But of a conundrum ...

[JessicaMay]

It's been a bit of a while since I started dressing, getting on 10 years now. My wife has known all along and all the slow steps we've taken to get to the point where Jessica was born has been wonderful.

Along the way I discovered I am bi, I've never done anything with a man before now, but the thought of picking someone up, turning them on and bringing them home ... well

Anyway, the issue is there aren't many places a starting out TG can go to have fun, hang out with new people and be as female as possible. With one exception, there is a local "club" of sorts that allows, infact, encourages TG/CD patrons to show.

That's where it gets a bit complicated, see this place is a no female zone. They don't allow women at all ever. The second issue is that the place is generally a hook-up spot, complete with rooms, beds, etc. From what I've read it's a dark place, glory holes and porn on tap 24/7.

I've always fantasized about going since I read the details of what goes on inside there. What they have, and how welcoming they are to people like me. I have no secrets with my wife so over the past few weeks we've been discussing this place. This past week she made it clear she feels I should go. So we discussed it on Friday & Saturday (they were having a ladies night on Saturday, where CD's and TG's get in free, free drinks, etc) and she pushed me to go.

After several hours of fighting with the butterflies and nervous scared feelings, I did my make up, but my best stuff on and after getting several re-assurances it was fine I headed out the door.

I didn't make it very far though. Less than a block before I turned around and headed straight back home. I couldn't do it to her, or to us. The chances of something happening there are too high, and the chances of us being okay in the end (for real, despite her assurances) are too low.

When I returned (hardly 10 minutes after I left, including a stop at the store for some chocolate ice-cream and soda) she seemed upset. Unusually upset in my opinion that I was unable to go through with it. So I guess my questions are ...

1. Should I take her up on the offer and go on the next ladies night? Do I just accept the assurances and hope for the best or do I keep plugging away at the assurances until I get to the root of her thoughts on the matter?

2. Is there something I'm missing here? I've never been as pushed to possibly cheat on her like this before, I'm wondering where this is coming from (any thoughts you might have will likely help shed light on the issue).

3. Am I crazy for even considering it?

Thanks, any help would most certainly be accepted

[Sara Jessica]

If I were to list 1,000 places to go when presenting as a female, the place you described would rank #999 at best (as in if I think about it hard enough, I bet I could come up with one worse destination).

Rotten idea, IMHO.

[kimdl93]

Why not ask your wife why she feels you should pursue experimentation with your bicuriosity. It may be easier for you to follow through on this if you understand what she feels about it. But ultimately, it's a matter of what you really want. Don't do it because she wants it...do it if its your desire (provided you really have her support).

And I agree, this particular place sounds horrible. Isn't there a better way to hook up with a guy...something safer and decidedly more hygienic?

[Kathi Lake]

Jessica,

And what has she told you of her desires? Does she want the same privileges? I just cannot fathom a woman pushing her husband into a homosexual affair. That is mind-boggling to me.

Sometimes, when a woman says "Go ahead" it's not permission, but a dare.

Kathi

[Marcia Blue]

I have never understood open marriages. (My first wife was not faithful.) Being married, I could never go to such a place. I applaud your turning around. Being Bi and married, does not change the fact, that you took a vow to be faithful. I would avoid any meat market settings.

[CD_blue]

I can’t say I would have any idea why she would want you to do this. Then again this type of thing/place isn’t my thing, but to each their own. Perhaps it is a sexual thing on her part? I have heard of some females being into their man doing such things. As was said it is possible that she may ask for the same privilege with others. Also I notice you say there that there could possibly be negative things come from this regardless of reassurance. This I think would be main sticking point.

I think you should find out why she is pushing you in this direction there has to some reason. I would for sure find out what the situation is on her end before acting upon anything.

Also you should really consider the risk of disease. I would seriously reconsider this as other than sexual satisfaction you do seem to be risking a lot for it.

[Cynthia Anne]

I think you made the right decision! Ask yourself how would I feel if the tables were turned!

[RADER]

You could go, but just recline any advances made toward you. You could say you where
just seeing what it is like, and you are already in a commitment. You would not be lying.
Rader

[kellycan27]

Maybe she was upset because she had plans for the night.. what's good for the goose and all ... just saying.

