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Thread: Protective Order

  1. #1
    Member StephanieJ's Avatar
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    Protective Order

    I need help my sisters! My ex-wife was granted a restraining order against me yesterday, which prevents me from having any contact with my children through the end of the month.

    A little background - I have dressed in private since before we were married and her acceptance level waxed and waned. She is a therapist in training who suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder and has been on various psychotropic drugs. Two weeks ago my 76 year old neighbor went senile and murdered his wife with a hammer. The man was a friend who I knew well and in a Facebook post I said that I sympathized with him prayed for him. Apparently my ex took this as a threat.

    In the testimony she gave to obtain the order she said, "He has led a double life for years as a secret cross dresser and has continually hid from me. Although that does not physically threaten me, I want to illustrate that he is deceitful, unpredictable, and ill."

    With that, the judge granted the order! Apparently in small town Utah transgenderism is viewed as a significant threat... I was planning a Thanksgiving trip with my children to visit their grandparents, will now have to be cancelled. (Her real motive in the first place...) I have been advised to seek out the most competent and nasty attorney I can find, which I am doing. Another friend suggested talking to our pastor (who knows our situation and has counseled us in the past.)

    Any other sage advice???

  2. #2
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    When my first wife physically attacked me in front of witnesses the police only told her to go home. I went to a judge and asked for a restraining order and he refused. The law is a bit biased and unfair sometimes. For the next few months she broke into my apartment, damaged my car and did all kinds of mean things to our kids to punish me. The law was not willing to help at all. The only thing I was able to do was eventually move across the country to get away from her.

    She did not know about my crossdressing at all.

  3. #3
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    Forget the pastor idea unless she is glued to his wisdom,which carries no legal abilities. Try to find good legal council educated in tg matters, among other things. Did the judge in fact explicitly base his decision on the fact you are ill from tg activities secretly without any critical proof?
    Get yourself some competent council.

  4. #4
    Member Lady Slipper's Avatar
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    Wow, that is messed up, Stephanie! My heart goes out to you. Good legal counsel is in order. To quote Breaking Bad "Sometimes you need a criminal lawyer, and sometimes you need a criminal lawyer. Better call Saul!

    Oops, double post, mods may delete at your leasure!
    Last edited by Lady Slipper; 11-15-2012 at 11:31 PM.
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  5. #5
    My Ship has sailed? Barbara Ella's Avatar
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    You need the best legal support you can get to point out her lies an deceit in her statements to the judge. Likely nothing can be done right now, but the next time you need to unload on her.

    Barbara
    He (she) who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance.
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    I may never get to fly like the other girls, but I do so want to dance, so I continue to climb.

  6. #6
    Member StephanieJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostalady View Post
    When my first wife physically attacked me in front of witnesses the police only told her to go home. I went to a judge and asked for a restraining order and he refused. The law is a bit biased and unfair sometimes.
    Oh, I'm so sorry. That's terrible, but it brings up an excellent point. The law tends to favor women when it comes to these matters. If it was you who acted that way you would have likely been arrested, yet she walks away with a warning. When I hear stories like this I smile to think that if they only knew... I AM the woman in this relationship, perhaps the law would favor us. But alas, I am dreaming as that will never happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by jillleanne View Post
    Forget the pastor idea unless she is glued to his wisdom...
    Ah, but she is! That's the beauty of it. She is very altruistic and I suspect that if he advised her to back down that she might listen.

    I don't know for sure about "illness" being the grounds for the judges decision, but I will find out until we go to trial. I've certainly given no other grounds whatsoever for the order. Ex wife even admitted in the request that I have never laid a hand on her. (Nor would I!) I'm the most gentile guy you could ever meet, as I believe most of us tend to be.

    You have just made my day!!!!!!! Love that show. It's been such a long crappy week and it feels good to laugh for a minute. THANK YOU.

    I am definitely looking for a criminal lawyer. Do you have Saul's number? LOL (BTW, I'm not just saying that, I literally did laugh out loud...)
    Last edited by Eryn; 11-16-2012 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Merged three consecutive posts. Please use the multiquote button at the bottom right of each post to put all your replys in one post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StephanieJ View Post
    Ah, but she is! That's the beauty of it. She is very altruistic and I suspect that if he advised her to back down that she might listen.

    I don't know for sure about "illness" being the grounds for the judges decision, but I will find out until we go to trial. I've certainly given no other grounds whatsoever for the order. Ex wife even admitted in the request that I have never laid a hand on her. (Nor would I!) I'm the most gentile guy you could ever meet, as I believe most of us tend to be.
    Appeal it. The decision was either biased or based on false I formation.

