I think you would be surprised at how often this not the case. Expressing is not the same as being and, for many, the clothes are a powerful reminder of what is not. Truly, it's not about the expression (clothing).Originally Posted by Pink Person
I think you would be surprised at how often this not the case. Expressing is not the same as being and, for many, the clothes are a powerful reminder of what is not. Truly, it's not about the expression (clothing).
Lea
I’m surprised that my previous comments could be so confusing to a smart person.
Self-identified (trans) feminine people have self-identified (trans) feminine beings that can be expressed by the clothes they wear. If you are too busy being yourself to find time to express your being in any manner then clothing choices will never get made.
If your clothes remind you of "what is not" instead of "what is" then you should get some help to dress yourself.
Last edited by Pink Person; 09-23-2012 at 01:22 AM.
Pink, I NEVER "underdressed". I barely even crossdressed until my year of experimentation. (ahhh that crazy 2009)
To this day (after transition) I don't care one way or another about the clothes. I do not get any kind of thrill getting dressed every morning, except when my jewelery totally coordinates. I wear women's clothes cuz I want to look cute and I don't want to look like a dude.
I'm not a fashion doctor. I don't care if people underdress or overdress or dress just right like Goldilocks. However, I do find all of the tortured denials about the positive benefits of crossdressing or transdressing or simply dressing to be sadly phony. No one cares when you started dressing to suit yourself. However, if you've never done it then you plainly don't understand your own skin and what's in it.
You couldn't possibly be talking to me. I mean really.
weather one or the other is right, truth of the matter is much simpler. Testosterone driven cognitive mechanics will not posses ability to fully understand and comprehend Estrogen rich emotional content. Vice verse, Estrogen mind will no longer feel and carry a T charge which makes two worlds as far apart as Mars from Venus.
So the point of view is correct on both sides however distant from each other.
Speaking from a transsexual POV is not comparable to a crossdressers POV.....and you have to leave out the confusing and unknowable issue of whether you "know" what you are and all the personal feelings around it..
if you are transsexual, the ONLY relief you will ever feel from your feeling of otherness is to express your femaleness...and femininity is only one way to express femaleness.. for many its the only way, even if its just underdressing...
but for many transsexuals, they don't do any dressing or underdressing...they run headlong into maleness and for many years may not even consider their femaleness...i've seen it over and over..
we are very good at repressing the feelings ...my best buddy is another melissa, and she never ever dressed or underdressed...it made her fell like an "idiot" in her words... my friend dusty was playing sex roles with her girlfriend...and looked at herself dressed at 53 yrs old for the first time...and it was an OMG, holy f*** s*** moment (or so she says..hehe).....she almost immediately transitoned!!!... on and on it goes..i dressed constantly and when not dressing thought about it, but put it in a corner of my head that avoided for 40 yrs.....and if you do go down the repression path, the universal outcome is that OMG moment and your life becomes about what you are going to do about it..
for me personally, around my marriage time, i swore off crossdressing...but it was so bad that over a couple yrs the only expression i felt was that i have small hands, and i let my pinky nail grow a little and curved it just a little...and i'd sit there watching tv, or be in a meeting and i'd stare at it...how sad
also i totally rejected jewelery and cologne of any kind...altho not inherently feminine, they came too close to the fire... this was not what i thought at the time btw... i just felt like i was keeping on keeping on...
so pink i don't think abouts tortured denials or being phony....its about the way a transsexuals self awareness tends to pinball around uncontrollably..resulting in vastly different paths and outcomes for those of us that take the step and live completely nd totally as women....
maybe if you look at it totally analytically you could say that a person that IS transsexual, but honestly doesnt consider themselves so and never ever considers or dresses in female attire of any kind doesn't understand their own skin...but saying its a denial or phony thing is off the mark..
.....
I'm going to reply with a little trepidation...but at the same time I'm gonna have some fun with this.
Originally when I read this thread, this feeling came from those stupid trans-hierarchy's that are out there. Like, "OMG, is my TS-ness going to be called into question if I admit to something such as underdressing???"
Then again, I don't care so much what others perceive in me. I have shared enough about myself and am satisfied with my own sense of honesty to know who and what I am. But still, it cracks me up that it even takes a leap of faith for one who identifies as TS, or perhaps better put, as a female, to admit that wearing panties somehow made/makes them feel better.
There, I said it. My name is Sara and yes, I underdress.