[Kelli Ca]

I have to agree with Sara, there are a lot of places you can go to get out. I might try reaching out to other members in your area. I really can't see any good coming from the place you described

[Stephanie47]

Anyway, the issue is there aren't many places a starting out TG can go to have fun, hang out with new people and be as female as possible. With one exception, there is a local "club" of sorts that allows, in fact, encourages TG/CD patrons to show.

That's where it gets a bit complicated, see this place is a no female zone. They don't allow women at all ever. The second issue is that the place is generally a hook-up spot, complete with rooms, beds, etc. From what I've read it's a dark place, glory holes and porn on tap 24/7.

I do not think this is any female's idea of having fun.

[kathtx]

To answer your three questions:
(1) No
(2) Probably. See Kelly's post.
(3) Yes

[ReineD]

Have you and your wife ever had an open arrangement? If not there could be a number of reasons she wants you to go ahead:

• She's thinking of having an affair.
• She's having an affair.
• She wants a divorce and is hoping to claim in Court that you sleep with men in tawdry places, putting her at risk for getting AIDS.

Or ..

• She has no idea what goes on there and she naively wants you to have a good time somewhere dressed.
• She has low self-esttem.
• She's hurt that you might want someone other than her, and she's pushing you to see how far you'll go, as a form of self-punishment.
• She's pushing you hoping that you'll go for it in the hopes that her resulting greater pain will cause her to distance herself from you enough emotionally, that it will no longer hurt to be married to someone who wants others. In other words, she wants to stop caring.

My point with all this is that no one here knows why your wife suggested this. You should ask her until you feel that she is telling you the truth.

If you came home after 10 minutes, it was because you were listening to your gut feelings. They are seldom wrong. Also, being bi is not a license to be unfaithful. It just means that you have the capacity to fall in love with either men or women, one at a time if you are in relationships where agreement was to be monogamous.

[Bree-asaurus]

Reine's post says it all pretty well.

You need to talk more with your wife. You two should not agree to do anything that BOTH of your are not comfortable with.

And if you two really do want an open relationship, that's not cheating. You two are mature, consenting adults and bi nor not, some people are meant to be monogamous and some people aren't. But it does sound like your wife may not be being completely honest here... but only one way to find out... and thats talking to her. Don't do ANYTHING until you find out why she was upset.

Oh... and yeah... GROSS!!! Stay away from seedy places like that!!! *cringes* SAFETY FIRST!!!

[Vickie_CDTV]

I cannot fathom why a wife would encourage her husband to be with a man, let alone in such a high risk and dangerous fashion. Like Reine said, there might be something seriously wrong going on that you wouldn't want to encourage. If she just wants you to go out dressed, there are zillions of better places for her to suggest you go to.

(When I first read it, I thought it sounded like a trap to get a divorce like Reine said.)

[Rogina B]

And I bet the floor is sticky in there and the reason the lights are low is so the genital warts don't stand out...Perhaps your wife is sick of you obsessing on this bisexuality fantasy so she wants you to "just do it" . And then,perhaps the fantasy[by turning it into reality] will fizzle out. Perhaps you are so hooked on your fantasy,that thinking of it is now the only way you get off,so she wants you to refocus.Did she arm you with condoms and flavored lube??

[Noel Chimes]

(the chances of us being okay in the end (for real, despite her assurances) are too low.

When I returned (hardly 10 minutes after I left, including a stop at the store for some chocolate ice-cream and soda) she seemed upset. Unusually upset in my opinion that I was unable to go through with it. )


Pump the brakes here sister. 1. your own "girl sense" starts to tell you something is wrong here. 2. She's upset that you didn't go? Ok ladies, what's wrong with this picture? Something tells me that there's more to this. Plus this does not sound like a respectable woman, CD or TS or would go. Think about your choices.

[Shari]

From what I gather, I have to think that your sex life with your wife is just about non existent.
Also, living in the pink fog could shroud your own perception of what's really going on. Usually, an arrangement like this will come with strings attached or she's already done something outside your marriage and is feeling guilty.
Come down out of the clouds and take a good hard look. Let that gut reaction work for you again when it comes to your Mrs.

[linda allen]

I have never understood open marriages. ........

Same here. "Marriage", by definition means, among other things, being faithfull to each other. If you claim to be married but are having sex or affairs with other people (same gender or not), it's not a marriage, it's a living arrangement. You and your wife are "roomates".

