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Thread: Are you part of the solution or are you part of the problem?

  1. #1
    Happy in life KlaireLarnia's Avatar
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    Are you part of the solution or are you part of the problem?

    This has been eating at me for a while and the post below has been written, re-written and re-written again. Please don't crucify me for it but I hope you will take it in the spirit it is written

    [SIZE="3"]As MTF cross dressers we sit outside the mainstream of “society” because of what we do and the lack of understanding of why we do it - because as men, society does not allow us to wear clothes designed, styled and coloured for the opposite sex. Women can wear male or more masculine clothes thanks in part to the sexual revolution that has taken place over the past 30-40 years. We, as cross-dressers, sit in a similar place to where homosexuals sat say 90 years ago. We are seen as abnormal, somewhat immoral and frankly weird/perverted. Remember homosexuality was once seen as a medical illness which needed “treatment and curing”. It took a lot of time, and effort to convince the majority that it was normal, acceptable and nothing to fear. Even now we are not fully there, there are elements which don’t want or fear them. From my experience male homosexuality is less tolerated than female homosexuality – and the sex industry has played a large part in this perception.

    And so in our part of the spectrum we also face barriers and problems. MTF cross dressing is seen with an element of distain, distrust and perhaps fear. Female cross dressing can often be seen as power dressing, smart dressing, being assertive. I know and understand there are FTM transsexuals who are probably treated as badly as we are at times, but as the largest section of cross-dressing is MTF – so it is that section that has become synonymous with it. FTM cross-dressers can also hide in plain sight a lot better than a MTF transsexual can, there are a lot of males who have a feminine look to their faces. Sadly we as MTF cross-dressers are instantly placed in the same area as homosexuals by society as it has this initial conception that anyone who wishes to dress in female clothes must also be homosexual which is more often than not incorrect. I would guess at least 90% of us who have come out to female partners have had that question asked or put to us. Perhaps as other posts here have suggested we are lumped into this “LGBT” community to give us a place or sense of being part of something when most of us who are cross dressers (and not transgendered) do not associate with this community as it is not related to who we are. As a straight, heterosexual man – I want as much to do with this LGBT community as a 4 year old child wants to sit in an opera house and listen to Beethoven for 4 hours.

    The other large issues and stigma we face is that cross dressing can be seen as a sexual kick thing. While this has an element of truth for some again for the majority it is wrong, but the public only sees what it wants to at times and finds it easy to explain something like this as some sort of perverted fantasy/fetish/kick.
    There are many degrees of cross dressing and reasons for doing it and this is perhaps what makes it so hard for the mass public to accept or understand. With something like homosexuality it is very simple in respect of what it is (you are attracted to the same sex), it is also understood that it is do with a person’s genetic makeup. It is also something that happens (mostly) behind closed doors – thus the public can largely ignore it or pretend it does not happen. While cross dressing is initially a very private thing, it can also become very public. Some do it in the privacy of our homes under strict circumstances, hiding even from those we love. Others - myself included - venture out into the wide world. So this then leads me to ask if we - the people who actually cross dress & venture out into the wide word - are part of the solution or are we actually part of the problem with regards to the stigma attached to what we do.

    I think that society is ready and able to accept that men wish to express a more feminine or softer side. Some years ago a man wearing a pink shirt would have instantly had him branded as homosexual and shunned, but now we can wear them at any point in the day - formal or casual – no one cares. But I think the issue comes when we try and be something we are not. Whether we are doing that so that we can have the freedom we desire, the ability to wear what we want or because we want to be part of something we cannot otherwise take part in. I think that is where the public perception and tolerance comes to an end. When someone is being what they want to be and expressing who they are it is fine, people can grasp that – they may not like it but they can grasp it. Remember when punks & hippies came into the world. People hated them and where scared of them at first, but eventually it was seen as a sign of expression as most of the people where perfectly decent – they just had a point to make and they did it well. But when someone tries to be something they are not, that is when the problems start. I wear women’s clothes. My reasons are sound – it is an expression of who I am, how I feel and a way of saying I WANT to be able to do this. But at all times I give the appearance of being male. Sadly even I sometimes look at a man who is trying to pass as a woman and think that they are taking a step too far. That they are making it hard for people like me to have the freedom that I... that THEY desire by trying to be something they are not.