It is one of those things that in my daily life trying to balance two genders that helps me cope. I'm not one who writes about my undies in panty threads (OK, but if you must know, they're Calvin Klein, a gorgeous shade of medium purple with aqua lace trim about the waistband), not that there is anything wrong with that. I don't write about the make & model numbers of panties, bras, shapewear, etc. that I've seen before (not that there's anything wrong with that either but it does seem a bit OTT). I don't wear a bra in guy mode because really, I don't have boobs so it'd be rather unnecessary and besides, I'm not in the mood of having to explain the straps showing through my top...er, shirt. I sometimes choose to wear pantyhose or tights under my pants as well. And after a day's work, they typically come off right when I get home.
There, it's Sunday morning and I have confessed my sin.
Fact of the matter for me is that it's not how the clothes feel, it's how they make me feel. I will do this for as long as my commitment to a middle path survives which is intended to be for the rest of my life. Then if someday I do end up transitioning, I guess pretty underwear won't matter in the least bit and I'll start buying it in 3-packs at WalMart.
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
Two comments:
Firstly, this is typical overstatement by people who don't understand the difference between cross-dressing because you like the feel of a different gender's clothing and wearing the clothing appropriate to your true gender. Since you self-identify as transsexual even though you do not need to transition, I would have hoped that you would have understood.
There is nothing wrong with any woman who wants to look pretty or with any man who wants to look stylish and/or attractive, but a woman does not choose pretty clothes because they are women's clothes, she chooses them because they are pretty clothes and therein lies the difference of attraction for an MtF cross-dresser or an MtF transsexual.
Second point, if someone can only afford WalMart clothing (not all of us have 6 figure salaries) then there is nothing wrong with that person buying what they can afford and it is absolutely wrong for any member here to look down on or to dis that person.
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This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
When I first discovered this site I was looking for answers, and I was horrified to find out that I was wrong again about what I was because I didn't cross dress throughout my life. I read through all the stories and kicked myself for not cross dressing as a kid. I felt kind of embarrassed that I never did and it wasn't something I would have been proud of. So here I am, basically believing that I had been wrong about wanting to be a girl all those years because I didn't even cross dress. Clearly there must be something else wrong with me.
I joined the forum anyway, but it wasn't until my therapist told me some weeks or months later, that I wasn't as unusual as I thought I was, that I began to understand. I came to this place differently than some, but I came and now I'm on the other side and can look back with a clarity that I didn't have before. The clothes simply mean something different to different people. To some they represent everything feminine, to others they are just pretty underpants. I don't know that it matters one way or the other.
Wow, so I just read this whole entire thread and what I learned is that each individual person had an individual experience, which lead to an individual history regarding underdressing. Just to add my story, I have underdressed regularly for about 3 years now. For me, it is a nod to myself, an admission to myself that yes I am TS, yes I am trying to figure it out, and yes I am willing to change parts of my male past already. Am I transitioning yet? Not with HRT or surgery, but I am changing as I explore myself and try to deal with this reality I have ignored since I first realized its existence at age 15.
I think one of the things about being TS that bothers me the most is that there is no test for it. I can't give a blood sample, pee in a cup, or take a written exam to find out if I am "really" TS. Everything else in life today has such a test, but this doesn't. That is I think part of why people compare stories and ask questions like the OP. We are trying to figure stuff out and we ask "Am I like them?" Personally, ANYTHING you can do to help you deal with being TS is fair game as long as you don't injure other people or break a law. Want to wear a pair of panties? Go for it! Want to have a formal tea party? Knock yourself out! Need to transition? By all means, do so! Just don't sit in the dark, so afraid of life that you start thinking about long walks off short piers. Life is a gift, thank God ours are all different! Let's enjoy our differences, not throw rocks because Melissa didn't underdress, but I do.
Anna
"If you're going through Hell, keep going."
-Winston Churchill
Now that I know who I am, I wouldn't take a test even if they had one. Once you open yourself up and find out what you're really feeling deep down, tests won't matter.
If I took a test and it said I wasn't TS, that would f*** me up. And I certainly wouldn't go back to how things were before because of a test. What if the test didn't pick up on the right things? What if there was an error? I'm going to live my life the way I need to in order to be as sane and happy as possible, test or no test.