If you really want to see what it feels like to have sex with a man, why not just dress your wife up as a man, buy her a set of prosthetic genitals, and have her do what you want to be done to you? Who knows, she might enjoy it as well.

[JessicaMay]

Wow what an incredible set of responses....and way more than I thought this kind of thing would garner.

I'm not going to try and respond to everyone individually, I think that would be insane . I will, however, try and respond to everyone's comments as points and see if we can clear this up a bit.

1. Firstly from what I've heard of from those with first hand experience. It's not a seedy, rundown sticky floored, screw house. It's a gentlemen's club. There's a bar, dance floor, meeting rooms, party rooms, etc. It is fully accredited and inspected by the appropriate health groups, and such.

That being said, it doesn't remove the "icky" factor of it being a hook-up joint. On this I don't disagree. What I can say for certain is it's not nearly as bad as I made it sound. The rooms are for rent, there are full showers, hot tubs, sauna, etc. Condoms are provided free of charge (they're in little dispensers all over the walls) and they have several health staff available to provide free screenings upon request. Of course that doesn't remove all the danger (which provides even more reluctance to go) but does lend itself to their credibility.

Without going into specifics of where I am, there's no way a place like that could exist here (legally) without providing all of the above services, with recent (and internet searchable) inspections from various agencies. So it's really not a dark seedy underground screw hole to goto, it's just an option to be once you get there.

2. Talking to my wife, that's pretty easy. We do that just about everyday. Infact on Saturday we had spent the entire afternoon together shopping, trying on new clothes and then relaxing at home just talking. It was an awesome day.

Please understand that all of these discussions are not an overnight thing. It wasn't decided Saturday afternoon to table the discussion about the spa, as they themselves refer to it, we have discussed it numerous times over several years. It's only recently that the direction of the discussion moved from reasons why I shouldn't go, to reasons why I should.

The reason, as she has told me, for the recent push in that direction is that there are other issues in this avenue as well. About 6 years ago I told her I was bi (I was already dressing for her a little bit at a time even back then). About 4 years ago we decided to start searching for an appropriate "third" for me to experience. We set out our rules and boundaries and such. In 4 years I've managed to meet plenty of nice people, but it always comes down to the same thing. They're either too flaky and want it now (random hook-ups I guess you'd call them) or they're more interested in her. I'm not interested in some random hook-up, nor someone on from a dating site pretending to be interested in me hooking up with her.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned earlier that I am honest, 100%. I have never told her a lie, or held a secret from her. She's read every post I've made on these forums, she's seen and met everyone I've met, read all my chat logs (or at least any that she was interested in). I'm not lying when I say I am 100% truthful to her in every way that I can be. Which brings me to ...

3. We don't have an open marriage. There is no "open" marriage. As someone stated before once you hit that arrangement your roommates and little else. Obviously why I have a problem "playing" without her present as that has never been the case ever before, and very likely will not be the case in the future.

That being said we're not adverse to the idea of including other people in our bed. We've done so from time to time before. It's nothing new at all. We have well established rules and boundaries that we settled on years ago. Opening the marriage is not open for discussion, for either of us. That doesn't mean (to use a tired old analogy) we want to eat peanut butter sandwiches for the rest of our lives, no matter how much we like peanut butter sometimes you want something else.

We're both open to that idea, we discuss things well in advance and plan out our activities accordingly. I'm not at all adverse to the idea of her being with someone else, and visa versa, provided the rules and such are respected.

Some smaller points,

Sometimes, when a woman says "Go ahead" it's not permission, but a dare.

True I thought of this. Though I don't think she'd be the kind of person to do that sort of thing. In the decade and a half we've been together I have never seen anything to indicate she would do that.

You could go, but just recline any advances made toward you. You could say you where
just seeing what it is like, and you are already in a commitment. You would not be lying.

This was kind of my plan. The question became, could I resist temptation to just go downstairs and get it over with. The answer is, I'm not willing to risk it.

Maybe she was upset because she had plans for the night.. what's good for the goose and all ... just saying.

Obvious thought. As it turns out the look she gave me, and follow up questions she had were a result of shock. She wasn't expecting me to not bother even going. She assumed I would at least have a drink or two before coming home. She apologized profusely for the mixed signals.

