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Thread: The Drag Queen Dilemma...

  1. #1
    Member Megan_Renee's Avatar
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    The Drag Queen Dilemma...

    Over on Reddit there was a recent discussion about RuPaul's shows being non-helpful for the trans community. Looking for it now I can't find it (of course), but it sparked an interesting thought process in my pea-brain.

    The TG folks on Reddit (mostly TS, but still TG), do not seem to like drag queens as a general rule. There is some belief that drag queens are bad for transgender rights, almost as if queens are mocking us. I don't get this vibe at all from Drag Race, rather they talk a lot about LGTB-Q issues, sometimes bringing family into the story.

    I feel like men dressing as women will spark controversy and bring about awareness to gender variance regardless of the motivation for doing so. The same is true of FTM individuals (of whom there are many on Reddit).

    What do you all think? Are queens and kings bad for awareness and rights of the transgendered community?

  2. #2
    New Member ThereseW's Avatar
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    I weigh in on the side of the drag queens and kings. The Cirque du Soleil show Zumanity is hosted by a drag queen - it was a few years ago but she was convincing and kind of hot. . I was there with business guests and clearly they didn't know she was a drag queen. I had it figured out right away - but being a CD I I have a kind of radar for that. Through the show she really connected with the audience, in a funny, sassy, spunky and sexy kind of way. By the end of the show the whole audience was in on the drag queen thing, and it really broke down some barriers. Huge standing ovation. My point is that the drag queen thing can be done to shock and exploit (and maybe that's the reality show deal), or it can be done to break down those barriers to the non TG world. And some modern theater does a great job in breaking down those barriers. Who didn't cry when Angel died in "Rent"?

  3. #3
    Gold Member Cynthia Anne's Avatar
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    I personally don't think it's much of an issue! I know of some DQ's that do treat TG's just fine When my gay brother was alive I met many of them and we got along just fine with them knowing I was TG!
    If you don't like the way I'm livin', you just leave this long haired country girl alone:

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    Silver Member STACY B's Avatar
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    I think we should Bring um ALL in ,,Who the HELL are we to say who is right an who is wrong ,,,Lets be one big happy family . More the Merrier ,,, Hell we could learn alot from them ,,I love Drag Queens ,,, They are CRAZY an don't care ,,,, Many Hands Make's Lite Work !!!
    Yull Find Out !!! lol,,,,

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    A drag queen is not trying to blend as a woman, they are for entertainment and way over the top. They are not helpful to gaining acceptance for crossdressers in general. They are, I believe, what most people think of when they think of crossdressing and that is not "us".

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    I KEEP HEARING TS call DQ/CD/TV sick or and gay

    they forgot where they came from and who they are

    I think the whole I am better then you cause I feel like a woman and I have boobs or silicone hips/butt is crazy

    BEWARE THERE ARE SOME HOMOPHOBIC GAYS OUT THERE!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaChXj0wjbs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsVpdBIi1BU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjAVa9RAfWQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzdwLdNvOzk



    Last edited by luscious; 10-10-2012 at 09:22 PM.

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    Homophobic Men Most Aroused by Gay Male Porn
    Homophobia Associated with Penis Arousal to Male on Male Sex
    Published on June 9, 2011 by Nathan A. Heflick in The Big Questions

    Even a man who thought that women want to have sex with their fathers and that women spend much of their lives distraught because they lack a penis is right sometimes. This person, the legend that is Sigmund Freud, theorized that people often have the most hateful and negative attitudes towards things they secretly crave, but feel that they shouldn't have.

    If Freud is right, then perhaps men who are the most opposed to male homosexuality have particularly strong homosexual urges for other men.

