Relating to other males as a transgendered crossdresser...

[Leslie Langford]

I want to put a somewhat different question than usual out there to the other members of this forum, as it has been the cause of much introspection for me of late.

In short, I have a pretty good idea of where I fit in on the transgendered spectrum at this point of my life (fully accept and enjoy my "Leslie" side now, but have no intention to transition fully). But it hasn't always been that way, and I was far more stereotypically "boyish" in my youth in thoughts and actions, despite my emerging female side.

So fundamentally, my question is "Have you noticed a gradual change in the way you relate to other males over the course of your life, and how would you describe your relationships with them at this point?" Please note that I am not talking about fathers, sons, or other relatives here, as that is a whole other dynamic.

When I was younger, I did all of the typically activity-based "boy" things - running jumping, wrestling, biking, playing with "boy" toys, participating in some contact sports, indulging in some semi- "Jackass" type stunts, begging my parents for my first BB gun, participating in the Air Cadets while still a teen-ager etc., etc. I also had a lot of male friends, despite sometimes having a reputation for also being a bit of a bookish nerd who worked hard to get good marks as I progressed through high school.

But I also found that over time, "Leslie" got a stronger and stronger hold over me, and some of the things that I enjoyed doing with "the guys" began to lose its appeal for me. I find that now, I enjoy the company of women far more, and their interests parallel mine more and more these days (make up, fashion, shopping, shoes, shoes, shoes , mani/pedis, and women's issues in general).

In short, I have less and less in common with the typical sports-obsessed alpha males that still predominate out there - and I am not even talking about the macho, hard-drinking, womanizing "manly" men and jocks that still form a significant sub-set of the male population.

I currently have no real male friends - only business associates and acquaintances, and that is more out of necessity than by choice. I hear of the concept of "male bonding" as evidenced by the current "bro-mance" trend, and I simply cannot relate to that. Same with the so-called "buddy" movies and sitcoms. I have just never had the inclination to be that close to another male, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that I just don't share their mind-set - and again, especially as I get older and get more in tune with my female side.

Have others here noticed a similar evolution in the way their relationships with those around them have changed - especially with regard to their fellow males? It's not that I dislike men in general despite my birth sex - I'm just indifferent to them, and on the whole, pretty much feel ambivalent about them as well...

[Marleena]

I struggled with this one too Leslie. I managed to fake the macho thing when I was younger. After my teens I struggled with it because people knew I was different after getting to know me. The workplace was hardest, I just did my job and got out of there. I have been a loner since my teens. I just don't fit in with the guys.

[Kaz]

Nice thread Leslie... causing a lot introspection...

In my youth I had male friends and girl friends and it was all the same... puberty hit and it got silly. It felt like I had to decide which side to be on... obviously the genes had already predetermined my path, but I struggled for a long time. Then I accepted and got on with it. Looking back, my male friendships have been centred around shared interests... mainly music... I play and have a passion for the guitar... work was always weird and I found it easier to befriend women... I then had all the angst of converting friendship into relationship... and looking back, I missed a lot of opportunities (as a male) because I was too interested in them as people?

I got married rather young by today's measures and got into the world of the competitive workplace... not me. I have struggled all my life with this... I have always seen myself in the male world as the 'scout'... the individual who doesn't belong , but who is nonetheless valued for what he brings. I have always struggled with male 'banter' and in mixed company always felt more at home with women.

After a lifetime of dealing with stuff, I have a few male friends outside of music, but those friendships are based on values in the workplace. They are not typical male bonding friendships... they run deeper. Male bonding is something I have had to endure rather than enjoy. I do not play golf, and do not do the usual corporate male ceremonies... Yuck!

There is not a lot that I like about the male condition... OK that's not true... I have been the knight in shining armour on occasions and have won a few battles, but so have women... this is not a gender thing to me... it is about skills, knowledge and experience.

As Kaz... when I am feeling as feminine as I can... I am not attracted to men. I see nothing attractive at all. They are mostly ignorant, arrogant neanderthals... OK there are exceptions! So, yeah, ambivalent is a good word... I certainly do not want to be in the 'lodge'... though I am starting to get attracted to my next door neighbour... but that is a different topic!

[kimdl93]

This pretty much describes my present life. My most frequent interactions with males are through work or through my wife's work. I don't have a regular bunch of buddies that I hang with. And really its been that way most of my adult life. I'm much more comfortable spending time with my wife and her female friends than I am with their husbands. Its simply because I don't share many of the males' interests....not that I dislike them.

On the other hand, when I'm back home, I put on my male mode and hang out with my sons and brothers doing the usual male bonding things. It works ok for me.

