A new family or a new vagina

[DebbieL]

Not to mess things up too badly, but I would point out that children are a 20-25 year commitment, and they will consume a substantial portion of you resources. The SRS is a one-time cost, and once you complete the transition, you will both be ready to have the children you want, without having to feel that you are sacrificing your SRS for the children, or that your SRS will mean that the children are being somehow deprived.

Private adoption of a healthy white infant is usually very expensive, and even though you might pay thousands - the birth mother, by law, gets nothing, except maybe some prenatal care.

Meanwhile, there are often thousands of children, some a bit older, different races, and some with health issues, who need your loving care so much more, and in many cases the state would even pay you to care for them or even adopt them.

The surrogate option is also good, but is often only slightly different from adoption. Especially if you don't maintain regular and constant contact with the surrogate while she's carrying. And she always has the right to change her mind even at the last minute - and give you your money back so you can start over.

[RachR]

As Debbie mentioned a child is a long-term financial commitment. It's not a matter of just saving up to have a family, rather it's maintaining an income to support the family. With both of you being trans there is an understanding when it comes to saving money for SRS, but budget as you may, with the bills a child can bring, it may not be possible to save a significant amount of money every month towards surgery. Also, the psychological impact of waiting for SRS even longer will likely influence your abilities as a parent; you already know what waiting is doing to you.
I'm probably alone in this, but there's no way I could watch my boyfriend grow with child and not resent him for putting off my own needs (even with the decision of having a child being mutual and 100% agreed upon). No way could I raise a child and not resent them for the same reason. I guess that makes me extremely selfish, but I wouldn't want an additional constant reminder of why I can't be whole.

[Bree-asaurus]

L.O.L.

Soooo funny. I was not gonna be snarky in the Breesters thread cuz it seemed like a serious topic that didn't need any smarty pants remarks.

It's nice to see you back on the board and your new avatar is delish.

It may be a serious thread but there's always room for snarky comments!

I'm probably alone in this, but there's no way I could watch my boyfriend grow with child and not resent him for putting off my own needs (even with the decision of having a child being mutual and 100% agreed upon). No way could I raise a child and not resent them for the same reason. I guess that makes me extremely selfish, but I wouldn't want an additional constant reminder of why I can't be whole.

Whatever we do, it's going to be because it's the best for both of us. If we go the direction of making a decision that one of us isn't happy with, we might have to reconsider the future of our relationship. I don't want to hold him back from what he wants and he doesn't want to hold me back from what I want.

---

I've still got plenty of time to think about it... and this is why I brought it up in the first place. I'm wondering if I'm being totally honest with myself when I say I want kids first... I also would like to get SRS done with so I can enjoy life as my 100% self for a while before I settle down and my life becomes all about the kids.

I REALLY want to start a family... even though my life as I know it will end. I just... wish I didn't have to choose between an expensive surgery and a family. I'm kind of afraid of not being able to adopt due to ignorance and hatred towards trans people. If a cisgendered couple wants to adopt, they have to jump through hoops... gay people still get tons of discrimination and a transsexual couple? We are going to get sooo much bias against us. If we run out my boyfriend's biological clock and then can't adopt.... we may never have a family...

I... just don't know...

[Chickhe]

Having some experience as a parent and not knowing if we could have a kid, I would say... if you feel like your life would not be whole witout a family then, get the ball rolling... I would also consider that when it comes to raising the kid, in the first 10 years or so, its almost a social need for the parents to bond with some of the other parents so you need to be in a comfortable place there... so you can feel comfortable in the mother roll... get that all taken care of because there will not be time after the kid comes... you need to be grounded enough to set a role model for your kid. No parent is perfect, but doing a transition and kid would be like two full time jobs.

[Kate T]

Don't worry Bree. Whatever decision you make, whatever path you take in conjunction with your partner it will be the right one. You are a lovely person, and I think you would be a fantastic parent, however and whenever that happens.

[AudreyTN]

I say a new vagina. if you introduce kids, there will always be unexpected expenses that pop up that keep you from getting your SRS. finish one thing, before you start the next my dear. You have your whole life ahead of you to do the raising kids thing.

[Raquel June]

A happy Bree = a happy family

That's the way I see it.

Yeah, and my concern from the first post was that Bree was sort of hinting that she was being pushed into it when she wasn't ready.

