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Thread: And he's having a latté

  1. #26
    Silver Member Inna's Avatar
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    I wish I could be oblivious to the subject at hand, but no, I have ONE as well!!! A friend, and a good man, my business buddy with whom I have spent long hours discussing from bottom lines to our dismay with our wifes, lol.

    Now, every time I visit his office, we have a great time talking however, I am still HE in his verbal expression. I correct him every time and we laugh, so it isn't really bothersome, or at least it seems that way, but YES, it is bothersome to me, as he has no reason to address me as HE other then inability to let go the memory of a long gone pall.

    And so I have withheld from my visits simply because I just don't want to hear him address me that way, in the sense it is kind of weird that he would still do such while looking at a naturally looking female?!?!?!?!

    What is more interesting, is the question as to what mechanism is responsible for this behavior, as it doesn't feel intentional, yet when I showed up for the first time in 2 years in his office he approached me and said: "may I help you maam" I smiled, and said "Hi Alex, do you remember me?" he was simply oblivious to who I was and I kept him guessing for a while, I was simply amused by the process. Him being a ladies man, I got him to the point that when I told him that I have a very serious message, he froze stiff in his chair, and I could tell he was afraid that he might be a father, lol.
    Anyway, after my reveal, he started to call me HE, so it certainly is a puzzle of a mechanism at work. Is it his denial of what happened with me?????
    Last edited by Inna; 10-15-2012 at 06:08 PM.

  2. #27
    In some cases it could simply be a habit, e.g. I find it difficult to address myself as female when talking with people I know for so long, but I've no problem doing it with the rest.
    "I'm not sure. But I'll never know unless I give it a shot."

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saffron View Post
    In some cases it could simply be a habit, e.g. I find it difficult to address myself as female when talking with people I know for so long, but I've no problem doing it with the rest.
    It's not really a question of them and their habits. It's about me and how I feel, and having my illusions shattered. I have transitioned completely, SRS and legal papers and everything. I pass no problem, so do I want to feel that hurt? Is it worth it? Is it just internalized transphobia?

    Even when everything is done, there is still plenty to learn, assess and deal with. Transition does not end at SRS, unfortunately.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  4. #29
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    When I transitioned and these faux pas happened, I told the persons that they had two years to get it right. I correct it every time, even judges.

    Times up in 6.5 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saffron View Post
    In some cases it could simply be a habit, e.g. I find it difficult to address myself as female when talking with people I know for so long, but I've no problem doing it with the rest.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  5. #30
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    I wish to say something here about Frances, please. I know Frances. I am proud and honored to be her friend. Even though she uses the words herself, Frances does not "pass". Frances IS.

    Frances is a woman. A complete and total woman. Frances does not "pass" as a woman. Frances is a woman.

    Stephie

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenie S View Post
    I wish to say something here about Frances, please. I know Frances. I am proud and honored to be her friend. Even though she uses the words herself, Frances does not "pass". Frances IS.

    Frances is a woman. A complete and total woman. Frances does not "pass" as a woman. Frances is a woman.

    Stephie
    Here here. I skyped with Frances and she is definitely not trans. She is a woman.

  7. #32
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    Apropos of this thread and apropos of this topic, I had an interesting incident happen at work his evening.

    One of my patients in the hospital (a man) told me that one of the LNAs (nurse's aids) had told him that I was a lesbian. His comment to me was, "I don't care what you are, I like you anyway."

    After a short discussion with my patient about how I did not hide my sexual preference, I went right to the nursing supervisor and lodged a formal complaint. Sexual preferences and sexual identity are totally inappropriate subjects for discussion on the job in any hospital. Nearly every LNA on duty this evening came to me later on and told me they were sorry that this had happened. Obviously, the supervisor had acted quickly.

    Was this a confusion of terms? Did my patient really mean something else? Remember, it was a scant three days ago that an LNA had insisted on referring to me as HE to the patient we were caring for together. It think there is quite possibly some connection here.

    In any case it was refreshing to experience such a quick response to my complaint.

    S

  8. #33
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bree-asaurus View Post
    Here here. I skyped with Frances and she is definitely not trans. She is a woman.
    A woman who has a LOT of "toys". Seriously, she has a lot of toys. ...What?
    Quote Originally Posted by STACY B
    At least there is social acceptance in being a drunk in our world. Hell I was good at it too.
    Melissa Hobbes
    www.badtranny.com

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    A woman who has a LOT of "toys". Seriously, she has a lot of toys. ...What?
    I have a lot of toys too. I sold some of my biggest to people who don't mind my used toys. But they were used when I bought them anyway!

