You have to work with and embrace the big one in the GLBT fight. the big G, the gays, the ones actually doing the work. keep distancing your self from that and fighting those causes and it doesn't matter if you're cd/tg there is no winning in the rights fight.
I get your idea on this, I truly do. But in retrospect, while some (CD's) identify as being gay or bi, it seems the majority of us are hetrosexual. If we side with the GLBT, then we're ultimately saying we're something we've been fighting years to say were not.Originally Posted by Miranda-E
Meaning, the general public are back to thinknig we're all gay but like to wear women's clothes...
~ it's not how the world sees you but how you see yourself that counts ~
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Nice THEORY, Marleena, but I don't think it's practical! Personality differences, u know?
Last edited by Nigella; 07-21-2012 at 03:49 PM. Reason: sorry but the edited comment is too inflamatory
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
[SIZE="2"]I’m a lover, not a fighter. If it comes to open conflict, you can count me out, but I might be retained in an advisory position! Who are we going to war with? I think we’re outnumbered…
Looking around, splintering seems to be the order of the day, and CD’s are WAY out there, orbiting somewhere near the rim of the “umbrella.” We’re all different, so how can we possibly agree on anything? I mean, the effeminate crossdressers will clash with crossdressers who retain their male bluster at all costs, the ones who crossdress for sexual pleasure will clash with those who CD for tactile pleasure, the “I don’t care what they think” types will clash with the closeted, shy types, and the repressed, sad, under-her-thumb MtF’s will clash with the happy, contented MtF’s who are blissfully unattached. I think this is beautiful, and not a problem to overcome – trying to do so negates natural, inherent human feelings based on survival instincts, not to mention individuality. Maybe we’re in the midst of an evolutionary revolution in regards to how we define ourselves, and maybe not. Meanwhile, splintering only creates more kindling for the fires (the flames) that keep us all cozy and warm, and it goes without saying that we need a reason to live. Can humans ever distance themselves from conflict? I try to do my part by supporting the” community” via sympathetic words…
One more thing – some crossdressers like to write, and some crossdressers hate to read…[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]It IS a paradox, isn’t it? Heterosexual MtF crossdressers are, by definition, grouped in with “T” for better or worse. It’s a convenient explanation for those who don’t look too far into things – he dresses up because he has homosexual tendencies, or a repressed female “self” that needs to come out to play. Cute. No one ever mentions that sensibilities are either more or less acute, or on display, in certain individuals, and some people can FEEL things that others cannot. In such a situation, crossdressing can be seen as a type of sensory exploration that implies gender experimentation, but, at the present time, you MUST be gay if you enjoy tactile sensation, or color, or anything delicate and beautiful. Under these precepts, I will gladly declare myself to be GAY and duck under the TG umbrella. I don’t wish to be out there, where there is no color, no delicacy, no feeling, and no beauty. The world wants me, a male, to get serious, but I only answer to myself…
[/SIZE]
We can argue all we want among ourselves, but you are right Marleena and we have to put on a united front to the cis/straight world.
Pardon my jaded attitude but rights are protected by laws and politicians write and pass laws. To get most politician's attention, you either need money (to donate) or numbers (voters). Unless Bill Gates is one of us and wants to start writing checks, we need to have enough numbers to make it worth the politician's while to do this. TS alone are not enough, CD alone are not enough, and until a lot more people are willing to come out of the closet, at least when it comes to supporting trans rights, even the the whole transgender community might not be enough. We really need to work with the LGB community, to use the infrastructure that they created, to bring the trans community up to their level of acceptance.
"We all hang together or we all hang separately!"
Debby
Here we go! I have as much in common with the gay community as I do with feminists. I have no problem with their chosen take on life and how that affects/decides their lifestyle options. But I am not gay and I am not a GG feminist (though I might well support the majority of the beliefs of yet another diverse group)...
The GLBT 'community' is strange one and one that I do not feel comfortable with other than appreciating the need for campaigning etc... one of my biggest problems is that the public portrayal of CD in this community is not one that I am comfortable with and therefore something I feel difficult to embrace other than another human rights thing that I will support but not feel part of.
It is all about what community is what? Most trangendered people I guess would not think of themselves as gay, bisexual or lesbian... as these terms refer to a sexual orientation within the bounds of one's own natural gender. TG/CD is very different. Many are heterosexual and it wouldn't surprise me to find that the gay/lesbian/bi/hetero distribution is the same as the genetral population. If it is... then there would be no statistically significant link between CD/TG and the GBL community.