    Society has limits of tolerance. These are constantly being pushed to allow more people to live a happy, fulfilled and complete life. But changes come at a cost. Someone, somewhere will always loose out. Homosexuals became accepted, but could not marry or show affection in public. Homosexuals where able to marry/be formal partners, people questioned the sanctity of marriage and the foundation it stands on. So with cross dressing, people may accept the reasons, but not the actual act. People go “en femme”, re-enforcing stereotypes and hinder the progress of those who do not. I don’t mean to be rude but I am willing to place money on my next statement: You could get 4 average cross dressers who go out fully “en femme” and put them with 6 real women in a line up. Most people will get at least 2-3 if not all 4 of them. Most simply do not blend in that well. You look like what you are. Men dressed as and trying to look/act like women. And this is where I feel the public have the issue. I watched a TV programme a few nights ago and in it they introduced two women and instantly I could see they were male and this was before they had opened their mouths or the presenter had said anything – and I was right as it was explained 30 seconds later they where two transsexuals. This is not a nasty comment, just a point about the how people can see things others feel are hidden.

    So what is the solution? Sadly I don’t think there is one. We have no great cause to get behind or help us. We have no single reason for being the way we are, nothing we can use to prove we are “normal” (It is not like it is a simple gene being swapped or damaged or we would all be the same in our reasons for dressing). We are fragmented in what we want out of it and more importantly how best to achieve it.

    So I will go and leave it with this thought: Before you walk out the door ask yourself: Are you helping or hindering progress. Are you part of the solution or are you part of the problem? Personal I think I am both in that I am trying to break down the barriers but in doing so I am therefore part of the problem.
    [/SIZE]

  2. #2
    Girl from the Eagles Nest reb.femme's Avatar
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    Hi Klaire,

    I agree with what you say about LGBT. It isn't something that represents me as a heterosexual CD. Freddy raised this very point just a little while ago. Worth the read if you haven't seen it. Whilst the T may represent an entire spectrum of people, I personally do not feel that as an entity it has any application to me.

    Are we by going out, part of the problem or part of the solution? Good question, but unable to offer any opinion worthy of note on that one. Far too deep for this late hour, but I just accept that this is the world and as you say, it currently has it's limits on what it will accept. Many will argue, and rightly so, that without attempting to change things, the status quo is maintained. Sometimes, life's a bitch!

    Sorry my contribution doesn't amount to much, but I'm sure it'll take some of the flak off of you!

    Rebecca x
    Last edited by reb.femme; 07-28-2012 at 05:17 PM.
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  3. #3
    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    I guess the question that comes to my mind regarding this is: "Is it just something we "do" or is it something we "feel"? The "problem" is not seen the same way by everyone, nor is the "solution" as no matter what we do, we can never please everyone, so we just take our best shot.
    Last edited by Kate Simmons; 07-28-2012 at 05:21 PM.
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    New Member JennyDoTell's Avatar
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    Most people in general fear rejection. Whether it's from a loved one, co-worker, or stranger. Like I stated in another thread, I fear being outed in my hometown, but really don't give a dam in a large city.
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  5. #5
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaire Larnia View Post
    [SIZE="3"]People go “en femme”, re-enforcing stereotypes and hinder the progress of those who do not. I don’t mean to be rude but I am willing to place money on my next statement: You could get 4 average cross dressers who go out fully “en femme” and put them with 6 real women in a line up. Most people will get at least 2-3 if not all 4 of them. Most simply do not blend in that well. You look like what you are. Men dressed as and trying to look/act like women. And this is where I feel the public have the issue. I watched a TV programme a few nights ago and in it they introduced two women and instantly I could see they were male and this was before they had opened their mouths or the presenter had said anything – and I was right as it was explained 30 seconds later they where two transsexuals. This is not a nasty comment, just a point about the how people can see things others feel are hidden.[/SIZE]
    Maybe you can start by telling me what stereotypes I'm apparently reinforcing & how I am somehow hindering progress for those who choose not to go out and then I'll reply to tell you how utterly wrong much of your premise is.
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  6. #6
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    Hi KL, To say it's right or wrong oh well it's who I am and it's what I do.
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  7. #7
    Member Lainie's Avatar
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    I don't understand what "progress" would look like to you.
    I go out wearing women's clothing--typically skirt, blouse, heels, purse--a mustache, and no make up. Generally people are tolerant, friendly, sometimes amused. Am I contributing to your vision, or causing trouble?
    Some here think I'm "damaging the cause", but I'm not sure what the cause is, or how we are supposed to get there.

