And he's having a latté

[AllieSF]

Do you keep on avoiding these people and not do what you like? Do you endure being treated as a guy? Do you worry about half a room knowing and the half not? Do you wonder if any of them will have the balls of steel required to date you while knowing that all the other guys think you are a guy?
""

1. You do not keep avoiding those people. That to me is running away from what you must face in life. Also see No. 2 below if someone is extremely dense.

2. You do not have to endure being treated as a guy. But, you should be ready for a lot of really slow learners. If someone intentionally disrespects who you are now, tell them to get out of your life, or you just leave them out of it.

3. You do not worry about half the room or the full room. You just do your thing and let your talents, character and personality speak for you. I think that over the long run it would be easier to expect that everyone in the room knows your past history, that way there will never be any surprises.

4. You should not worry about whether they have balls of steel or real flesh and blood. They will date you if they want to. I may be misunderstanding what you have written so far here, but I get a feeling that you want more than just acceptance from your old colleagues and acquaintances. Love doesn't work that way. It is almost just like a woman, extremely fickle when it comes to logic. If it is meant to happen, then it will. You cannot make it happen.

You have come so far and endured so much. However, that doesn't mean all transitioning is over. I think maybe it will be over for you when these issues become non-issues for you. That doesn't mean that everyone will be on their best behavior. To me it means that you don't really care and it doesn't matter anymore to you because you are completely comfortable with yourself being yourself everywhere and can take the worst and the best all in your natural stride. I always say hope for the best while expecting the worst. That may make it easier for you. Good luck.

[abigailf]

If transitioning was easy, everyone would do it. You are among some of the strongest people. Most (if not all) non-trans people could never deal with this crap.

People are going to perceive you in whatever way they want, you can only take solace in the fact that you are presenting the way you need to. You can not change the things you do not control, so stop trying. Instead, change yourself and don't let stuff like that get to you. I know it is tough, but you changed this much, one more step wont kill you.

How does that serenity prayer go:

{God} grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

To my quote above, I would like to add that being trans-identified is being male-identified, or whatever the starting gender is.

I don't believe trans-identified is {original gender}-identified. I think it is just plain trans-identified. Be happy, be proud, you are transgender.

As one of my colleagues used to advise me from time to time "You just need to get past this."

[Bree-asaurus]

I don't believe trans-identified is {original gender}-identified. I think it is just plain trans-identified. Be happy, be proud, you are transgender.

As one of my colleagues used to advise me from time to time "You just need to get past this."

I'm not trans-identified. I'm trans, but I'm a woman second... a human first.

I'm not happy or proud about the cruddy hand I've been given, but it has made me a stronger person.

I'm not proud of being trans... I just deal with it.

[Frances]

Reine, Allie, Abigail: Thank you for your responses.

I am starting to think, however, that this question has a very different meaning and emotional charge depending on where someone is at in their transition. I am not worried about what people are thinking and whether or not they will change their mind-set. This is not about them. This is about me.

I will try to make it even more succint:

The following is not hypothetical. It is my reality.

I am stealth, which means that I have all the priviliges of cis-gendered people. No one knows about my transsexual past unless I tell them. For all intents and purposes, I was born female. Keeping this status requires avoiding some people and places.

Is it a mistake to give that up?

Renée Richards wrote a second autobiography to address this very point. Her conclusion was NO. I would really like the opinion of post-transitional women and men especially (having had srs or not).

[Aprilrain]

the question becomes do you want to be a woman or whatever it is that people who know nothing about transsexualism think of us as.

[Kathryn Martin]

Frances, as you know I transitioned in place. This has meant that essentially I cannot be stealth. All of my former colleagues, clients and friends are my present colleagues, clients and friends. Apart from that I am stealth. New clients colleagues and people I meet do not become aware of me as a woman with a transsexual history unless I disclose it. Over the last year or so, I have tested the water and have found that my clients, colleagues and friends do not tattle on me and leave it up to me to tell or not.

My issues are with people not being disciplined enough to control their own speech, meaning I still get called him and Martin when they do not pay attention, as in the middle of a sentence, referring to me to a third party to the conversation etc.