    One study asked heterosexal men how comfortable and anxious they are around gay men. Based on these scores, they then divided these men into two groups: men that are homophobic, and men who are not. These men were then shown three, four-minute videos. One video depicted straight sex, one depicted lesbian sex and one depicted gay male sex. While this was happening, a device was attached to each participant's penis. This device has been found to be triggered by sexual arousal, but not other types of arousal (such as nervousness, or fear - arousal often has a very different meaning in psychology than in popular usage).
    Related Articles

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    When viewing lesbian sex and straight sex, both the homophobic and the non-homophobic men showed increased penis circumference. For gay male sex, however, only the homophobic men showed heightened penis arousal.

    Heterosexual men with the most anti-gay attitudes, when asked, reported not being sexually aroused by gay male sex videos. But, their penises reported otherwise.

    Homophobic men were the most sexually aroused by gay male sex acts.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-gay-male-porn

  8. #8
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan_Renee View Post
    Over on Reddit there was a recent discussion about RuPaul's shows being non-helpful for the trans community. Looking for it now I can't find it (of course), but it sparked an interesting thought process in my pea-brain.

    The TG folks on Reddit (mostly TS, but still TG), do not seem to like drag queens as a general rule. There is some belief that drag queens are bad for transgender rights, almost as if queens are mocking us. I don't get this vibe at all from Drag Race, rather they talk a lot about LGTB-Q issues, sometimes bringing family into the story.

    I feel like men dressing as women will spark controversy and bring about awareness to gender variance regardless of the motivation for doing so. The same is true of FTM individuals (of whom there are many on Reddit).

    What do you all think? Are queens and kings bad for awareness and rights of the transgendered community?
    Drag Queens and Drag Kings are only bad for the awareness and rights of the Transgendered community if YOU think they are! As far as I am concerned, I don't really concern myslef with them. I have known some Drag Queens in the past, and they were pretty nice people. Not really my type, but so what!

    As CD's, we are all members of the TG community! But who cares!! What matters is who we are and what we do!! Labels don't mean squat!!
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

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    I don't know enough about them but otherwise I've never felt they caused anything bad...

  10. #10
    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    Isn't drag just performance art?
    They don't have to represent anyone, they're performing an act for entertainment.

    Sorry, but if someone's views on transpeople come from a drag show then what does that say about them?
    Sane people base their opinions on facts and reason, others should be ignored since they don't even bother to do the proper research.

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    One thing you should remember is that many TSs want to be fully accepted as ggs---and blend in with other women---most drag queens, on the other hand, like to stand out and draw attention to themselves--the effort is to look as glamorous as possible but not necessarily to pass. that being said, I'm in favor of everybody, including drag queens, expressing their feminine side--it does raise everybody's level of awareness
    [SIZE="4"][/SIZE]

  12. #12
    Silver Member noeleena's Avatar
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    Hi,

    The people who are acting in a performance on stage are just that acting in line with what we are talking about ,& yes ill say they are good at it, where the difference comes in is most are men those iv seen & no they do not seek to be women they are over the top in dress colour & how they do things , i have no interest in them other than seeing them on stage, or did,

    They do not represent me as a woman or any of my women friends & never will , so wheres the problem, i dont see one go back to the ww 2 we had our men act for the troops entertinment ,

    We need to look at the overall pic here, im not trans , so it does not have a bearing on myself , & those who are, are they so insecure that they can not just be who they are, so what if those.... other.... people do call names & throw insults whos the stronger person they that do it or those who know who they are in them selfs.

    what makes a person stronger being a wimp & belittleing others or the one who lives thier own life & can walk on by with out a thought for them, i know whos very insecure, & its sure not this kid,

    ...noeleena...

  13. #13
    Senior Member mikiSJ's Avatar
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    My thoughts are that drag queens are who most people see first and many of those mostly male individuals tend to be repulsed, if not also perversely amused, by the 'over the top' appearance of the performers. These first impressions stay and when some of these individuals meet someone who is CD/TG/TS they find it difficult to see the difference between the stage act and those who are trying to fit into a real life situation.

    I enjoy drag performances along with my wife. It took my wife a couple of years to understand that I like to dress as a lady, not as a drag queen.