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  8. #8
    My name is Carol Julogden's Avatar
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    I'm not about to dissect that long-winded piece, but suffice it to say that I disagree with massive amounts of it that to me are just plain wrong.

    You seem to have an agenda, but it isn't particularly apparent as to what it is, other than causing arguments here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post

    Tomato tomahto. I believe the LGBT (QQISTUV) community is more an activist and support complex. Be in or not. I am sort of selfish though, when the community get rights I don't think those who are not on the train should be claiming victory. You will reap the benefits but it is sort of like watching your favorite sports team and giving your buddy a high five when they score. You didn't do it, you watched it. and yet you are marginalized and degraded in standard life because of it. Better to be part of something than stand alone I think.

    That is very true. In the majority of instances many people here don't want to be part of the community because, in actuality. they are almost as narrow minded as a majority of society. They don't want to be "part" of the gay community...because...they think being gay is ?????different??? Wrong????? Not normal??? I find that many who rail the hardest have the biggest issue with gays. The biggest concern for their own heterosexuality. Why otherwise would it be a concern?(wonder how many men worried about that when they marched with women 50 years ago? They weren't women so why bother being part of the movement???)

    I don't see being classed as Transgendered is a concern. I kind of like that at least in the beginning the L&G community took us under their wing in the fight for equal rights. Because of the non-committal attitudes of the trans community, the L&G community now often finds us to be the millstone. They would not cry at all if the T community said leave us alone. Why? Because we are still in the "pervert" class (and yes that includes guys, and maybe even MORE so, who just wear women's underwear. Yes as a person who only underdresses what could the worst that could happen? (asked the underdresser in 1935 who would have ended up classed as gay because after all I am sure that the people in charge of Germany thought if you wore panties you HAD to be gay). Meh, it won't happen again right?
    AMEN!!! Lorileah, you've you've summed up some things really well that have occurred to me too, well said.

    Carol
    Last edited by Julogden; 07-28-2012 at 06:48 PM.
    My name is Carol.

  9. #9
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    There is another way of looking at this. Apply Occam's Razor. There is no problem. Any problem you perceive is your perception.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Debglam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Jessica View Post
    Maybe you can start by telling me what stereotypes I'm apparently reinforcing & how I am somehow hindering progress for those who choose not to go out and then I'll reply to tell you how utterly wrong much of your premise is.
    Bump.

    So we should all stay in the closet for fear of being read by the public? Sorry but I'm having too much fun.

    Cut our ties to the LGBT community? Let me let you in on a little secret - the addition of the "T" to "LGB" had put a burden on them and a benefit to us. We, whether or not pure CD's are part of the transgender community or not, are riding on their coattails. At one time, here in the US up until the 1970's, it was a crime to be dressed as a member of the opposite sex. These laws fell by the wayside when the gay community fought the laws against homosexual conduct. I may be heterosexual but I know who my friends are. Are we gonna always be 100% together on the issues? No, but close enough for me.

    Klaire, I really don't mean this as an insult but I think you should really look within yourself and see why you feel the way you do. Why are you so concerned about what the public thinks about CD's in public? Why do you care about being associated with the LGB community? IMHO, once we get comfortable in our own skins and take ownership of being a CD or trans or whatever, these issues just don't matter.

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  11. #11
    Banned Spammer
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    My local GLBT supports TG and Cd's and includes them as part of their group.
    With out their help here CD's would have never had support other than small support groups.
    GLBT here is great.

  12. #12
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    I still can't for the life of me wrap my head around the idea that any straight CDer could possibly point a finger at gays and condemn homosexuality. That to me is mind-boggling.

  13. #13
    I live in the real world! DaphneGrey's Avatar
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    I am not part of a solution or problem I am just being me.

    I am also quite proud to be part of the GLBT community. Your post gives you away. I could be wrong but I sense quite a bit of self loathing in OP. This problem you perceive has more to do with your own insecurity than anybody going out en femme and living their lives.