  8. #8
    Member StephanieJ's Avatar
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    I have lots of evidence to refute her allegations, but what I would love to have is a scientific study of some sort stating that Transgenderism is neither an illness nor is it dangerous. Perhaps I'll have to wait until the new DSM V comes out...

  9. #9
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    Make sure your attorney gets all the documents filed by your wife at the court. You should have access to it so that your attorney can help you prepare an adequate defense. I guy I have coffee with is suffering from something similar, legal action by his wife against him preventing him from seeing his kids without a paid witness. It sucks, but you need to protect yourself too. Good luck.

  10. #10
    Weirdest woman ever! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephanieJ View Post
    I have lots of evidence to refute her allegations, but what I would love to have is a scientific study of some sort stating that Transgenderism is neither an illness nor is it dangerous. Perhaps I'll have to wait until the new DSM V comes out...
    You're dealing with a judge, not a psychiatrist, Stephanie. They normally deal with the law, not "studies". U need a lawyer. The BEST u can find and afford. Restraining orders r like the Little League of legal issues. Sounds like you may be headed for a major custody battle. That's where all personal info may be presented and will be weighed to by a judge. That's the legal Major Leagues! U could lose all contact with your kids! A good attorney will know that and plan accordingly.

    Police generally don't get involved in domestic disputes unless violence is involved. They leave that for judges and court rooms.
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  11. #11
    Full-Time Duality NathalieX66's Avatar
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    Some legal channels:

    http://transgenderlegal.org/

    http://www.lambdalegal.org/


    hope this helps.

  12. #12
    Silver Member giuseppina's Avatar
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    Hello Stephanie

    I am saddened but not particularly surprised that this has happened, as I've seen this sort of nonsense happen myself, but not to me personally. The judge may have made a legal error by allowing stereotyping to enter his judgements. This is way OTT.

    Your ex is still in "fight to the death" mode.

    Aside: Are family law judges elected where you live? If so, it strikes me that this might be a case where political expediency trumped correctness in law.

    Google Scholar is your friend for finding studies about crossdressing and transgenderism, but beware the standard problem with social science studies: they generally don't have enough subjects to make any substantive conclusions by themselves.

    It's time to get the best legal counsel you can find. S/he doesn't have to be nasty, as this will likely be frowned upon by the judge. What is required is an aggressive but professional barrister. A good barrister would have challenged her claims and attempted to have them excluded from evidence because they don't have the backing of an expert witness.

    If your ex had an expert witness (psychiatrist) substantiating her claims, it may be difficult to counter them. I highly doubt a competent and unbiased psychiatrist would make such a claim, as they are untrue unless there are other personality disorders present as determined by a duly qualified and licensed individual. Members of the clergy are neither qualified nor licensed to make such diagnoses.

    Here are some journal papers I posted for another member in your position a few years ago. You should be able to find them with your favourite search engine.

    This is a professional journal article. Payment is required to obtain the full text.

    Surprise! Men Who Cross-Dress Are Similar to Men Who Don't

    Another journal article for which payment is required.

    How Intimate Relationships Are Impacted When Heterosexual Men Crossdress

    This one says accredited social work programs often don't include courses on dealing with crossdressing or other forms of transgenderism. The title and issue of the journal in which it appears is listed. You may be able to find this at a university where social work is taught.

    Social Work Education: Implications for Working With the Transgender Community

    This is a psychologist's website who deals with gender issues. Not all of the information is about transition.

    Anne Vitale PhD: Notes on Gender Role Transition

    This one says transvestic fetishism is not a diagnosable illness simply because society (or some members of society) says it is. The quotes are required to get it to appear at the top of search results.

    "Transvestic Fetishism: Iatrogenic Artifact?"
    BTW: I wouln't hold my breath waiting for DSM V, as the head of the committee studying this sort of thing is not well thought of by the transgendered community.
    Cheers
    Giuseppina

  13. #13
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    What comes to mind in this situation is "irreparable harm". As in there is little to no lasting harm to you for having a "2 week cooling off period" imposed by the courts, but there would be irreparable harm to her if you (hypothetically) took a hammer to her within that two week period. For a very short term order like that, it is almost not worth the judge considering any evidence. What are you going to do, get an emergency counter-injunction just to be able to take your kids on the thanksgiving trip? Not likely.

    Now if the grandparents were dying and this time was the last time to be able to see them together, it would be a different story, but unless you are planning to prove your ex incompetent or otherwise go for sole custody, you are going to have to get accustomed to not spending every holiday with your kids. No inherent harm other than that which happens in divorce cases anyhow.

