Did I just see a crossdresser?

[cyndigurl45]

I actually became alot more comfortable expressing myself after I paid attention to just how rough some GG's can be......

[Debra Russell]

I spot quite a few women that I wonder about - the give-away for me is facial, male skin and feminine softness and expression; this takes a closer scrutinization but is almost infallible. Most of the time I notice women who have a more masculine body, large shoulders, narrow hips ect, but the face reviles there femininity-not to say that we as cders can't pull it off/pass but if your on the lookout, sure any one can tell if your really looking -- and yes my cdar is up all the time -the more you observe you learn = easier to go en femm with ease.........................Debra

[Stephanie47]

When I was in San Francisco for an extended period of time, seven weeks, I did notice a pair of cross dressers. I think I was able to identify them as cross dressers because they did not move with the ease of a woman. Or it was be they were trying to hard to appear as a woman. I know nobody cared, but, I think they just wanted to pass too much. Then upon seeing them the analysis kicked in. Their body type was not that of a woman. Nobody else in my group noticed them. So, maybe I was being too observant. I actually I suspect my ability to notice them was a survival technique learned in the jungles of Nam, where life and death hinged on the littlest piece of information.

Within the last five years in my town I have noticed the same cross dresser twice. Everyone noticed him. There was no effort to pass. I think he was trying to make a statement, but, I could not figure it out. He was not my definition of femininity, whether the person was a man or a GG.

I did see another young man cross dressing on Halloween in a local variety store. He was an employee showing himself off on his personal time. He was very passable. However, he was making an effort to let all his co workers know who he was. I overheard some conversations of the female employees and they were of the opinion he was not just dressing up for Halloween. They had him pegged as a regular cross dresser. They weren't critical of him. They were just stating there opinion. I'd say they were right on!

[sherib]

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Thread: Did I just see a crossdresser?
I have seen a few that I thought were crossdressers and I've also seen a few that I was absolutely positive they were. But all except one was way more masculine and showed it.

[kimdl93]

....Some people can read my SO right away, while others don't, or at least they give no indication they do. Some people have better developed gay-dars than others. I have a much better gay-dar than my SO.

...I think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender. .

I think both are true statements. I don't know if its a male/female thing or a GG/TG thing, but my wife definitely has much sharper gaydar. I don't know if she a better eye for discerning CDrs than I because we just haven't encountered that many other CDrs in public. But I'm willing to stipulate that she'd be more preceptive than I in that case as well...mostly because she (quite correctly) thinks I'm oblivious to such things.

[Wildaboutheels]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, does it not make sense that SO's of CDers, would ALWAYS be on the lookout for other CDers?

[BRANDYJ]

Over the years I have seen quite a few crossdressers and some that I was not sure of. But I do think we as crossdressers may notice more then the average male might. We tend to look at women in a verydifferent way then non-crossdressing males do. We look closer at her makeup, hair, clothes and body shape, while many of the non CD guys are looking at her in a mostly sexual way with no thoughts about whether or not she is in fact a she. I can only think of one time that I was fooled. It was whereI worked. I had seen this tall attractive lady and not given her any thought beyond thinking she wasnice looking for her age (50ish) It took a young cashier motioning me over and pointing her out to me as a guy. Then she asked me if I could help her find what she was looking for. So I walked up to her and asked if I may of assistance. Now in close quarters I noticed the larger hands, voice, and feet. But still in her case the skin texture and hair made it difficult to determine. But yes, I confirmed. While working there I had seen about 4 other CD/TS's that shopped there. Other then a few joking comments from a few of the guys working there, no one laughed, made fun of, or treated them badly. All of the female cashiers were always nice and never joked about any of them. There was one that was anything but passable and dressed very shabby while sweating riuining her poor attempt to makeup. Another that was nasty, rude, fowl mouthed when simply approached asking if she needed any help finding anything. If it were not for her nasty attitude, I think she may have gone undetected.

[Patti Remick]

I think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender.