[elizabethamy]

As I look back I see this fairly continuous fade-out of my ability to be close friends with men. Even years before I became aware of my CD/TG/TS issues, I began to fall away from the world of men, however unintentionally -- excluded from certain male rituals such as golf games and gambling outings without knowing why, not getting promoted at work, being assigned the only desk occupied by a "professional staff" (male) person in the secretary pool, etc...

...but since my new self-awareness of my transgenderedness, I now see men as some kind of "other," and the hesitation to bond is at least as much mine as it is theirs. It's made me very self-conscious and deeply aware of how unmoored I am from my bodily gender. Leslie, I think this whole "bromance" thing is part of the hypermasculinity cult -- fitness, sports, macho beer commercials, sports talk radio, manly manly manly -- as response to the rise of women through feminism and the recognition that in a civilized modern society men are essentially unnecessary, or, at best, secondary.
Which makes those of us who have never been anything close to hypermasculine feel that much more alienated from the male world.

[Kate Simmons]

I also did all of the "rough and tumble" stuff as a youngin. However, I always secretly considered myself as a tomboy, really a girl who was pretending to be a boy. I shied away from most of the jock stuff and was my own person. I can get along with guys okay but for the most part don't classify myself these days. My current GG SO knows all about this and is okay with it. Sometimes it just takes a while to really get in touch with ourselves and discover who we are.

[Stephanie47]

I think what you have observed with yourself is pretty much the rule for older married men. The responsibilities of providing for a family and raising a family pretty much hinders social developments. How many hours are left in the week after performing those mandated activities? It seems there has to be some activity married guys have to share, for example weekend golfing or fishing. I have some leisure time activities/hobbies, but, there is nobody around who shares them. I love to build military models. There isn't a local club for that in my area. None of the activities I envision participating in require wearing a dress. That aspect of my life is intentionally private.

[Pythos]

Looking at the O.P. as well as the follow ups, this describes my life as well. I really don't like to be around the "typical" males though. I have male friends, but they are cosplayers, or Goths, and have much more "feminine" minds than the average male out there. I personally do not care about who won what game, or what sports team is moving to what stadium. This does not mean I don't recognize the team's importance to many, I just do not participate in them.
I love motor sports. The thing is, I dislike the participants in them. So this in effect limits my enjoyment of them.

On the other hand, I do not find myself wanting to be predominately around women either. There are many women out there I would rather do some horrible thing to myself than be around these examples of femininity. Some are way the hell too weak, or needy, others are much too controlled by what society dictates should be a "man". I just don't fit those descriptions. What I look for is an equal, and this has proven to be so hard.

It is evident I am not the typical male. I do my best to treat women equally, and this....can get me into trouble with both sexes. It really and truly sucks.

There are days I feel I was not meant for this life.

[sandra-leigh]

It has been a mix for me.

I had a good group of guy friends in high school and university, but we started drifting apart after graduation, and now they sometimes don't see each other for years until I come to visit and drag everyone together. I miss that easy commradery, I really do. And I am "different" enough from other people (always have been) that I don't find anything even remotely close these days.

I've been living in a different city for 20 years now, and I don't have any real male friends here; the closest I have is some of the people from the cross-dressing club. I don't know how to talk to "regular" guys. I find it easier to talk to women.

On the other hand, part of becoming a cross-dresser (now-a-days firmly TG) is that I started going out more socially, usually by myself. One of the social clubs in town has been fairly welcoming, and by going there, I have become acquaintances with more males and can talk to them to some degree -- guys who aren't living "standard" lives either. So in some ways I am relaxing about talking to males.

[outhiking]

I get along well with both genders, but I've never been able to pull of the macho thing very well. I stunk at most sports, but excelled at art and music and that's where I found my friends. I still hang out with guys more, but we are generally hiking or mountain biking and those activies aren't really gender specific.

[Beverley Sims]

I am not transgendered but I have never related as close to males as to females.
I have always had a closer union with females than with males.

[Allisa]

Well I started out as you said with the boy things in my youth,than puberty and the girl chasing thing mainly for one purpose only,than as one by one my buddies got married off and were banned from hanging out with me because of my bad inflence on them(drinking,smoking,cursing etc.).I was quite wild at that time.Lost contact with them and never really sought new friendships with other males.Allthough I have distanced myself from co-workers because I no longer partake of the things that seem to be needed for friendship with them,i.e. drinking,smoking and single mindedness,and lack of acceptance of other lifestyles.I also believe that as I age my aggression has waned,maybe with the help of Lisa.I still have a strong male side but with softer,rounder edges that I think may be offsetting to most males,yet more attractive to females there by my few friends are female and they know about me(Lisa).I still have my male inclinations to what I enjoy doing,work,hobbies etc..,I still do not get totally engaged in female banter I still find it kind of foreign but not as much as I used to,I can hold my own in a conversation but in a group,square peg.I quess in a nut shell my answer is yes.

