Where do you draw the line?

[Kathryn Martin]

Allie, I would refer you to my first post in this thread. Once you realize the difference in the issues facing TS and TG persons then it becomes clear why this would be so. To state, as Marleena did, that TG persons are "pushing to remove" crossdressers" from the TG umbrella is simply not correct. It is TS persons who have been saying that their needs which are trans-health related do not find a useful home under the TG umbrella agenda which is social acceptance related. Understanding the difference between gender variance and transsexualism is at the heart of this debate.

This continuum and spectrum view that is so often taken is, with respect, simply wrong for TS persons, since if you are TS you are firmly rooted in a gender binary. You seek to make your body congruent with your gender experience, which is usually one gender not a little bit of this and little bit of that.

For TG persons this is different, which is why it is described as a variance from the gender binary. There you find persons which are more or less along a continuum between the poles of the binary. For instance a crossdresser often is a person of one gender, who expresses him/herself through clothing which is of the other gender, from slightly flamboyant to androgynous to fully of the other gender. Likewise gender queers who do not wish to be identified as one or the other gender at all. Those are variances and the degree of variance determines the location of the spectrum which is simply made of of a multitude of such locations.


Nothing in this debate however, takes anything away from the fact that we (TS and TG) all need support in each of our endeavors.

So, where do you draw the line? My line is drawn when someone tries to conflate sex and gender, tries to assert that we are all the same and is willfully blind to what the actual differences are. Sadly, determining the differences and developing appropriate approaches to the issues for each of them is hard work and doesn't make for good TV. So we all happily dance along without a care what problems we create for each other. Since TS persons are quite rare and few and far between while gender variant persons make up the vast majority of the TG community the very specific needs and issues facing TS persons gets drowned out. I have looked and there is a dearth of TS positive health related content out there. Most of the content is simply social acceptance content.

The TG community believes it needs TS persons under their umbrella, because their health issues lend legitimacy to the TG social acceptance agenda. However, in the process they dilute and often destroy the life and death needs of TS persons.

I have many gender variant friends for whom I have the greatest respect, friendship and love. But this stupid umbrella thing is harmful.

Kathryin Martin: Are you saying that for all Transsexuals? I have read many TS's comments here that would indicate to me anyway, that it may not be the majority opinion.

[Bree-asaurus]

To everyone asking me why I think we have to draw a line, I'm not saying we do. I asked: where do YOU draw the line?

Again, this discussion was prompted because I SEE people drawing lines everywhere and I don't always understand it. The only line I kind of draw in my head is explained by Reine in this quote:

The people who do not belong under the transgender umbrella, in my opinion, are people who solidly identify with their birth sex, i.e, cismen, ciswomen, and transvectic fetishists for whom the reason to dress is for sexual fetish only and they have not one iota of cross-gender identity.

I basically already said this in my initial post and a follow up post. But this is just my opinion. I have seen many people in the cross dressing forum explicitly say that they are totally happy being men and just like to wear women's cloths. If they have no gender issues... are they transgender? Regardless, I like that our local trans support group, while really only consists from transsexuals, is open to anyone (except the biggoted lol...). So even though we are there to basically support those with gender issues, we open up to cross dressers as well.

I think my question in response to Bree's would be "Why do we have to draw a line?".

I'm not sitting here saying we need to form a line drawing commitee... I just wanted to have an open discussion because people ARE drawing lines everywhere... it just baffles me that people can be so exclusive, like I mentioned in the examples in my original post.

I think the need for this discussion in the first place stems from the discrimination Nikki Araguz has experienced, and her experience is all too typical.

Exactly this!

No disrespect to you Bree so don't take my post the wrong way as it's not directed at you, but sooner or later, we all need to forget about the petty stuff like definitions/labels, and concentrate on the big picture which is getting governments and society to learn to accept all people from all walks of life, regardless of any differences.

That would be ideal, I totally agree... but until that happens we still have to look at things from a the standpoint that certain groups under this transgender umbrella need medical and legal support, but because we are saying anyone from a crossdresser to the intersexed is transgender, the transgender community as a whole is getting misrepresented... and I like what Kathryn had to say about this:

The issue for transsexuals is a medical issue and requires certain very specific things from a trans health perspective. The issue for gender variant persons requires certain things from a social acceptance perspective. But conflating sex and gender under the transgender umbrella, the very real trans health issues get drowned out by the social acceptance demands.

