Looking at ourselves (misleadingly ambiguous title...)

[JeanneF]

May(be),

I think your "pie" analogy is correct. All of us are a mix of personalities, preferences and peccadilloes. It takes all of us to make a pie. Do some of us want to 'carve out' a slice that we don't like? Sure. For some, that may be male traits that we feel are distasteful. For others, it may be body modifications to more closely align ourselves with a perceived ideal. We all want to be the best person we feel we can be, and try to reduce what we feel is not in line with our ideal.

Due to our makeup, upbringing and socialization, we each have different ideas on just what is good or bad. Some see anything masculine as a thing to be feared, removed, minimized, or hidden. Others have no issue integrating what society sees as masculine with the feminine - i.e. those wearing both a skirt and a beard. Some place a huge premium on looking and being as feminine as possible - whether to merely blend into society or to fully escape anything seen as masculine depends on the individual.

So, why do we do this? The reasons are as varied as we are. For some, it is merely overcompensation. If you're trying to appear feminine, then anything masculine must be bad, right? For others, it is a matter of getting your outside in sync with what you feel inside. Heck, others may even believe some of the things that women say about us (you've heard the stories of how stupid men are, how insensitive, how shallow), and are trying to flee that stereotype.

Again, the answers are varied. In my case, this site is both good and bad. We all have heard about the pink fog, right? Well, at times, this site enables that fog for me. I do something. I post about it. I get feedback on how feminine or pretty I am, and that makes me want to post more about feminine things. Feedback loop, anyone? Obviously, that can be bad. This site is good to me in that it is one of my only sources of support and friendship for my crossdressing. You people understand me when a spouse never really could. You understand the reasons we do this, rather than thinking what the world thinks about it. Does this site 'decrease' my masculinity by making me accentuate my femininity? I don't think so. Again, for me, I don't flee or denigrate the masculine. It is a part of me - a large part. You know what? So is my femininity - however I choose to express it.

So, if your original question is does this site accentuate the feminine at the expense of masculinity, than I say yes - to a point. That point is up to the individual.

Kathi

Very well put, Kathi.

Part of the issue as I see it is that many members have truly antagonistic relationships between their male and female selves. A lot of it has to do with life experience...if you had a rough childhood (or adulthood, for that matter) because you were "girly", you may lash out at masculine things as being painful. You can see in many posts how much some members really HATE their male self.

[Ambergold43]

Yes, I do think that this forum tends to favor the "Female" in Male-to-Female Crossdressing, even though that is really only half of the total equation. In some ways though (well, in a lot of ways) the forum is still very much Male-focused and Male-centered.

By this I mean: most of the things that are talked about on this forum, and much of the "female" or feminine images created in our avatars and activities discussed (such as waxings, nail paintings, shopping, or whatever) are from a very masculine perception of femininity. Most of the things we talk about on here are about very superficial and stereotypical representations (in my opinion) of femininity. If this forum really were ever about femininity or women, why aren't there forum discussions ever of things that REALLY matter to women, such as the issues women face around the world, such as worker's rights, individual reproductive rights, social injustices, etc.? The femininity here is really just our idealized representations of how we (males) perceive femininity and females.

So yeah, if anything... I think this forum puts certain aspects of Femininity on a pedestal, but the forum is definitely still male-centered.

[ReluctantDebutant]

What a great post. This is a topic dear to my heart. It is the prerogative of this site to be pro-femininity. That would be perfectly fine if the members of this site were a hundred percent entrenched on the feminine side, but there are many of those members who are still 'in negotiations" with themselves. These members would benefit more from a more balanced view. Not all but many here seem to put their thumb on the scale in favor of femininity over masculinity.

A person goes nowhere if they only listen to negativity but if they only listen to positivity they may find themselves very confident in trouble as well as confused as how they got there.

[STACY B]

I was JUST talking to my wife today about almost the same thing ,,, An I looked at the thread writers profile just to check the age of the writer an I was right ,, The young chix here are way more insecure that the older ones when it comes to Manly ness ,, Us older chix have alreay proven our selves to the world an dont care about what other think or say about us . An dont get me wrong cuz I already know what alot of chix will say about what I am writing ,,, They will lash out at me an say ,,, ( I dont care what people say ,,, Bla,,,Bla,, ) But thats the point ? You do ,, Becuz no amount of courage can account for life lived ,,,That comes with age an age alone ,, Travel the hard roads an the School of hard knocks ,,I ran from this an went all over the world trying to prove my self to myself ,, An once the Journey ended no one had to tell me it was over I knew it . I am a man ,, Did it all an guess what ? I am here an I still wear womans clothes an do womanly things ,, I made friends an tried to self medicate played the role ,,,Thats nether here nor there what we did in the past ,, You will purge an go on an live your life an raise kids an do mans stuff an try an forget all about all of this for a while an thats great ,, But tell ya secret ,,, If your here ,,,Your here for a reason ,, No guy would ever come here unless he was one of us ,,There is no drive ,,No payoff ,, Nothing in it for him,, But we are here becuz we are the way we are an thats it . We are people who identify with the oppasite gender ,,No matter what level ,, An you mite go for years ,,,But always remember one thing ,,,It will hit you like a ton of bricks one day when your older an dont care about all of the sterio types an labels they will put on you ,,, The only thing that you will care about is lining your body up with your mind . Regardless of the cost ,, So if you think your not a girl your mistaken ,, An your a man too,,, Twice a GREAT ,,,