I'm pretty sure Bree is aware of the fact that she has had an orchi and what that means as far as reproduction goes, but I'd like to thank all the captain obvious's out there who have brought it up.

Thank you April! LOL! To everyone who is questioning how this all is going to work... I am not a 5 year old and this has been planned... lol.

Nobody was accusing you of being ignorant of how reproduction works! I was just curious and looking for a little clarification. If you don't want to say whether or not you froze sperm or if you're planning on using a donor or what you're doing, that's fine.

Yes, we are in love.

...

Trust me, I've been in forced relationships. I think it's silly that the immediate assumption is that a transsexual can't be in love if they're in a relationship. Why do I need to prove this to talk about our future?

What do you mean? Who's assuming you can't be in love?

You were asking for advice on family issues without really painting a picture of how the relationship is going. At this point you've said you're in love and you want to get married, and it sounds like things are going pretty well and you're just trying to plan your future. I don't have any reason to doubt you.

I've known a lot of people who just weren't honest with themselves -- who were actually in relationship with guys they pretty much loathed -- and then went and had a baby with him because they had some crazy idea that it would make the relationship better. And obviously it just made it worse.

ANYWAY...

If you'd rather get the SRS first, I just don't see why you shouldn't get the SRS first. Like everybody's saying, you need to be fairly financially stable to have the child in the first place, and the money for SRS is really only going to make a couple months difference. Trying to have the child first just sounds like rushing things.

You sounded like the orchie put you in a better place mentally, and the way you're talking it sounds like SRS would also improve your life. So you should get the SRS first.

If you waited till you had the child to get SRS, then how long would you wait for SRS? Saving money will be harder after the child. And when you have SRS you'll have that recovery period that is much more significant than your orchie, and that's really going to be a lot of stress on your BF having to take care of a baby by himself while you're recovering from SRS. I just think everything would be better to get your SRS recovery out of the way before you start having to take care of a baby.



So many tough things to think about, with your BF basically being prepared to detransition and be off hormones for a year, I guess that deserves a lot of respect. And if he's breastfeeding, then that means being off testosterone for a full two years. And people can really change after they have a baby.

I just know if I was in your position, I would have so much conflict. Obviously it would be a horrible way to look at things, and I would hate myself for it ... but I think I might really resent seeing my BF having my child, feeding my child, and feeling like I couldn't be the mother that he could be. I would resent not being able to experience that, and I would worry that after feeling that that he might not want to be the guy that I used to know. Which would be complete insanity on my part to question "how trans" the guy is. I guess it's basically sexism on my part to not accept that a dad can be just as important a role as a mom.

I'm gonna need a lot more therapy before I have a baby...

In reality, I think trans people appreciate a lot of things more than cis people. I think I would be more at peace and more appreciative of getting the opportunity to be a mom than the average woman. And I'm sure a trans guy would be the best dad ever and never want to take it for granted. You guys will be a beautiful family

But to get back on-topic, I think all you have to really worry about is reducing the stresses, and having SRS first and recovering would make things less stressful.

[Bree-asaurus]

Raquel:

I guess I thought your post was a little more assuming than asking. No worries. I apologize if I was defensive.

But I thought I did clarify the sperm situation... back when I started HRT, I always thought I would be with a GM, and we would just use his sperm since we couldn't use both... so I didn't freeze anything. Then... whadda ya know... the guy I fall in love with has ovaries... lol! So if he stops HRT and his parts resume natural function, my best friend will be the sperm donor. A trans family with a pregnant father and a gay sperm donor... the NEW nuclear family

So many tough things to think about, with your BF basically being prepared to detransition and be off hormones for a year, I guess that deserves a lot of respect. And if he's breastfeeding, then that means being off testosterone for a full two years. And people can really change after they have a baby.

Well... we are hoping I can breast feed. And his sister, who produces more milk than a dairy farm said she'd be happy to pump and build up a stockpile for us. I've been trying to get my BF to see that he may be putting off something very important that he doesn't need to (getting top surgery). He's probably going to get top surgery before getting pregnant... but he's also considering waiting until after incase his chest develops more due to being pregnant (so he doesn't have to get surgery again... and maybe get a tummy tuck while he's at it lol).