    Miki

  14. #14
    Complex Lolita...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan_Renee
    Over on Reddit there was a recent discussion about RuPaul's shows being non-helpful for the trans community. What do you all think? Are queens and kings bad for awareness and rights of the transgendered community?
    [SIZE="2"]I think this is the “face” of MtF crossdressing that TV presents to everyone, and you need to think WHY that is, or who is manipulating visibility in this manner. I was watching LOGO one night, and I saw a commercial (a promo) for RuPaul’s Drag Race All Stars, which consisted of a series of hideous, bizarre creatures, one after the other, visually SCREAMING for attention. I would have been appalled, but I know what’s going on, and it has nothing to do with my branch of MtF crossdressing...

    Unfortunately, this is what people get to see, and it makes any understanding or…ahem…acceptance that much more difficult to achieve, if the latter is important to one’s existence. When people see drag types jockeying for attention to win ridiculous “acclaim,” how can anyone possibly appreciate my need for privacy, secrecy, beauty, and self-respect? If RuPaul’s world beckons someone to explore the CD/TG world, I don’t see any harm in it, but if “drag” is the only ongoing visible face of MtF crossdressing then we, as a community, are being misrepresented BIG time…

    BTW, I’ve never heard of a drag KING…
    [/SIZE]

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    This discussion does remind me of a situation I may have mentioned on the boards a long time ago but am not sure. A gay friend/coworker of my sister has been known to crossdress. Like in a gay parade he bought a dress specifically for the event. But from what I understand he doesn't do it for the enjoyment, or desire but because he believes he should cause he's gay. And I don't like when people fule these stereotypes. For instance I once had a classmate assume I was gay/bi because I once refered to myself as madam jokingly. I then explained to her gender identity an sexuality are 2 seperate things, and it took alot of convincing. This was before I had an interest in cding but even then I didn't like the assuptions being formed. Although I have nothing against people of alternative sexualities I just see everyone who cd's being linked to this. And we are all different.
    Last edited by Mythic; 10-11-2012 at 03:39 AM.

  16. #16
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whowhatwhen View Post
    Sorry, but if someone's views on transpeople come from a drag show then what does that say about them?
    Sane people base their opinions on facts and reason, others should be ignored since they don't even bother to do the proper research.
    The problem is that most people don't get to see the facts. Their only information about men who wish to present in a gender opposite than birth often comes from DQs, and this is why so many people believe that most CDers are gay and they dress in order to attract men. This presents a problem for the married CDers who just need to dress in order to express an innate femininity.
    Reine

  17. #17
    The Girl Next Door Sally24's Avatar
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    Many of the original drag queens in the 50's and 60's were TS trying to find a way to express themselves and be employed. Even today it's not unusual to find the more realistic DQ are TG or TS. If they have had body modifications then that's a big clue.

    I think the over the top ones have as much in common with a crossdresser as does a Vegas show girl with your average house wife. If someone wants to assume that all DQs are gay and that they have anything in common with transgendered people then they are simply uniformed. I don't think they are bad for us but I don't think they help us much either.
    Sally

  18. #18
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    The person doing drag shows does it for the art of impersonation.
    The cross dresser dresses to gain pleasure out of the past time.
    The trans sexual is there due to a mind/body mix up that occurred early in life or at birth.
    There is a crossover here, the drag queen was probably interested in cross dressing and wished to become an actor and enter show business.
    Body enhancements come with the game as most good ones are so competitive and would scratch the other one's eyes out to gain success on the stage.
    There are those that are sympathetic towards other peoples dressing habits and there are gay drag queens.
    Gay people are all there throughout the acting spectrum. It also compliments the acting game. (Theatrically Articulate.) Copyright Beverley Sims...Years ago.
    Those that do not understand or are pompous cretins will want to scratch your eyes out as well.
    Remember there is a gulf between those transitioning and those that just love to dress girly.
    Interests in all three sections of humanity are so different.
    One wants to be a success on stage.
    The other is on medication that is messing with her mind (usually for years).
    And the the third uses it as a recreational activity.
    Gee! I hope I don't cause an argument, my nails are not long enough at the moment and my wig falls off easily.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

  19. #19
    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan_Renee View Post
    What do you all think? Are queens and kings bad for awareness and rights of the transgendered community?
    That's not their mission. They are entertainers and get paid for what they do. Apparently enough people like that entertainment to support it. Let's see how they dress and make up when the money stops coming in.