[Pexetta]

Do you feel that this forum (male-to-female cross dressing) encourages femininity at the expense of masculinity

Yes - and that's why I come here.

[Kaz]

This continues to be a most interesting thread! I wrote a 'tome' a while back and then decided not to post... but now I can't resist... oh well!

This is the MtF section of the 'forum'. There are many other sections. This is the biggest forum for posts I guess because it is why most people are here... to understand their desire as males to dress in more feminine attire... and of course as has been said there are many varied reasons behind this and many different ways we prefer to express it. We also have a FtM community. Within these CDing communities we than have those who are on a journey of transition, whether that is full dressing in clothes of the opposite gender or full surgical transition, or indeed somewhere in between. A key strength of the site/forum is that it embraces a huge diversity, as Nigella has said - the TG community, and as May has called it - the 'pie'.

I have had some conversations here about guitars, and other pastimes things that are more in my male domain... just not in the MtF section? The Genetic Male section has a very different feel to this one! As does the Transmen section!

When I am in the MtF section I am looking for just that... male to female crossdressing.

But this thread has caused me to think a lot about the issues raise and has helped me in my continued understanding of who and where I am with all this. Thanks May for posting!

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi May If it didn't Iwouldn't be here.

[May(be)]

This thread was emotionally draining for me. Thanks to everyone who participated. There were sooooo many good points made, and I hope that this thread made some people ponder, even for a moment. I think I'll stick to posting about fun stuff for a while now.

[bridget thronton]

I have seen this board treat FtM CD's and TS with civility and support - and indeed encouragement to follow the path that makes them happiest

[Vickie_CDTV]

This is a tough one... err... I know I am going to catch heck for this post... but to answer your question... in my opinion "yes". However, it is not this forum specifically by any means, but rather the M2F transgender community in general, and I don't believe it is an intentional, targeted thing. The trans community as a whole has such an incredibly diverse set of needs, and sometimes the needs of the "occasional dressing/ok with being a man" TV can get drowned out in the wider discussion. Plenty of folks in the trans community are TS and hate being male, and that is obviously understandable and appropriate given their situation, but sometimes I worry that, especially to new folks, it can be come off as being anti-male; that it might come off as everyone "should" want to emasculate themselves, being a male is an evil thing and if they don't want to emasculate themselves there is something "wrong" with them. I wish there was more of an emphasis on the fact one can be an occasional dresser, and still like being a guy, and that is fine way to be. Again, it is not someone's fault or such, it is just so difficult to meet the needs of such an incredibly diverse group.

If I remember right, years ago some Tri-Ess groups held en drab "guys night out" events in addition to monthly dressed meetings, to encourage members to meet and get to know each other as men in addition to knowing each other in their femme identities. I always thought this was a great idea, and wish other groups did something similar. I am not ashamed of being male, and have no problem going to events en drab as well as en femme. As far as I am concerned, people can come and meet both sides of myself.

[STACY B]

This is a tough one... err... I know I am going to catch heck for this post... but to answer your question... in my opinion "yes". However, it is not this forum specifically by any means, but rather the M2F transgender community in general, and I don't believe it is an intentional, targeted thing. The trans community as a whole has such an incredibly diverse set of needs, and sometimes the needs of the "occasional dressing/ok with being a man" TV can get drowned out in the wider discussion. Plenty of folks in the trans community are TS and hate being male, and that is obviously understandable and appropriate given their situation, but sometimes I worry that, especially to new folks, it can be come off as being anti-male; that it might come off as everyone "should" want to emasculate themselves, being a male is an evil thing and if they don't want to emasculate themselves there is something "wrong" with them. I wish there was more of an emphasis on the fact one can be an occasional dresser, and still like being a guy, and that is fine way to be. Again, it is not someone's fault or such, it is just so difficult to meet the needs of such an incredibly diverse group.

