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Thread: Categories, and their danger to understanding sexuality

  1. #1
    Member Valerie Nova's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Categories, and their danger to understanding sexuality

    Like most of us here, I've spent my life trying to better understand myself. I found myself wishing I was girl before I even knew what a transsexual was, and when I learned about them, I figured that I must be in that category. But of course, it wasn't that simple. People have invented a lot of different categories to describe human sexuality, but the longer I've tried to better understand myself, the more I've realized how counterproductive they are to being able to truly know yourself. Categories are a shortcut to understanding, and may be useful in some situations, but they oversimplify extremely complex issues. This can be necessary for simple-minded or intellectually incurious people, but it often leads to things like racism and other forms of discrimination that people have spent ages trying to stamp out.

    To truly understand yourself and others, it's necessary to avoid lumping people into categories as much as possible. Sometimes, this can be a little awkward. For instance, instead of describing a guy as gay, say he's sexually attracted to men, or that he enjoys having sex with other men. Remember, these are not the same thing, and the latter two descriptions are much more specific and less prone to assumptions.

    Initially, when I was trying to describe my sexuality in terms of categories, I figured I must be transsexual, and maybe bisexual, since I've sort of been attracted to a few different guys, but to nowhere near the extent that I'm attracted to girls. But once I stopped seeking out categories that describe me and just ditched the use of categories almost entirely, I was able to understand myself much better. For instance, I realize now that I'm not exactly transsexual. I'm perhaps right exactly in the middle between female brain and male brain. Depending on my mood, I can swing more one way or the other. When I'm feeling confident and in control of my life, I feel more male. When I'm feeling helpless or controlled, my female side comes out more. I can see things differently "as a woman" or "as a man" and compare the two ways of seeing things depending on how my male or female sides feel about something. Of course, my female side doesn't have an opinion on things like birth control and gender discrimination, because those are things I never had to deal with, but there are plenty of other situations where men and women see things differently. Anyway, I've also realized that although my male side is totally straight, my female side is more bisexual and is attracted to both males and females. I've come to the realization that it's possible for me to feel sexual attraction to a guy, at least on rare occasions, but only if I think about it from a female perspective. Like, in order to feel any degree of sexual attraction to a guy, I first have to think of myself as a girl. Weird, huh? But I suppose it makes sense. Also, I have to express my female side with some regularity, or it starts to intrude on my day-to-day thinking. Like, I'll see women, and start wishing I had her boobs, or her complexion, or her legs. All normal thoughts for women, but really frustrating thoughts to be popping into a guy's head. Expressing my female side usually consists of a degree of dressing up and taking pictures of myself, and doing my makeup. Clothes shopping too, if the occasion warrants it. If I do this enough that it's not as exciting anymore, eventually those female thoughts of longing to be pretty lose some of their intensity. Dressing up isn't an end, or really even the means to an end. It's just the only thing that seems to placate my feminine side so that I can start seeing the world without those frequently-useless female thoughts intruding on my life as much. So, since I enjoy it, and serves some useful outlet for my female side, it's more of a hobby for me. I enjoy assembling outfits, finding great items at thrift stores, and understanding and practicing women's fashion. But I've realized that it's not because I'm really a woman on the inside or anything like that, it's just a part of my personality that I have to deal with in whatever way works for me. As far as my romantic relationships, they've all been pretty good, and with girls a bit younger than myself. I find myself having a similar fashion sense as many girls I know, at least when it comes to women's clothing. When many guys have to give examples of women's clothes they find attractive, they'll often give description reminiscent of strippers or prostitutes, but I always thought that looked trashy. I'm sure I'm not the only guy that thinks this way, but I'm sure less than half do. Once my girlfriend at the time asked what women's clothes I thought were sexy and I gave some response involving cap sleeves and various neck patterns, then mentioned sheath dresses and pencil skirts. She was rather surprised by my answer. Still, I think the fact that I have somewhat of an intuitive understanding of how women think, that many guys don't have, I've never had much trouble understanding girls. Always a good thing. Plus, I intuitively treat my girlfriends as equals, and would be really uncomfortable in any other sort of relationship.

    You've probably noticed that this description of myself is far longer than any that would involve assigning me to various categories. And that is the point. This is deliberately about not taking any intellectual shortcuts. You'll notice that in this description of myself, I didn't assign myself to any categories, nor did I try to. And what would be the point? Would there be any use to assigning myself to some category like "transgendered" or "bisexual"? I don't think so, and they're far more liable to cause misunderstandings.