(I made partial quotes because quoting entire posts would make this post ginormous)

[jillleanne]

Allie, I would refer you to my first post in this thread. Once you realize the difference in the issues facing TS and TG persons then it becomes clear why this would be so. To state, as Marleena did, that TG persons are "pushing to remove" crossdressers" from the TG umbrella is simply not correct. It is TS persons who have been saying that their needs which are trans-health related do not find a useful home under the TG umbrella agenda which is social acceptance related. Understanding the difference between gender variance and transsexualism is at the heart of this debate.

This continuum and spectrum view that is so often taken is, with respect, simply wrong for TS persons, since if you are TS you are firmly rooted in a gender binary. You seek to make your body congruent with your gender experience, which is usually one gender not a little bit of this and little bit of that.

For TG persons this is different, which is why it is described as a variance from the gender binary. There you find persons which are more or less along a continuum between the poles of the binary. For instance a crossdresser often is a person of one gender, who expresses him/herself through clothing which is of the other gender, from slightly flamboyant to androgynous to fully of the other gender. Likewise gender queers who do not wish to be identified as one or the other gender at all. Those are variances and the degree of variance determines the location of the spectrum which is simply made of of a multitude of such locations.


Nothing in this debate however, takes anything away from the fact that we (TS and TG) all need support in each of our endeavors.

So, where do you draw the line? My line is drawn when someone tries to conflate sex and gender, tries to assert that we are all the same and is willfully blind to what the actual differences are. Sadly, determining the differences and developing appropriate approaches to the issues for each of them is hard work and doesn't make for good TV. So we all happily dance along without a care what problems we create for each other. Since TS persons are quite rare and few and far between while gender variant persons make up the vast majority of the TG community the very specific needs and issues facing TS persons gets drowned out. I have looked and there is a dearth of TS positive health related content out there. Most of the content is simply social acceptance content.

The TG community believes it needs TS persons under their umbrella, because their health issues lend legitimacy to the TG social acceptance agenda. However, in the process they dilute and often destroy the life and death needs of TS persons.

I have many gender variant friends for whom I have the greatest respect, friendship and love. But this stupid umbrella thing is harmful.

I would agree here Kaitlyn. When I was writing my last post here on P2, I was troubled when it came to TS's and had to give it alot of thought. Understanding they have separate needs, I was hesitant to include them under the TG umbrella and frankly do not believe they belong there IF they believe they must transition or intend to, or are currently, living FT as the opposite birth gender. I also believe it is not so hard to identiy and cater to the specific needs of the TS community without blending them into the TG community. It's a matter of educating those that need to know and who better than the TS community to do just that with the help and support of the TG community, provided both communities reccognize and accept the differences of each community. I personally, do not believe having the TS community under the same umbrella as the TG community assists anyone, in fact, it simply supports the confusion in getting the proper support and assistance for each community. That's not to say however, they cannot support each other as independant communities.

[Bree-asaurus]

I would agree here Kaitlyn. When I was writing my last post here on P2, I was troubled when it came to TS's and had to give it alot of thought. Understanding they have separate needs, I was hesitant to include them under the TG umbrella and frankly do not believe they belong there IF they believe they must transition or intend to, or are currently, living FT as the opposite birth gender. I also believe it is not so hard to identiy and cater to the specific needs of the TS community without blending them into the TG community. It's a matter of educating those that need to know and who better than the TS community to do just that with the help and support of the TG community, provided both communities reccognize and accept the differences of each community. I personally, do not believe having the TS community under the same umbrella as the TG community assists anyone, in fact, it simply supports the confusion in getting the proper support and assistance for each community. That's not to say however, they cannot support each other as independant communities.

You both make good points. I've seen a few transsexuals here that support the idea of separating TS and TG. As I stated earlier, I am of the opinion that TGs who are not cis-male cross dressers identified more with transsexuals because both groups have internal gender struggles. And that's also why I was wondering why CDs who have GID don't call themselves TG... because they aren't cross dressing in my mind, but simply expressing their internal gender, or part of it. But I guess that even though TGs have GID like TSs, the TGs aren't likely to seek medical and legal support to transition (guessing... don't yell at me!). So maybe it does make more sense to have two separate groups divided by the kind of support they need? If it's just social equality, or if it's social equality, medical and legal support. And even though being intersexed is not being transsexual (although many are both), TS and IS have similar needs that are different from the needs of CD and TG (if we remove TS from TG).