If I remember right, years ago some Tri-Ess groups held en drab "guys night out" events in addition to monthly dressed meetings, to encourage members to meet and get to know each other as men in addition to knowing each other in their femme identities. I always thought this was a great idea, and wish other groups did something similar. I am not ashamed of being male, and have no problem going to events en drab as well as en femme. As far as I am concerned, people can come and meet both sides of myself.

You STOP an think for a second ? What Woman would NOT want to be able to switch at WILL ? Thats why I agree with you a 100% ,,,Hell I love being BOTH ,, I just want to change just enough to pull off the girl version with EASE ! Now thats SWEET ,,, We can be both ,,Cuz the guy parts easy ,, Friggen Hat Sunglasses some ol baggy ass shorts an a Tshirt an Deck shoes ,,,Unshaven ,,Hell all ya gotta do is let it all go an it will fix its self . Now For the Girl ,,,Now thats work !!

[ReineD]

Hell I love being BOTH ,, I just want to change just enough to pull off the girl version with EASE !

Here's the quandary: since it is difficult for the average male-bodied person to change just enough to be convincing as a female, how many of our members decide to forego the male, in order to pass more convincingly female?

And then being human, would there not be a degree of rationalization to justify these changes which would include a deprecation of maleness in general?

I'm not talking about the TSs who know without a doubt they are women born in the wrong body and who see their male anatomies as a birth defect.

[NathalieX66]

Here's the quandary: since it is difficult for the average male-bodied person to change just enough to be convincing as a female, how many of our members decide to forego the male, in order to pass more convincingly female?

gluten-free diet?

[STACY B]

Here's the quandary: since it is difficult for the average male-bodied person to change just enough to be convincing as a female, how many of our members decide to forego the male, in order to pass more convincingly female?

Well thats the Trick of it ,,, How far are you willing to take it ? How far CAN you go until your at the point of No return ? Well that is yet to be seen . An I will guarentee that it all is on a person by person basis . We are all different ,, Some are more manly ,, Some are more girly ,, So ya have to find your Nitch ? Waitttt a min ,,,Pull back Cow Girl,,, Just maybe yull bite off more than you care to CHEW ? Or like you say ,,Do ya throw caution to the wind an just go for it ? But when ya do just remember your playing with fire ,,, Womans work is HARD to swallow on a day to day basis ,, Cuz as far as I know its not all Pantyhose an Fancy outfits . LOL,,, There is alot of Matinence involved ,,So be careful what ya wish for cuz it just mite come true . LADY !!

[katie_barns]

One of the hazards of posting a controversial topic is that your questions sometimes get lost in the discussion. Your question was simple "does this forum encourage femininity at the expense of masculinity". [I will deal with just the first question]

To some degree yes. Although I do not remember any degrading of masculinity on any thread I have read. Basically masculinity doesn't come up as an issue or topic. Some member do not like being referred to as a girl. That in itself could be looked at as those people feeling that way. I understand how they feel; but I don't feel that way. That’s ok.

One of the great things about this form is the spectrum of people here. From the very feminine to the masculine that likes to dress occasionally. I don't feel that exploring my femininity causes any expense to my masculinity. My masculinity is what it is; just like my feminine side.

I do propose that our society is the one that has a clear cut separation of masculine and feminine. One must be sacrificed for the other. Here not so much.

I mean no offense by this - A lot of the post here [including my own] usually has a masculine tone. The way posts are worded come from the masculine side. All the way down to word choice and sentence structure. A lot of us talk like guys even when we talk about makeup and clothing choices. From that perspective we are not sacrificing any of our masculinity. Ok that was pushing it, but just trying to make a point. Again nothing wrong with any of it. Just the way it is. And yes some here talk like girls.

May(be) I think this was a great post. Not for the controversially topic but to show that this forum has the most amazing people that can come from every walk of life with different degrees of interest in a topic [crossdressing] and not beat each other up; but actually learn.

To answer your question in my opinion No

[Butterfly Bill]

Not saying that at all. In fact, I am not suggesting anything. Just playing devil's advocate. I'm only questioning if, considering the continuum of cross dressing, masculinity fits into the conversations on this forum of MtF cross dressing. I am seeing if this forum is inclusive of the male cross dresser who does not, in an way shape or form, identify with the feminine. Is this board supportive of a male who simply likes the feel of silk? I saw a post about a CD who said that "passing is not important to him. In fact, he does not even shave his beard when he cross dresses" .

Yes, as one of those persons I feel like I'm in a small minority. But I don't feel excluded, because I can post without fear of being flamed. But the majority of the threads here I can't really relate to, so I don't comment much.

[Dree Yer Ane Weird]

I'm with Butterfly Bill on this. There's nothing inherently exclusive about the forum but it does tend to have a bias towards a particular outlook. When I was trying to come to terms with what I was if I hadn't used the search function i would have assumed that i wasn't a CD-er because I didn't want to do what the majority of threads were talking about.

