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Thread: A few questions about GLBT

  1. #1
    Complex Lolita...
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    A few questions about GLBT

    [SIZE="2"]Since, according to some, ALL MtF crossdressers are transgendered, we are associated with the GLBT community, the “T” standing for transgendered, I assume. In a broad sense, any person who transits the alleged distance between M and F is TG by definition, and I am using that modern label in this post even though I do not consider myself to be transgendered. For all of you staunch supporters of GLBT, I have a few questions. Here goes...

    On TV tonight I heard a woman say “I support the LGBT community.” Is this because she’s a woman, and lesbians come first in the same-sex hierarchy (in her mind)? Are there perhaps regional re-orderings of the letters G, L, B, and T according to what has been decided on by the community in a given location? You tell me. Carrying on with this logic, would a bisexual say (or write) BGLT, or maybe BLGT, depending on what your birth gender happened to be? More importantly, is there a pecking order amongst same-sex individuals, or is it more like a game of musical chairs, much like the one we played back in the first grade? If we are to be as politically correct as possible, why assemble these four disparate groups in the first place? Relax, I'm just curious...

    Yet another question – this was alluded to in another thread a few weeks ago. Maybe it was my thread about the lovely word “queer,” which used to be a catch-all term for G, L, B, and T. Tell me – if you’re a heterosexual MtF crossdresser, how can you possibly be part of GLBT? Since “T” is included in the four letters, the implication is that all transgendered behavior comes under the heading of homosexuality. This somehow marginalizes hetero MtF CD’s, and they are thus assumed to be gay, much to the consternation of their wives, SO’s, girlfriends, family members, or associates, distorting the “normal” lives everyone thinks they are living. I know concessions have to be made for political expediency, but I don’t see how heterosexual crossdressers fit into this “community” idea. Politically we don’t exist, so we cannot exist socially, and vice versa...

    Here’s another question I have about GLBT – why is “T” always at the end? Are transgendered individuals the weak sisters or Johnny-come-latelys of the queer universe? Were the TG’s begrudgingly added on at some point because they are traditionally associated with homosexuals in a peripheral sense (case in point: transvestites)? Was it a case of not fitting in anywhere else, so they (we) bonded with the rest of the people that society cannot easily tolerate? Also, is it OK for a TG to say “TGLB,” or “TLGB,” or even “TBLG?” Let’s be fair in a communal sense, and display some consistency, even though it CAN get very confusing, and important issues tend to fall through the cracks as everybody jockeys for position...

    I’m not questioning the accomplishments of same-sex advocacy groups or political movements, but, once again, I feel left out. A man who likes to wear women’s panties to feel good is not the same as a transgendered individual, do you agree? To the world, I belong with GLBT because I’m doing something very queer along the lines of gender, according to the “standard” everyone has agreed upon, but, to me, I’m just wearing the “wrong” clothes to be happy as I remain male. Oh, I might feel warmed by what I term second-hand female sensibilities, but, much like Cinderella, I always revert to drab after playing dress-up. In my case, TG stands for “tiny girl,” since I am beneath nearly everyone’s notice (and contempt). That’s OK, though – I like being small and meek, under a big sky, free of “group” thinking...

    Could there possibly be such a thing as a formal CROSSDRESSING community, or are we much too individualistic to be part of anything like that?

    BTW, I sincerely mean no harm - these things just fascinate me. I KNOW everybody is doing the best they can under unusual circumstances...
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    CamilleLeon's SO Shananigans's Avatar
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    Well, there's actually more letters than that now. There's really two Q's in there for Queer and Questioning...an I for Intersexed...and, an A for Assexual. You could argue that Trans and Intersexed are gender issues, and not sexuality issues. This is completely correct, but this is a group with a lot of members and political power. (As you noted). The people actually IN the group are not confused by these matters.

    I have heard that LGBT started being written as GLBT by gay men in the 1970s, so that "gay" would come first. However, it is also true that it is sometimes a regional thing. Some groups don't even really use either of those acronyms...they sometimes use something different. I usually write LGBQT...it rolls off the tongue better.