(By medical support, I don't mean therapists... I mean HRT, SRS, etc)

And I'm totally just talking here... questioning what I believe and talking out loud.

[Julia_in_Pa]

That is a well thought out and articulate answer and I couldn't agree with you more.

I would agree here Kaitlyn. When I was writing my last post here on P2, I was troubled when it came to TS's and had to give it alot of thought. Understanding they have separate needs, I was hesitant to include them under the TG umbrella and frankly do not believe they belong there IF they believe they must transition or intend to, or are currently, living FT as the opposite birth gender. I also believe it is not so hard to identiy and cater to the specific needs of the TS community without blending them into the TG community. It's a matter of educating those that need to know and who better than the TS community to do just that with the help and support of the TG community, provided both communities reccognize and accept the differences of each community. I personally, do not believe having the TS community under the same umbrella as the TG community assists anyone, in fact, it simply supports the confusion in getting the proper support and assistance for each community. That's not to say however, they cannot support each other as independant communities.

[Kelly Greene]

It seams to me that an idea is being proposed:

CD= I dress up in opposite gender clothing for fun, my body and gender match no need for major changes I just want to have fun.
TG= I have feelings of being both genders I find it difficult or impossible to live only as my birth gender, but I am not fully male or female (may need to some form of transition )
TS= my body and gender are out of sync and I need to get them to match, medical and legal changes needed

Everyone needs protection against violence and discrimination.

[ReineD]

CD= I dress up in opposite gender clothing for fun, my body and gender match no need for major changes I just want to have fun.
TG= I have feelings of being both genders I find it difficult or impossible to live only as my birth gender, but I am not fully male or female (may need to some form of transition )
TS= my body and gender are out of sync and I need to get them to match, medical and legal changes needed

LOL. We need to expand on the TG a bit, not only here, but in the media as well.

Currently, these are the various ways I've seen people use "TG":

• TG = I present as a man (no makeup, no girl's hair, no forms) but I like to wear dresses and heels as a man. This is who I am therefore I do not crossdress. But, I'm not strictly a guy either.
• TG = I'm a drag queen. I have breast implants, I've had FFS, I'm attracted to men, but I am known as a male in my gay community. I don't want to chop off my junk.
• TG = I'm genderqueer. I like to mix male cues such as my beard, with female cues such as breasts and a wig. To hell with everyone who disapproves.
• TG = I do not want to look like a man or a woman, I want to be sexless. I'm androgynous and I want my appearance to reflect this.
• TG = I have "fun" with the CDing most times, but at other times I have strong feminine feelings. I don't know who I am, so this label is easiest.
• TG = I feel a mixture of both genders, male and female but I prefer to present as a male most of the time.
• TG = I feel a mixture of both genders, male and female, but I prefer to present as a female most of the time.
• TG = All I want to do is be feminine, but I can't because my wife won't let me and we need my job. I only underdress. (Truth is, even if I didn't have the wife or the job, I likely wouldn't change anything).
• TG = All I want to do is wear the clothes all the time and I would love to have the boobs. This is not sexual for me at all. I hate dressing in drab, but there's no way I want to chop off my junk.
• TG = I'm a 14 year old. I know I am born in the wrong body, my parents are supporting my early transition, but the media says I am transgender and this is the label I choose to use since I don't want to apply a word that has "sexual" in it to myself. Ever.

I'm sure there are lots of others.

[jillleanne]

You both make good points. I've seen a few transsexuals here that support the idea of separating TS and TG. As I stated earlier, I am of the opinion that TGs who are not cis-male cross dressers identified more with transsexuals because both groups have internal gender struggles. And that's also why I was wondering why CDs who have GID don't call themselves TG... because they aren't cross dressing in my mind, but simply expressing their internal gender, or part of it. But I guess that even though TGs have GID like TSs, the TGs aren't likely to seek medical and legal support to transition (guessing... don't yell at me!). So maybe it does make more sense to have two separate groups divided by the kind of support they need? If it's just social equality, or if it's social equality, medical and legal support. And even though being intersexed is not being transsexual (although many are both), TS and IS have similar needs that are different from the needs of CD and TG (if we remove TS from TG).

