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Thread: And he's having a latté

  1. #76
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    "The thing is about being stealth, it means you deny an essential part of your past. In the past you denied who you really were for the longest time. Now that you figured it out you are going back to denying, but this time denying who you had been. Some may call it avoidance, but the difference it subtle."

    I hear this sentiment a lot on this forum. I think it speaks from inexperience.

    Do you really think that those who go through ALL the pain, expense, and heartbreak of transition do so to become "trannies"? I think not. They do so to become WOMEN! Holding on to your past means holding on to the fact that you were once a man. On the surface, that seems OK. But I can assure you that once someone knows you were once a man, they will NEVER look at you as a woman, EVER!

    Just what do you expect from transition? If you transition to become a tranny, then OK. But transition to become a woman means withholding your past from general knowledge. Women just were NOT ever men in the eyes of most of the population. I am sorry, but this is fact.

    S

  2. #77
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    Here's a little update.

    As I mentioned in another post, I ran into an old friend (Tony) a music store last Saturday, and we went for coffee. During our conversation, he told me that the guy working in the music store (Jeff) recognized me and said something along the lines of "I have not seen him in a long time. He is a good player. I wonder what he has been doing." My friend responded that "he was a she now." It should have been pretty obvious, though, with boobs, make-up and all.

    I decided to go back there today, to talk to Jeff. Since he now knows, might as well talk about it. I went, but he was not working. Tony was there though. He was talking to another salesman whom I did not know. I did not want to bother them and waited for the conversation to be over before approaching Tony. Once they were done, I thought Tony come and talk to me. Instead, he said "ok, bye now" and practically ran away with a scared expression on his face. Remember that he was the one that said my transition did not matter and that I should go to music stores and play again.

    I left the music floor of the store feeling like John Merrick and dejected, but all the men I saw on the way out were giving me their best smiles and bedroom eyes, especially the ones in the forties.

    I don't get it. Am I attractive or ugly? Does the music scene not want me around? With all their eye-liner and nail polish, music guys are very macho and homophobic.

    I will now get drunk and cry.
    Last edited by Frances; 10-20-2012 at 04:51 PM.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  3. #78
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    It's their problem, Frances, not yours. Seriously...you're a lovely woman. If some past life haunts these fellows then let them be damned to spend eternity there. You have moved on.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimdl93 View Post
    It's their problem, Frances, not yours. Seriously...you're a lovely woman. If some past life haunts these fellows then let them be damned to spend eternity there. You have moved on.
    Thank you for the compliment. The whole point of this thread, however, is a discussion about going back. I had moved on, but am now thinking of going back to a world that seems very uncomfortable with my presence.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  5. #80
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephenie S View Post
    Holding on to your past means holding on to the fact that you were once a man. On the surface, that seems OK. But I can assure you that once someone knows you were once a man, they will NEVER look at you as a woman, EVER!
    This may be true, but some of us don't have the option of stealth. My past is my present. I'm just prettier now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    I don't get it. Am I attractive or ugly?
    Girl, if I wasn't strictly dickly I would be all over you like honey on a bee's foot.
    Last edited by Nigella; 10-21-2012 at 07:16 AM. Reason: Merged consecutive post, any more and further moderation may be considered, you have been here long enough to know how to multiquote
    Quote Originally Posted by STACY B
    At least there is social acceptance in being a drunk in our world. Hell I was good at it too.
    Melissa Hobbes
    www.badtranny.com

  6. #81
    I think my signature pretty much sums it all up.

    The only way to know if you old colleagues and friends can understand it is to try it and give them some time. Prejudices can be broken.
    "I'm not sure. But I'll never know unless I give it a shot."

  7. #82
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    After a while, if you hang out around them, people who knew you before your transition will get used to you, some will talk to you some won't but if they knew you before chances are they will never see you the way you want to be seen. Can you handle that?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    Girl, if I wasn't strictly dickly I would be all over you like honey on a bee's foot.
    I find beautiful women with penises quite hot, by the way.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  9. #84
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    I think that some of the guys you knew in the past may be attracted to you and get weirded out when they contemplate that feeling. You are very attractive and like many attractive women in this world that does not necessarily translate into finding love and relationship. Seeking a relationship with someone who knew you before no matter how attracted they might be to you is freighted with a lot of problems unless there is total acceptance of your status as a woman on every level.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  10. #85
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    Sorry about your upsetting experience Frances.
    Last edited by Beth-Lock; 10-21-2012 at 08:21 PM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    Thank you for the compliment. The whole point of this thread, however, is a discussion about going back. I had moved on, but am now thinking of going back to a world that seems very uncomfortable with my presence.
    Going back to music doesn't mean you have to go back to the same crowd, does it...maybe it does ...I don't know. But I wouldn't want to put up with their attitudes. If that's the only thing going back offers, then by all means go elsewhere.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    I find beautiful women with penises quite hot, by the way.
    OH, Frances!!! You naughty, naughty girl. Go say 10 Hail Marys and hope that magic man sitting on a cloud in the sky didn't hear you.