As with you, it is not the new ones that are the problem. If it turns out that people will not do me the courtesy to control what they say, then I will avoid them in the future or break off the relationship. We transition because we must, both physically but also to receive the privileges and protections of our gender which were not available before transition because our bodies belie our gender. For me living a "male" life was stressful, difficult and taxed my strength and essence to the breaking point. For me this besides my physical incongruence was the hardest. It means that you can never relax into who you are, ever. To be placed into a position where aside from physical transformation you are not permitted to just be yourself without worry about being outed is untenable.

So where does leave it in answer to your question? I chose a path and I am following it. And the world will accommodate me or world be damned. They will have to get over it or live their life bereft of my presence in it.

Reine, Allie, Abigail: Thank you for your responses.

I am starting to think, however, that this question has a very different meaning and emotional charge depending on where someone is at in their transition. I am not worried about what people are thinking and whether or not they will change their mind-set. This is not about them. This is about me.

I will try to make it even more succint:

The following is not hypothetical. It is my reality.

I am stealth, which means that I have all the priviliges of cis-gendered people. No one knows about my transsexual past unless I tell them. For all intents and purposes, I was born female. Keeping this status requires avoiding some people and places.

Is it a mistake to give that up?

Renée Richards wrote a second autobiography to address this very point. Her conclusion was NO. I would really like the opinion of post-transitional women and men especially (having had srs or not).

[Badtranny]

I would really like the opinion of post-transitional women

Like Kathryn I also transitioned in place so the stealth environment you describe is just a fantasy for me. I've made several comments while transitioning about not caring if people know and being a proud tranny and all that but I cannot honestly say that I would NOT be deep stealth if that option was available. It isn't and it won't be, so I deal with it.

I can tell you that I wouldn't avoid something I loved to do just because so many knew me before, but that perspective is colored by my reality. If I were to experience true stealth, I can't say that I would want to give that up, but I don't know. Every now and then I do daydream a bit about changing jobs so I can work someplace where they never knew my old name at least.

To stealth or not to stealth, it's a tough question and I'm kinda thankful that it's one problem I won't have to deal with. ;-)

[kellycan27]

Count me in as another who transitioned in the work place. I was there for so long that I became a non event for most. When we moved to California only a few people ( whom I'd gone to college and am still friends with) knew. Add a husband, a couple of kids and I am pretty stealthy. Not many pay much attention to a woman pushing a stroller or grocery shopping with a couple of rug rats in tow, or a couple playing with their kids on the beach. I quit my full time job to work part time from home and be a stay at home mom. As for myself i don't really care who knows, but I do have concerns that if the news got out it may have an effect on my husbands career. ( He's a doctor). We have been here for close to 3 years now and...so far so good. I do miss my friends and co-workers in Nevada, but I am close ( 50 minutes by air) so I can visit when I want. I loved living in Nevada, but there were just to many that knew my history. Getting out was probably the best thing that i could have done.

[AllieSF]

Thanks for the reply Frances. I think that I do understand that it is all about you. But as others have said and how I think, is that if you want to remain stealth then you have to give up those people and activities, sometimes including employment, that already know you and part or all of your history. If you want to give them up to reach your goal of total stealth, that is your decision and neither I nor anyone else can say that it is good or bad. We can share our experiences and opinions, but that is all. If you want to remain in your previous area of employment and passion, music, then maybe a physical change in location would help you find the stealth that you seek.

"Is it a mistake to give that up?"

It is only a mistake for you if your decision does not bring you the peace and happiness that you are seeking. If you continually long for that which you leave behind, then to me that is a type of unhappiness if it drives you to question your earlier decision. The good thing about decisions is that they can be changed. So, try to live the way you want, if it does not work out the way that you would like, make another decision. Good luck.

[Frances]

Thanks for the reply Frances. I think that I do understand that it is all about you. But as others have said and how I think, is that if you want to remain stealth then you have to give up those people and activities, sometimes including employment, that already know you and part or all of your history. If you want to give them up to reach your goal of total stealth, that is your decision and neither I nor anyone else can say that it is good or bad. We can share our experiences and opinions, but that is all. If you want to remain in your previous area of employment and passion, music, then maybe a physical change in location would help you find the stealth that you seek.