(By medical support, I don't mean therapists... I mean HRT, SRS, etc)

And I'm totally just talking here... questioning what I believe and talking out loud.

I have to agree Bree but never give it much thought in hearing cd's w/gid that do not consider themselves Tg. I just chalk it up to the overall ongoing problem that we have such poorly accepted definitions of communities that I simply pay no mind to it. I think the fact some do not identify as TG is born from the facts they believe they are ' just crossdressers', or the term tg is too strong for them to accept or that being tg leads somehow to Ts'ism or to transition, I really don't know. Maybe toss that out there for feedback. lol I do know this as you mention; I am TG and do not at this point in my TG life, have a need or expect to have a need for medical or any other support now or in the future, unlike TS's. I do not however see why we as TG's cannot support the needs and goals of TS's and vice versa where and when necessary.

[Pink Person]

This is a good question. The pretzel logic that some of the people on this site use to
describe themselves is painful to contemplate. Take some aspirin before getting started.

In my opinion, if you self-identify as a crossdresser or can accurately be described as one through visual inspection then you are not cisgender. What does it mean to be "not cisgender"? There are many attributes and behaviors that can exclude you from being a gender normative person. Crossdressing is only one of them. Surgically modifying your body is another common way to indicate a "not cisgender" personality.

I think there are material similarities between all types of "not cisgender" people, but there are also some critical differences between some of these people. Are there words that capture all of our material similarities and distinguish all of our critical differences? Yes, but not single words.

The general terms and specific terms that are currently used to describe "not cisgender" people are sufficiently meaningful, in my opinion. People who want to define crossdressers as "transgender" or as "not transgender" are both right in different senses. Crossdressers are transgender in the sense that they are "not cisgender". Crossdressers are "not transgender" in the same sense that someone who self-identifies as transgender is transgender. In other words, crossdressers are relatively different from some transgender people, but are not absolutely different from them.

Cisgender people come in many shapes and sizes, so do transgender people. We should allow for a reasonable amount of inclusive variation in our gender categories before consigning other people or ourselves to the gender ether.

[jillleanne]

LOL. We need to expand on the TG a bit, not only here, but in the media as well.

Currently, these are the various ways I've seen people use "TG":

• TG = I present as a man (no makeup, no girl's hair, no forms) but I like to wear dresses and heels as a man. This is who I am therefore I do not crossdress. But, I'm not strictly a guy either.
• TG = I'm a drag queen. I have breast implants, I've had FFS, I'm attracted to men, but I am known as a male in my gay community. I don't want to chop off my junk.
• TG = I'm genderqueer. I like to mix male cues such as my beard, with female cues such as breasts and a wig. To hell with everyone who disapproves.
• TG = I do not want to look like a man or a woman, I want to be sexless. I'm androgynous and I want my appearance to reflect this.
• TG = I have "fun" with the CDing most times, but at other times I have strong feminine feelings. I don't know who I am, so this label is easiest.
• TG = I feel a mixture of both genders, male and female but I prefer to present as a male most of the time.
• TG = I feel a mixture of both genders, male and female, but I prefer to present as a female most of the time.
• TG = All I want to do is be feminine, but I can't because my wife won't let me and we need my job. I only underdress. (Truth is, even if I didn't have the wife or the job, I likely wouldn't change anything).
• TG = All I want to do is wear the clothes all the time and I would love to have the boobs. This is not sexual for me at all. I hate dressing in drab, but there's no way I want to chop off my junk.
• TG = I'm a 14 year old. I know I am born in the wrong body, my parents are supporting my early transition, but the media says I am transgender and this is the label I choose to use since I don't want to apply a word that has "sexual" in it to myself. Ever.

I'm sure there are lots of others.

LMAO, oh my, there are soooooo many more when one begins thinking. Therefore, to simplify things, let's use broader rather than finite words that will bond us in a way that supports each other within, and still allow us to recognize and support others that although maybe similar on the surface, require very different needs and support.