I then joined because some of the sweeping generalisations were getting annoying but now I just ignore them.

[KaTanya]

The problem is that the concepts of "male" and "masculinity" are being treated as the same thing, when they're two seperate states (one physical, the other emotional). I always read this as part of the point of the forum, to challenge the concepts of "mascu/feminity" through the way we dress, etc. Does it help me relate to the experience of being a woman? Well, I haven't spontaneously had my first period yet, so I guess not. But that isn't a "feminine" thing... you get the idea.

To May(be), perhaps you should go with option C: exploring your feminity as asupplement to your masculinity, not a substitute. Ciao.

[Annette Todd]

I am a little concerned about some users suggesting that NASCAR or football can't be feminine. It seems like that is a little bit of a sexist conceit of women to think they can't like football for whatever reason. For the record, I care for neither sport. I don't typically watch ANY sport.

I don't think I was bashing NASCAR or football... I simply said that is not why I am here...

I like college football (Go Huskers) but I am here to identify with others with similar interests in sharing ideas relating to M2F dressing.

You have to analyze the audience. Personally I don't identify with the sexist attitudes of many "real men" I run into. They boast about the women they had or make outlandishly rude comments to women. That offends me and I resent being stereotyped as a "man". I happen to be straight and definitley have no physical attraction to males. But, I don't male bash as a general rule. I reserve the right to attack sexism be it male or female.

I made the mistake on these forums in contributing in the body issues forum. I didn't realize that many, if not most, of the members there are on a path to transition and appear to subscribe to group-think and blast anyone who doesn't subscribe whole-heartedly to their ideas. (my personal experience)

The way I look at this forum is we are a very diverse bunch. There should be no put down of anyone because of their degree of how they express their desire to cross-dress OR transition. ( I'm not sure I am being clear )

I don't see there is so much male bashing going on as there is attacking other members for expressing their own opinions. I also feel that members who wish only to be contradictory or are not contributing in a supportive way (I don't mean you may(be)) should temper their comments.

I have probably talked myself into another hole. I appologize if I have offended anyone. That is not my intent. (maybe I am too opinionated)

[Kaz]

I'm with Butterfly Bill on this. There's nothing inherently exclusive about the forum but it does tend to have a bias towards a particular outlook. When I was trying to come to terms with what I was if I hadn't used the search function i would have assumed that i wasn't a CD-er because I didn't want to do what the majority of threads were talking about.

I then joined because some of the sweeping generalisations were getting annoying but now I just ignore them.

This is an important point, I feel, because if we say we are a community of crossdressers, then the laws of statistical variation will apply. If you apply, say, a normal distribution to MtF CDs... with the more fem and the more masc in the tails of the distibution, which is where I guess they could be, then the vast majority of people on this site will tend to express a similar view and this could look like a bias. It is not a bias it is a case of numbers and volume of forum traffic. This is why we have different subsections. Given our population, I would love to do some research and stats on this... I think it would be very interesting to see the results!

The MtF section is the biggest, so it is possibly more representative of the 'general' views and attitudes of the members of the MtF community. By definition it will also be the most diverse as it effectively addresses the whole MtF community. If there is a bias in the norm for an anti-masculinity expression it would be great to understand the reasons for this. Without the data, by gut feel is that the majority of MtFs in this section are expressing a desire to less masculine and more feminine in their outlook on the section (not necessarily in real life). Apologies if I am repeating you Reine!

I don't come here to discuss guitars - I am a member of several other forums for this. But there are people here I will discuss guitars with if we find we have that in common. In the threads it gets identified and the PMs take care of the detail! I come to the MtF section to discuss issues pertaining to me and other MtF CDs... I learn and I contribute when I can. We are all different individuals but also with things in common... we are genetic males (our sex is male), but for varying reasons and in varying degrees, we like to wear clothing primarily designed (these days) for women.

[Contessa]

The two of them are not something you feel. It is a look I think. Then again I don't know and no body may read this anyway. Femininity is a way to look. It is what those who are masculine try to achieve. You can tell who is masculine cause they ask questions about femininity. We since we are all (mostly all) men actually come here for questions of feminine and we ask in a masculine way. I see you all as women those who use an avatar. I am not trying to be feminine I already am. And I don't want to learn the other way I already know. I don't think we have to be fair to masculinity here just when you are out with your guy friends. Or just dressing male or drab. Be drab or you know. I used to be male but not now. I wont say I was manish because I know I wasn't. I didn't nessicarily chase skirts, because I didn't realize I would rather wear them than just catch them to kiss them.

Sorry to not make any sense what so ever.

Tess

[Thera Home]

Whoa, my one brain cell is spinning like a top.............am I a man or what? help

Thera