I would strongly (and very respecfully) disagree with Reine on the above point (only). While I would agree that there is a range in all peoples abilities to read others I feel that as a lifelong CDr Ive spent much of my life specifically looking at the differences between females/males women/men so as to better be able to look/act like a female and not look/act like a male. Basic understanding of human anthropology shows that recognition of even subtle gender differences is aquired at a VERY young age. Ive read that there have been studies that show that infants less than 3 months old can discern between fully clothed adult females and males. Recognition of gender differences is an extremely important skill we need to function as humans both within the basic family unit as well as within society. These traits go back to out earliest ancestors. Human sexual dimorphism is an extremely strong human trait. Just in facial structure alone (where we tend to look first) there are significant differences between adult females and males. Bone structure of the entire head is different (eye sockets, jaw mass) as is the muscle mass. I would agree that the ability to 'read' a CDr will be different for everyone but I have never had any difficulty reading others nor do I entertain any fantasies that I could 'pass' regardless of how I am prepared. Some CDrs pass well in photopgraphs but would be read instantly in real life. I recall the first time I went to a meeting of a local CD/TG group. This was many, many years ago and long before the internet so I had never really seen many other CDrs. There must have been 20-30 other CDrs there. What a shock it was when I realised how almost every one of them was so easily 'read' by me. I was a bit depressed after that contemplating my own appearance although I had a professional 'makeover' just before I got there (wow, thats a story for another time!).

Anyway the truth is that as well I feel I can read CDrs I actually have seen very few 'out and about' in my 'normal' life. Maybe I dont get out much - Im not big on shopping, malls, etc. The last CDr I saw was at my local library (Im a bookworm, bibliophile). She was very well dressed (pretty dress just abone the knee, dark nylons, pump shoes, light overcoat), good hair (wig) and makeup (not overdone). Tall, over 6ft. Male facial features to the max - huge jawline, adams apple. Fair female mannerisms but the male gait (walk) was unmistakable. I happened to be in the check out line right behind her but had seen her earlier when I got there. We exited the library basically at the same time and I was able to watch her get into her car as I got into mine. The way she turned her whole body to put her right arm back so she could look back to backup (as you should) just re-iterated to me how different women and men move under similar circumstances and how overwhelmingly 'male' her movement way (because we dont even think about how we move most of the time).

Luv and hugs to all,
Patti Remick

[Angela Campbell]

I think women can tell better than men as they scrutinize other women more while men just look at any female and think either yah I would or ewww no way.

[kendra_gurl]

By percentages there really are very very few of us out in public to be seen. That in it's self makes it very very rare when we see a sister.

I have seen two CD's at the mall on seperate occasions both of whom were very obvious by there actions and attire (way over dressed plus not age appropriate).

Other than those in gay/les clubs we can usually spot who can say how many if any I have looked at with just a glance who pass well enought I never gave a thought about if they might not be GG.

Women pay way more attention to what other women are wearing be it clothing, jewlery, makeup or hair style. Since I myself have on several occasions shocked SA's and GG's playing machines next to me at the casinos when I have spoken to them and pretty much gave myself away I am sure just as they didn't notice at first neither can most of us if the CD is good at it.

[Kerstin]

In all my life I have never noticed a crossdresser or transsexual person. Not out and about in town, not in bars or clubs. I guess people pass more often than they think

[sandra-leigh]

Patti, your response to Reine addresses detecting biological sex, not detecting gender.

Let me put it this way:

If that GG over the way is wearing a pair of jeans, that doesn't mean she is male. Pants were formerly highly associated with "male", and it was literally scandalous for women to wear pants, and they were accused of trying to be male, but the wearing of what were formerly mens' clothes does not make any genetic female into being "male" gender.

On the other hand, if I (MTF) wear a pair of jeans, that doesn't mean that I am gender male. No matter what my deeper eye sockets, larger face, et al, look like, my gender is still female(-ish).

I do have difficulty with detecting gender, because I know that clothes and physical body appearance only hint at gender (as distinct from chromozomal sex.) I find it especially difficult with FTM who are not taking testosterone. When I look over at them and ask myself, "If I wore those clothes / had those kind of earrings / had my hair cut like that, would that make me male?"; and as I answer "No", I have to conclude that I don't know their gender either, especially if they are presenting borderline.

A note in this regard: I do see enough FTM or potential FTM around my city, "in the wild", that I am not saying the above in response to a single incident. Especially as I have gone to the Transgender Day of Remembrance here for several years now, which in this city is often 60% or more attended by genetic females, including transmen, their partners (GM or GG), dykes, lesbians, gender-queer, families, and allies. Thus I get to see how a lot of transmen and gender-queer are currently presenting, and so can recognize the style when I see it in public. Figuring out whom is which gender or which side of gender-queer they are, is often beyond my perception.

