Deliberately "NOT" passing.

[UNDERDRESSER]

I know that some of you don't try to pass. I've been contemplating going out crossdressed, but not trying to pass. In my case, I'm planning on starting out with a kilt, and finding what sort of response I get. Note, I'm planning on a hiking kilt, it's fairly obviously not a traditional kilt, but the cut and fit are distinctly different from a regular skirt. If I can deal with the reactions I get from that, i'm planning on a skirt, somewhat utilitarian, pockets, wash and wear type of thing, "hiking" skirt if you will. I'm not going to wear breast forms, or a wig, I might wear something unconventional as a top, maybe an embroidered Indian style tunic. I'd also like to wear opaque stockings, leggings, or thigh highs. The point is, I just want to be able to wear a different form of clothing, but not mimic the look of a female.

How many of you do this? How many of you do the whole thing, in respect to clothing, but don't try to hide the fact you're male? i.e. stubble, beard, etc.

[ArleneRaquel]

Never, never, never. I may not " pass " as often that I would like, but always wear female hair, and conceal as much as I can with foundation and concealer.

[Cristi]

I own a few kilts and have worn them quite often. (two 'hiking' kilts of a more traditional tartan material, and two 'utilikilts'.) Strangely, I get more attention (that I notice) when wearing a kilt than I do when fully dressed as a woman! But in no way has it been bad. I've done quite a bit of hiking and camping in a kilt, and also wear one often for yard work. I've never gotten a negative reaction.

I've considered, when the temperature starts going down, adding tights under the kilt, but don't know if that would be crossing a line as far as acceptance goes. I DO, however, have nice wool knee socks that look great with it!

I've always got my eye out for a nice top to go with the kilt (so far I've just worn a tshirt). Something like a loose fitting linen top would be nice, but I'd avoid going too 'feminine' with it.

[justmetoo]

To the OP - that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do and i think it would be great if more guys did that. It could help break down some barriers and give more people more options. That said, so far when I've gone out I've dressed to not stand out, to blend in as much as i can. And I do enjoy the hair, makeup, etc. The whole "femme' package as it were. Freedom of expression should apply to everyone, whether that's someone fully crossdressed to appear as the "opposite' gender, partially dresssed and not trying to "pass", dressed as their own gender/birth sex, etc. As long as it's not obscene and doesn't hurt anyone it's all good.
Good luck to you! I hope you don't "pass"!

[MonctonGirl]

A man going out in women's clothing and not attempting to pass is making one of the following two statements:

1. I am doing this for a joke. ( And people will joke with you or give you a hard time in that spirit )

or

2. I have anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment and am deliberately seeking to bother people with my presence and seeking negative reactions and you can expect confrontation from me because I am insane and don't know it...best to avoid me like a plague


Going out in a kilt - lots of Scots & Brits do it - but they have an appropriate top garment ( eg Blazer ) and socks. You will not get reactions from the kilt with which you can gauge reaction to full-femme.

EDIT:

I've thought alot about what you wrote - maybe you feel it's "baby steps" for your coming out
but I think it is baby steps in the wrong direction and you may be too confused to see that doing it
"half-assed" and failing on purpose is worse than trying your best and worrying about passing.

You may be so afraid to fail that you are inclined to go that way to feel safe and not feel rejection
from trying your hardest to look feminine and not succeeding. Maybe you just need some help
from someone who can pick out a good outfit and do you makeup and consult on hair, etc.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Well im a Scot & could have worn a kilt many years ago. & nothing would have been said many of our people with in our regeon are Scots, im allso a Sottish member of our Soc,

as a woman ill be wearing for our Scottish week end a cream long skirt a cream blouse & a tartan sash plus my bonnet known as a Glengarry with the tartan around it with a tassal on the top., most of us with in our Edwardian group are women , we do have about 5 men who come & they dress quite smart as well.

I would like to say had you lived here in New Zealand in the south isl youd be more wellcome as to wearing kilts or even a skirt as a male it would not be strange .