[wanagione]

I started out the same way as a child. Playing hockey, football, ect. Then I gradually turned away from all of that. I really don;t even watch sports anymore. I don't have any male friends. even when I was growing up, I would hang with my mom and aunts at family events. Today I work with mostly all woman, im a nurse .

[AllieSF]

Since I am a late starter in this lifestyle, I really haven't noticed any change. I have some male friends, more like acquaintances and the same goes for female friends. Since I prefer a woman as a mate, I am naturally drawn to talk more with them and make that extra effort to make contact. I moved a lot during my professional life and therefore found it difficult to maintain good relationships long distance. When out I have no problem talking to men or women. I basically let my natural personality and character come out no matter how I am dressed.

[Marie-Elise]

This is a great question.

I live in a place where gender norms are pretty much old school. Men get together and do stuff. Women get together and do stuff. And then families get together and do stuff.

I get together with guys around me regularly and I have a good time with them. However, I do not get into the intricacies of sports to where I know who was traded to wherever. I just know them from a high level.

Having said that, it does put me in a different place with women around me. I get along with them as a friend and even flirt with some of them. However, no matter how much I like hanging out with them, I do have to watch that I don't do it in the wrong way. For example, when we get together as families, eventually, the women will separate and go do something and leave all the men alone.

I don't mind this. I just think it is interesting that it happens without anyone saying anything about it.

[GaleWarning]

My personality is androgynous. I get on equally well (or badly?) with all people. I can talk rugby with the guys and lingerie with the ladies. As a teacher, I have gone through life with the understanding that we are all ... well ... humans.

I am firmly heterosexual, though. Love women in that sense!

[Leslie Langford]

As I look back I see this fairly continuous fade-out of my ability to be close friends with men. Even years before I became aware of my CD/TG/TS issues, I began to fall away from the world of men, however unintentionally -- excluded from certain male rituals such as golf games and gambling outings without knowing why, not getting promoted at work, being assigned the only desk occupied by a "professional staff" (male) person in the secretary pool, etc...

...but since my new self-awareness of my transgenderedness, I now see men as some kind of "other," and the hesitation to bond is at least as much mine as it is theirs. It's made me very self-conscious and deeply aware of how unmoored I am from my bodily gender. Leslie, I think this whole "bromance" thing is part of the hypermasculinity cult -- fitness, sports, macho beer commercials, sports talk radio, manly manly manly -- as response to the rise of women through feminism and the recognition that in a civilized modern society men are essentially unnecessary, or, at best, secondary.
Which makes those of us who have never been anything close to hypermasculine feel that much more alienated from the male world.

Great response, eliza, and I can totally identify with what you say here. In fact, the very points you make in your reply were probably in the back of my mind as well when I formulated my original post, but I didn't articulate them nearly as well as you did.

I, too, had a number of setbacks in the course of my career, missed opportunities, and being passed over for promotions because - even though I was an exemplary employee and manager, always gave 110%, and my performance was generally above reproach - I just "didn't play the game" as well as the other alpha males around me, and consequently got overlooked. At the time, I didn't connect the dots, but now in retrospect, it becomes abundantly clear why things went off the rails for me career-wise.

Who knew that in the business world today, competence and job knowledge are of only secondary concern. Nowadays, it is all about politics, alliances, @ss-kissing, and grandstanding. And the biggest prize invariably goes to the biggest bullsh%tter. True leadership and accountability seem to have become archaic concepts, key decisions are typically made by only by committees, focus groups, and "cross-functional teams", and senior executives these day act more like anchormen - they only report the news, and rarely make it themselves.

This is also why so many women still hit a glass ceiling career-wise in what otherwise remains a largely male-dominated business world with the inevitable, exclusive "old boys' networks". So, yet another reason why I identify more with women than with men...

[ReineD]

Leslie, if you don't mind, I'd like to add a perspective from my observations of the men in my life and the other men that I know who are not trans, to provide a comparison.

Agreed, it is easier to make friends when one is young. My sons have all kinds of friends their ages to do things with, and I frequently see groups of young guys together whenever I go out. But then something happens. They get married, and if they don't stay in touch locally with friends from college or early adulthood, if they move to embark on careers elsewhere, the circle of friends seem to be limited to "couples". And the men rarely bond together as much as the women do, or at least this has been my observation and experience.

My ex who is not trans, does not have any male friends either, other than an old college buddy he talks to once per year. He has tons of business acquaintances, people to have lunches with or have a beer with after work on a Friday (although I would never imagine any deeper bonding than the stereotypical small talk), but socially when we were married he never did things just with the male halves of the couples we socialized with; whereas I did lots of things with the female halves and we knew every detail of our respective lives ... but this was more during the week so as to not take up time evenings and weekends when it was family time. So the only time my ex would see these guys was when we wives organized a social evening and then we all spent the time together. The ex is living alone now and does not spend his time on the weekends hanging out with his married acquaintances, who rather spend the time with their wives. Frankly, I no longer spend time with my married female acquaintances either, since they are busy doing "couples" things and I feel like a third wheel, unless my current SO is with me.