"Is it a mistake to give that up?"

It is only a mistake for you if your decision does not bring you the peace and happiness that you are seeking. If you continually long for that which you leave behind, then to me that is a type of unhappiness if it drives you to question your earlier decision. The good thing about decisions is that they can be changed. So, try to live the way you want, if it does not work out the way that you would like, make another decision. Good luck.

It's the exact opposite. I am stealth now, and contemplating un-stealthing. I am not seeking stealth. I am considering giving it up.

[ReineD]

It's the exact opposite. I am stealth now, and contemplating un-stealthing. I am not seeking stealth. I am considering giving it up.

I know that you said you'd like the opinions of post-transitioned women, and certainly I can't address your feelings about being addressed as "he" since obviously I haven't walked your path. But, I can offer a perspective from the point of view of an onlooker to someone who has transitioned. I'm putting myself in your friend's shoes, which I can do.

I mentioned earlier about having to replace old memories with the new, and had a poor attempt at an analogy about moving into new house. The point was that I believe the people in your life who knew you before, are more flexible than you give them credit. But, it just takes time and exposure to the new you, if you've avoided the people who knew you from before. I know people who have transitioned and I can tell you that I no longer see them as male. How can I, when they look like women, act like women, and live as women? But, like I said it did take time for my older memories to dim and for the new post-transition memories to build, and I think this is natural. The knowledge of every aspect of our past lives whether or not it has to do with a person we know who has transitioned, is informed by our memory banks. Even though we see change every day in all aspects of our lives and we accept the change, we cannot completely erase all our memories on demand. This process takes time. But, memories do dim, and we do redefine things in order to conform to our new realities. This is what makes it possible for us to move into our redefined futures.

Also, it's not an occasional slip, using "he" in the presence of a stranger, that will unlock your past to the stranger. If I had been that Starbuck's employee and had heard your friend refer to you as a "he" with you as you are, and fully evident in front of me, I would have briefly thought your friend had misspoken and would not have even given it further thought. You know, like calling someone by a wrong name, occasionally (the way I do with my kids ... I'll sometimes use a sibling's name).

I don't know what you meant when you said you are thinking about giving up, if you now plan to tell every new person you meet that you have transitioned, but I just want to encourage you to not do this. It's not my business to tell you how to lead your life, but I would only do this if I planned on being a trans-activist and becoming a poster child for the cause.

[Frances]

I don't know what you meant when you said you are thinking about giving up, if you now plan to tell every new person you meet that you have transitioned, but I just want to encourage you to not do this. It's not my business to tell you how to lead your life, but I would only do this if I planned on being a trans-activist and becoming a poster child for the cause.

I meant giving up being stealth and putting myself in situations where I may be outted. I did not mean writing a book or becoming a trans-activist. A lot of people know that I transitioned and they mostly play in bands and work in the music industry. Somehow, I am not explaining my dilemma adequately. I am not implying anything other than what I am writing.

I am wondering about giving the comfort of being perceived as cis-gendered to re-enter a world and reacquaint myself with people who will know that I am trans and may or may not see me as a woman. This is about feeling like a trans person all over again, like during transition (and sometimes get called he), to play guitars, to go see guitars in music stores and to hang out with musicians.

Imagine this scenario: You went to jail for something pretty bad. You have a new life in which no ones knows this. You get treated like everyone else. Would you move back to a city where everyone knows you went to jail and for what reason, knowing that some may not want you around?

Being called he during transition is pretty bad, but it's almost expected. When you are post-transition and live stealth for the most part, it's devestating (at least to me). The reason for this is that I think everyone sees me as I see myself. I know the new people in my life do. I then put myself in situations where I try to reacquaint myself with other people and get hurt. Should I put myself in harm's way willingly? Do I want to be that tranny guitar player? Remember that I have intense internalized transphobia. The reality may not be as bad as I envision it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The reality is not as bad as you envision...if you quietly go about your business, and meet old friends along the way, you will have to deal with a new thing in your life...that new thing is the bad feelings around being "he'd" and called by your own name...
The problem is you won't really be able to know until you try it, and maybe even more so that it is hard to put a tangible value on feelings...but that's what you must do to make a good decision for yourself...