    There is, of course, the matter of being more or less libeled as being "ill" or potentially violent. Lawyers can help with that issue. I would guess that there is time to file an "objection" before the order expires, but I suspect that "vacating the order" probably wouldn't get heard for some time. It is not uncommon for people in divorce situation to allege harsh things that are interpretations (or even outright fabrications), so there are probably already mechanisms to deal with the implicit libel aspect.

  14. #14
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephanieJ View Post
    Oh, I'm so sorry. That's terrible, but it brings up an excellent point. The law tends to favor women when it comes to these matters.
    This is not true. The law favors the person who knows how to manipulate it best. Take it from a GG who ended up getting the raw end of the deal.

    Get a good lawyer.
    Reine

  15. #15
    eluuzion eluuzion's Avatar
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    Hiya SJ,

    Two things immediately (and painfully) come to my mind here…

    “Loose lips sink ships”…
    AND
    “You don’t need to be a lawyer to be a good liar“.

    Every human being could be described as being “deceitful, unpredictable and ill” at some point in their lifetime. Your case is further proof that lawyers know that “it is not what people do” that is important. It is “how you present what they do in court”, that matters!

    Unfortunately, the legal system and the outcome of litigation has nothing to do with what is “fair” or “not fair”; or what many would perceive to be “justice". The outcome has everything to do with what you can or cannot prove, with documented evidence, in a court of law.

    Legal matters are just one more strategic game we are sometimes forced to play in life. Unfortunately, judgements/orders can be life altering, depending upon the outcome for each party. But make no mistake in perception…it is still a “game“.

    Games require strategy and when emotions and lawyers get involved, all of the stops come out . It is critical to keep both of those (emotions/lawyers) in check to end up with the best result (best interest of the children).

    As you have already discovered, litigation/motions, etc. have a way of immediately revealing the true character of both parties involved. Your “wife” has proven that she is willing to abandon her “moral compass” in exchange for what she perceives to be a vindictive, self-serving, short-term “victory”. (no doubt under the direction of her attorney)

    She has also made that decision at the expense of your children, by placing them in the middle of HER personal battle with YOU (by attempting to “alienate their father”).

    You must now decide if you want to “take her bait”, by going “ballistic”, going to battle, fighting “dirty”, etc. Rest assured that is exactly what she (and her attorney) wants you to do! This will provide them with more “proof” to be used against you later…(that what she is accusing you of is “true”).
    Sadly, it is a typical legal strategy employed at this point.

    The success or failure of their strategy depends upon your response. One option is to refuse to ever “bad mouth” your wife to your kids… maintain consistent contact, support and love for your kids through the entire process, regardless of the outcome with your wife.

    I can guarantee you that is the ONLY thing your kids will remember (and cherish) about you now, and in the future. It is called integrity and character…which all children recognize in a parent, regardless of their age. Get an attorney that knows how to make this happen.

    Just my thoughts…from personal experience.

    Good Luck!

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  16. #16
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephanieJ View Post
    My ex-wife was granted a restraining order against me yesterday, which prevents me from having any contact with my children through the end of the month.
    Quote Originally Posted by eluuzion View Post
    maintain consistent contact, support and love for your kids through the entire process
    How does that work? I would have thought it quite difficult to maintain contact when the restraining order prevents contact.

    I think it is important to find a lawyer who can put across the idea that the OP is only resorting to the law because of the unreasonable behaviour of the ex-wife
    Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.

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  17. #17
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    eluuzion, now you hit the nail on the head with this post. That is exactly how it is. I have been a victim of divorce two times in the past. This is what they do. My first ex wife took everything we had, plus used my daughter as a weapon to get at me for 18 years. Kept her away from me for all the holidays. Tried to brainwash my daughter to hate me and make me out to be a bad man. I did pick her up every two weeks as was ALLOWED by the corrupt court system. The same was with the exes of all my brothers. Lawyers get richer while the fathers get poorer.