So is the issue particular to CDs/TGs, or do most men lack close male friends after they're married?

[Leslie Langford]

There is much truth to what you say, Reine, and I have observed the same phenomenon among many non-CDing men that I know as well. It probably comes down to the fact that by their very nature, most females are far more relationship-oriented than men given that in the past, biology, evolution, and gender socialization has largely assigned them the role of "nesters" and nurturers, and as we all know, "it takes a village to raise a child..".

On the other hand, men were programmed eons ago to be the hunter-gatherers who had to sit quietly hidden in the bushes for hours on end until some wayward mastodon or sabre-toothed tiger came along that they could pounce on and kill for dinner. Not much opportunity for chit-chat and relationship building there

So you're right, Reine - we CDers already start off with a handicap by virtue of our very sex when it comes to basic social skills and forming intimate bonds with others.

But I would also submit that while many "real" men might want to form deeper bonds with their counterparts whom they are already friends with superficially ("a friend helps you move, a real friend helps you move a body )", they often feel awkward in doing so and in taking the first step. We CDer's, on the other hand, typically lack even that particular motivation since we find that we have far more in common with other women than with our fellow man.

[ReineD]

There is hope though, Leslie. More men are staying home now to take care of the kids, in fact there was an article about this recently in the New York Times.

I know that over the years I have witnessed my sons talking about more than sports, beer, and sex with girls to their friends. They would discuss everything together ... their anguish about their parents' divorces, or troubles at school or at their jobs, or a sad breakup with a girl. So it's not as if men can't talk about what is close to their hearts. They just need to give themselves permission to carry this into adulthood and maybe the narrowing of the gender roles, with more men becoming the primary care givers or at least sharing equally in the household responsibilities, will help.

And CDs/TGs can lead the way!

[kimdl93]

So is the issue particular to CDs/TGs, or do most men lack close male friends after they're married?

Interesting question. I know a lot of men who maintain very strong and large networks of friends, both male and female. And others, like myself, who have a much smaller circle of intimate acquaintances. I don't think that is unique to CDs/TGs, rather more a matter of personality.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Leslie, I feel comfortable setting and talking with a group of ladies.

[Leslie Langford]

There is hope though, Leslie. More men are staying home now to take care of the kids, in fact there was an article about this recently in the New York Times.

I know that over the years I have witnessed my sons talking about more than sports, beer, and sex with girls to their friends. They would discuss everything together ... their anguish about their parents' divorces, or troubles at school or at their jobs, or a sad breakup with a girl. So it's not as if men can't talk about what is close to their hearts. They just need to give themselves permission to carry this into adulthood and maybe the narrowing of the gender roles, with more men becoming the primary care givers or at least sharing equally in the household responsibilities, will help.

And CDs/TGs can lead the way!

I always suspected that we CDers/TGs were on the leading (bleeding? ) edge of gender-based role evolution, Reine. Now if we could only convince the rest of the world that our "uniqueness" was a positive attribute and one to be learned from and emulated, rather than still be the object of derision, scorn, and transphobia in some quarters...

[drushin703]

Ms leslie: I know where your coming from with this post. I dont exactly shun my male friends but if one would unexpectedly knock on my door, I
wouldn't let them in. I consider myself both male and female eventhough the female part of me is sans genitalia and more alter-ego than actual
self. If you come in my home expect to see the droppings of both of those birds.

It's complicated to explain and complex to act out. I never hang out with the boys, cackling at girls, knocking down beers (I have never drank a beer in my life)
or giving high-fives. And at this stage in my life I dont wish to know any additional males as friends, as aqaintances or as anything else, unless ofcourse
your a crossdresser. And eventhough I am a male 90 percent of the time and dressed as one 99percent of the time, I would much rather prefer being
female 10percent of the time and dressed as one on the few occasions I can. Love you, dana

[ReineD]

I always suspected that we CDers/TGs were on the leading (bleeding? ) edge of gender-based role evolution, Reine. Now if we could only convince the rest of the world that our "uniqueness" was a positive attribute and one to be learned from and emulated, rather than still be the object of derision, scorn, and transphobia in some quarters...

Hear, hear!

I'm not sure about the non-CDers ever accepting male feminine styles (although this could happen), but I'm quite certain that non-CDing males will increasingly become more sensitive as individuals. Well, they already do have that capacity, it just takes a redefinition of what a "man" is supposed to be, which is happening now anyway because of the gains that women are making in higher education and the workforce ... and also having this silly taboo removed that men must be stoic all the time.