    If it really got to be a thing about "which letter should come first" in my regional group, I'd just leave. I don't have time for pissing contests. My regional group that I joined is called "Allies"...so, there are no acronyms needed. In the end, it's a group where we are all supposed to support one another...if it comes down to priority lettering, then it's quite obvious that the original intent of the group has been lost. I've never heard such stupid crap in all of my life. Either way, my group is "Allies"...and, I find it is easier to say. I don't like memorizing letters and letter placement.

    In some areas "allies" refer to straight people that support LGBT. But, it's not really that way in my regional group. There is also a group that calls itself Prism. You have to understand that this is a worldwide organization that really just exists of regional groups that people kind of randomly make. So, if it really means a lot to you that there is a group out there where the T comes first, make a group where the T comes first. But, most groups are getting away from the acronym, because most of the people "in the know" find it really arbitrary and stupid.

    There was a joke about calling it "Non-Standard *******." But, I don't think that will really take off.
    Last edited by Eryn; 07-27-2012 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Sorry, but if you're disguising profanity to get past the filter, you know you shouldn't be using it.
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    Aspiring Member elizabethamy's Avatar
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    We need all the friends we can get! Having said that, I find it an uncomfortable alliance, most particularly because of the misperception (furthered again by the New York Times earlier this week) that being transgendered is really about sexual orientation, or at least about sex. I'm sure L's and G's get tired of having their every opinion and thought viewed through the lens of who they sleep with, but still...with the majority having such a poor understanding of all things transgender, being lumped into a group that is 95% about sexual orientation is problematic at best. We just seem a convenient fit for those who would create "diversity" offices and labels.

    elizabethamy

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    Senior Member Laura912's Avatar
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    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Freddy, I know this "transgender" thing drives you around the bend. You my friend are a CD in the purest sense.

    So.. transgender is added to LGB umbrella so as to add a voice for the transgender community, and protect your rights, that's it. CDers are actually being done a favor by being included in it.

    So if anybody ever calls you transgender you can proudly proclaim you are a crossdresser! It's as simple as that.
    Last edited by Marleena; 07-27-2012 at 03:58 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Member Marlana's Avatar
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    Frederique,
    I look at the letters as a mish-mash. I personally don't care which letter comes first or last. To me, being as my son is under the autism umbrella, I look at it as if LGBT is an umbrella covering each group. You've got your lesbians, the gays, the bi's, and those that have transgendered all under one umbrella looking for support and equal rights. I don't suppose that any one group is big enough to stand on their own without the others. And frankly, as sad as it is to say, the gen.-pop see's it as all gay IMHO.
    I would like to be in a category for CD's, as I don't feel like I'm TG. However, if because I want to look like a woman and feel like a woman, maybe deep down inside I am. I don't know. For this reason, I think I need to see a gender therapist. Does that mean I'm gay? I don't know. But that's who I am so I ride under the LGBT umbrella.
    I don't know if I really gave an answer to your question, but that's my two cents worth. Interesting thread though.

  7. #7
    Joanie sterling12's Avatar
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    Well, if we used the old-fashioned idea of Manners, I would say "ladies first," and it probably ought to be LGBT.

    But, The Movement goes way back to The late Forties with mostly male groups, and I will assume they worked on the idea that "we was here first." As Shenanigans said, it really is unimportant, and since it periodically causes acrimony, I would be in favor of a different Title altogether. I like "Lifeboat," causes that where we all are, (or should be) and if we don't ALL keep rowing and bailing, the folks who wish us harm will certainly sink The Boat!

    The "T" at The End? I guess it rolls off The Tongue better, and there's a tendency to use a letter near the end of The Alphabet, as your last letter in an acronym. I personally could care less, as long as we are "considered" and respected when all The Big-Shots think up strategy and try to influence legislation. I think if we waste time worrying about whose Letter is where, then we shall surely fail and fragment into thousands of little pieces all fighting about Turf Wars.

    To be more "prominent" in The Struggle, we have to participate. And that means ALL of us in The Spectrum of Transgendered. We have to "join" and we have to make our voices heard. If we don't, then we will always be alphabetically, and literally at The End.