I on the other hand am a woman so for me being accepted is quite easy yet i dont show the facial features of a woman nore can i , mind you a lot of work & talking plus being interviewed for T V & papers helped me, in being accepted,

Mind you , youd have ta have an acsent to pass here, a right southern roll your rrrrrr.s he he ... ill let ya off if ya do come over, Aye. my family comes from Kilmarnock , Scotland, & with the name of Loch-head. means Head of the Loch.

Id say youll not be able to say it correctly though, its similar to the plane commany lockheed, said like Lo- heed you miss the ch out, oh well history lesson over,

...noeleena...

[Wildaboutheels]

The simple REALITY is NO ONE here is a MIND READER. Assuming you "passed" because no one said anything is simply delusional. Nothing wrong with doing your very best to pass or blend in. It's a noble and admirable goal and by looking at many pics here, I would think many here would never get a second glance from Joe Doe public... but... Do people here really think that EVERY person in public who figures it out is going to approach and ask if you are a man in women's clothes? Or want to know why you are wearing women's clothes? They DO NOT CARE. Why should they? Just wear what you want. I think once a person stops worrying about passing, CDing will become a lot more FUN or enjoyable as many can attest to

People do want it to be FUN don't they?

[Jamie001]

a man going out in women's clothing and not attempting to pass is making one of the following two statements:

1. I am doing this for a joke. ( and people will joke with you or give you a hard time in that spirit )

or

2. I have anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment and am deliberately seeking to bother people with my presence and seeking negative reactions and you can expect confrontation from me because i am insane and don't know it...best to avoid me like a plague


going out in a kilt - lots of scots & brits do it - but they have an appropriate top garment ( eg blazer ) and socks. You will not get reactions from the kilt with which you can gauge reaction to full-femme.

Edit:

I've thought alot about what you wrote - maybe you feel it's "baby steps" for your coming out
but i think it is baby steps in the wrong direction and you may be too confused to see that doing it
"half-assed" and failing on purpose is worse than trying your best and worrying about passing.

You may be so afraid to fail that you are inclined to go that way to feel safe and not feel rejection
from trying your hardest to look feminine and not succeeding. Maybe you just need some help
from someone who can pick out a good outfit and do you makeup and consult on hair, etc.

i am very insulted by this post!!

There are some members such as myself that are feminine males and we incorporate feminine items into our everyday presentation. We don't pass, nor do we feel the need to pass. To insinuate that we have some type of personality disorder is downright insulting!!!

We don't often see men who wear skirts, but I quite like the look. I think it looks rather rugged, if it's done right, and if the guy has a lot of self-assurance. I guess the deciding factor is no attempt at having feminine legs, with shoes that are unmistakably male. I've posted pics in many threads, but here are a few more:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_glFJiPFcSv...cobs-skirt.jpg
http://owlposse.com/wp/wp-content/up...tBostonCom.jpg
http://colleenanderson.files.wordpre...03/skirts2.jpg
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages...42a9fdae22.jpg
http://www.northwestcoin.ca/irenat01.jpg
http://www.dividedbytruth.org/images/sissy_in_skirt.jpg

I think these looks would raise a different kind of eyebrow:

http://realmenhavespoken.files.wordp.../menskirt1.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...A0XqXx8fAGC-pT
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jwwhKpc9BN...0/P1030521.JPG
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000..._3_xlarge.jpeg

The first group portrays men who are not attempting to cross-dress or look feminine, but who are attempting to redefine men's styles. The men in the second group are still presenting as men, but they do cross into the feminine realm with the way they've put their look together. I think that people would be confused by this in a different way than they would be, just seeing some guy who wears something that looks like a kilt.


But, if you live in a conservative area, be prepared to raise eyebrows just the same:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/talendor/skirt400.jpg

Reine,

The idea is not not look completely male by adding feminine items such as skirts and shoes. Not all men want to look rugged. Where does this notion come from? Some men want the freedom to look both masculine and feminine at the same time! The idea is to break-down barriers regarding what is acceptable for males and females by blending, much like women have done in their incorporation of many male fashion items (see articles in Cosmo and other magazines over the last 10 years).