I just know if I was in your position, I would have so much conflict. Obviously it would be a horrible way to look at things, and I would hate myself for it ... but I think I might really resent seeing my BF having my child, feeding my child, and feeling like I couldn't be the mother that he could be. I would resent not being able to experience that, and I would worry that after feeling that that he might not want to be the guy that I used to know. Which would be complete insanity on my part to question "how trans" the guy is. I guess it's basically sexism on my part to not accept that a dad can be just as important a role as a mom.

Yeah... I'm kinda... jealous if he can have a baby. I've cried with him on a few occasions because I can't get pregnant. But I lactate now... so I'm hoping that when (if) the baby comes I'll be able to breastfeed and at least have that connection with our child. He said he doesn't care about breast feeding and he would be more than happy (for me) if I could be the one to do it.

He doesn't necessarily want to be pregnant... but he would like a child that is HIS if it's possible... which I totally understand. I just wish I could have the same chance... (haven't had many regrets in life... this is one of them).

I'm gonna need a lot more therapy before I have a baby...

LOL! You and me both...

In reality, I think trans people appreciate a lot of things more than cis people. I think I would be more at peace and more appreciative of getting the opportunity to be a mom than the average woman. And I'm sure a trans guy would be the best dad ever and never want to take it for granted. You guys will be a beautiful family

But to get back on-topic, I think all you have to really worry about is reducing the stresses, and having SRS first and recovering would make things less stressful.

I agree... having a child will be stressful enough. Having to throw trans issues on top of that... oye.

*sigh* thankfully I don't have to figure this all out RIGHT NOW... it's stressing me out enough as it is and it's a couple years down the road...

[Anna Lorree]

You made me laugh, you're asking the same question many of us struggle with, but in a different way: Family vs. Transition, which do you choose? Welcome to your own version of the same hell that so many of us wrestle with! Lucky you...

A couple of points that I have experienced firsthand:

Having to choose between what is best for my family and my own transition is the biggest source of anxiety and frustration in my life. It has often made me feel like I could resent my family for having to choose. Fighting that is a constant struggle, but I do it because I love them.

If you decide you have or really want to have kids, do it when you are young. They take a long time to reach 18, and you are gonna need a lot of energy.

If you wait until you can afford to have kids, you will NEVER have kids.

If you DO have kids, it takes a long time to afford all of the other things you want in life.


I can't tell you what to do, life's a bitch and it only gets harder when you have children depending on you for 100% of their needs. However, it is amazing to watch the crying, wriggling little poop factories turn into really amazing young people. It's also the closest thing to immortality we get on this plane of existence.

Anna

[Miranda-E]

If you are not absolutely happy, your family will have no chance for happiness. It may stay together, but no one will enjoy. Please take of yourselves first. Get your lives straightened out and on track, and then make decisions with what you have available to work with. There are a lot of wonderful children out there waiting for the right person to love them.

Barbara

this is the blunt truth. you may hold out for what could be, or you can continue on and be happy.
I won't sugar coat the adoption thing, its going to be a hard road. Just the custody battle for my step son after my marriage was a 18 month court nightmare and my husband is the biological father.

Edit: nothing was off topic

[Beth-Lock]

... a child is a long-term financial commitment. ... budget as you may, with the bills a child can bring, it may not be possible to save a significant amount of money every month towards surgery.

The old-fashioned, responsible thing is to make sure that you and your partner, (despite the financial penalties of being trans, for example), have a substantial enough income to raise a child in circumstances better than poverty. I am surprised that no one has pointed that out. I never had children, firstly, because I never had a decent enough, secure income, at any point in my life, though I was never on welfare, unemployment, or a disability pension. First thing is to get the financial thing taken care of, which should include not just decent jobs, but substantial savings in the bank, which would mean you have a real and immediate choice as to whether to put that money into SRS, or anything else.

[Bree-asaurus]

The old-fashioned, responsible thing is to make sure that you and your partner, (despite the financial penalties of being trans, for example), have a substantial enough income to raise a child in circumstances better than poverty. I am surprised that no one has pointed that out. I never had children, firstly, because I never had a decent enough, secure income, at any point in my life, though I was never on welfare, unemployment, or a disability pension. First thing is to get the financial thing taken care of, which should include not just decent jobs, but substantial savings in the bank, which would mean you have a real and immediate choice as to whether to put that money into SRS, or anything else.