We are there as a convenient 'add-on'. Does it help us? Some will say yes, but I am of the view that this association just increases and reinforces the general public's view that CDs are all gay, but more than that... they are also weird! My wife accepts gays and lesbians... but CDs? No... we are just weird, and by the way we must be gay because we are part of the GBLT community. We are just on the weird end of the gay brigade.
I honestly think that we are different, but we are still a heterogenous community with many sub-strata. One day it would be great to be able to understand this gender dysphoria issue without all the trappings of things that it isn't.
For me... CDs... we like to dress in clothes of the opposite natural gender. Our reasons for doing this and how we do it differ across a whole broad spectrum, from guys in frocks to GRS and beyond... This is my community...
Kaz xx
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This Woman Within is Flying without Wings
Dead right Deb. It is a pretty hostile world out there. With, sadly, far too many politicians and demagogues who would be quite happy to throw a sub-group of society under the wheels if it would earn them some votes.
We are a pretty small and visible group. Easy targets if you like. Frankly we could all get in real legal trouble in a flash if someone in power decided to turn a screw. I'm reminded of Tasmania, where it is still illegal for a male to wear women's clothes. Now these days they don't actually apply it, but that could change in a flash.
Sadly we now live in a world of 'power politics', not of rights and justice. So if you don't have some political clout you are at risk all the time.
I personally hate the fragmentation I see at times in the Trans community, the fact is that we all have the the same common interests in terms of rights and justice. So whatever small nit picking we may have between ourselves in some areas, they always have to be put aside for the common good.
Hi Deb,
I am kind of disagreeing with you but not quite! Yes we need a bigger voice, maybe, but we need to very careful about how that voice is heard.
In this little old country of mine we have a coalition government. A small outfit called the Liberal Democrats wanted a bigger voice and saw an opportunity in a hung vote to get into bed with the Conservatives (Tories)... they are probably destined for extinction as everything they stand for gets drowned out by the Big Bad Wolf, who has no interest in their views, just their votes.... Not many take them seriously anymore...
Kaz xx
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This Woman Within is Flying without Wings
In my town we have a fairness oradinance for TG/gay people, equal treatment and rights under the law and its fabulous.If you get pulled over when driving enfemme the police treat you as you present.You can go anywhere you like and be fine. Just be wise where you go like always common sense girls.Stay out of the rough places,just because you can doesn't make it a good idea.
If it wasn't for being under a part of the GLBT umbrella I don't think that ordinance would have passed.
Having an openly gay mayor I'm sure helped a lot.He's a great guy.
This ordinance helps in having fair treatment on the job too.
Try to get a fairness ordinance past wherever you live if you can its a great thing.
Last edited by Tracii G; 07-21-2012 at 05:31 PM.
One size doesn't always fit all, that's especially true (IMO) regarding the forming an alliance with the LGBT. Fundimentally this movement is about identifying as "gay" or "lesbian", it's sexual preference - being attracted to the same sex.
We've got people coming out to their SO's etc...etc and one of the first questions is, are you gay?
It's going to be nonsensical to most SO's if we take an about face, join something we are not, yet believe we can maintain our own sexual identies. If anything, we're just more numbers, and you know how people get treated when they go from being a person to a number, hey!
Added: I'm not dishing the LGBT, they're a good, strong group who are need to change things. I just don't think in the long run it will do us any favours... If anything it will create another drama altogether, some thing that's likely to take another heap of time to change.
People like Jesscia Who? Seem to be doing a great job ad educating ppl, why can't we stick with something like this and grow from that?
Last edited by Rebecca Star; 07-21-2012 at 05:42 PM. Reason: Added:
~ it's not how the world sees you but how you see yourself that counts ~
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No problem.
I do think there are significant differences between the LGB and the T community and we certainly have different experiences in the trans community but I do think we need (in the States) to be pragmatic about getting stuff done. I really am a cheerleader for consensus building and unity. My experience in a number of arenas is that just because something is the right thing to do doesn't mean that it will get done. Our political system (as it currently stands) just doesn't encourage that (sadly)
Deb
Debby
The general public needs to know there is a rich diversity in non-fetishistic gender identity and sexual preference. Everyone outside the LGBTQ community is straight cisgender. Within the LGBTQ community, the non-transitioning "T"s are pretty silent, the transitioning "T"s are a bit more visible, the transitioned "Ts" by virtue of their transition live mostly cisgendered stealth lives. The "G"s, "L"s, and "B"s are mostly cisgender too (not so much the "Q"s maybe, but we don't hear much from them either), and until the non-transitioners and the "Q"s make themselves more visible, John Q Public with continue to conflate gender ID and presentation with sexual preference and they will continue to look at it all in black and white.