My point with all this is that no one here knows why your wife suggested this. You should ask her until you feel that she is telling you the truth.

I've done. We had a nice chat about it last night. I don't have reason to believe she's not telling me the truth any longer.

You two should not agree to do anything that BOTH of your are not comfortable with.

Agreed, clearly as I wasn't comfortable doing it. I didn't. When I returned I informed her as such as well as using the "stop" word which halts everything until we get the opportunity to talk things over and figure out what went wrong, where and how to fix it.

From what I gather, I have to think that your sex life with your wife is just about non existent.

I cannot imagine a statement more wrong about our marriage than this. At all, ever. I'm not going into details with you here, but if we had no sex life, this thread wouldn't exist at all.

Same here. "Marriage", by definition means, among other things, being faithfull to each other. If you claim to be married but are having sex or affairs with other people (same gender or not), it's not a marriage, it's a living arrangement. You and your wife are "roomates".

If you really want to see what it feels like to have sex with a man, why not just dress your wife up as a man, buy her a set of prosthetic genitals, and have her do what you want to be done to you? Who knows, she might enjoy it as well.

Faithful is a sliding term. I'm not unfaithful, nor have I ever considered being. She isn't either, but has considered it. No one is having affairs, please stop assuming such. (edit: forgot a line here ... ) Faithful being sliding means that you can be unfaithful according to someone's scale but not your own. Unfaithful on our scale means anything you're unwilling to share with your partner. If we're aware of what is going on, where and why, then it's not a problem. Otherwise it's cheating. This particular issue (note, I still call it cheating, but she doesn't agree with that term because she gave permission) isn't an issue of fidelity, or trust. It's how far should one go, when given the opportunity to see how far you can go. I think, and standby, my choice to not go speaks volumes to how I view the subject.

Also that last thing, it's been done ... a lot

Anyway we're more on the same page here. I'm still intent on not going. She's agreed that we'll move far more slowly on that front, and that any push from her will stop at this point. For now we'll continue with the dating sites and such, continuing to go out and meet people. It's been 5 or so years now, I can continue to wait it won't be the end of the world for either of us.

Unless it is. In which case ... stay safe classy people.

(also in case it isn't evident, thank you everyone for your responses. You've helped me wrap my head around this and find the right questions to ask. Golf clap all around.)

[linda allen]

I can only put this from my point of view (a husband) and assume that the female (wife) would feel much the same way:

I would hate the thought of my wife being intimate with someone else, male or female. If it had to happen, I would rather not ever know about it. But supposing she wanted to go out and have sex with someone at a pick up place (or anywhere) and I told her it was OK. What would I think about while she was gone? What would I ask her when she came home? "What did it feel like?" "Did you enjoy it?" "Did you (use your imagination, some things aren't appropriate for this forum) to her?" "Did she .......... to you?"

I guess I've become "old fashioned" as I've matured, but to me, some things are sacred and sexual contact is one of those things.

[JessicaMay]

I can only put this from my point of view (a husband) and assume that the female (wife) would feel much the same way:

I would hate the thought of my wife being intimate with someone else, male or female. If it had to happen, I would rather not ever know about it. But supposing she wanted to go out and have sex with someone at a pick up place (or anywhere) and I told her it was OK. What would I think about while she was gone? What would I ask her when she came home? "What did it feel like?" "Did you enjoy it?" "Did you (use your imagination, some things aren't appropriate for this forum) to her?" "Did she .......... to you?"

I guess I've become "old fashioned" as I've matured, but to me, some things are sacred and sexual contact is one of those things.

lol, it's not "old fashioned". I don't disagree with you in essence, but the end result is fun. As I've said we've had sex with other people a few times in our marriage. We respected our rules and boundaries and no harm has come of it. To put it into perspective in nearly fifteen years we've had only a few extras play roles in bed. With out going into specifics, 3x with 1 extra person, 2x with 2, and 1x swap in fifteen years, each separated by about 2 years (average).

We've never been with someone else while the other isn't in the same room. That is where I have the problem. I have no problem with the place, it's not as bad as you think or else it wouldn't be there. Literally, it wouldn't exist. This is the second iteration of the same place, in the same location (different owners) and has become a franchise (there are several like clubs in other cities). I have no problem with the actions. My problem exists in that she cannot be there yet still says it's okay if I go. That doesn't mean I'm going next time she says so either, because I have a serious problem breaking the rules.