I think you missed a few posts. You know... the ones where I said nothing is happening until we have better jobs and are stable... that this is a few years down the road... And what do taxpayer's have to do with anything? I'm self sufficient and haven't implied otherwise.

[Nicole Erin]

I might get verbally sodomized for asking this question but -
With the whole wanting to transition and have this family etc, are you sure you are not just daydreaming of some kind of "ideal, normal" life?

Suppose all does go according to plans. You both transition, are financially stable, etc...
Sooner or later the kid(s) will go to school and the problem is - kids DO get teased if they have a parent who is GLBT.
I mean the only way you could avoid that is either home schooling or if the kids or anyone else didn't know you and your SO were TS. If any kid knows, they will talk. They talk about "acceptance" and all that crap but it is a whole nuther ballgame when we are talking about how your kid's friends will treat them.

Also with kids in general, you have no clue what raising kids is like (unless you have actually raised your own, full time). Sure one expects the late night crying when they are hungry/want to play/need diaper change but that is just the beginning. These days kids go to school and the schools are REAL quick to want to label kids as having learning disabilities. The words Autism, Asperbers, ADD, ADHD etc get tossed around very liberally. So then they want to get psychs involved, put the kids on meds to prevent them from acting like, well, kids.

Before i had a kid, I imagined it to be like "leave it to beaver" where sometimes my kid might mess up, I would calmly talk to him, he would understand, hugs would be exchanged and the world was happy. OoOoOhHhHh no! Kids talk back, make the SAME mistakes repeatedly, piss off the neighbors, etc...

Having kids is NO ray of sunshine. it is a nightmare that you cannot begin to imagine til you do it.

[Bree-asaurus]

I might get verbally sodomized for asking this question but -

Yeah... prepare yourself... lol

With the whole wanting to transition and have this family etc, are you sure you are not just daydreaming of some kind of "ideal, normal" life?

Umm... yeah... no. If I wanted a normal life, I wouldn't be moving out into the middle of bum-**** nowhere, on a ranch with all kinds of animals and attempting to live a self-sustaining lifestyle. I'm not normal by any means and I don't plan to be. I am QUITE happy being on the fringe of everyday people. And you know what? I make friends really easily with who I am and I'm not about to change who I am to simply fit in.

I've wanted kids for a long time. I have two nephews that I adore and a non-blood niece that I miss horribly after that 'family' decided I was too trans for them. Other people's kids are always easier and I'm aware of that. Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile (hrmm... that seems kind of familiar...).

Suppose all does go according to plans. You both transition, are financially stable, etc...
Sooner or later the kid(s) will go to school and the problem is - kids DO get teased if they have a parent who is GLBT.
I mean the only way you could avoid that is either home schooling or if the kids or anyone else didn't know you and your SO were TS. If any kid knows, they will talk. They talk about "acceptance" and all that crap but it is a whole nuther ballgame when we are talking about how your kid's friends will treat them.

Yeah... so let's tell all gays, lesbians and trans couples to not have kids. Oh, and if our kid shows any kind of deficiencies when he's young, we'll just trade him up for a stronger, smarter, more handsome boy (can't have a girl... that would be even worse, right?!) so he won't get bullied for the myriad of other reasons children pick on each other. Heck! Maybe we can raise our bad*** kid to be a bully so we don't have to worry about him getting picked on!

Also with kids in general, you have no clue what raising kids is like (unless you have actually raised your own, full time). Sure one expects the late night crying when they are hungry/want to play/need diaper change but that is just the beginning. These days kids go to school and the schools are REAL quick to want to label kids as having learning disabilities. The words Autism, Asperbers, ADD, ADHD etc get tossed around very liberally. So then they want to get psychs involved, put the kids on meds to prevent them from acting like, well, kids.

Before i had a kid, I imagined it to be like "leave it to beaver" where sometimes my kid might mess up, I would calmly talk to him, he would understand, hugs would be exchanged and the world was happy. OoOoOhHhHh no! Kids talk back, make the SAME mistakes repeatedly, piss off the neighbors, etc...

Having kids is NO ray of sunshine. it is a nightmare that you cannot begin to imagine til you do it.