This is exactly the kind of animosity I was concerned about when joining this forum. I am not a wannabe woman. I'm a guy in a dress (or whatever).
MonctonGirls divisive comments are not helpful. True TVism is neither a joke nor an anti-social personality disorder. The intent is not to annoy people. And frankly, unless you show up in church or some formal situation, you're unlikely to do so any more than the gg dressed as a **** or your typical "people of Wal*Mart attire.

I sympathize and completely agree with you. I am very insulted by MonctonGirls comments. I would like to see the mods delete her insulting post.

[Eryn]

...Not all men want to look rugged. Where does this notion come from?...

Mimi and I were discussing this very thing the other day when strolling through Macy's. We were standing at the boundary of the Men's and Women's department and were rather struck by the difference perceived by simply turning one's head even if you didn't focus on the clothes. On one side was a kalidoscope of color, on the other side a drab combination of blacks, browns, dark blues and dark greens. "Drab" is a perfectly descriptive word, isn't it?

Mimi had the idea that this might stem from the romanticized cowboy era of the 1880s to the 1950s. Good Men were supposed to be rugged and utilitarian, and expressions of style or beauty were definitely considered to be effete. The exception to this were the singing cowboys of the B movie era, but everybody else toed the drab line lest they be considered "sissies."

A film clip to illustrate the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OaA3LZHbQs

[Ceri Anne]

A man going out in women's clothing and not attempting to pass is making one of the following two statements:

1. I am doing this for a joke. ( And people will joke with you or give you a hard time in that spirit )

or

2. I have anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment and am deliberately seeking to bother people with my presence and seeking negative reactions and you can expect confrontation from me because I am insane and don't know it...best to avoid me like a plague


Going out in a kilt - lots of Scots & Brits do it - but they have an appropriate top garment ( eg Blazer ) and socks. You will not get reactions from the kilt with which you can gauge reaction to full-femme.

EDIT:

I've thought alot about what you wrote - maybe you feel it's "baby steps" for your coming out
but I think it is baby steps in the wrong direction and you may be too confused to see that doing it
"half-assed" and failing on purpose is worse than trying your best and worrying about passing.

You may be so afraid to fail that you are inclined to go that way to feel safe and not feel rejection
from trying your hardest to look feminine and not succeeding. Maybe you just need some help
from someone who can pick out a good outfit and do you makeup and consult on hair, etc.

I agree completely. Either dress or not. Going out thinking your testing the waters in a kilt, really isnt testing the waters, and trying to "not pass" really comes across as a joke.

[Jamie001]

I agree completely. Either dress or not. Going out thinking your testing the waters in a kilt, really isnt testing the waters, and trying to "not pass" really comes across as a joke.

Trying to not pass is not a joke, it is our lifestyle! Just because it is your view doesn't make it reality. Gender is a spectrum and many of us are on different points on the gender spectrum. There are folks on this forum such as myself that are both feminine and masculine and we express both of those characteristics in our everyday presentation. Why can't folks here wrap their heads around this concept? As one member stated in this thread, Gender Queer folks that present as male and female simultaneously face more ridicule here on crossdressers.com than we do out in the real world! I can personally verify that fact. Why do we have such dissension and disrespect of differences within our own community?

[JenniferMBlack]

I agree completely. Either dress or not. Going out thinking your testing the waters in a kilt, really isnt testing the waters, and trying to "not pass" really comes across as a joke.

It is not a joke it is not anti social. I am willing to bet I get more social interaction as a man wearing a skirt or a kilt,then you do fully dressed trying to pass. I have been approached by many popele while wearing a skirt and even been asked out by a few girls. Now I am not saying everyone finds it interesting or accepts it but far more will approach me then would if I am trying to be full girl as I don't pass and am clearly a guy trying to look like a woman. I infact feel more like a joke trying to pass then just wearing a skirt.

Plus what is the point in getting all dressed up and going out if you are to afraid to let poeple know it is you? Do you have a whole diffrent set of friends as your female self?
I would much rather go hang out with my friends and or family while wearing a skirt then go hide out some where trying to pass in a city 100 miles away.

IN addition I have to fully agree with the others who said they have recieved more negativity here on this forum then out in the real world. I will not put you down and say you are a joke for wanting to pass but for me it is not who I am or what I want to acheive, so for you to put us down and call us jokes for not wanting to is not cool.