  10. #35
    Silver Member Inna's Avatar
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    Huh, what??? Toys, do you mean.......ehhhhh..........do you???? By the way on the subject, I am gettin a camera for my S...e

  11. #36
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    Nope cos that is a banned topic
    Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said

    The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another

  12. #37
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    Before I get bombarded with PM's, we are talking about the robot from Lost in Space, Gumby and a sexy beardless black GI Joe from the 60's who is not equiped to please me or Barbie.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    Before I get bombarded with PM's, we are talking about the robot from Lost in Space, Gumby and a sexy beardless black GI Joe from the 60's who is not equiped to please me or Barbie.
    Oh, is that what they are calling them these days?

  14. #39
    Just a girl on a trip cyndigurl45's Avatar
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    Frances, have you expressed your sexual feelings towards your friends?

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyndigurl45 View Post
    Frances, have you expressed your sexual feelings towards your friends?
    Like I said earlier, the dynamic that is missing, I get with most men who did not know me before. I don't necessarily want these guys to hit on me, but to be nice to me, to look at me like other guys do.

    In the case of the latté guy, I have explained to him that I did not become a woman on February 21st, 2011, the day of my surgery. I was a girl 20, 30, 40 years ago as well. They could not see it, but I viewed them through this prism. And since I tend to be attracted to people I feel comfortable with, they were the actors in my fantasies. I did tell latté guy that he had been present in my mind on such occasions.

    I don't have sexual feelings towards them, but I have on occasion pictured them in my mind while... you know. Now that I am visible woman, I hope they will "see me" (as in Avatar) like new men in my life "see me" (even the ones that find out that I am trans). I don't expect them to want me, but the hurt comes when I realize they don't even see the girl in front of them.

    I don't want people to adapt to me. I do want respect, but what good is it if they use correct pronouns and the correct name while using he and my old name when I am not around? It is I who has to make a decision. I can be stealth as much as I want as long as I am not around people who knew me, but that means staying away from the things I am most passionate about.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  16. #41
    Aspiring Member Anna Lorree's Avatar
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    Frances,

    I'm very sorry you are now confronted by this. To be honest, it is one of the things I fear about transitioning. I work in a career field where it is basically impossible to just move to a new area and get a job. Everything is regimented, and at the level I function, my resume will have to follow me. To make matters worse, I have no other field that I can step into at anything close to my current pay and benefit level. As such, I am kind of stuck. This is part of the reason I am back in school, but even this is a long-term solution to a mid-term problem. I can sympathize, and someday I will probably be able to relate.

    Anna
    "If you're going through Hell, keep going."
    -Winston Churchill

  17. #42
    Just a girl on a trip cyndigurl45's Avatar
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    I am in know way trying to over simplify things or make light of the situation and please, please don't take this the wrong way, not knowing my personality has it's disadvantages.

    I would invite them over one at a time over a bottle of wine or if there beer guys a beer, starting a conversation about nothing, strip down completely naked and ask what do you see? do you see anything male here? but like I said that's what I would do......

  18. #43
    Aspiring Member Anna Lorree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyndigurl45 View Post
    I am in know way trying to over simplify things or make light of the situation and please, please don't take this the wrong way, not knowing my personality has it's disadvantages.

    I would invite them over one at a time over a bottle of wine or if there beer guys a beer, starting a conversation about nothing, strip down completely naked and ask what do you see? do you see anything male here? but like I said that's what I would do......
    BWAHAhahahahahahaha!!!!!! Wow!
    "If you're going through Hell, keep going."
    -Winston Churchill

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyndigurl45 View Post
    I am in know way trying to over simplify things or make light of the situation and please, please don't take this the wrong way, not knowing my personality has it's disadvantages.

    I would invite them over one at a time over a bottle of wine or if there beer guys a beer, starting a conversation about nothing, strip down completely naked and ask what do you see? do you see anything male here? but like I said that's what I would do......
    I guess that is one way of getting their attention.

  20. #45
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    I don't want people to adapt to me. I do want respect, but what good is it if they use correct pronouns and the correct name while using he and my old name when I am not around?
    I would suggest that perhaps even that's not quite it.

    My FTM friend, it isn't so difficult for me to use male pronouns in conversation or email to other people, as in those situations I have those extra couple of seconds for an additional layer of mental processing to step in and adjust the pronoun, sometimes consciously and sometimes before just before that. But when I'm thinking to myself, talking to myself, then I have problems, as in some ways my mental model of him has not adjusted. Even when I see a very recent picture of him, complete with a bit of a beard, my mind first says "Mismatch!" and only then "No, that's who they are now." Even as I type this, my thought-formation keeps inserting "she" and then another part of my mind is playing Wack-a-mole and hammering down with a "No, it's 'He'!"