To bring back a term from the '90s... DUH

[kimdl93]

For the record, no one is issued a parenting manual. The best thing for a kid is to have a parent or parents that love them. Everything else will fall into place after that. Sure, you need to be able to provide, in addition to the basics of food/clothing/shelter, a sense of direction and reasonable boundaries that adjust as a child grows older. There are more and more "unconventional" couples raising kids all the time. Maybe some neanderthals will find out and tease your child, as I'm sure has happened to many others, but the key is to instill enough self-esteem in the child that they can deal with the many adversities (real and imagined) that come along with growing up.

And I've had a hand in raising four kids...two sons, and two stepdaughters. Despite all the kids having to contend with broken marriages...and the knowledge that dad is a cross dresser....they have all grown into really great, talented, out-going, friendly and professionally successful people. They were, and remain a source of light and happiness in my life.

[kellycan27]

Bree
I totally get where you're coming from. I too adore children and always dreamed of having a family. Our target date was also 3 years from the time we got married. 7 months after we got married we suddenly found ourselves the care takers of not one but two kids, aged four and one. After caring for these two for 6 months their father ( lifer in the military) surrendered his parental rights, and allowed us to legally adopt them. ( really long story ) Just about every friend I have thought we were crazy for taking on such a responsibility. We practically had zero experience in child rearing, but... what new parent does? This month will be our one year anniversary having these kids. Yup they're an expense, and they do disrupt practically every aspect of our lives, but you adapt the best you can. I wouldn't trade being a mom for all the tea in China.
That being said and getting back to your question of having kids or SRS first.. There are a couple of reasons that I personally would suggest SRS first. Reason number one being that you might be in a better place emotionally. I think that having to deal with transition "and" child rearing at the same time could exact a very heavy toll on you "and" your relationship with you SO. It's a hard life as you already know, why stack the deck?
Secondly, and I haven't seen this mentioned yet. SRS is a real game changer. I have seen mind sets and priorities change after someone has had SRS and I have seen what seemed to be good relationships tank. Once the mind and body are congruent things can change..... Just something to think about. That being said.. I know what it's like want to be a mom and I hope that you are able to fulfill that dream of yours.

Kel

[Laurie Ann]

Bree the main theme I see is if mama ain't happy nobody is happy. I waited until I was in my fifties to begin my transition because I wanted our children grown and living useful lives mission accomoshed. The price I paid was too great for me to bear attempted suicide and also was not a very happy camper in hindsight I should have started 20 years ago. I was totally unaware that I was not a perverted freak I impacted too many lives to the negative so I believe you need to take care of your deepest need first before anything on that list is touched

[Kaz]

OK... I know we are all obsessed with ourselves.. and Bree I love you to bits for all the right reasons BUT... I have three daughters... bringing these chicks up has been amazingly demanding... are you really up for this. They are not ornaments, trophies, 'must haves'... they are people... and this needs to thought through... even if they are adopted... This is a life commitment and believe me it changes your life forever. SRS or Kids?

I can see the humour in there, but I can also see the potential pain. For you it doesn't matter physically... after an orchie, your offspring will be getting someone else's genes not yours... the difference then is between adoption and your partners desire to be a physical mum (as in 50% of the genes are hers)... and she/he may want to go through the experience before the change?

Hmmm life choices! There is a risk that she will give birth and want to stay a mum and not transition... but I have no idea on the statistics on that. Just my thought I guess... Strange things happen to women in childbirth... their perspectives shift... for all the right reasons!

Kel... spot on!

[Bree-asaurus]

OK... I know we are all obsessed with ourselves.. and Bree I love you to bits for all the right reasons BUT... I have three daughters... bringing these chicks up has been amazingly demanding... are you really up for this. They are not ornaments, trophies, 'must haves'... they are people... and this needs to thought through... even if they are adopted... This is a life commitment and believe me it changes your life forever. SRS or Kids?

It's not SRS OR kids... it's which is higher priority for me to want first in my life. Trophies? Commitments? Did you read my previous replies? lol...

I can see the humour in there, but I can also see the potential pain. For you it doesn't matter physically... after an orchie, your offspring will be getting someone else's genes not yours... the difference then is between adoption and your partners desire to be a physical mum (as in 50% of the genes are hers)... and she/he may want to go through the experience before the change?

HIS! HIS! HIS! He's been on Testosterone and full-time for a couple years.