    By the way, if you found yourself thinking "genderqueer" when reading my description of my sexuality, you've just proven my point that categories are useless by mentally assigning me to the most useless category of all.

    Anyway, I challenge anyone who's interested to try describing or coming to terms with their own sexuality without falling into the trap of assigning themselves to categories. Describe yourself in terms of your thought patterns, likes and dislikes, emotions, etc. Also, I'm not counting "male" and "female" as being categories that you shouldn't try to assign yourself to, because the distinction between the two sexes is the entire basis for human sexuality. So yes, categories like "male" and "female" are appropriate, but these categories aren't human inventions like other categories often used to describe human sexuality.

  2. #2
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    I think categories are a useful tool to describe groups but not individuals. Red can be many colors. To describe myself I would have to say I am a male who prefers to behave as feminine as possible. Sexual orientation is kind of like an appetite. It usually has certain preferences but can change from day to day and from one part of life to another. Everyone has their preferences and they are all a little different. Some men who are attracted to woman like thin girls and others prefer more full figured ones. I prefer thinner, smaller breasted very feminine ladies. As I am a bit submissive I also prefer a more dominant partner. To me it doesn't matter what is between their legs I am attracted to a feminine looking and acting person only. I don't really care for masculine people whether for a lover or for a friend, although I do have some masculine friends, I just prefer the other.

    If I used categories to describe me then here it is. I am Popeye....I yam what I yam.

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    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    Personally, I've always found it best to look at another person for who they are as a person, rather than as a "this, that or the other thing". Categories are convenient for reference sometimes but you can't really sum up a person in a few words or paragraphs. The only real way is to get to know them personally. Even then, I prefer to use the person's name rather then pronouns when possible. Who we and others are is in no way simplistic as you also say Hon.
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

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    AKKaren AKKaren's Avatar
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    [SIZE="3"]I agree with you, Kate. It's the person not the label I want to know. I have several friends that just don't fit in any hole...they're just people I care about![/SIZE]
    [SIZE="4"][/SIZE]

  5. #5
    Member Valerie Nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Simmons View Post
    Personally, I've always found it best to look at another person for who they are as a person, rather than as a "this, that or the other thing". Categories are convenient for reference sometimes but you can't really sum up a person in a few words or paragraphs. The only real way is to get to know them personally. Even then, I prefer to use the person's name rather then pronouns when possible. Who we and others are is in no way simplistic as you also say Hon.
    Fair enough, but I'm thinking more along the lines of understanding and empathizing with other people. Like, if someone adamantly disagrees with me, I will always to everything in my power to understand their line of thinking, and try and figure out what assumptions are underlining their point of view. It's not just about dissecting a person's motivation, I'm referring to the way we go about trying to understand others, and more importantly, ourselves. For instance, it's much kinder to see a situation from another person's point of view rather than just write them off as being wrong or irrational, as many people do.

    The reason I brought this up was the number of posts I see here, of people talking about how they're either TG, TV, TS, GQ, etc. Often, they say it as though it was some sort of profound revelation to them. But I think that categorizing themselves like this is the wrong way to go about understanding their own sexuality. People look to these categories as a way to define themselves, when really their own sexualities are doubtlessly much more complex than they give themselves credit for.

    Quote Originally Posted by AKKaren View Post
    [SIZE="3"]I agree with you, Kate. It's the person not the label I want to know. I have several friends that just don't fit in any hole...they're just people I care about![/SIZE]
    Right, but knowing yourself is also extremely important, and sometimes it can be difficult to analyze the analyzer, so to speak. You essentially have to root out and eliminate all your own biases.

  6. #6
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    I really do not know what I am but I just think positive and wear bra and panties till I sort myself out.
    That may take a looong time, I have other priorities first. At the moment it doesn't hurt a bit.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

  7. #7
    Diamond Member Persephone's Avatar
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    Beautifully stated, Vir!

    Categories are nothing but ways to group people so that you can dismiss their individuality and manipulate them politically. Very useful to politicians who thrive on race, class, and gender warfare.

    Thank you for an excellent post!

    Hugs,
    Persephone.
    "If you are living the life you want to live you've successfully transitioned to being the person you want to be." - Eryn.