  18. #18
    Member Marissa V's Avatar
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    My ex did the same, use my daughter as a weapon. Basicly she just did as she pleased hoping i woudnt object because i didnt want certain secrects to see the light of day. But i did object and so we ended up in court. And there she showed her true face. And yes it was a nasty fight. But never, and i mean NEVER, did it talk about it with my daughter. My ex was a 'dead subject', never talked about my ex with my daughter. And why? Because my daughter needed to get the idea that when she was here, all my time and attention was hers. My ex on the other hand filled my daughter with all kinds of retoric and lies... but it backfired on her. Aswell with my daughter as in court. Ofcourse you need a good lawyer in the process, but keep all the 'anti ex wife' talk for your lawyer, NEVER talk about it with your kids. They dont need to know how much you hate your ex, and they never need to get the feeling they're the stick you use to beat your ex with (wich your ex seems to do). And when your kids ask about it, stick to the facts, never let your emotions in, it only makes the facts sound way worse as they are (in kid's minds). What happened in court? The judge, apart from being smart enough to know CD is not an issue, realised my ex used my daughter as a beating stick. Result....my daughter lives here now, but...i agreed to co-parenting from the start (even in court). Why you may ask. Simple, my daughter didnt need to be the victim of my fight with my wife. WE had problems with each other, not with my daughter. And the judge recognised that...and i got my daughter, be it in a co-prarenting scheduele, but i have the final say, responsibility is all mine.

    And the most unbelievable thing happened 3 days ago....ran into my ex and her new bf...and they both apologised to me, infront of my daughter, for acting like morons....
    You can't fly with the eagles if you sleep with the pigeons.

  19. #19
    eluuzion eluuzion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    How does that work? I would have thought it quite difficult to maintain contact when the restraining order prevents contact.
    Sorry if I confused you Rianna,

    I forgot how specific I need to be on this forum, lol.

    I was referring to the ongoing “process” of dealing with the OP’s wife over thelong term, which I assumed from the context, will be going on well past dealing with the current issue of the “no-contact” order.

    Specific to a “no-contact order“, they always contain specifics outlining what is “legal” in reference to the definition of “contact”. There are many ways of accomplishing consistent “contact” in terms of providing support and reinforcing love to a child beyond simple "physical" contact. A good attorney can provide a “legal” road-map with a suggestion (options) list to follow…(for those who are unable or unwilling to use their imagination).

    Hey, I live in Colorado, but I maintain consistent contact, support and love for my daughter on a daily basis…and she is currently living in Australia! Go figure, eh?

    Hope that clears things up for you.

    Hey SJ...
    I forgot to give you this link too, which may/may not give you some more general information.
    http://transparentcy.org/Custody.htm

    Last edited by eluuzion; 11-16-2012 at 03:56 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  20. #20
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    I can just comment on my case here but the law certainly did favor the woman. It was in a small town in GA. Both of us had decent to good lawyers. We had 3 kids 16, 14 and 6. The law allowed the two over 14 to make the decision of who they wanted to live with. I did not coerce them but they chose me because of the abuse their mother was inflicting on them. The court decided not to hear the evidence of the case after 15 minutes of court (after waiting over a year for a court date) because the judge was eager to go home that friday afternoon. The judgement was for me to get the two older kids, and her to get the youngest one. I had to pay her child support even though I had 2 kids and she had 1. My lawyer told me that I could have fought for custody of the youngest. It would cost me over $20,000 and he said I would not win. Even though I had proof of abuse to me and all 3 kids. The only thing I did that was considered wrong was that after we had been separated almost a year and had already filed for divorce, I had a girlfriend. Didn't matter that she also had a boyfriend. I lost the house, all of my belongings including clothes, family heirlooms, and anything that was in the house. I had to pay child support for years, I had to pay alimony for years, and I lived with harrassment for years. My son will still have nothing to do with her and my daughters are only slightly on friendly terms. As I said due to the physical attacks, and other abuse I had to move across the country to get away from it.

    I took the high road. I never talked bad about their mother to the kids. I allowed them to call her on the phone anytime they wished to. I paid for airplane trips for visitation for my daughter to come and visit me and offerred to pay for the older ones to visit their mom. They refused. I felt like I had to do the right and honest thing so in the future I would not have to be ashamed for what I did. My kids know that now.
    Last edited by Angela Campbell; 11-16-2012 at 09:08 AM.

  21. #21
    Gold Member alwayshave's Avatar
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    I can only suggest that you get a very good attorney, though in some cases it does not help. By means of a war story, I was divorced in Massachusetts, which you would believe would be an enlightened forward looking state. However, most of the judges are women, and of the variety who believe that all men are rapists, and therefore assert that the purpose of divorce is to punish men. This evidenced by child support which is twice the national average and until the legislature stepped in, alimony that only ceases upon death of the wife. I did not see my children for over two years and the court would constantly order my ex-wife to deliver the children on a particular date and time and she never would. Contempt hearings were a joke as the judge would never fine her or throw her in jail, while men in the same hearing who had missed a couple of CS payments would be forced to surrender on Friday evening to spend the weekend in the county lock up. Court appointed guardian ad litem who are all women and don't even bother to interview the father.