    If everything you do is governed by what other people think of you. You are going to live an unfulfilling and miserable life. No mater what clothes you are wearing.
    Last edited by DaphneGrey; 07-28-2012 at 07:37 PM.
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    i opposed the "t" but it feel on deaf ears..lumping cd's in that group was a huge mistake..far as blending in i agree 99% do not..there are a few of us who can though..i recently was shopping in greasy guy mode at a local dots fashion store and ended up educating another shopper about crossdressers.she thought i was bisexual until i produced a pic of myself and my lovely GG..after that we both shopped together (she asked many questions) with her offering all her favorite stores which i might like..in the end that may be whats most important-educating those who think we are bisexual (or other)--the association with the glb's has not been very helpful to the heterosexual cd (and many know why).
    Last edited by michelle64; 07-28-2012 at 07:49 PM.

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    This thread is a perfect example of why there will never ever be unity in this so-called "community". Too many people doing "their own thing" and going in too many different directions. You have CD's running around with facial hair and masks and whatever else. There are far more sub-groups within "T" than there are in gay or lesbian. The "T Community" is not united behind one solitary cause.
    Part of the solution or part of the problem? The OP didn't say what they even think the actual problem is! Is the problem that CD's should be more passable? Not go in public? Another can o' worms...

  16. #16
    I live in the real world! DaphneGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michelle64 View Post
    i opposed the "t" but it feel on deaf ears..lumping cd's in that group was a huge mistake..far as blending in i agree 99% do not..there are a few of us who can though..i recently was shopping in greasy guy mode at a local dots fashion store and ended up educating another shopper about crossdressers.she thought i was bisexual until i produced a pic of myself and my lovely GG..after that we both shopped together (she asked many questions) with her offering all her favorite stores which i might like..in the end that may be whats most important-educating those who think we are bisexual (or other)--the association with the glb's has not been very helpful to the heterosexual cd (and many know why).
    I dont know why it was bad for CDs please explain it to me
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  17. #17
    Silver Member Babeba's Avatar
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    FTM cross-dressers can also hide in plain sight a lot better than a MTF transsexual can, there are a lot of males who have a feminine look to their faces.
    I don't think I would ever, in a million years, pass for a guy. I'm short, small shouldered, tiny waisted, large-hipped, with a chest that would not hide very easily. True, women can wear 'masculine' clothing, but in some ways this hinders the FTM transsexual because it masks his true identity and makes it a lot harder for him to identify visually as trans. Many transmen face violence, as well. Neither FTM or MTF is easy, but putting down their struggle will not make your own easier.


    Perhaps as other posts here have suggested we are lumped into this “LGBT” community to give us a place or sense of being part of something when most of us who are cross dressers (and not transgendered) do not associate with this community as it is not related to who we are. As a straight, heterosexual man – I want as much to do with this LGBT community as a 4 year old child wants to sit in an opera house and listen to Beethoven for 4 hours.
    The Stonewall Riots were held because a bunch of homosexuals objected to a bunch of cross dressers and transsexuals being arrested in a police raid - unlike the gay patrons, men wearing women's clothing couldn't fade into the crowds outside and avoid arrest. Worse, cross dressing was considered a seriously criminal psychiatric condition back then - as a heterosexual cross dresser I assume you like being able to walk outside without being thrown into a prison hospital, so cut the gay community and GLBT some slack.

    Personally, I love being a supporter of the GLBTQ community- I'm kinda B (aren't most of us humans?), my best friend is G, my boyfriend is T, and I am so flattered when I get hit on by L's or other B's. I know that I beat to a different drum, am passionate about human rights, and like to self identify as Q.


    The other large issues and stigma we face is that cross dressing can be seen as a sexual kick thing. While this has an element of truth for some again for the majority it is wrong, but the public only sees what it wants to at times and finds it easy to explain something like this as some sort of perverted fantasy/fetish/kick.
    You know, I've looked - and I don't think I have ever seen any sort of proper study breaking down how many people are cross dressers for what reasons. There are a lot of guys who like wearing panties for kicks, and it's a pretty downright normal fetish. Probably a lot of guys will have tried on panties who did it for the thrill without wondering if it made them a cross dresser or a woman inside.

    Besides, have you heard of fifty shades of grey? It's pretty popular to be kinky right now!

  18. #18
    Aspiring Member TeresaL's Avatar
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    My wife just asked me if I would visit this new evangelical church, and I said I wouldn't. I'm not going to be a part of another bigoted, discriminating, accusational, exclusive or judgmental church. OTOH, being a musician, I've somehow and very recently found myself on the worship team in an LGBT friendly church. If I ever choose a church, it would be this one, because it is "inclusive."