I don't think there are enough visible non-transitioning "T"s to form a strong movement of their own so until then I see a choice only between continuing to be completely underground, or being on the fringe of the LGBTQ community.
As for the purely fetish CDers, there have been many threads where they rightfully proclaim themselves to be men who have a fetish, and it is debatable as to whether they should be considered part of the "T". I'm referring here to the truly pure sexual fetishists, not the CDers who believe it is only fetish, but who get a lot of personal, non-sexual satisfaction out of being feminine (as defined by current cultural norms). Anyway, there are also people who form part of the BDSM and Fetish community and it makes more sense that any pure sexual fetishists whether they CD or not, should identify with this community rather than the "T" part of the LGBTQ (since they don't identify as transgender) ... although they certainly are most welcome to participate in this forum! (as long as they behave)
Last edited by ReineD; 07-21-2012 at 05:51 PM.
Reine
Marleena, "Some of us fight this designation for whatever reason. It's what they want. As splinter groups we are easier to conquer. Wars are won while we fight amongst ourselves. History proves that. I say we stick together."
Who EXACTLY are the "they" "we" are at war with?
Kelly they are the politicians and the general public. It's not a war in the usual sense but a battle to get acceptance and tolerance and to be treated equally and with respect.
I am not following the War metaphor. In what sense are the politicians an the general public trying to conquer us? Which politicians?
The T in LGBT stands for transgender.
I love that bunch here they support us and we support them.A very good alliance IMO.
LGBT here is strong and they do a fine job making the TG issues be recognized and dealt with fairly.
Last edited by Tracii G; 07-21-2012 at 06:29 PM.
Ignore the war metaphor then Kelly. Think of the different groups on this board and the infighting. Once it reaches a certain point nothing can be accomplished.
How about the discontinuity effect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discontinuity_effect Maybe that will make more sense.
Marleena, Please excuse my naivety. I am new here.
I am for continuing to be part of the larger umbrella group of LGBT and supporting each other in our needs. It always makes me shake my head a bit when I hear from the "T" side that they do not want to be associated with gays and lesbians. It sounds like they are worried about catching that dreaded LGB cootie that may cause them to cross that line and "Whatever will Ruth and the neighbors think?"! I am out all the time, and yes, many times the strangers I am talking about get around to asking if I am gay or not. It takes me nothing to kindly and directly say that I am not gay and their thought is incorrect. I do not go away thinking bad about myself, but rather proud that I took advantage of the opportunity to clarify who I am and who most of my fellow MtF CD's are, not gay. I don't shout it and wave my arms, just give them that nice explanation with a smile, and then continue on in normally extensive conversations.
Now, if all those worried about being tainted with the gay logo as part of LGBT want to start their own splinter group and take the lead and actually do something constructive, then I might listen more closely to what you have to say. However, I believe that most of you naysayers are just like me. I do not want to grab the flag and lead the parade. I am more than happy to be on the sidelines, vote and voice my opinion about all this when I can. Will you who say no I do not want to be part of LGBT be willing to carry that flag, since there are so few of you? Who will carry that flag if not you? Yeah, I know someone else.
As has been stated here so many times before on this same topic, there is just no critical mass available to the "T" part to really get anywhere, especially if you consider how many are in the closet or as Reine said, going stealth. What we do need is strong and intelligent participation in the overall LGBT movement to make sure that our voices are heard and that our specific needs are met.
Not a problem, I'm easy to get along with. You'll see things clearer after you're here for a while. The TG spectrum is compromised of many different groups from CD to TS.
Simple version: if all groups work together things can be accomplished to make life better for us. The LBG community has been working hard to integrate into society. It's done through changing laws and having a voice to point out injustices and achieve equality with the heterosexual world. The transgender grouping has lots to do still.
Discontinuity is a source of problems on all boards like this and within the TG community itself. It's present in TG/TS groups too.
Last edited by Marleena; 07-21-2012 at 07:22 PM. Reason: correction
Therein lies the conundrum. The LGBT movement does not truly represent the non-transitioning "T"s but instead can create problems in achieving understanding and acceptance by an apparent confirming of the gay stereotype. Rebecca Star and Frederique have covered this point quite eloquently. Also, the use of the term transgender by the media indicates a complete lack of understanding of the totality and diversity of the community. It tends to imply that we are all the same, and that image is not the one that many crossdressers are attempting to show to those to whom they may want to reveal themselves. That incorrect image tends to get reinforced by the umbrella concept. The non-visible portion of the community, in all likelihood, form a quite sizable population, but do not feel that they are represented by the LGBT movement but instead are kept more closeted by its impact on general opinons.