[TxKimberly]

OK, I am NOT angry, so dont read that attitude into my response, but I would have to argue with one or two of the things that you state as givens. To the best of my admittedly poor memory, cross dressers ARE under the transgender umbrella by definition. Not that "dictionary.com" is the end all get all resource, but: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transgender?s=t

The next point I would argue with you about is again based on definitions, but this time they work against me. Most definitions of transsexualism that I have seen require that the person be actively taking steps to change their body. In my humble opinion, being TS is about what you think and feel, not about what you are doing to your body, but who the hell am I to argue with the experts. . . Point being, that since I am not willing to give up my wife, my children, and my career to transition, I will remain a cross dresser - someone who takes every chance they get to spend time as female, but will not be changing my body, living full time, or transitioning. All of this leads up to your comment "since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another." This couldn't be farther from the truth for a good many of us.
If we play the "by definition" game, I am a cross dresser, but I assure you that I, and many others like me, suffer just as many internal struggles about my gender and body as those of you that meet the definition of TS, and we would probably benefit from and desire the same social support that you seek.
NOTHING is so simple, clear cut, and black and white when dealing with the transgender, that you can comfortably say or think that a cross dresser has no place in a TS support group.

I guess that in my opinion you need to ask more than "are you a TS" or "Are you a CD", because there will quite likely be a lot of gray in there somewhere . . .

[Kaitlyn Michele]

in the end, we don't get to draw these lines anyway...and the lines WE draw have virtually no meaning to others...
we can all call ourselves whatever we want...but nobody is a mind reader...and almost nobody cares what we "self identify as..."

In the daily grind, all of our interactions will be filtered through our gender.....you do get to decide which filter gets reflected back at you...but that's about it.

You can choose to live an inside your head life and that's obviously something that people do quite alot when faced with all of this..
...but if you do that, like it or not, you don't have skin in this game other than whether you get your feelings hurt..



reine earlier talked about a dire need for more descriptive labels...i don't agree... i'm with Pink P's point that NOT cisgender is a pretty bright line.......after that it gets muddy and impractical..

[jillleanne]

OK, I am NOT angry, so dont read that attitude into my response, but I would have to argue with one or two of the things that you state as givens. To the best of my admittedly poor memory, cross dressers ARE under the transgender umbrella by definition. Not that "dictionary.com" is the end all get all resource, but: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transgender?s=t

The next point I would argue with you about is again based on definitions, but this time they work against me. Most definitions of transsexualism that I have seen require that the person be actively taking steps to change their body. In my humble opinion, being TS is about what you think and feel, not about what you are doing to your body, but who the hell am I to argue with the experts. . . Point being, that since I am not willing to give up my wife, my children, and my career to transition, I will remain a cross dresser - someone who takes every chance they get to spend time as female, but will not be changing my body, living full time, or transitioning. All of this leads up to your comment "since cross dressers, by definition, identify as the sex they were born as, are they truly transgender? They don't have any internal struggles with their identity. They are male, like being male and simply like women's clothing for one reason or another." This couldn't be farther from the truth for a good many of us.
If we play the "by definition" game, I am a cross dresser, but I assure you that I, and many others like me, suffer just as many internal struggles about my gender and body as those of you that meet the definition of TS, and we would probably benefit from and desire the same social support that you seek.
NOTHING is so simple, clear cut, and black and white when dealing with the transgender, that you can comfortably say or thing that a cross dresser has no place in a TS support group.

I guess that in my opinion you need to ask more than "are you a TS" or "Are you a CD", because there will quite likely be a lot of gray in there somewhere . . .

I'm not sure if cd's are under the TG banner or not by definition, which, for all intense purposes, means little currently because we have cd's that do not accept they are Tg. Herein lies one of the problems, right? Also, all cd's have gender identy issues. Some control it better than others but anyone that hides anything, physical or mental, has gender identity issues.
I agree with your feelings about TS's partially in that, I think TS's know they are out of sync with birth gender and NEED to correct it. That's not to say they are in transition because there are many reasons they cannot at the current time transition. But they accept they NEED, not WANT to transition. That transition may or may not include GRS but the steps needed to be taken will provide gender and legal changes.

Failure to understand GID might lead someone into falsely thinking they are TS when in fact they are TG with a NEED to express who they are, not necessarily transition.