[MsJanessa]

Never, never, never. I may not " pass " as often that I would like, but always wear female hair, and conceal as much as I can with foundation and concealer.

Ditto--what she said

[ReineD]

We don't often see men who wear skirts, but I quite like the look. I think it looks rather rugged, if it's done right, and if the guy has a lot of self-assurance. I guess the deciding factor is no attempt at having feminine legs, with shoes that are unmistakably male. I've posted pics in many threads, but here are a few more:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_glFJiPFcSv...cobs-skirt.jpg
http://owlposse.com/wp/wp-content/up...tBostonCom.jpg
http://colleenanderson.files.wordpre...03/skirts2.jpg
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages...42a9fdae22.jpg
http://www.northwestcoin.ca/irenat01.jpg
http://www.dividedbytruth.org/images/sissy_in_skirt.jpg

I think these looks would raise a different kind of eyebrow:

http://realmenhavespoken.files.wordp.../menskirt1.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...A0XqXx8fAGC-pT
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jwwhKpc9BN...0/P1030521.JPG
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000..._3_xlarge.jpeg

The first group portrays men who are not attempting to cross-dress or look feminine, but who are attempting to redefine men's styles. The men in the second group are still presenting as men, but they do cross into the feminine realm with the way they've put their look together. I think that people would be confused by this in a different way than they would be, just seeing some guy who wears something that looks like a kilt.


But, if you live in a conservative area, be prepared to raise eyebrows just the same:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/talendor/skirt400.jpg

[susan54]

I frequently wear skirts in public as a man. Usually this is for comfort in very hot weather - you need something that wafts in the breeze. I de-hair my legs and wear chunky sandals (my toes have very conspicuous Minx on them) and I get very few reactions, none of them negative (most of them are versions of "Wow" from both genders or "I love the skirt" from women). In cooler conditions I wear opaque tights and usually ballet type pumps but occasionally heels with fairly robust heels (slender heels would look too feminine). My legs look good, so WTH.

I have a kilt but do not wear it at present due to the hair-free legs. Wearing a kilt makes you feel very masculine, and you end up walking with a swagger. But you DO get comments wearing a kilt, especially in England! If it winds 'em up this is encouragement to wear it more frequently in England.

[willnotwill]

This is exactly the kind of animosity I was concerned about when joining this forum. I am not a wannabe woman. I'm a guy in a dress (or whatever).
MonctonGirls divisive comments are not helpful. True TVism is neither a joke nor an anti-social personality disorder. The intent is not to annoy people. And frankly, unless you show up in church or some formal situation, you're unlikely to do so any more than the gg dressed as a **** or your typical "people of Wal*Mart attire.

[Lynn Marie]

[SIZE="4"]This is a forum for cross dressers. If you just want to wear kilts outdoors, then why are you here? A million Scots men wear kilts and look good doing it. It's already been done and done well. Time to get dressed, step into your heels, paint your face, and crown your glory with some big Texas hair and step out and strut your stuff! [/SIZE]

[Aloha Jayne]

I just wanna be me. This is obviously a hot topic. But I'm with the OP on this. I still have my goatee. I would shave it off but the SO likes it. And I've never tried wigs or make-up but I'm not against it and want to some day. While the thought of passing and being treated as a woman in public is very intoxicating, I just wanna be me. If that means wearing a cute top, and a skirt with my nails done and some accessories with no make-up or wig, then that's what I want.

Yes the public gets freaky about it. I find that they perceive me as:
1. a total loon
2. so effing rich I don't care what they think
3. I know something they don't.

And in each of these cases, I get a lot of respect because you don't want to mess with any of the three.

I like where you're going with this underdresser. You do what you want and everyone else can go stick their head in the sand. ^_^

[reb.femme]

I sympathize and completely agree with you. I am very insulted by MonctonGirls comments. I would like to see the mods delete her insulting post.

Hi Jamie,

MonctonGirl rasies a legitimate point of view, if not one that you can agree with. Maybe the reply is harsh, but how much it plays out in real life is yet to be discovered. I personally would not go the way you are going, but then conversely, you would not follow my path,....quite understandably.