That completely distorts and belittles the concerns of those who hold that viewpoint.
Many have no desire to be proactive about any issue, but simply do not want other activists imposing their ideals and agenda upon them.
Veronica
I agree with a lot of what Veronica said. The gay friends that I have really don't relate to crossdressers at all, they are just more tolerant of different behavior and the T most certainly is for transexuals, not transgendered in the borader sense. We are kind of on an island, regardless of how hard we may try to relate we're just not thought of the same as those who are truly tansitioning or in the process of transitioning. But we can hide and they can't, so maybe that makes it even.
You are right Veronica about people not wanting to be proactive, and that is why I said that we should be part of the bigger group to get to that critical mass. No one to raise the flag and do something positive means the separatists concept of "T only" probably will not work if not enough active people are there to make a difference. I am not saying that we don't have different needs in some areas. We also have similar needs to the whole organization. Heck, reading the in-fighting that exists in the TS section as to when someone is a woman, or how everybody is different in the "T" part, and why do TS's need to be lumped in with CD's, makes one wonder if a "T" only group can even function all by itself for all of the internal bickering. And then you have the CD's who do not want to be included under the transgender term.
I am not trying to belittle anyone. Many people here want nothing to do with that label, and that really makes me wonder why. It is like a dirty word where they are concerned. This is what I have seen here for the last 5+ years. Being called gay is no different than being called American, Jewish, blue collar, conservative, or whatever. Being called or associated with something does not mean that one is that. One needs to learn how to tell people they are wrong when they are wrong. What is bad about being mistaken for gay? Are people ashamed by that? If they are, why? Do they not know how to deal with a mis-labeling when an explanation would clear it all up? I am not talking about something associated with getting a job or promotion. I am talking about people here that do not want the "T" associated with the LGB and I truly do not see nor understand their concerns except for associating that label with something negative about themselves. Why should it be considered negative?
RebeccaStar said above "We've got people coming out to their SO's etc...etc and one of the first questions is, are you gay? It's going to be nonsensical to most SO's if we take an about face, join something we are not, yet believe we can maintain our own sexual identifies." Why would it be non-sensical to the SO when the "T"person wants to support a valid organization fighting for a lot of disadvantaged people's civil rights? I get from that comment that for that SO one can only support a group like that if one is a true practicing member? Where would the black civil rights movement gone if whites and others did not join in to support them? I can see the SO maybe initially wondering, but people have to use their communication skills to clear that matter up. If that relationship is so fragile, I think that they would probably have future problems together anyway. I guess I just do not see the logic in that. I see some fear to be labeled gay and not being able to convince the other they are not and will not "turn" gay. Is that why? The last I heard is that one is born gay and not converted along the way. It is call educating the uneducated, which does take some patience, tolerance and effort.
"What we do need is strong and intelligent participation in the overall LGBT movement to make sure that our voices are heard and that our specific needs are met. "
Allie, I have a couple more naive but non-trivial questions;
Who is supposed to hear "our voices"? And what are "our specific needs"? Anyone who has the responsibility for meeting "our" "needs" must have commensurate authority.
I am a CD who goes out a lot, so my needs are probably the same for most going out of the house CD's and include having the necessary protections while out, ability to use the restroom that we are presenting as, freedom from harassment, to be treated as any other person when out shopping, dining, and doing everyday activities. I am not working, but being treated fairly at work, not necessarily being allowed to dress as the opposite gender at work (I don't have a strong opinion on that one yet), non-discrimination, etc. I can't think of all of the benefits right now that we need overall. For me the recipients of our messages is probably first the politicians who can establish the clear legal rights in laws, legislation and whatever. Then it could be the news media to properly report on us, our issues, needs, and present it in a factual, non humorous or cutting way. Then the general public, employers, service providers. I believe that a lot of the general negative reactions that some people get while out dressed is due to the fact that the general public is uneducated as to what a transgender is and that we are humans and have rights too. We are a varied lot and sometimes it is hard to truly define us in a way that includes most of us and how we present, act and just are.
Since I am not an activist and I am just me living my life doing what I like and enjoy, I am not that well versed in all the issues facing our community. I sometimes think that what I do while out is like an ambassador by meeting, talking, asking and answering questions about them and about me and my lifestyle. The other parts of out "T" spectrum members may have other more specific and pressing needs. A TS enters the realm of legal rights to employment, transitioning at work, decent medical coverage, marriage and the corresponding family legal issues, inheritance, participation in medical decisions, and even just getting medical status of an ill partner.
I hope that answers your questions.
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