    Peace and Love, Joanie
    Last edited by sterling12; 07-27-2012 at 04:34 PM.

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    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    IDK people can call me anything, I don't care. Me ex wife uses words I never heard before.

    If they call me the wrong thing I can just correct them or ignore them.

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    a new organization

    Hitching a ride on someone else's wagon may be taking us to a destination that we don't desire. If we could actually ascertain how many of us exist, here and around the world, perhaps the scope of the membership (is that some kind of transport of a bunch of D***ks) would warrant a new organization dedicated to JUST CDs.

    The Male Alternative Fashion Society of America.

    Sadly, we are and have been associated with the Liberaces of the world and it doesn't look as though we will ever have enough escape velocity to achieve a CD orbit or our own. If the media can't get it right, how can we expect the BOOBUS AMERICANUS to get it right?
    JUST a crossdresser

  10. #10
    Platinum Member Eryn's Avatar
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    I get the order twisted around sometimes too, but nobody seems to worry about it.

    T comes at the end most likely because it was considered after the others.

    I don't mind the T label being applied to me since it has a flexible definition and I don't mind association with the LGB groups either. We face the same challenges to being accepted and it's better to unite to face those challenges than to be divisive.
    Eryn
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    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post

    On TV tonight I heard a woman say “I support the LGBT community.” Is this because she’s a woman, and lesbians come first in the same-sex hierarchy (in her mind)? Are there perhaps regional re-orderings of the letters G, L, B, and T according to what has been decided on by the community in a given location? You tell me. Carrying on with this logic, would a bisexual say (or write) BGLT, or maybe BLGT, depending on what your birth gender happened to be? More importantly, is there a pecking order amongst same-sex individuals, or is it more like a game of musical chairs, much like the one we played back in the first grade? If we are to be as politically correct as possible, why assemble these four disparate groups in the first place? Relax, I'm just curious...
    let's just say it is by "convention". I have seen it as GLBT but that sounds like a sandwich. I doubt that the person you heard has even considered a hierarchy or order.

    if you’re a heterosexual MtF crossdresser, how can you possibly be part of GLBT? Since “T” is included in the four letters, the implication is that all transgendered behavior comes under the heading of homosexuality. This somehow marginalizes hetero MtF CD’s, and they are thus assumed to be gay, much to the consternation of their wives, SO’s, girlfriends, family members, or associates, distorting the “normal” lives everyone thinks they are living. I know concessions have to be made for political expediency, but I don’t see how heterosexual crossdressers fit into this “community” idea. Politically we don’t exist, so we cannot exist socially, and vice versa...
    In a large part of 'merica you could be a raving heterosexual with 900 female partners and because you wear a dress you HAVE to be gay. The only answer to this is education.

    why is “T” always at the end?
    Why are B's considered at all? Bisexuals can flow and function in the "real" world without detection and are not discriminatedagainst unless they do something stupid., but yes the movement started as lesbian and gays, the rest is being added. Personally "we" the transgendered community, really are riding the coattails of the gays and lesbians.

    A man who likes to wear women’s panties to feel good is not the same as a transgendered individual, do you agree?
    Tomato tomahto. I believe the LGBT (QQISTUV) community is more an activist and support complex. Be in or not. I am sort of selfish though, when the community get rights I don't think those who are not on the train should be claiming victory. You will reap the benefits but it is sort of like watching your favorite sports team and giving your buddy a high five when they score. You didn't do it, you watched it.
    To the world, I belong with GLBT because I’m doing something very queer along the lines of gender, according to the “standard” everyone has agreed upon, but, to me, I’m just wearing the “wrong” clothes to be happy as I remain male.
    and yet you are marginalized and degraded in standard life because of it. Better to be part of something than stand alone I think.

    Could there possibly be such a thing as a formal CROSSDRESSING community, or are we much too individualistic to be part of anything like that?
    That is very true. In the majority of instances many people here don't want to be part of the community because, in actuality. they are almost as narrow minded as a majority of society. They don't want to be "part" of the gay community...because...they think being gay is ?????different??? Wrong????? Not normal??? I find that many who rail the hardest have the biggest issue with gays. The biggest concern for their own heterosexuality. Why otherwise would it be a concern?(wonder how many men worried about that when they marched with women 50 years ago? They weren't women so why bother being part of the movement???)