I've mentioned to you that for me it happens alot because my daily interactions include people that have always known me....usually its ok, sometimes it gets really hurtful to me on the inside..but then i think to myself about all the positives..

I think you would be pleasantly surprised most of the time if some of your relationships are aware of your past...but there is no doubt it will create some discomfort for you and it may be a situation where a new stress for you becomes the scenarios where you have a dual life around trying to keep your new friends and colleagues that enjoy a totally cisgender lifestyle away from your music friends or old buddies... i feel a strange disconnect on days when i spend my time with people that know me only as Kaitlyn, and then go back home to be dad...i just live with it because the value i ascribe to my kids is greater than anything.. I beat gender dysphoria, i kept my kids...everything else is gravy

I did give up most of my old pals, but i still enjoy the time i spend with old friends even though they don't always internally feel that i am a woman...

One nice option you have is to dip your toe into one of those music or record shops...and see how it feels...if you are already not going because of this, you could go and if you hate it, just go back to your current plan A...folks are not going to make conscious outing attempts, and you can eliminate some of the wondering and get back to the wonderful place where you realize that you've transitioned, you are living as a woman, and there is not one thing anybody can ever do about it!!!!




also i know one factor in my transition that causes me suffering and i think impacted some of my decisions (for the negative) is my own internalized transphobia.. i have beaten it down greatly, but there is still a part of me that hates me for being me..it was very bad prior to transition and i think i left the workplace partly because of this... today it impacts me because when i feel a spark with a person (ok the two times i felt it!!) I immediately shied away because someday he will "find out" and "hate me"...i realize that's not a healthy assumption, and i have very little doubt that your own transphobia is causing you some of this angst..

[Frances]

Folks are not going to make conscious outing attempts, and you can eliminate some of the wondering and get back to the wonderful

I had some equipment to sell, and went back to one of those music stores where I used to go. (The owner had seen me in various stages of transition and even right before full-time, when I looked odd.) I went in a little while ago, post-transition. I thought I looked good and felt alright about myself. There was a gentlemen trying a guitar. The owner asked if I knew him. I said that I had met him before (he plays with recording artists Stephen Barry Blues Band). The store owner calls him over and introduces us. The guy looks at me with googly eyes, and I am all happy to meet him. The store owner says to the man: "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..." I did not want the dynamic between the guitar player and I to change. I know full well that the store owner may tell everyone about me after I leave his store, but I did not like going through it in real time. I felt horrible and left quickly in tears before he could out me in front of me.

I stayed away for a long time, but have recently started going back. He is a little nicer to me and compliments once in a while (he is starting to "see me"). The best way I could describe it is having to go through transition and the ackwardness of it all over again, until people get used to me and "forget" about my male past like other people did years ago.

[Kathryn Martin]

also i know one factor in my transition that causes me suffering and i think impacted some of my decisions (for the negative) is my own internalized transphobia.. i have beaten it down greatly, but there is still a part of me that hates me for being me..it was very bad prior to transition and i think i left the workplace partly because of this... today it impacts me because when i feel a spark with a person (ok the two times i felt it!!) I immediately shied away because someday he will "find out" and "hate me"...i realize that's not a healthy assumption, and i have very little doubt that your own transphobia is causing you some of this angst..

I think what you are describing is not transphobia at all. You have no hate for persons that are gender variant or transsexual at all. What you hate is being you, for being struck with this disability, and the reality of never being able to relax, as I had mentioned above into your self. I think we are all afraid that one day he will find out in some way or another and the uncertainty that this brings in a much more fundamental way to the beginning of any relationship not only with "him". The cry in the night of our own solitude is this: why we were struck with our affliction and the devastating consequences it bring to so many areas of our lives, and especially the intimate ones, such as a loving relationship with a partner, ability to bear children, to have a body that can nurture as well as a soul.