[ReineD]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, does it not make sense that SO's of CDers, would ALWAYS be on the lookout for other CDers?

I'm not. I'm among those who don't people-watch when I'm out and about, unless I'm sitting in a café somewhere with nothing to read or without a laptop. But, when I do take the time to look at people, I notice things.

I would strongly (and very respecfully) disagree with Reine on the above point (only).

Well, it is a pet theory and not something that I've researched. I did base it on the idea that emotional involvement often clouds objectivity.

I agree with everything in your post especially the differences between male and female facial structures. Studies show there is a 98% gender accuracy reading in faces that have no makeup and where the hair is hidden under a cap. I also agree that most kids know sooner than many adults, first because they stare more than adults do, but also they are still open to their environments. Most adults become too preoccupied with their own affairs to notice many things. But, if these same adults were to clear their minds and take the time to observe, they would be able to tell the differences too.

I think that we are least objective about ourselves though, since often we see what we want to see. This applies to most everyone and is not limited to gender perception.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Patti, your response to Reine addresses detecting biological sex, not detecting gender.

I do have difficulty with detecting gender, because I know that clothes and physical body appearance only hint at gender (as distinct from chromozomal sex.)

Thanx for bringing this up Sandra-Leigh, reading anything about people is a mix of all visual characteristics.

[krissy]

i love to see others like us have the nerve to be them selves.it makes me proud im getting there not yet but want to

[angpai30]

Yesterday I was up at the front desk talking to some of the girls up there and one of them was helping a customer who for some reason kept handing her license back to the cashier and saying "well you keep handing this back to me confused or something and this is my I.D." Sounds familiar, LoL! Finally I went over there to see if I could help and right off the bat looking at her first glance I knew she was trans, but didn't say anything... next I looked at her license and her license was like mine with her old male picture on it. I didn't say anything because I apparently must have helped the situation just by walking over because then the Ladies I.D. was taken because the girl realized what the problem was because I'm Trans. The lady looked at me as I had shaved that day, but didn't stick any makeup on thinking I would be able to get my kids that day earlier than what I did and thought I would go without any makeup, let alone I had razor burn. Everyone still called me ma'am, her and she. A few customers asked me why I had such a bad rash on my face and I said because I shaved and every single one of them laugned and told me that I was to pretty to have a mustache and asked what the problem really was. I told them it was a personal one and I wasn't comfortable talking about it. They took that with a smile and left with their stuff. Anyways, with this razor burn on my face and so obvioius that she was trans to me we both shared a stare and a smile and today she came through my line with her BF from what I could tell and checked on me a little closer as to say I know what you are and it's ok. LoL, I don't really know, it seemed like she came in for a closer look really.

Angela

[Meghan]

My point with all of this is, there is a range in people's abilities to read things. With regards to gender, I think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender. This is not a good or a bad thing, it just is. When they see themselves, they see both, even if alternatively. Some CDers think they pass totally when they look at themselves in the mirror (or they're not sure), when others will read them. Some CDers have difficulty telling whether the GG in front of them is a man or not if she has short hair, a stocky body, is not wearing makeup and is wearing pants. And some CDers are convinced the other CDers they see in pics look totally like GGs, when (even though they are attractive and feminine looking), they don't.

If this sounds harsh, I'm sorry. I'm not wanting to be mean, just objective. And I've fallen prey to this phenomena myself, many years ago. I was not able to see something that others were able to see quite well, unrelated to gender.

I think this is a very interesting theory. In other words, if transgendered people had a clear and distinct view of "gender appropriateness" for lack of a better term, then they would have been able to both observe and conform to gender-specific behaviors and roles enough to not end up dysphoric in the first place!

That opens up the possibility that some transgender beings can't identify with their own gender, so therefore, given the binary distribution of gender roles in society, they MUST driven from the other gender.

My son has Asperger's syndrome, and he has taught me a lot about how the human brain processes and relays information. I think your theory is a great one...what if some transgendered people are rejecting their male side, and are embracing their female side because they feel they have to pick one...instead of somehow accommodating both.

I personally have always preferred "girl" over "boy". I see myself as a girl and always have. But I wonder how many people would rather just not be male, so they end up identifying as female by default.

Meghan

[sandra-leigh]

what if some transgendered people are rejecting their male side, and are embracing their female side because they feel they have to pick one...instead of somehow accommodating both.