    The rights that LGB fought for and have within their grasp is being handed to us as transgender, and here we have those who want to be exclusive and be a CD only (whatever the hell that means) and throw the opportunity away. As a transgender under the LGBT banner, we can have some form of freedom from society's discriminating and insipid pressure. My knowledge of LGBT is superficial at best, but I know firsthand the pain from the shackles and bondage of being stuffed into the closet, after I was outed to everyone I am close too. As of recent, I am no longer in the closet, and I'm not going back in if my very life depends on it.

    If I lose everything but myself, at least I can then be myself. LGBT therefore, and IMO, has prepared a path for transgendered folks to walk on with dignity.

    NOTE: Instead of running away from transgender, maybe we should be running towards it because the rights won by LGBT should be most precious to us as cross-dressers. At least those who want the freedom to be themselves.
    Last edited by TeresaL; 07-28-2012 at 11:50 PM. Reason: Added NOTE

  19. #19
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    I personally have a different view and have little to add to the discussion/argument or fishing trip that seems to be applied here.
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  20. #20
    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Hopefully, I'm not part of, "The problem".

    But, I'm PRETTY CERTAIN Sherry is NOT part of, "The solution"!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  21. #21
    Just a touch of class Lynn Marie's Avatar
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    [SIZE="4"]At first glance I was going to ignore this thread becuse the OP was so long winded. There wasn't much else of interest so I came back to this one and read it through. I kept saying to myself as I was going paragraph to paragraph, "so get to the point!"

    And we never did. Everything stated by the OP is common knowledge to all of us. It's just the way things are. I go out dressed to the nines and looking as good as I possibly can, and yet I'm "made" just as quickly as some guy in heels, a skirt and a moustache! There's no justice. I personally feel the guy dressed with the moustache is making all of us look bad, but then again, when I'm "made", so am I.

    I give up. I'll just do the best I can and stay close to the LGBT community. They don't judge nearly so harshly.
    [/SIZE]

  22. #22
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    Mmmmm .... let me see now .... are crossdressers who ignore their wives/SOs part of the solution or the problem?

  23. #23
    Member Sophia Claire's Avatar
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    You know, as a political analyst (among other things), I listen to a lot of public figures make a lot of speeches. And when politicians and influential public figures go on long, controversial, sanctimonious diatribes (such as the OP in this thread) lasting longer than five minutes, I have developed this knee-jerk reaction: I immediately go searching for an ulterior motive. And I always find one. Always.

    Analysis of this post indicates that the writer feels inadequate justification for her own gallivanting about town and thus legitimizes her actions by questioning the legitimacy of everyone else's. Am I part of the problem? What, because I don't pass I should just stay at home and do everyone a favor?

    It was a good save to lump herself in with the rest of us who are ignorantly hindering progress. Makes her seem like she's not out to do exactly what she's doing, which is basically telling the rest of us that we shouldn't be out and about because we're just making asses out of ourselves and all of us and we'll never be accepted if we do that.

    Which is utter nonsense, by the by. We'll never be accepted until we become commonplace and people at large realize that we're not that weird, we're not perverts, we don't want to touch your children, and we're not ill. We're just people who want to be accepted as we are.

    Perhaps I've misread this. Again, my tolerance for controversy is about five minutes. But judging by the reactions of some of the other ladies here, I don't think I'm missing the point (such that it was. Good catch, Lynn Marie!).

  24. #24
    Member max's Avatar
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    Hmm interesting take Sophia. I took from this post a large degree of self-loathing, it seems you agree with that characterization?
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  25. #25
    Just being true to myself Jolene Robertson's Avatar
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    Like Lynn and others, I read this thread last night but did not want to respond until I had a chance to digest what the OP was trying to say (not sure I do yet). But I agree with some of the other posts here, we need to support each other, most people who I have encountered who have to judge others harshly for being them selves but think they are more justified usually have so personal problem that they have not dealt with. And seam to feel that by putting others down it somehow raises them up a notch or relieves their guilt.

    I for one can't pass but it is who I am and I accept that and am finally happy with me. If that is part of someones problem "THEN GET OVER IT"! I would rather be me than keep trying to pass someone else's idea of who they think I should be. I am in the closet to most of my family only because I love them and would never do anything to hurt them. But on my time I'm finally free.

    Thanks for letting me rant

    Hugs
    Jolene

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