@ Sarah I thought I was TG when I joined here. What I've been learning here is many TS women knew something was different about them at an early age (5 for me) but I didn't know why I was different. Why would I at age 8 just decide to put on my sister's dress, nylons, and undergarments? I just knew that I felt right suddenly and I wasn't doing anything wrong. I got caught and chastized for it so I was careful after that. In my twenties I wanted to be a girl real bad, so much so I was taking my GF's birth control pills. I had no clue what to do because it was way before the internet. I gave up on the idea and went into a guy's life I was supposed to, or taught to. I think many of us older girls suppressed who we were and conformed. So here I am again in my lafe fifties and on HRT to manage my GID. All of the childhood memories have come back to me that were buried for decades.
Sure some TS girls never CD'ed but maybe they came to the realization they were TS in other ways. There is no merit badge for being TS and never having crossdressed.
*Disclaimer* I am not speaking for anybody else here, just my own opinions. There are some experts here that can give better facts than me.
Last edited by Marleena; 09-24-2012 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Disclaimer
Marleena,
Terrific post as always darlin.
Fulfilling a Lifetime Dream of Living as a Woman in My Adult Years.
My Love of Cat's Eye Frames, Bangles, Red Lipstick, Nails, & Cheeks, Comes From My Mother - An Irish Beauty
I'm Always Rainbow Proud
Thanks Arlene but I hate spilling my guts.
Last edited by Marleena; 09-23-2012 at 08:36 PM. Reason: was ranting
I certainly can't find fault with your statement, Bree. The point I was trying to make was we live in a society where we are used to taking a test and then being told "X". I am a product of that society, so I am conditioned to want just such a test. If you are happy being you, go be you! You'll recall I eluded to exactly what you are saying, you have to do whatever it is that works for you and keeps you sane. For myself, I'm trying to figure out what that is going to look like for me. I'm fighting a battle between knowing my old life image isn't working, but being afraid to pay the price of giving it up. Slowly, the girl is winning, but there is still a long way for me to go. My simple wish is that I could take a test that would tell me definitively that yes, I am TS. I think the reason I wish for such a thing is that then there would be a really smart person in a lab coat telling the world that it is OK for me to stop being Allen, and in fact better for me to live as Anna. I suspect that after transition, I will likely feel very much like you do now.
Anna
Anna
"If you're going through Hell, keep going."
-Winston Churchill
I was torn about whether to specifically identify that I was half-kidding about that last sentence of mine.
Only half?
Yes, because it seems that there are at least some who transition (often a vocal "some") who seem to eschew pretty as if they wish to distance themselves from any chance of perception that it's about the clothes in any way, shape or form.
I left the sentence without explanation because it speaks to some of the tone about underdressing previously described, hence my trepidation because one's transness is often measured BY SOME IN THE COMMUNITY as to how much suffering they have endured and/or how NOT CD'er they are. It's like if you admit that style is fun and this matters to you, how you present yourself to the world matters to you, then perhaps you are not trans enough.
I have a (dearly departed) friend who took a lot of grief because she chose to transition AND remain faithful to the pretty. She was accused in many circles of being not trans enough. I do think that a problem she ran into is that her newfound freedom to express herself ran headfirst into a freedom to experiment which made others perceive that it was the clothes, the shoes, the makeup which mattered. No, this was all just expression but I think the perception was compounded by her somewhat limited pre-transition experiences in the real world.
And anyone who knows me knows that if I went down that transition path tomorrow, my own personal sense of style would remain unchanged. Some women choose to pay attention to this sort of thing, some don't. Same holds true for transwomen.
Well certainly it wasn't my intent for that comment to offend the person who choses to shop at the likes of WalMart for price purposes. It was actually a variation on something I've said before, that life's too short to buy one's panties out of packages. But then again, if anyone is paying at least a little bit of attention, they can find wonderful bargains at places such as TJ Maxx where I've actually tripped into some very pricey undies on clearance for as little as a dollar each. I bet three of those is less than that three-pack at WalMart.Second point, if someone can only afford WalMart clothing (not all of us have 6 figure salaries) then there is nothing wrong with that person buying what they can afford and it is absolutely wrong for any member here to look down on or to dis that person.
When all is said and done, this whole underdressing thing is a big "who cares". None of the above defines what is in our hearts. If the fully transitioned woman spent her pre-transition years underdressing because it helped her cope, because she liked it for whatever reason, then terrific. If the fully transitioned woman avoided women's clothing like the plague because it reminded her of her gender angst, then terrific as well. We are all different and contrary to what some might have us believe, there is no blueprint for this thing of ours.
Last edited by Sara Jessica; 09-23-2012 at 07:30 PM.