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    In transmission whowhatwhen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    The problem is that most people don't get to see the facts. Their only information about men who wish to present in a gender opposite than birth often comes from DQs, and this is why so many people believe that most CDers are gay and they dress in order to attract men. This presents a problem for the married CDers who just need to dress in order to express an innate femininity.
    Yes, but why entertain them?
    If they're so shallow as to form a concrete opinion of an entire group based on drag shows and you have difficulty educating them otherwise then why bother?

    I really don't like the idea of drag queens (or anyone) having to change anything about themselves because someone else might get the wrong idea.
    This is exactly along the same lines as thinking TG people shouldn't be having sex (or at least, shaming those who tape it) because it's "giving CDers a bad name and confusing our wives."

    If someone wants to be a warrior for social justice then that's great, but not everyone wants to and neither should we expect them to.

  21. #21
    Member Darla's Avatar
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    I know this isn't the right forum, but has anyone asked the Drag performers if we're bad for their image? Ha! I'll answer for them and they'd say that we need to lighten up and get I've ourselves. I have nothing against drag performers or anything in that orbit - they're all sisters and I gladly welcome them to our merry group - the more the merrier. If they are decidedly gay then they understand the fear and isolation o not understanding who you are, and I'd they're drag performers they might have some great makeup tips.

    What I disagree to is their depictions on reality TV. In fact I object to most reality tV. It's all so hyper dramatized it fits right into the stereotype of drag shows. There's a reason they show screeching harpies going after one another - it makes for ratings and panders to the lowest common denominator.

    Now if they were to have a reality show about real TS's or crossdressers, it could be a real ratings monster if you include all the conflicts we have with our spouses and our own self-loathing!

    Darla

  22. #22
    Aspiring Member Violetgray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    [SIZE="2"]I think this is the “face” of MtF crossdressing that TV presents to everyone, and you need to think WHY that is, or who is manipulating visibility in this manner. I was watching LOGO one night, and I saw a commercial (a promo) for RuPaul’s Drag Race All Stars, which consisted of a series of hideous, bizarre creatures, one after the other, visually SCREAMING for attention. I would have been appalled, but I know what’s going on, and it has nothing to do with my branch of MtF crossdressing...

    Unfortunately, this is what people get to see, and it makes any understanding or…ahem…acceptance that much more difficult to achieve, if the latter is important to one’s existence. When people see drag types jockeying for attention to win ridiculous “acclaim,” how can anyone possibly appreciate my need for privacy, secrecy, beauty, and self-respect? If RuPaul’s world beckons someone to explore the CD/TG world, I don’t see any harm in it, but if “drag” is the only ongoing visible face of MtF crossdressing then we, as a community, are being misrepresented BIG time…

    BTW, I’ve never heard of a drag KING…
    [/SIZE]
    I think it is quite a leap in logic to assume that watching an art designed for entertainment has a direct impact on other's rights to your privacy. And really? You would describe them as hideous? Why are they bizarre, because they're gay and wear women's clothing at the same time? As far as drag kings, finding this took about two seconds:

    http://sdkingsclub.com/

  23. #23
    Aspiring Member Desiree2bababe's Avatar
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    How can they be bad for awareness? They are always the hit of the parades!

  24. #24
    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violetgray View Post
    And really? You would describe them as hideous?
    Hideous, like beauty (sorry for mixing nouns and adjectives) is in the eye of the beholder. I like beauty, and I guess I like hideous, too.

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    reinforce typical sterotype that all CD's are gay..but even i must admit they would enliven any boring party

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