After quite a bit of struggle, I found that I knew I was not male. I do not, however, know that I am female even though I am sure that I am on the female side of the metaphorical dividing line. To approximate: I do not "know" myself to be female enough to identify as "female". (For example, I don't feel any need for SRS for myself, but I can see some point in FFS for myself.)

Now, this position of being in-between, of not knowing where I belong, is a difficult and stressful one. It feels to me that it would be much easier to say that "I guess I must be female then". I know that I am quite stubborn on not making big decisions without a Reason (or at least without Knowing); I think a lot of people, in my situation, would be willing to accept the parts of me that I do know to be female, together with me knowing I am not male, as being sufficient. And maybe they'd be right, perhaps I am using my strong rationality as a form of denial. But my Spock Logic is what I have to work with.

[ReineD]

Now, this position of being in-between, of not knowing where I belong, is a difficult and stressful one.

Yes, it must be incredibly difficult. I can't imagine how difficult, since people who don't solidly identify with one gender or the other have absolutely no blueprint for this. No role models, no sense of having met others like themselves when they grew up, on top of knowing that society rejects non-binary gender.

I think it takes a great deal of inner strength for bigenders to reach an inner peace and acceptance of who they are, all while trying to fit within society's rules. I don't blame CDers for wanting to look feminine. It's a necessary coping mechanism, I think.

Disclaimer: this doesn't apply to everyone. We all know how varied is this community.

[sandra-leigh]

Yes, it must be incredibly difficult. I can't imagine how difficult, since people who don't solidly identify with one gender or the other have absolutely no blueprint for this. No role models, no sense of having met others like themselves when they grew up, on top of knowing that society rejects non-binary gender.

It is very much a "Aggh! I need to make everything up as I go along!" feeling, seasoned with a generous dose of internal thoughts of "... and you're probably going to make a big mistake and choose the wrong thing!" As Colossal Cave phrased it, "Are you sure? Are you sure you're sure? Are you sure as sure as sure can be?" Oh, God, how do I know?? If I was definitely transsexual, I could follow in the path of others, I could do something, I could get somewhere! The doing wouldn't be easy, I know, but there would be a goal. Where-as if you are in-between and don't know if that is the right place for you or not, you don't have a gender home to go to. Some people thrive on the challenge, but I don't. I want the very very fine house with two cats in the yard and the putting flowers in the vase, a life of quiet peace and love.

[RADER]

There is a restaurant in southern Wisconsin that my wife and I like to go on Fridays.
I often see the same three people come in; Father and Mother both in their 50's
and a CD in her late 20 or early 30's.
She always wears jeans, sometimes cut offs, a light top, and you can definitely
see the bra lines, and if you look carefully the forms in side them.
I think I am the only one that noticed the manly facial features in her face and the large feet
for a girl. She always wears flats as she is over 6' high. I think it is great that she got her
family to be OK with going out with her. And I wish her the best of luck.
I guess I am a little envy of her being able to go out anytime she wants to.
Rader

[Pexetta]

Out grocery shopping last week I became irritated because a tall woman was blocking my access to the washing powder. Then I thought, 'That's interesting, she's wearing the same shoes as the sister I noticed in this same shop two weeks ago. Perhaps they weren't such a bad choice after all.' Then I realised that she was the same person.

So for me at least, I'm only good at noticing fellow travellers when I'm actively looking out for them. The rest of the time, when I'm not particularly concerned about putting people into a gender category - like when they're in my way - my brain makes a quick decision so it can get on with the important business of wishing they'd move. Even when it's previously classed them as a sister.

[ReineD]

Wow, Pexetta, I'm impressed that you can remember a pair of shoes that a stranger wore two weeks ago. I can't even remember what I wore yesterday.

[Pexetta]

Wow, Pexetta, I'm impressed that you can remember a pair of shoes that a stranger wore two weeks ago. I can't even remember what I wore yesterday.

I'm constantly on the lookout for any item of clothing that can be considered ambiguous and could be adopted for my real world look. If it falls into that category, I remember it.

[ReineD]

I'm constantly on the lookout for any item of clothing that can be considered ambiguous and could be adopted for my real world look. If it falls into that category, I remember it.

LOL. I hear you. I tend to remember uncomfortable discussions with my SO, almost word for word, much to her chagrin.

This wasn't a criticism, just a reminder that we all have a wonderful memory for things that are important to us.