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
Yep. We're all traveling in the same direction but each of us walks alone.
Underdress? you mean like wearing skimpy clothes so that every time you are out, guys approach you and ask for a hotdog?
in all honesty though I simply think that the Title of this OP is where the friction arises from. For many transexual woman, connotations of dressing anything to achieve sensation of sexual nature, such as one usually associated with under dressing while still seeing world through Testosterone eyes, is a recollection of period in their life which felt wrong, out of context and source of confusion as to true self of being a woman. Many have never experienced such and just a thought of attaching sexual hype to act of wearing woman's underwear feels wrong to them. Nothing wrong with the act, just someones take on something foreign and unlikely for them.
Last edited by Inna; 09-24-2012 at 12:37 AM.
On the topic of whether a TS is "TS" enough if she loves fashion and jewelry or lacy underwear (which might appear to some as if it's all about the clothes or fetish and not the inner woman), I'd like to point out that among GGs, personal tastes (and degree of vanity) vary greatly.
Maybe body type has something to do with this. I have a friend who is 5' 2", squarish build, incredibly short waisted, is about 50 lbs over weight, and it is *hell* for her to shop for just about anything. So she doesn't. Other women who are blessed with leaner, longer bodies could care less about fashion either ... they have their lives, kids, husbands, work, friends, they're not social butterflies, and this is enough for them. While other women are coquettes and dearly love fashion and jewelry, although this does seem to abate as a woman ages. Maybe it also has to do with how secure someone feels within themselves. There are some women who source their identities from how they perceive others see them, with others place more stock into their accomplishments. It also has to do with whether someone is single or not. Women who are looking for partners will generally put more effort into their appearance.
There is a wide variety of personalities, and anyone's motives for preferring or needing certain things in their lives that others don't need is too complex to even try to analyze.
Reine
Not crossdressing is very common among transsexuals
Sexuality is totally disconnected to whether you are transsexual
You don't have to "know" you were female since you were five years old to be transsexual
It is possible for transsexuals to repress themselves so much that they go long periods of time without thinking about it.
Transsexuals often have sexual fantasy thoughts about themselves as women or expressing themselves as women
Your physicality or your ability to blend in or "pass" as female has absoluteley nothing to do with whether you are transsexual..
Transsexuals can have penises
Although my opinion is that the best way to deal with being transsexual is to admit it, accept it, embrace it, and then plot a course for transition, this is not always possible, and ts women should use any means neccessary (including underdressing) to mitigate the very difficult situation of living a man's life when you are in fact a woman.
The COGIATI test is the best way to figure out if you are transsexual...
Can you identify which statement does not belong???
You really should put a smiley to indicate that you are being either ironic or provocative, Inna.
The term is well enough used on these forums to indicate wearing something of the opposite gender under gender-conforming outer clothing that it should not provoke any misunderstanding.
I'm fairly confident that the other replies all understood that the OP was asking whether any of the TS on these forums found wearing female garment under male outer clothing (for MtF) or male garments under female outer clothing (for FtM) had provided any tangible relief from the feelings provoked by their Gender Identity Disorder.
No
Last edited by Rianna Humble; 09-24-2012 at 08:16 AM.
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This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
I went back and added a disclaimer to my earlier post just to play it safe.
In response, I think I'll clarify my original comment.
Perhaps I was trying to be too clever twisting the common phrase "it's not about the clothes" to "it's not about the expression (clothes)." What I really meant is that clothing can turn out to be unhelpful when the basic issue is being male bodied. Covering it with female clothing, when the underlying bits are not female, provides only a superficial illusion for some of us. And, it can indeed be irritating in the way that I stated. This has precisely nothing to do with my ability to dress well or properly.
Expression itself is important, But I am finding that on HRT how I feel is much more important than external expression, at least of that type. What is important to me are subtle body changes, emotional change, hair restoration, carriage, weight loss, and other such "expressions" for now. I think about clothing now and again, but it barely makes the list.
Lea
A good distinction between external and internal expression, Lea. Underdressing -- for those who aren't or haven't transitioned -- is internal expression. It connects with the self in some kind of mysterious unconscious way and is, for me, very beneficial in calming the GID thunderstorms inside the head. That's why, and only why. And I would wager that once one starts transitioning, taking hormones, going full time RLE, etc, underdressing becomes inherently pointless. So it's a question of where you are on the gender spectrum but also where you are in the process, if indeed you are having a process.
elizabethamy
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