I think my situation is about as close to the edge of definitions as one can get. Before I came out of the closet, I was at a breaking point mentally. Not to transition because the NEED to do so never ever materialized. But the NEED to stop hiding/lying to myself and others was so strong I reached a point that I was willing to give up all and anything I achieved in 50 years. All I knew is I had to come out of the closet and express my feminine side whenever I wanted to. My feminine side completely took over my life, not the need to become a woman but the need to express myself without fear. Transition was never a consideration BUT if it had come up in the future, I would deal with it then. I was suffering from GIS, Gender Identity Secrecy!
So I was at the extreme end of the Transgender spectrum whereby I know I am heterosexual, and have no NEED to transition, but remaining in a closet was not an option. I have been out now for some years now. I am still heterosexual, I express my feminine self whenever and for as long as I feel I want to which could be weeks. Nothing has changed since coming out except the demons in my head are gone. I know who I am. I am a heterosexual transgender male.
I understand there will be some that continue on a gender road that never rests, in that, they will evolve from crossdressing to needing to be transexual to needing to transition to needing SRS/GRS/FRS and more. I also believe we as communities of Transgender and Transexual people can support each other in our needs without obscuring who we are yet be able to recognize and support the individual needs of each one of us. If we educate ourselves in who we are, surely we will have a much easier time educating society, political leaders, and medical practitioners as to the needs and support mechanisms required for each community.

[Badtranny]

and also fun as people start to stake out their "earned" territory and then defend it against unwanted intruders.

This is my favorite quote in this discussion so far. Human Nature sometimes prevents as much progress as it encourages.

[Xrys]

It would apear that I have found something to spark yet another moment of deep thought and self reflection from the philosophical jaberjaw.

First of all, being able to clearly define and classify different levels or severities of gender identity and expression is difficult. Most attempts to classify this type of thing resemble a grey scale. You have two extremes. At one end you have light crossdressing, like underdressing. at the other end you have the full transition, living 24/7 as the opposite gender. Then people try to figure out where on this scale they are. I feel however that the scale is not acurate, as there are a number of factors contributing to ones gender identity. If we can group those factors into 3 categories, and assign each category a contributory value we could more acurately evaluate each situation. The grey scale only is acurate if all therr factors contribute equally. If there is variance in the different factors, then you are stuck trying to figure out what shade of grey red is supposed to be.

Second, there are so many varying shades of each color that one seems to seemlessy blend into another. I mean you can look at come things and say, "oh, that is red," or, "oh, that's orange." But sometimes you look at it and say "well, it is kinda orangeish, redish, kinda medium dark kinda color, I think" It is like asking who is more of a crossdresser, someone who underdresses daily, or someone who fully decks out, but only once a week?

The Third dificulty is the fact thet we are always moving on a path of self discovery, self expression, and self acceptance. Where we were yesterday, we will not be tomorow, until we find our true selves, accept our true selves, and learn to express our true selves. This process for some can take their entire lifetime. It is hard to classify something that is still changing.

Unfortunately, it is easier for for me to see the obstacles than it is for me to find a solution, and I must admit that I do not have one. All i can say is this. There is comething inside that yearns to be expressed and acknowleged, and it chooses something outside of society's gender boundries for that expression. It is unique to each of us, and is only through self reflection, and sometimes professional therapy that we come to understand what it is, and come to accept it as part of ourselves. It is not a matter of just Black, White, and shades of grey, we are dealing with an infinate spectrum of dazeling colors that are constantly shifting and changing. Why does humanity always seem to pick two extremes, then try to cram everything else in a one dimensoinal scale between them.

Sorry, it is realy late for me. Mabey I should return in the morning with a fresh mind and try to make sense of my rambleings.

[LisaMallon]

Hear, hear Nigella, well said. There are far too few of us to not stick together and support everyone.

We all have enough problems with the rest of the World without creating some amongst ourselves.

[mbmeen12]

PS: Personally, believing the above statement to be true, I haven't come
across any individual who would dress in opposite sex clothing and yet remain
absolutely masculine and rigid.

Bingo Inna, well stated and that is me to the "T". Bree, I have been off line and wish you are well after your surgery too, Kara....

[Sally24]

CROSS dressing is dressing as a gender you do not identify as... hence the CROSS.

Unfortunately no. Crossdressing is probably the widest category here and is defined as..."the wearing of clothing designed for the opposite sex". I think the CDs who do so for a sexual excitement and the ones who do it purely because it relaxes them do not belong under the transgendered umbrella. Otherwise, I suspect that most CDs have some internal struggle between male and female.