  13. #88
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    I find beautiful women with penises quite hot, by the way.
    Oh jeez, do you have to tell EVERYBODY about my little secret? ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by STACY B
    At least there is social acceptance in being a drunk in our world. Hell I was good at it too.
    Melissa Hobbes
    www.badtranny.com

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    I don't necessarily want these guys to hit on me, but to be nice to me, to look at me like other guys do.
    With particular reference to the underlined part, I think you're expecting too much of them. If they knew you from before, then there's always going to be a disconnect between what they remember and what they see. After a while of being involved in the trans community you forget just how freaky it is to non trans people to see a man become a woman. It's still very much a "wow WTF?" subject for so many people. Sure, they'll learn to use the right pronouns etc and say how accepting they are, but the male/female dynamic will not be the same.

    It sucks, but if you want to stay around these people you're going to have to accept that some of them will see you as trans and not a woman, purely because they know you from before. It's unrealistic to expect them to keep your secret for you. Your past is what it is. If you're not comfortable with people knowing your past then you're going to have to choose friends who don't know it, because otherwise it'll always be there, waiting in the background to bite you in the ass.
    Last edited by Kerstin; 10-20-2012 at 08:11 PM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerstin View Post
    With particular reference to the underlined part, I think you're expecting too much of them. If they knew you from before, then there's always going to be a disconnect between what they remember and what they see. After a while of being involved in the trans community you forget just how freaky it is to non trans people to see a man become a woman. It's still very much a "wow WTF?" subject for so many people. Sure, they'll learn to use the right pronouns etc and say how accepting they are, but the male/female dynamic will not be the same.

    It sucks, but if you want to stay around these people you're going to have to accept that some of them will see you as trans and not a woman, purely because they know you from before. It's unrealistic to expect them to keep your secret for you. Your past is what it is. If you're not comfortable with people knowing your past then you're going to have to choose friends who don't know it, because otherwise it'll always be there, waiting in the background to bite you in the ass.
    Thank you for your response Kerstin. Like I said a few times in the thread, people ask questions and from my responses spring new interpretations of the main point. While everything you wrote is valid and useful, it is nothing new to me. I have transitioned. I have lived all of this. I did choose friends who did not know. I was stealth and living as woman knowing that no one knew my past. This thread seems to have gone once in a while to this idea that I don't know what transitioning entails, and have unrealistic expectations of people's reation to my transition. I have lived all of it already. I transitioned on the job and without moving from my neighbourhood. I eventually moved and left my job, however, and started again with new friends.

    The point of the thread is not what others are going through, but what I am putting myself through, and whether or not it's worth it.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    The point of the thread is not what others are going through, but what I am putting myself through, and whether or not it's worth it.
    It is worth it. You transitioned because you had to. Now that you've been able to overcome a lot of what has plagued you, you forget what it was like before. You remember the good parts or the easy parts of how things were before. Remember, you chose the hell of transition because the hell of not transitioning would have been worse.

    Life still sucks... but at least now it sucks less. Remember that.

  17. #92
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    You don't really know why Tony had that look and took off. It could be anything, or it could be you.... give it another shot. Of course, that may end up hurting a lot - or not.
    There is a road—no simple highway—between the dawn and the dark of night.
    And if you go no one may follow. That path is for your steps alone.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    The point of the thread is not what others are going through, but what I am putting myself through, and whether or not it's worth it.
    If music is what you love doing, then don't let other people's perceptions of you stop you from doing it. I totally understand why people go stealth and why they don't want to be seen as trans, but it comes at a price. You went through so much to get where you are now. Is going back to the old life a price worth paying? Only you can know that.
    Last edited by Kerstin; 10-21-2012 at 07:03 AM.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bree-asaurus View Post
    It is worth it. You transitioned because you had to. Now that you've been able to overcome a lot of what has plagued you, you forget what it was like before. You remember the good parts or the easy parts of how things were before. Remember, you chose the hell of transition because the hell of not transitioning would have been worse.

    Life still sucks... but at least now it sucks less. Remember that.
    Your response sounds like you think I am regretting transition or having second thoughts. I meant putting myself through the pain or being seen as trans all over again and having to explain what I have done all over again, when I did not need to anymore. This thread is about making life suck a little more... on purpose.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  20. #95
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    I think you know my feelings...i think its worth it... you can always "go back" to avoiding the music scene especially if it gets to rough

    ..my mantra is always quality of life...how can you improve your quality of life

    there may be a "cosmic" benefit to never dealing with your past, but its hard to pin that down, and you will always have the issue of running into people or having it cloud decisions ...and its especially tough when you compare things you love and feel passion for...

    does spending time indulging your passion, and spending time in places that feel special to you outweight the negative feelings of being reminded about your transsexuality

    i would speculate that you are always reminded about your transsexuality, and that these recent record store moments are more like symbols of being reminded and maybe you can consider that this is really your own internal issue that you are better off dealing with now...in other words, the internalized transphobia that neither one of us has really fully conquered...

    its funny because we are both half way there..