    My point is that some courts, especially family courts, are run by women for the benefit of women. This may not be universal, but has been my experience. Thus, keep a cool head and under no circumstances violate the order. Legally work all the issues. Keep a journal of everything so that you can refer to it when the time comes. Having a chronology written down will help you in the long run especially with custody issues.

  22. #22
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    StephanieJ, this is a bad situation for you. Thanksgiving is too close now for you to get anything done about seeing your children due to this new restraining order. All you can do is take whatever she throws at you. As others have mentioned, that even if she violates the original court order, and if you take her to court for contempt, the most they will do is fine her a paltry amount like $25.00 and say not do it again. I used to think that once a couple got divorced that this would be the end of the marital problems. But I have learned that it is the new beginning of problems that will go on and on until your children are grown. I call this being at the foot of the mountain and a long way to go. Just live with what they give you in court. Don't ever badmouth the ex wife to the children. One day they will know the truth. Just always be the best father you can be to them. When the corrupt family courts are in control of your children and life, they don't care about you at all.

  23. #23
    forever in pantyhose Jill's Avatar
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    Wow, a couple things grabbed my attention here. I also live in Utah, I know the incident that you are talking about, the older guy that murdered his wife, tragic story. Your wife has borderline personality disorder and is becoming a therapist?!?! I'm a mental health therapist myself and I find this to be quite alarming. That would be like... a serial criminal becoming a cop. That's the nicest way for me to put that. She takes medication and has been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and you're the one that's 'ill'? Laughable... seriously...

    I have worked in the system in this state long enough to know that the laws are extremely bias on behalf of women. A woman could go to a judge and cry abuse, rape, verbal threats or what have you and the judge signs the order, no questions asked, no investigations are done. I have worked with many distressed men who have their rights stripped from them and are faced with very difficult situations. A close friend of mine lost the right to see his daughter over twelve years ago and he is now just getting his rights back and isn't having to pay a mountain of child support for a child that he couldn't even see. I'm not trying to scare you here, but as a professional, I would strongly advise you to get a lawyer. NOW.

    By the way, I was also recently elected to the VP of the local tri-ess chapter. Our goal for the year is to expand our numbers and reach out to those who are in need of support. We are a small group but a very good one, we have some good people who are very supportive and caring. If you need support, you can come check us out. You don't have to come in girl mode if you're not comfortable with it. Private message me if you're interested.
    Last edited by Jill; 11-16-2012 at 05:32 PM.

  24. #24
    Joanie sterling12's Avatar
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    I think that the last time we reviewed this subject, many of us advised you to get a good lawyer! That temporary restraining order is likely to get changed into a permanent one, especially if she implies that you might do her harm. Face it, The Court is always going to error on the side of CYA. If there would be the smallest chance of trouble, they don't want that trouble to come back, and be linked to The Judge who failed to grant an Order.

    BUT, if you get proper legal representation, you should get reasonable visitation rights. Your being transgendered has NOTHING to do with your relationship with your children. If you haven't involved the kids in any way, it is not germaine! Even in Rural Utah, they can't unreasonably punish you for something like this. If you do start to get flak, also involve The ACLU, and do it quick!

    Now, we are going to advise you one more time. Quit being The Patsy! Your letting your soon-to-be Ex play offense, and you just sit around and take it! She's not going to come back! She's made up her mind! Protect your self and your Rights, and do it now. After this is finished, do your grieving, pick up the pieces, and move on with your life. That's what you should do, because that's all you can do!

    Peace and Love, Joanie

  25. #25
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    I have not ever been a victim of something like this, but I was a court interpreter for about 6 years. I was involved in a few cases like this, and I have seen lots waiting for our cases to come up. In the states I worked in, usually a temporary order is granted in favor of whoever gets there first, to make the complaint. Then a few days or weeks later the judge hears both sides of the story and if there is enough evidence that there is a THREAT to a party, then a permanent one for like a year is granted. I do not see a crossdresser as a threat here but Utah may be different. A judge almost always grants a temporary one on a complaint. I reread the original post and the statement that no physical threat exists, I cannot believe the judge granted it. I would say it is temporary until the next hearing. A good laywer could probably get this dismissed upon the fact that no threat exists. But again I worked in different states. I would probably leave the pastor out of this, but then it seems like the more character witnesses someone has, the better. Whos "side" is the pastor on anyway?

    If a pastor has been involved in counceling for this in the past, then how is this crossdressing "hidden"?
    Last edited by JamieQ; 11-16-2012 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Pastor

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