And the people arguing that TS should not be under the TG "umbrella" do not believe that many, if not most, under that umbrella are experiencing the same thing. I meet hundreds of "transgendered" people every year in my social groups and very few have no GID at all. Transsexualism is experienced by many who never transition. And yes, many if not most of those that have SRS did so because the only other choice was suicide. That does not make it a totally different condition, just a severe case of the SAME condition. And as far as the association diluting and reducing the ability of TS people to obtain what they need from society I have to heartily disagree. From us that testify, and lobby for rights, and protections, and medical coverage, over half are TG and not transitioned transsexuals. That work, and our meeting the public and educating them is the primary reason why things have changed for the good so much in the last 10 years. Many TS go stealth or at least low profile so you won't see them on tv or testifying before legislatures or congress. Separating the TS from the TG would be self defeating and incorrect.

[LeaP]

... People who want to define crossdressers as "transgender" or as "not transgender" are both right in different senses. Crossdressers are transgender in the sense that they are "not cisgender". Crossdressers are "not transgender" in the same sense that someone who self-identifies as transgender is transgender. In other words, crossdressers are relatively different from some transgender people, but are not absolutely different from them.

Cisgender people come in many shapes and sizes, so do transgender people. We should allow for a reasonable amount of inclusive variation in our gender categories before consigning other people or ourselves to the gender ether.

Unfortunately no. Crossdressing is probably the widest category here and is defined as..."the wearing of clothing designed for the opposite sex". I think the CDs who do so for a sexual excitement and the ones who do it purely because it relaxes them do not belong under the transgendered umbrella. Otherwise, I suspect that most CDs have some internal struggle between male and female.

I agree with both sets of comments.

[Julia_in_Pa]

Most if not all advances concerning gender marker change on driver licenses and birth certificates as well as advancing inclusion for transsexual specific health care along with a myriad of other legal advancements have been spearheaded by transsexual activists that are transsexuals.

Your circular logic concerning transsexual people going stealth after transition thus the reason why the rest of the transgender umbrella has fought and must fight for advances is incorrect.

The very reason why they do disappear is because they wish to move on with their lives. They have nothing in common with anyone claiming the " Transgender umbrella".

This leaves those that have transitioned and have decided to work as advocates and activists to create a more acceptable world for those TS and IS transitioning or transitioned individuals.

Of course you have teams of legal support IE lawers paralegals, etc that are not transsexual that are working in conjunction with transsexual activists.

Part timers, cross dresser's along with other transgender subsets have no qualification or need for gender marker changes concerning driver's licenses or birth certificates due to them not living full time. They do not need housing protections, employment protections nor do they need transsexual specific healthcare to the exception of part timer's moving towards transition thus making your statement incorrect.

You tell me and the rest of us here how a gender marker change on a drivers license for a cross dresser or part timer makes logical sense to you.

It is a constant battle to downplay public image that the general public has of transsexual and Intersexed people due to their perceptions by the public of these groups being a party of perversion of men in dresses.

I've said this many times here and I'm quite sure that I'll say it many times over that transsexual and Intersexed people have little to anything in common with the transgender umbrella thus will not be included under it.

And as far as the association diluting and reducing the ability of TS people to obtain what they need from society I have to heartily disagree. From us that testify, and lobby for rights, and protections, and medical coverage, over half are TG and not transitioned transsexuals. That work, and our meeting the public and educating them is the primary reason why things have changed for the good so much in the last 10 years. Many TS go stealth or at least low profile so you won't see them on tv or testifying before legislatures or congress. Separating the TS from the TG would be self defeating and incorrect.

[jillleanne]

Most if not all advances concerning gender marker change on driver licenses and birth certificates as well as advancing inclusion for transsexual specific health care along with a myriad of other legal advancements have been spearheaded by transsexual activists that are transsexuals.

Your circular logic concerning transsexual people going stealth after transition thus the reason why the rest of the transgender umbrella has fought and must fight for advances is incorrect.

The very reason why they do disappear is because they wish to move on with their lives. They have nothing in common with anyone claiming the " Transgender umbrella".

This leaves those that have transitioned and have decided to work as advocates and activists to create a more acceptable world for those TS and IS transitioning or transitioned individuals.

Of course you have teams of legal support IE lawers paralegals, etc that are not transsexual that are working in conjunction with transsexual activists.

Part timers, cross dresser's along with other transgender subsets have no qualification or need for gender marker changes concerning driver's licenses or birth certificates due to them not living full time. They do not need housing protections, employment protections nor do they need transsexual specific healthcare to the exception of part timer's moving towards transition thus making your statement incorrect.

