with that one. We haven't added the fact some will remain static in their label and other will remain fluid thoughout their entire lives evolving through other labels unbeknownst to them currently. So how can we accomodate every single person that expresses some variation of their opposite birth gender( let's not forget FtoM)? By assigning the term 'Transgender' to all and any that are pre-op/non-op. If they now, or intend to, live and work fulltime as the opposite gender, I would consider them as the gender they are expressing themselves as and not transgender or anything else. Obviously, anyone post op would simply be their current gender self, not their birth gender. I suspect this idea however to meet some resistance. If the opportunity arises whereby one needs to be more specific, well then, they can do that. " I am transgender, but if you must know, I am a heterosexual non-op transgender male."

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