Hmmm life choices! There is a risk that she will give birth and want to stay a mum and not transition... but I have no idea on the statistics on that. Just my thought I guess... Strange things happen to women in childbirth... their perspectives shift... for all the right reasons!

I... don't think so... lol. And again... HE... not she.

Kel... spot on!

That, I can agree with!

[Maddie22]

I thought I might point out two points that people have not brought up:

A.) I have seen articles that it could be possible in the future that a trans-woman could actually carry a child. There are limited studies and research as well as a couple of different methods that may work. One is the use of stem cells. I don't know how reliable these articles are (just did a quick google search and got this link, but have seen other articles besides this one) but it may be something to consider.

http://www.secondtype.info/pregnant.htm

B.) The one thing that I've always feared in regards to medical help in pregnancy (doesn't matter if it's cis gender with artificial insemination, or egg donors, etc...) is the limited amount of studies there are in regards to higher risks of complications with the child. When I googled for the above point I did see this article pretaining to a trans-man's pregnancy.

http://www.secondtype.info/pregnant....4528852&page=1

I don't want to cause any controversy here by bringing these two points up. Just additional information to think about, and to ask questions to medical professionals when ever the time is appropriate.

[Nicole Erin]

Bree, I will say I was married and we had a kid of course my marriage turned out bad. So in that aspect, I am kind of biased against marriage and having kids.

I think if you two DO have kids, it may well turn out better than a lot of straight/normal couples cause for you two it will be a bigger battle to have kids on count of your orchi and your SO's HRT and being a trans man...
Most babies come from a GG and GM messing around carelessly. Since you two would have to more carefully plan for this, perhaps it will be more rewarding.

But yeah it still stands though that when you have kids (being ANY type of family) thw whole damned world acts like you are a bad parent and the school system, being the pricks they are, are just OUT to label kids with the latest watered down term for "down's syndrome". I have a theory as to why they are doing this today - People with disabilities can be paid LESS than minimum wage so they are probably trying to prepare the new generation to be slaves worse than even OUR generation.
BUT that has nothing to do with "SRS or Family".

SRS is small compared to raising kids so I say go for that first. Not that I have had it but even so, I know it has to be less a big deal than raising a kid.

[Bree-asaurus]

But yeah it still stands though that when you have kids (being ANY type of family) thw whole damned world acts like you are a bad parent and the school system, being the pricks they are, are just OUT to label kids with the latest watered down term for "down's syndrome". I have a theory as to why they are doing this today - People with disabilities can be paid LESS than minimum wage so they are probably trying to prepare the new generation to be slaves worse than even OUR generation.

Yeah... not looking forward to all that stuff... and everyone else knowing the 'proper' way to parent... "That's not how I discipline MYYYY kids..." "OMG, do they even HAVE manners?" "Blah blah blah I'm a better parent than you BS"

[Elizabeth]

Hi Bree,

You want easy, magical answer? Try this. You can't love anyone else, until you love yourself. And, it is not selfish to put your needs before your boyfriends. You don't have the same reasons for waiting that he does. It does no one any good if you wait just because he has to wait. This is not a dress rehearsal, you only get to live once. No do overs. Get happy before you have a child. Both of you.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Tamara Croft]

<Admin Posting>

I'm going to say this only once, anymore posts in this thread get deleted by any member of staff for any reason and I really don't care what it is, this thread will be locked. I am sick to death of the childish behaviour in this section!! Call yourself grown women??? my 4 yr old granddaughter is more of an adult than half of you are acting. Sharon is AWOL, Reine is trying her best to mod this section, but you are giving her a bloody headache, so you can either knock it off, or you'll find not only this thread locked up, this whole section will become read only!!

</Admin Posting>

[Raquel June]

I might get verbally sodomized for asking this question but -
With the whole wanting to transition and have this family etc, are you sure you are not just daydreaming of some kind of "ideal, normal" life?

These are totally valid concerns. The problem is, if you follow that rationale then it's essentially child abuse for minorities or any marginalized group to procreate. And that's probably not the way you should think.

If you raise your kids to be good people and they are friends with good people, it's not going to make their life more difficult to be part of a LGBT family.

For awhile, I had a pretty awesome family. My partner ended up showing that she was a horrible person. But her kids were awesome and more accepting than anybody. And their friends were nice to me, too.