Which leads exactly back to our opinions. Infidelity is not cool. Ever. The question at this point I think is. Should I be willing to re-evaluate and modify the rules with changing circumstances or even just changing thoughts on the matter? How far does it go before it becomes infidelity regardless of rules and boundaries on the issue? Meaning, even with a green light from the SO and from the rules, where should the line be?

I'm of the opinion that the rules are fine as they are. She hasn't outright said (though, now thanks to your insight I will ask her this) but it seems like there's a bit of want to re-evaluate the rules. I don't think they need to be, and if she's not cheating on me and or trapping me why would she want the rules changed? Granted in 5 years they've led to absolutely nothing, so there is that. There may be room for some tweaking here and there, but outright changes or scraps, I don't think so.

[Tina B.]

Just wondering out loud, how many "open Marriages" celebrate a 50th wedding anniversary? And whats the difference between an open marriage, and inviting others into your bed?
I was ready to agree with Kelly, then I read what Reine said, and knew there really is no more to be added, I think they are both right.It's a big difference between consent, and being insistent, it makes you go HMMM.

[Beverley Sims]

I suppose we all have weak moments in our lives and when faced with a decision such as yours we all of a sudden, WAKE UP!

[JessicaMay]

Just wondering out loud, how many "open Marriages" celebrate a 50th wedding anniversary? And whats the difference between an open marriage, and inviting others into your bed?
I was ready to agree with Kelly, then I read what Reine said, and knew there really is no more to be added, I think they are both right.It's a big difference between consent, and being insistent, it makes you go HMMM.

Interesting, wouldn't make for a very good survey though as the results wouldn't take into account any variables. Often times people rush into (I'm going to discuss open marriages here for a moment, this isn't insinuation that my marriage is open) an open agreement in a marriage with bursting libidos and too small an education on the subject. I think the more interesting question isn't how many "open marriages" make it to 50, how many of these fail simply because the people involved were too ignorant of the dangers they were playing with. With the appropriate kinds of people (people, not me) and the appropriate kinds of boundaries and rules in place they do actually survive, and thrive. There are many cultures in existence now where this is the standard and not the exception. There have been countless before them. Opening a marriage does not doom it to failure, inexorably. Too often people forget, when you play with fire you get burned.

That of course says nothing of the overwhelming odds all marriages face now anyway. What is it? 60% 70% of marriages end prematurely in divorce. You have a 3 in 5 or 1 in 3 chances of it kicking the bucket anyway. Even being fully faithful, that doesn't mean your partner may be. There are plenty of reasons why a marriage ends, but given the statistically insignificant portion of relationships that are actually "open marriages" their failure rates are nothing compared to general failure rates. While not the point I imagine, and a strawman argument I agree. Still you can't simply shrug off that there aren't many open marriages, and their failures (even if they're 100% of the sum) aren't but a single % of the total failure rates anyway.

I'm no longer willing to entertain posts which posit the strength of my marriage is not at it's best. It is, quite. Has been for a very long time. Do the math, if you read my into post or the few details on my profile you'll note I'm about 30. I've been with my wife for nearly 15 years (yup highschool sweethearts you'd call us, how many of us are around these days?). We've seen thick and thin. We've been penniless, homeless and have lost everything too many times to count. We've faced vindictive family members bent on tearing us apart through various legal and illegal, I may add, ways. We've survived a great loss (I'm not going to ever describe this beyond this line, here) that no relationship has any chance on surviving. We fight with a frequency mirrored by the passing comets, and talk about important things on a daily basis. When I tell you that we're fine, we are. The strength of my relationship is not open for debate. Put aside the bitterness of past pursuits, and believe me when I tell you, for the last time. We're fine, and we've never been better. Honestly.

The difference (in my opinion I didn't write the big book of relationship labeling or anything) between an open relationship and what I have here. Is very simple, one word. Permission. Open means you have permission to do as you please. This isn't a relationship in my books. Which is odd, because it seems I am fighting a strong wind here, only we're heading in the same direction.

When we've brought someone else into our bed, we both brought that person to bed. The key word there, is both.