However, to argue for personal freedom of expression and then to ask the mods to delete a reply is a little contradictory. That's why we have the ignore button. That way, you don't have to see a particular posters comments or posts, unless someone else quotes them that is!

Rebecca (Today's Devil's Advocate)

[donnatracey]

Hi Jamie,

MonctonGirl rasies a legitimate point of view, if not one that you can agree with. Maybe the reply is harsh, but how much it plays out in real life is yet to be discovered. I personally would not go the way you are going, but then conversely, you would not follow my path,....quite understandably.

However, to argue for personal freedom of expression and then to ask the mods to delete a reply is a little contradictory. That's why we have the ignore button. That way, you don't have to see a particular posters comments or posts, unless someone else quotes them that is!

Rebecca (Today's Devil's Advocate)

Well said, Rebecca...the devil has another advocate today.......


Reine....as usual you are "spot on", (and diplomatic as always) as the Brits would say but I fear you are fighting a losing battle with Jamie.....

[ReineD]

Reine,

The idea is not not look completely male by adding feminine items such as skirts and shoes. Not all men want to look rugged. Where does this notion come from? Some men want the freedom to look both masculine and feminine at the same time! The idea is to break-down barriers regarding what is acceptable for males and females by blending, much like women have done in their incorporation of many male fashion items (see articles in Cosmo and other magazines over the last 10 years).

I know, sorry. I was attempting to show what men who wear skirts might get away with, vs. not. I'm looking at it from the average onlooker's viewpoint, if it is important for a CDer to not seem too "out there" under current cultural gender-norms. Also, there was a recent thread where some members said their aim was not to look feminine but to wear skirts, and so I posted pics of a look that might work for this, with the idea that skirts do not necessarily need to be feminine (i.e. kilts or utility skirts).

If it is important for you to incorporate femininity without presenting as a woman (a look that is closer to the second set of pics that I posted), you need to be prepared to get stared at even more in my opinion than just wearing a utility kilt, or even to be seen as gay. I know that men who wish to incorporate femininity in their appearance are not necessarily gay, but I'm afraid this is just how most people see the men who attempt to feminize their legs, or their nails, or wear heels or incorporate other decidedly feminine items of clothing all while presenting as men. But, if this doesn't matter to you, then all is good.

Personally, I much prefer going out with my SO when she is fully dressed and presenting as a woman than if s/he should attempt to combine a feminine/masculine look in guy mode. This way, my SO does pass under the radar to most people until she actually interacts with someone, at which time her inner being shines through and the person/people we interact with are more likely to accept who she is rather than think of her as just being "weird", as people do, who look at others from afar. But, this is just me.

[Dawn cd]

I must say I shared (put didn't post) some of monctongirl's reaction, because in-your-face presentation is often perceived as a hostile act. It can be interpreted as: "Look at me. I don't care what you think because you're insignificant." Underdresser could have clarified things by explaining WHY he wanted to appear in public that way. Is it to expand the options of male attire, as some have suggested, or another reason? As someone who also affects an androgynous style, I am not unsympathetic.

[Nikki_C]

Some very interesting and provoking thoughts.

At where I work, there is a fellow that wear a utility kilt almost daily during the summer months. Most folks here do have an initial look but never really have a bad reaction. Most folks here thought it was awesome.

I really appreciated the trail blazers whom are taking down the gender specific clothing barriers that society had placed on us. I wish I have the courage that many of you have shown. May be one day...

While shopping for ski jackets for the boys, my wife had commented that society is very accepting for girl to wear boy clothes but not the other way around.

But I think that barrier is slowly being broken down. Afterall, it is just a piece of cloth that we wrap around ourselves. It is no different than wrapping a towel around the waist after stepping out of the shower!

I have to have more courage...

[Jamie001]

Some very interesting and provoking thoughts.


While shopping for ski jackets for the boys, my wife had commented that society is very accepting for girl to wear boy clothes but not the other way around.

This is exactly what needs to change!