    Using correct pronouns with you in person, and with other people when you are not present, is respectful, but if I have understood what you are saying about "seeing you" as a woman, you are hoping that their internal mental models will adjust so that you are internally considered female even before any "censoring".

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandra-leigh View Post
    I would suggest that perhaps even that's not quite it.

    Using correct pronouns with you in person, and with other people when you are not present, is respectful, but if I have understood what you are saying about "seeing you" as a woman, you are hoping that their internal mental models will adjust so that you are internally considered female even before any "censoring".
    I am pretty sure I said the exact same thing.

    I have noticed a lot of posts concentrate on "them" and what they should or should not do in respect to me and my identity, and their thoughts. These posts are missing the point. I am talking about my feelings, my subjectivity, and what I need to do for myself in the face of a life situation, post-transition. A lot of questions have been asked and with every answer comes a little more interpretation of the problem from various people.

    Here it is again:

    Say you transitioned completely. You got the vagina. The birth certificate, the drivers's licence, the diplomas, etc., and everything else has been changed. You live stealth most of the time because the size of your city makes it possible (Montreal is the size of Boston). You gave up on aspects of your life where you were well known, but find yourself miserable for having done so, and you miss it. Going back to it means encountering people who knew you before and people who may not know that you have transitioned.

    Since you see yourself as a woman and never dwell on your gender, you are surprised when people make it very obvious that they think you are not a woman, and it hurts big time, especially if you expect the regular male-female dynamic where sex is always on the table somewhat.

    Do you keep on avoiding these people and not do what you like? Do you endure being treated as a guy? Do you worry about half a room knowing and the half not? Do you wonder if any of them will have the balls of steel required to date you while knowing that all the other guys think you are a guy?
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  22. #47
    Just a girl on a trip cyndigurl45's Avatar
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    In all seriousness you have to be happy, perhaps the reason why you had to become a woman on the outside as well, I am a very optimistic kinda girl so when faced with the half the room question knowing that half the room knows I'm a woman is like saying the glass is half full, the other half in very short order (by my actions) will know that I am a woman. I had a close friend tell me once surround yourself with like minded people, you can't tell me that those few close minded "friends" are the only people in the industry Look at Kim Petra?? is it..... Soon you will find new people, people that know the woman you are and the music you play.

  23. #48
    Formerly Deborah Whitney
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    If I may, I'd like to add my two cents.

    Frances, please do not avoid those who you considered friends. Give them a fair shake .. you may have to give them a couple years of adjustment time ... if you think it's worth it.

    I personally have so few friends that I would tend to think it's worth it.

    For instance, there's this friend of mine, "Jackie" -- I knew her before and after her transition. We weren't great friends, but we worked together. I must say that pre-transition, I had no idea.

    When I first met her, post-transition, I mistakenly called her "John" one time. I was mortified; here I was, dressed as a woman, putting her on the same plane of existence when I knew she was completely transitioned. Although I am sure it hurt, she forgave me quickly, and kept on being a friend. It was a huge boon to me, to be forgiven for that blunder, and I took it quite seriously, and made a serious effort to not let that happen again. It has taken time, but I have grown up enough now that I can see Jackie for the woman she's always been, and I can't tell you how much that means to me.

    She enlarged my world by simply forgiving my slip-up, and we moved on.

    Not saying it's not difficult; not saying it's not worth it sometimes. It surely was worth it to me, though.

  24. #49
    Frances, I wish I had an answer for all that questions. I'm thinking in moving to another country once I full transition. As I said I'm in a similar situation in my career, and I don't want to change my profession.

    It really sucks.

    Wish you all the best, and sorry for not having anything better to say.
    "I'm not sure. But I'll never know unless I give it a shot."

  25. #50
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Your friend does think of you as Frances now (as opposed to your old male name). His trouble is that he is having to rewrite his memory bank since at the current time, he still has more personal memories of you from before, than recent memories that date post-transition, if you haven't spent a lot of time with him. It's just a question of time and exposure, before your friend builds a new database of new memories of you as Frances.

    I guarantee you that when this happens, it will not occur to him to refer to you as "he".

    It's like getting used to a new house, (if you'll pardon the poor analogy). We move in, we know where all the rooms are from the onset, but it still seems strange and not like home for a few weeks. And then before you know it, it feels like home. The memories of the old house have dimmed. Not only that, but after a period of time when we go back to our old houses, THEY feel strange and not home for us any more.

    You need to spend a lot of time with your friend and you'll see, it will all be OK.

    Reine

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