    I don't see being classed as Transgendered is a concern. I kind of like that at least in the beginning the L&G community took us under their wing in the fight for equal rights. Because of the non-committal attitudes of the trans community, the L&G community now often finds us to be the millstone. They would not cry at all if the T community said leave us alone. Why? Because we are still in the "pervert" class (and yes that includes guys, and maybe even MORE so, who just wear women's underwear. Yes as a person who only underdresses what could the worst that could happen? (asked the underdresser in 1935 who would have ended up classed as gay because after all I am sure that the people in charge of Germany thought if you wore panties you HAD to be gay). Meh, it won't happen again right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post


    Could there possibly be such a thing as a formal CROSSDRESSING community, or are we much too individualistic to be part of anything like that?
    I seriously doubt it.
    Individualistic isn't the problem, Its cowardice and the willingness to accept bad treatment in order to remain in hiding at all costs.
    No risk, no change or progress. It will never happen with the current situation and attitudes. Besides when the GLBT community can get a win and include others they are happy to do so, but they will go for the win. Crossdresssers currently have to be happy with the side benefits of all the GLBT work. OR they have to do the work themselves if they want better.
    Last edited by Miranda-E; 07-27-2012 at 04:56 PM.

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    Platinum Member Eryn's Avatar
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    Just as long as we don't lose the Gay contingent. I don't want to be a tomato in the "BLT" community.
    Eryn
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    Member Lainie's Avatar
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    Frederique,

    I also wonder if CDs are really TG--especially me! CD is just an observational fact, can't deny that's what I do. But Transgender is about identification--the way I feel about myself. Some times I feel very girly, other times not at all. So being transgendered seems to vary with time. Sometimes when I'm dressed fully en femme I feel giddy, sometimes just comfortable. Is one of those TG, one just fetish?

    To the extent that there is a community, it must be one that supports individual freedom from gender stereotypes. That would make me an A for "Ally" in LGBTQQIA, even if I weren't T. In current hip usage, my insistence on wearing a skirt and a mustache in public probably makes me Q as well, although I don't like the term "Queer". I don't militantly demand acceptance, but I do gratefully accept tolerance whenever it's offered. Luckily, that's almost always, so far.

    Lainie

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    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryn View Post
    Just as long as we don't lose the Gay contingent. I don't want to be a tomato in the "BLT" community.
    Lol..You just made me hungry too.

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    Titles and divisions

    I self identify as TG because it is actually easier to explain... Some may not agree but that is their privilege. We can each be ourselves in our own way as long as we don't hurt anyone else.

    Besides that, we are all a part of the human race and the continuity of humanity. Obsessing over divisions or definitions such as TG or TS or CD or XX is little different than focusing over divisions of race, religion, ethnic origin, or any number of similar arbitrary categories. We don't have to look at much history to see how "well" those divisions worked for those who pushed for them.

    Can't we all get along and be friendly?
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  18. #18
    Platinum Member Eryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandra1746 View Post
    Can't we all get along and be friendly?
    Sadly, some of us cannot. Some CDing groups are intolerant of gays. The Alpha Chapter of TriEss, the Mother Ship of the entire national organization seems to be pretty much died over this issue. If you look at their website one of the latest (2010) news items concerns the decertification of the Chicago chapter over their decision to accept gay members:

    http://www.alphatriess.org/TriEssNL/member-news6-10.pdf

    I think that policies like these stem from the Bad Old Days when gays were not accepted, so from the point of hetero CDers being associated with them was not a good thing. These days the picture is very different but some organizations cling to their own ways.
    Eryn
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  19. #19
    Member Sophia Claire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    On TV tonight I heard a woman say “I support the LGBT community.” Is this because she’s a woman, and lesbians come first in the same-sex hierarchy (in her mind)? Are there perhaps regional re-orderings of the letters G, L, B, and T according to what has been decided on by the community in a given location? You tell me. Carrying on with this logic, would a bisexual say (or write) BGLT, or maybe BLGT, depending on what your birth gender happened to be? More importantly, is there a pecking order amongst same-sex individuals, or is it more like a game of musical chairs, much like the one we played back in the first grade? If we are to be as politically correct as possible, why assemble these four disparate groups in the first place? Relax, I'm just curious...
    No, LGBT is just the accepted acronym. Kinda rolls off the tongue in a way that the other versions (IMHO) don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    Yet another question – this was alluded to in another thread a few weeks ago. Maybe it was my thread about the lovely word “queer,” which used to be a catch-all term for G, L, B, and T. Tell me – if you’re a heterosexual MtF crossdresser, how can you possibly be part of GLBT? Since “T” is included in the four letters, the implication is that all transgendered behavior comes under the heading of homosexuality. This somehow marginalizes hetero MtF CD’s, and they are thus assumed to be gay, much to the consternation of their wives, SO’s, girlfriends, family members, or associates, distorting the “normal” lives everyone thinks they are living. I know concessions have to be made for political expediency, but I don’t see how heterosexual crossdressers fit into this “community” idea. Politically we don’t exist, so we cannot exist socially, and vice versa...
    As a fellow hetero CD (sort of. I'm a TG with no intention of getting surgery and no attraction to males, but I'm definitely a woman), I was also a bit puzzled and dismayed by this. I think the reason for it is that our lifestyle is considered by the gender normal as weird. So when the first politically correct blanket term (which is an oxymoron, I think) "alternative lifestyle" came out, we quite easily fit into that mold. And we've been generally ignored since then. "What? There are straight crossdressers? Hell, I thought all those guys were gay!" Well, when it became LGBT, we again were subject to stereotyping when they lumped us in with TG/TSs (probably for political expediency, but the effect was to make the gender normal believe that CDs must be gay (which is what my mother thinks).

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    Here’s another question I have about GLBT – why is “T” always at the end? Are transgendered individuals the weak sisters or Johnny-come-latelys of the queer universe? Were the TG’s begrudgingly added on at some point because they are traditionally associated with homosexuals in a peripheral sense (case in point: transvestites)? Was it a case of not fitting in anywhere else, so they (we) bonded with the rest of the people that society cannot easily tolerate? Also, is it OK for a TG to say “TGLB,” or “TLGB,” or even “TBLG?” Let’s be fair in a communal sense, and display some consistency, even though it CAN get very confusing, and important issues tend to fall through the cracks as everybody jockeys for position...
    NO. We are not weak sisters or jeannie come lately. I just finished writing about this in another post. Caligula was very effeminate. Achilles' mother made him crossdress. Hermann Goering was rumored to crossdress, and there are some awkward photos of J Edgar Hoover crossdressing. Not weak. Many, many things, but not weak. And we've been around for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    Could there possibly be such a thing as a formal CROSSDRESSING community, or are we much too individualistic to be part of anything like that?
    I think we probably are too fractious to make a cohesive community. It'd be worth a try, though. Good post!

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    I wonder if...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
    Frederique,

    I also wonder if CDs are really TG--especially me! CD is just an observational fact, can't deny that's what I do. But Transgender is about identification--the way I feel about myself. Some times I feel very girly, other times not at all. So being transgendered seems to vary with time. Sometimes when I'm dressed fully en femme I feel giddy, sometimes just comfortable. Is one of those TG, one just fetish?

    To the extent that there is a community, it must be one that supports individual freedom from gender stereotypes. That would make me an A for "Ally" in LGBTQQIA, even if I weren't T. In current hip usage, my insistence on wearing a skirt and a mustache in public probably makes me Q as well, although I don't like the term "Queer". I don't militantly demand acceptance, but I do gratefully accept tolerance whenever it's offered. Luckily, that's almost always, so far.
    Lainie, I wonder if by using Transgender the user isn't trying to add a certain cachet to what they do. aft all , if i want to be special, I want something that will tell people I'm special. Just a plain ol' crossdresser isn't anything worth noting, and may be worse--one could be a pervert!. It's like people who say they are members of MENSA.
    It's hard enough for men to define masculine and then at the same time say they are feminine. How do they define feminine? There is so much nuture that is responsible for femininity and men simply aren't nurtured in that way. Osmosis? IDK. I do think about it often but can't come to any real answer about the word transgender.
    Just a crossdresser.
    JUST a crossdresser