    in your case, you have a fullsome and meaningful female role in life...your femaleness is unquestioned and this is a wonderful thing...your internal feelings are safe and sound... but these times you touch your past bring negative feelings up and they are really really difficult feelings...it induces shame basically... to me shame is the worst...

    for me, i am surrounded by people that know "him"...it is a constant part of my life...i am used to it...i have no guilty or shameful feelings around this...i feel incredible pride that i helped my friends and family navigate through this and they mostly supported me..
    i hardly ever enjoy time as someone that is not known as a him at some point..and that raises an issue i deal with..

    a good example is yesterday...i went to a stereophile event as a guest...it was 50 folks and i was one of 3 women there!!! you can imagine it was a pretty crazy thing...i was surrounded and my friend told me afterwards that he was THANKED more than once for bringing a woman to the party...at the end, it took me a half hour to leave as a half dozen guys got last minute courage to talk to me... it was wonderful... part of me was floating on air...the other part of me?? "OMG if they only knew!!! they would hate me!!"
    i had to consciously fight the feeling... i don't have that feeling today, but i joined their club and i would not be surprised if i get asked out...and i guarantee the feelings will flood back and i'll have to deal with them...
    I"m going to look at it as a good problem to have..


    ...i guess i'm saying here's a big hug becasue i know what this feels like to you, but i think you are best served to go into the lions den and see what happens...you are either going to have a really tough time and back off, or you are going to make significant progress dealing with an important feeling that is hurting your quality of life AND getting back to your passion as a bonus... its not a "fail" if you end up backing away, its just a part of a very difficult path that has alot of ups and downs..

  21. #96
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    I think that you have to be fair to them. If they have known you for years, it would no doubt be very hard to just suddenly start thinking of you differently. Even if it were as simple as a name change, you go from being called "Sue" to "Angie", by habit alone your friends are going to keep calling you "Sue" until they get used to the new name. You are asking them to instantly adapt to much more than a simple name change, and maybe that is not entirely reasonable of you?

    I have not, and will not, transition, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but I would assume that if you give them time to shift their internal view of you, things may improve?

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxKimberly View Post
    I think that you have to be fair to them. If they have known you for years, it would no doubt be very hard to just suddenly start thinking of you differently. Even if it were as simple as a name change, you go from being called "Sue" to "Angie", by habit alone your friends are going to keep calling you "Sue" until they get used to the new name. You are asking them to instantly adapt to much more than a simple name change, and maybe that is not entirely reasonable of you?

    I have not, and will not, transition, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but I would assume that if you give them time to shift their internal view of you, things may improve?
    You are not getting it. Once again, this is not about them. I don't know how to make this clearer.

    I transitioned a few years ago on the job, in my neighbourhood. That means having people see me change and having to get used to it. I had to do a lot of educating folks around me, be very fair to them, and be entirely reasonable. Some of them got used to it eventually. Some (collegues who saw me everyday) showed me that they still saw me as a male, even after surgery and a lot of time. Some other people who were not as close to me seem to have forgetten completely my past (like the owner of the restaurant in my office building).

    Maybe only post-transitional people get this.

    I am not asking anyone to adapt instantly or do anything actually. I am talking about my subjectivity, my feelings. I am wondering if it's a good thing to go through the stuff I just mentioned above all over again.

    While I appreciate everyone's input. It seems very clear that people who have not transitioned concentrate on others and how I should behave according to their feelings and post-transitional people empathize with my dilemma and the feelings provoked by the situation I am in. The perspective is very different.

    For the people who are coming in the thread and don't know me, I am a post-op, post-transitional. I have been living as a woman full-time for years. I transitioned on the job and went through all the pain associated with the process.

    Those of you who had a tough adolescence, got through it, and are now adults. Would you got through it again, on purpose?
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    Those of you who had a tough adolescence, got through it, and are now adults. Would you got through it again, on purpose?
    Obviously, not.

    I think the question is, what do you prefer, to live in stealth in another career, or return to the music business and endure all the suffering.

    I don't see a win-win situation here, each option have it's own pros and cons.

    Although I'm starting my transition, I'm in the same situation about my career. I wish I had a perfect solution to offer to both of us.
    "I'm not sure. But I'll never know unless I give it a shot."

  24. #99
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances View Post
    Those of you who had a tough adolescence, got through it, and are now adults. Would you got through it again, on purpose?
    That's a GREAT analogy Francie. (After skyping with you, I think I would probably call you Francie if we hung out because most of my friends get nicknames, and you were so cute and cuddly)

    OMG or Frenchie! That would be so cute, since yer French and all. ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by STACY B
    At least there is social acceptance in being a drunk in our world. Hell I was good at it too.
    Melissa Hobbes
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  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    That's a GREAT analogy Francie. (After skyping with you, I think I would probably call you Francie if we hung out because most of my friends get nicknames, and you were so cute and cuddly)

    OMG or Frenchie! That would be so cute, since yer French and all. ;-)
    Yes Misty, you can call me Francie or Frenchie as much as you want.
    It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.

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