We can accomplish this by wearing women's items while presenting as a feminine man. When women add masculine items to their look they are not attempting to appear as a man! Therefore to push the envelope like women started doing years ago, we must present as men incorporating feminine items into our look. Completely dressing as a woman will never accomplish this goal.

Mimi and I were discussing this very thing the other day when strolling through Macy's. We were standing at the boundary of the Men's and Women's department and were rather struck by the difference perceived by simply turning one's head even if you didn't focus on the clothes. On one side was a kalidoscope of color, on the other side a drab combination of blacks, browns, dark blues and dark greens. "Drab" is a perfectly descriptive word, isn't it?

You hit the painted nail right on the head! This is the problem that I have with male clothing and shoes! It is all designed to be utilitarian, drab, and colorless. This change in men's clothing occurred during the industrial revolution during an attempt to make all men look like, like a cog in the wheel with no single person standing out. Look at a typical business meeting with everyone dressed in suits and ties. All of the men look the same and there is no variance or self expression. When a man gets married, he gets all dressed-up to look exactly like the waiter than is serving him his food and drink. It is really sad. During George Washington's day, men had a look that was expressive and not boring. How long will men embrace this utilitarian and boring look?

Hello, UNDERDRESSER. I never present female or have breasts when I go out crossdressed. Normally, when I go out, I dress in a skirt and a blouse with pantyhose and feminine shoes. I dress my age and I have been told that I dress like a Librarian. When I go out, I try to go out during school hours. I don't want to influence children

To me this implies that you are ashamed of your look. Have you noticed that goths, folks with tattoos and multiple piercings all over their bodies don't hide from school children. Hiding indicates that you are ashamed of your look and feel that you are doing something wrong. It is important to be comfortable with yourself and it should not be our concern to dress in a stereotypically male fashion for children. Children need to be exposed to other presentation so that they can see that it is ok to be yourself and express who you really are.

Wow, interesting responses! I thought there would be much more acceptance from a group that is so little accepted in the larger culture.

Underdresser, I understand your position completely. I am a 61 yo male with a mustache and small goatee, hair in dreadlocks. I wear women's clothing every day, both at home and in public, to some degree or another, panties, camisoles, skirts, women's tank tops, leggings, tunics, and scarves. I do this because it reflects my feminine side and with that expression I feel more complete, balanced. But I am inescapably a man and have a masculine side that I am neither ashamed of or try to hide. When in public I receive compliments, mostly from women, but sometimes from men. I also attract attention from those who are obviously upset with my choice of apparel. What they think of me is not my problem, for I am not confused, nor am I some sociopath flaunting my dysfunction. Please continue to express your gender as YOU see fit. You owe it to yourself and all the other people of similar ilk trying to make sense of who they are and how best to express that self. The is another fellow here who is doing a courageous job of his gender expression, JiveTurkeyOnRye. Look him up, check out his blog.

AMEN! Thanks for this response. Perfectly stated and excellent advice!!

I want to thank you for your post. It has brought about a great deal of discussion and provided points of view from a variety of perspectives. In my humble and inexperienced opinion, if we are going to wear high heels, then we should go the whole gammit in dressing as a female and strive to pass.

I disagree with this opinion. Consider the situation of a woman wearing masculine hiking boots. Should she also apply a fake mustache and beard and attempt to pass as a man? This is no different then men wearing high-heels. Please see http://www.hhplace.org for an example of men that wear all types of high-heels as men.

[Jamie001]

I must say I shared (put didn't post) some of monctongirl's reaction, because in-your-face presentation is often perceived as a hostile act. It can be interpreted as: "Look at me. I don't care what you think because you're insignificant." Underdresser could have clarified things by explaining WHY he wanted to appear in public that way. Is it to expand the options of male attire, as some have suggested, or another reason? As someone who also affects an androgynous style, I am not unsympathetic.

Incorporation of feminine items into an otherwise male presentation is not an "in your face presentation". It is a presentation that is identical to when a woman incorporates masculine items into her look. I don't dress to impress other people. If other folks are shallow enough to interpret this as a hostile act, then F*** them! It is not my problem. We need to move toward a society when men can incorporate items from women's fashion just as women incorporate items from male fashion. Only then will we achieve true equality. It is the year 2012 not 1950.