You tell me and the rest of us here how a gender marker change on a drivers license for a cross dresser or part timer makes logical sense to you.

It is a constant battle to downplay public image that the general public has of transsexual and Intersexed people due to their perceptions by the public of these groups being a party of perversion of men in dresses.

I've said this many times here and I'm quite sure that I'll say it many times over that transsexual and Intersexed people have little to anything in common with the transgender umbrella thus will not be included under it.

Julie, you are absolutely correct in your post. I for one must apologize to you specifically. I have not taken into consideration in any of my posts to this thread, the concerns specific to anyone that identifies as intersexed. I will however, adjust my memory banks to ensure when replying to a post anywhere, I do not forget the intersexed people. How terrible of me, again, my apologies.

[max]

Part timers, cross dresser's along with other transgender subsets ..,do not need housing protections, employment protections nor do they need transsexual specific healthcare to the exception of part timer's moving towards transition thus making your statement incorrect.

They don't? I'd swear that it seemed as though the potential effects on employment prospects was a major consideration for many cross dressers on being "out"... I think I even read a post here where somebody was fired for underdressing, and more where it was considered the likely reason for dismissal.

[Marleena]

I would agree here Kaitlyn. When I was writing my last post here on P2, I was troubled when it came to TS's and had to give it alot of thought. Understanding they have separate needs, I was hesitant to include them under the TG umbrella and frankly do not believe they belong there IF they believe they must transition or intend to, or are currently, living FT as the opposite birth gender. I also believe it is not so hard to identiy and cater to the specific needs of the TS community without blending them into the TG community. It's a matter of educating those that need to know and who better than the TS community to do just that with the help and support of the TG community, provided both communities reccognize and accept the differences of each community. I personally, do not believe having the TS community under the same umbrella as the TG community assists anyone, in fact, it simply supports the confusion in getting the proper support and assistance for each community. That's not to say however, they cannot support each other as independant communities.

Thanks Jilleanne! This gave me clarity about the issue. I stand corrected @ Kathyrn, what I was hearing was that the TS groups wanted CDers removed from the umbrella grouping.

[Kathryn Martin]

I think the CDs who do so for a sexual excitement and the ones who do it purely because it relaxes them do not belong under the transgendered umbrella. Otherwise, I suspect that most CDs have some internal struggle between male and female

And what makes you believe that they are not worthy of the protections that the umbrella brings. Do you really believe that being inflicted by a condition that requires you to identify crossgender to obtain sexual gratification is less distressing than other forms of gender variance?

I would also like you to explain on what basis you consider transsexualism simply an intensification of cross gender identification, when in fact transsexuals do not have cross gender identification at the root of their condition.

And your blanket statement that many TS go stealth and that they don`t go on tv or testify before legislative bodies is simply too broad. And, not quite correct.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Everybody on earth needs "rights",,its an easy conversation...how can i not support your rights??

Julie is talking about specific things..this is where it really matters... and when people that are talking generally communicate with people talking specifics...there is no way for it to be effective...

its like when politicians say they are "working for us"...what the heck does that mean??
that's why they often name a specific person and talk about how that specific person is being helped by some policy..

A crossdresser that underdresses , and gets fired for underdressing sounds like a fool to me... what did he do? show off his panty hose or panties?? even if he got caught by accident its a silly situation... if you need to crossdress while you go house hunting, your problem is not your "rights" its your priorities..

The showoff underdressers theoritical right to do that is totally at odds with my rights ...because if i get lumped in with him..i am much less likely to get broad support for the types of medical and legal protections I need...this is how generalities run aground when you talk specifics..

it also strikes me as hypocritical that so many crossdressers separate themselves from the "fetish" dressers but rail against a transsexual that doesn't feel they identify as a transgender person...if its really important to you have a name for yourself, that you own and live by, then i clearly have that same right..it makes no sense that a person can complain about how another "labels" them, but has no problem labeling other people...this is why its such a crazy conversation and keeping it simple is the most effective way to talk about it...

You either transition or you don't...thats the most workable line...we live, work, and play...we don't walk around talking about lines and explaining how we self identify to people..
That's how the world looks at it, that's how the world will treat you...and that's how you will experience your gender problem...

is it possible for you and me to support each other's "rights" while disagreeing with some of the specifics of it?? that's perhaps where the most meaningful conversation can take place...