    "If you truly care about me you should damn well want for me what I want for myself" - Michael Westen (Burn Notice)

    -.-. --.-/-.-. --.-/-.-. -../ Persephone™ and Persephone™ are trademarks of Persephone herself, accept no substitutes. The terms "en femme" and "en drab" originated with Marcia Sampson/Staylace (OBM).

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    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    I like labels and use them a lot. It helps me get a quick picture of someone or something that I do not know personally. I am far from simple minded and incurious. I like to think that I am much more than that and extremely curious about all things and people. That being said, the label is only the beginning of my knowing someone else. The rest takes conversation and observation. I disagree with you that using a label will not help me to understand myself or others. I studied engineering and I know that a lot of engineers are very detailed in how they look at things. So, that is my starting point when talking to someone who is an engineer. I know that I probably can get into the details of how something works or some particular topic and that we can have a great conversation about it. If someone does not want to use labels, that is also fine with me. Some think and then talk and others talk and think at the same time (like me) neither is better, it is just how each of us deals with things and live our lives. You have spent your whole life trying to understand yourself and I have spent mine just living, surviving and trying to learn more about the world, which also includes me. However, I never dwell on learning about me, because I am me and accept it as natural to be constantly changing as I take this hopefully long journey called life. I understand that it is not easy but I just live my life as best possible and deal with the changes as they happen, worry about the things I may be able to do something about and learn to live with those things that are beyond my control. It works for me.

  9. #9
    Member AllyCDTV's Avatar
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    I find it amazing how many threads there are here about defining whether someone is straight or gay. The truth is, it only matters to the people directly involved. The more I learn about sexual preferences, the more I believe that it is impossible to use any amount of categories let alone 2 to describe everyone.

    I find that the objects of my sexual attraction can vary based on a large amount of variables. I believe it is pointless to spend time analyzing it. I just go with the flow as long as I am not hurting anybody in the process.
    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think." - The Buddha

  10. #10
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    Just remember that words are abstractions - creations of the imagination that allow us to share information with each other. But while we may use labels to describe ourselves to each other, we need not feel boxed in or defined by the words we use. Generally, the words and the commonly held definitions are simply not quite adequate to describe us as individuals. Use them to understand and inform, not to label oneself or others..

    as to gay, bi and straight, again, they're terms that help us describe or understand ourselves, but in application to any individual can be inadequate to the task. Each of us is unique. There are individuals who are totally straight - attracted only to the opposite sex, there are predominantly heterosexual males and females who on rare occassions are attracted to others of their gender, and at the other extreme there are individuals who are only attracted to others of their gender. And there are a host of variations inbetween. The labels can't adequately express the degree of variation. So, pick your own point and enjoy yourself, safely.
    Last edited by kimdl93; 11-17-2012 at 03:05 PM.

  11. #11
    Life is for having fun. suzy1's Avatar
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    Following on from Kim,
    I am me. That’s my label. I am unique. You are unique. All of us are unique.

    Who here is getting a bit fed up with labels......... please put your hands up?

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    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    I agree Vir and being honest with ourselves is the absolute beginning of understanding not only ourselves but others as well.
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

  13. #13
    The Girl will Out! Kaz's Avatar
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    Hi Vir... Kim, Suzy and I are pretty much in line on this... we are who we are... I feel no need for a label. OK kinship is good, but I have that here... I have it because I have posted and expressed my views and have made connections...

    What am I? CD yeah, I dress in women's clothes at times.. TS yeah I fantasise about being a woman, and sometimes wish I was one... and then the slope gets slippery and potentially bitchy as we categorise..

    What I will say is that there are many people here who just amaze me in what they have gone through in order to express their real 'self'. They don't need categories. they need to be just accepted for who they are... real genuine people
    Kaz xx

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    Junior Member shellie marie's Avatar
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    wow Kaz well said