I lost a child during my wife's pregnancy because her health was so bad that we lost the child. Recently I wrote to a friend[SIZE=2]: "that I could nothing about it, the feeling that I should be the one who should have carried the child (because I was healthy and well) but being such an impossible freak was and is with me every day of my life. To this day it is one of the most deeply moving events of my life.[/SIZE]"

While these are the burdens we carry, I am also deeply grateful for the life that I have lived. I have come to understand that these matters are my unique biographical challenges, even though they are common to many of us. In understanding this however, I embrace these challenges and have made them into opportunities. In the same way that I have refused to accommodate my un-accomodating world, I refuse to cast aside these opportunities for fear of the pain they will invariably bring. I am the mistress of my own domain.

[Bree-asaurus]

I had some equipment to sell, and went back to one of those music stores where I used to go. (The owner had seen me in various stages of transition and even right before full-time, when I looked odd.) I went in a little while ago, post-transition. I thought I looked good and felt alright about myself. There was a gentlemen trying a guitar. The owner asked if I knew him. I said that I had met him before (he plays with recording artists Stephen Barry Blues Band). The store owner calls him over and introduces us. The guy looks at me with googly eyes, and I am all happy to meet him. The store owner says to the man: "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..." I did not want the dynamic between the guitar player and I to change. I know full well that the store owner may tell everyone about me after I leave his store, but I did not like going through it in real time. I felt horrible and left quickly in tears before he could out me in front of me.

I stayed away for a long time, but have recently started going back. He is a little nicer to me and compliments once in a while (he is starting to "see me"). The best way I could describe it is having to go through transition and the ackwardness of it all over again, until people get used to me and "forget" about my male past like other people did years ago.

That sucks Frances

I really hate it that people feel the need to explain to others that I was a guy. I know my mom and a good friend of mine do it a lot. They don't mean any harm by it, but they just don't realize that I don't want to be known as Bree, the tranny. But whatever... can't have everything my way :P

It's kind of funny with my mom. She loves talking to people and when I go places with her, she'll introduce me to random people, like the checkout lady at a store: "This is my daughter, we're having a girls day out", etc. It gets awkward when she slips up and says "He's taking me shopping. This is my son, I mean daughter." Thanks ma...

[Badtranny]

It's kind of funny with my mom. She loves talking to people and when I go places with her, she'll introduce me to random people, like the checkout lady at a store: "This is my daughter, we're having a girls day out", etc. It gets awkward when she slips up and says "He's taking me shopping. This is my son, I mean daughter." Thanks ma...

Oh jeez, my mom is the same way. I don't see her very often (she's in Bakersfield) but I was down there earlier this year BEFORE my FFS and she introduced me to her friends as "my tranny son".

I am NOT joking.

[Saffron]

I had some equipment to sell, and went back to one of those music stores where I used to go. (The owner had seen me in various stages of transition and even right before full-time, when I looked odd.) I went in a little while ago, post-transition. I thought I looked good and felt alright about myself. There was a gentlemen trying a guitar. The owner asked if I knew him. I said that I had met him before (he plays with recording artists Stephen Barry Blues Band). The store owner calls him over and introduces us. The guy looks at me with googly eyes, and I am all happy to meet him. The store owner says to the man: "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..." I did not want the dynamic between the guitar player and I to change. I know full well that the store owner may tell everyone about me after I leave his store, but I did not like going through it in real time. I felt horrible and left quickly in tears before he could out me in front of me.

What a jerk

I had a GG girlfriend that sometimes did jokes about being TS, maybe you can get away in this situations by simply joking, like: "yeah, once I was a 6"4' male... Well I got better". Looking like a GG everybody will think it's a joke.

[Frances]

Oh jeez, my mom is the same way. I don't see her very often (she's in Bakersfield) but I was down there earlier this year BEFORE my FFS and she introduced me to her friends as "my tranny son".

I am NOT joking.

Wow! Since my parent and grand-parents have been dead for over 20 years and not having any brothers and sisters, there is no one I have to see. I can avoid everyone that ever knew me if I want to. But the pull of music is very strong.