  21. #21
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    A Transgender person is one who crosses the boundaries of sexual being. We were all born with one sex or the other. If you were born a male, and you crossdress to look like a female, you are a TG! That is a fact! It has nothing to do with how you feel about yourself! It only has to do with who you really are, and what you are doing!

    I am a crossdresser and freely admit it! But I am also a Transgender because I am a MTF crossdresser! And so is every crossdresser, whether male or female!

    Those who use words like Transgender in ways other than what I described have not defined the word properly! If you crossdress, you are TG!!
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

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    Nobody "decided" which letter in the acronym LGBT came first. It just grew. We used to refer to just Lesbians and Gays, then Bisexuals got added and finally Transgenders. Now we seem to be adding more letters in our never ending quest for PC.

    If you guys want a "C" in there to include crossdressers, then start using it. Stick a "C" in there somewhere. Who knows, it might just catch on. Then you could say, "Ahh. You know? I was there when it started".

    S

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    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    I suddenly have a craving for a BLT on white toast. Easy on the mayo.
    I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.

  24. #24
    Joanie sterling12's Avatar
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    Only because I think people are getting confused....I will weigh in, and see if I can further confuse everyone!

    Try to understand The Concept that we are all part of The Transgendered Community, but it's still possible there are individuals who would not consider themselves to be transgendered, That's because there are at least two meanings and associations with that word. In somewhat recent times it has become an Umbrella Term for everyone within The MtF, FtM Spectrum. For political, social, and focus issues it behooves us to be together, and yet try to be understanding of various parts of that Spectrum. But, Transgender is convenient because it is somewhat neutral, and doesn't seem to create The Alienation that some other past and oft-used term might engender. (Would you prefer to be part of The "Drag Queen Nation, or The Fetish Crossdresser Spectrum?) I will assume you all get The Point.

    And then there is The Classic Definition(s) of transgendered, that have been used in The Past by The Psych Community to try and "classify" various divisions within The Spectrum. I think Reine's Thread will give you some cogent and "accepted by some" definitions of those. I think the most useful, if we paraphrase is: "feelings of some type of internalized femininity, or feelings of belonging to The Opposite Sex." If you think about it, that may cover up to 90% of us? IF, we define those feelings as having ever existed within The Feelings of some individual! Think of how many threads we have where The OP describes how feminine/womanly/girly they feel after having done some thing, or dressed in some way.


    So, it's not so surprising that "Transgender has gotten popular as an "Umbrella Term." I hope that people now reading this thread can now Get Off all their declarations of "Non-TG." I don't think that's what The Thread is about. And maybe this will help to clarify, and assuage concerns from some Responders.

    Peace and Love, Joanie
    Last edited by sterling12; 07-28-2012 at 01:52 AM.

  25. #25
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    The progression was G, GL, LG, LGBT + others...

    Each step represented somewhat painful growth in how the Community considered itself and they were not easy. The abbreviation was changed in the 80's to Lesbian Gay as Gay Lesbian seemed to carry the sense of male domination. In the 90's the change to LGBT (and other letters) represented a way of being more inclusive and to present a more formidable image to the general public.

    The notion of political correctness is misplaced here. As a bisexual, I will use the term "we". It is important that we as a Community come together as a viable entity. Being inclusive is helpful towards this goal and lets the general public know (in theory) if you mess with ONE of us, us mess with ALL of us. There is strength in numbers and it is important to take advantage of that.

    However, with the exception of those of us who identify as Transgendered, Cross Dressers don't exactly fit the LGBT construct. We span the range from Heterosexual to Homosexual. Some of us may fit, but many of us don't. I don't think it would really make sense for us to separate ourselves. Political movements need Critical Mass and we would not have that as a separate entity.

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