  15. #15
    Member Valerie Nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllieSF View Post
    I like labels and use them a lot. It helps me get a quick picture of someone or something that I do not know personally. I am far from simple minded and incurious. I like to think that I am much more than that and extremely curious about all things and people. That being said, the label is only the beginning of my knowing someone else. The rest takes conversation and observation. I disagree with you that using a label will not help me to understand myself or others. I studied engineering and I know that a lot of engineers are very detailed in how they look at things. So, that is my starting point when talking to someone who is an engineer. I know that I probably can get into the details of how something works or some particular topic and that we can have a great conversation about it. If someone does not want to use labels, that is also fine with me. Some think and then talk and others talk and think at the same time (like me) neither is better, it is just how each of us deals with things and live our lives. You have spent your whole life trying to understand yourself and I have spent mine just living, surviving and trying to learn more about the world, which also includes me. However, I never dwell on learning about me, because I am me and accept it as natural to be constantly changing as I take this hopefully long journey called life. I understand that it is not easy but I just live my life as best possible and deal with the changes as they happen, worry about the things I may be able to do something about and learn to live with those things that are beyond my control. It works for me.
    I don't mean that categories are a useless tool to understanding people, just that they have a way of falling apart when used to describe human sexuality. Like, we try and categorize people by various sexual and gender orientations, because that's the usual scientific way of seeing the world, but in this case, it's so complicated that categories are only of limited use.

    The reason I mentioned myself, is that initially, I had a very hard time figuring out how exactly to categorize myself, then kind of came to the realization that categories are artificial, and that we probably shouldn't use them to the extent we do to describe human sexuality. I see people falling into this trap over and over, asking questions like "am I gay?" or "am I a transsexual?" and I guess my point is, you shouldn't bother to try and fit yourself into any categories, and should instead ask yourself questions that reveal more information, like "do I fantasize about people of the same sex?" and "could I fall in love with someone of the same sex?" not as a way to answer the question of whether you're gay, but to understand yourself irrespective of that.

  16. #16
    Member Valerie Nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Hi Vir... Kim, Suzy and I are pretty much in line on this... we are who we are... I feel no need for a label. OK kinship is good, but I have that here... I have it because I have posted and expressed my views and have made connections...

    What am I? CD yeah, I dress in women's clothes at times.. TS yeah I fantasise about being a woman, and sometimes wish I was one... and then the slope gets slippery and potentially bitchy as we categorise..

    What I will say is that there are many people here who just amaze me in what they have gone through in order to express their real 'self'. They don't need categories. they need to be just accepted for who they are... real genuine people
    I suppose, but thinking about it practically, there's more to life than that. I mean, should you get married if you think you might leave your wife for a man, or might end up with a sex-change operation some day? These are very important things to know, not just for your own sake, but for the sake of others who may end up in a relationship with you. You can just spend your life doing whatever you want, and saying people should accept your decisions, which is true to an extent, but if there's a wife or girlfriend or kids in the picture, then this no longer becomes true.

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    Member Valerie Nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllyCDTV View Post
    I find it amazing how many threads there are here about defining whether someone is straight or gay. The truth is, it only matters to the people directly involved. The more I learn about sexual preferences, the more I believe that it is impossible to use any amount of categories let alone 2 to describe everyone.

    I find that the objects of my sexual attraction can vary based on a large amount of variables. I believe it is pointless to spend time analyzing it. I just go with the flow as long as I am not hurting anybody in the process.
    That reminds me of a guy in a thread on some other forum who was lamenting over the fact that he had sex with a guy and didn't know if that made him gay. So I asked him "If you went on vacation to Mexico, would that make you Mexican?" I thought it was a good answer, and maybe someone else might find it useful.

    As far as going with the flow, or wherever your passions take you, I suppose the main risks come in to play when there's a spouse or children involved, at which point this is no longer possible if you're a responsible adult.

  18. #18
    Member Valerie Nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
    Beautifully stated, Vir!

    Categories are nothing but ways to group people so that you can dismiss their individuality and manipulate them politically. Very useful to politicians who thrive on race, class, and gender warfare.

    Thank you for an excellent post!

    Hugs,
    Persephone.
    Personally, I wouldn't be that cynical, and I think that the categories we use to describe people and sexuality stem more from a scientific view that tends to break the world down into little chunks that are easier to understand. We wouldn't use it if it wasn't so useful, but there are many things that this process doesn't work very well for.

  19. #19
    Member AllyCDTV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vir Nova View Post
    As far as going with the flow, or wherever your passions take you, I suppose the main risks come in to play when there's a spouse or children involved, at which point this is no longer possible if you're a responsible adult.
    Exactly. That's why I said, as long as I wasn't hurting anybody. And along with that you have to understand that anything you do with someone else when emotions are involved has consequences, even if the other person claims there are no strings attached.
    "We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think." - The Buddha

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