What a jerk

I had a GG girlfriend that sometimes did jokes about being TS, maybe you can get away in this situations by simply joking, like: "yeah, once I was a 6"4' male... Well I got better". Looking like a GG everybody will think it's a joke.

I went through all of that once (transitioning in front of people), and I will have to go through it all over again years after the fact I guess.

This may sound crass, but I honestly think that most men that knew me would not care if I had bigger breasts.

[Saffron]

This may sound crass, but I honestly think that most men that knew me would not care if I had bigger breasts.

It's not crass, it's the plain truth with most men.

You remembered me an ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-9lgEecaoM

It's in spanish but it's pretty clear...

[abigailf]

I'm not trans-identified. I'm trans, but I'm a woman second... a human first.

Amen to that.

... "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..."...

That does suck and it has happened to me with some of my dearest friends. I wont go into the details now but I sent an email a few days later to all of them saying that "nobody should feel the need to out me but me."

The next time I will say that in real time and to anyone including the CEO of our company if she did it to me. I was just flustered at the time and a bit ticked off to think straight.

The he/she stuff is annoying as well, but I equate it to a mosquito bite. They are annoying at first but the irritation fades and if I get too many at any one time I just go inside and avoid them. If I get too many he's, I just walk away to be alone or with people that don't know me.

The thing is about being stealth, it means you deny an essential part of your past. In the past you denied who you really were for the longest time. Now that you figured it out you are going back to denying, but this time denying who you had been. Some may call it avoidance, but the difference it subtle.

I probably just don't get it because I come from a big family and I would never want to leave behind those things I love. Stealth as someone had said is just a fantasy for me.

Since I don't get it I will have to take your word for it that being stealth is a necessity for you. That being said, couldn't you just start those things you love within a new circle of people?

[ReineD]

The store owner says to the man: "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..." I did not want the dynamic between the guitar player and I to change. I know full well that the store owner may tell everyone about me after I leave his store, but I did not like going through it in real time. I felt horrible and left quickly in tears before he could out me in front of me.

This makes me angry.

Caro, you need to develop a killer instinct against the ignorant and stubborn people who insist on bringing up the past, with the added benefit of adding a story to cause sensationalism. Damn, I would have stopped the store owner dead in his tracks said in an authoritative voice, "I am Caro and I would thank you to respect this. My affairs are not yours to tell for your personal enjoyment."

I think (or at least I hope), there are very few people who are as ignorant as this store owner jerk. In this particular instance, the bystander might have guessed the rest, or he might have questioned and found out later, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that he would have respected you for standing up for yourself.

[Badtranny]

This makes me angry.

RD, I really doubt that the jerk in question had any intention of being so jerky. People are fascinated by us and they have no idea how emotionally damaging being TS can be. Nobody does. Sensitive intelligent people (like you) can sympathize and try real hard to understand, but there are some things that MUST be experienced before there can be any hope of understanding. Being even mildly attracted to a guy who immediately writes you off because of your past is painful and flirting with a guy who eventually says, "oh I was just having some fun, there is no way you and I would ever get together, that's never gonna happen", can be kinda rough.

I don't blame people for not understanding, or for not ignoring who I used to be, they can't help how they feel anymore than I can but that doesn't take away any of the hurt.

Growing up and spending a good chunk of your life hiding from yourself definitely leaves a mark and the transition is alternately wonderful and horrible. This is a hell of a thing.

[Anna Lorree]

Growing up and spending a good chunk of your life hiding from yourself definitely leaves a mark and the transition is alternately wonderful and horrible. This is a hell of a thing.

I can certainly agree with that! I may not have transitioned yet, nor have I had to worry about stealth as a woman, but I have lived my entire life deep stealth as a guy. A fair piece of my dysphoria is worrying about being "outed" by feminine gestures and mannerisms peeking through. It sucks that we have to worry about this both pre and post transition.

Anna

[Stephenie S]

"I really do not think Frances is having second thoughts at all. Perhaps you misunderstand her completely."

This was in answer to a post that has since been deleted.

Stephie