Yep, I share both your point of view and "the look I have in my head". I think women should/could easily find the guy in the link above sexy, confident, articulate and "Manly". A skirt, beard, thick tights, boots & a well fitted shirt; this is comfortable, acceptable and no big deal on Queen St. W.Originally Posted by UNDERDRESSER
I guess if I lived in Toronto I would have to get a loft in the fashion district.
Mimi and I were discussing this very thing the other day when strolling through Macy's. We were standing at the boundary of the Men's and Women's department and were rather struck by the difference perceived by simply turning one's head even if you didn't focus on the clothes. On one side was a kalidoscope of color, on the other side a drab combination of blacks, browns, dark blues and dark greens. "Drab" is a perfectly descriptive word, isn't it?
Mimi had the idea that this might stem from the romanticized cowboy era of the 1880s to the 1950s. Good Men were supposed to be rugged and utilitarian, and expressions of style or beauty were definitely considered to be effete. The exception to this were the singing cowboys of the B movie era, but everybody else toed the drab line lest they be considered "sissies."
A film clip to illustrate the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OaA3LZHbQs
Eryn
"These girls have the most beautiful dresses. And so do I! How about that!" [Kaylee, in Firefly] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"What do you care what other people think?" [Arlene Feynman, to her husband Richard]
"She's taller than all the women in my family, combined!" [Howard, in The Big Bang Theory]
"Tall, tall girl. The woman could hunt geese with a rake!" [Mary Cooper, in The Big Bang Theory]
I always shoot for passing and go the whole 9 yards to hide every last trait that I'm male. But, your experiment sounds interesting. Please share your experiences after you go out in your kilt.
Hello, UNDERDRESSER. I never present female or have breasts when I go out crossdressed. Normally, when I go out, I dress in a skirt and a blouse with pantyhose and feminine shoes. I dress my age and I have been told that I dress like a Librarian. People react to me about like you would react if you saw a Goth, or a person in a wheel chair, or a guy in a skirt. People look, but then go on about their business. When I go out, I try to go out during school hours. I don't want to influence children and I don't want to have my picture immediately posted on some teenager's facebook page. I have had rather good experiences in public. I have posted about most of my outings on this forum. I think a lot of crossdressers want to be a woman when they dress. However, some of us just want to wear the clothes. skirtcafe.org is a site for guys who wear skirts, but who do not want to associate themselves with crossdressers. I tried to post two times on that forum and the moderators struck down my posts saying that they don't want people claiming to be crossdressers and they didn't want me to start my post saying that I started wearing a skirt because I liked wearing pantyhose. So, clearly I am not welcome there. Sometimes I get the feeling that I am not entirely welcome here since I don't want to BE a woman. But, if I can shop at the Home Depot in a skirt and black pantyhose, I can handle feeling out of place in a forum full of guys in skirts and pantyhose!!
Wow, interesting responses! I thought there would be much more acceptance from a group that is so little accepted in the larger culture.
Underdresser, I understand your position completely. I am a 61 yo male with a mustache and small goatee, hair in dreadlocks. I wear women's clothing every day, both at home and in public, to some degree or another, panties, camisoles, skirts, women's tank tops, leggings, tunics, and scarves. I do this because it reflects my feminine side and with that expression I feel more complete, balanced. But I am inescapably a man and have a masculine side that I am neither ashamed of or try to hide. When in public I receive compliments, mostly from women, but sometimes from men. I also attract attention from those who are obviously upset with my choice of apparel. What they think of me is not my problem, for I am not confused, nor am I some sociopath flaunting my dysfunction. Please continue to express your gender as YOU see fit. You owe it to yourself and all the other people of similar ilk trying to make sense of who they are and how best to express that self. The is another fellow here who is doing a courageous job of his gender expression, JiveTurkeyOnRye. Look him up, check out his blog.
The simple REALITY is NO ONE here is a MIND READER. Assuming you "passed" because no one said anything is simply delusional. Nothing wrong with doing your very best to pass or blend in. It's a noble and admirable goal and by looking at many pics here, I would think many here would never get a second glance from Joe Doe public... but... Do people here really think that EVERY person in public who figures it out is going to approach and ask if you are a man in women's clothes? Or want to know why you are wearing women's clothes? They DO NOT CARE. Why should they? Just wear what you want. I think once a person stops worrying about passing, CDing will become a lot more FUN or enjoyable as many can attest to
People do want it to be FUN don't they?
I want to thank you for your post. It has brought about a great deal of discussion and provided points of view from a variety of perspectives. I replied earlier, but I see my reply did not show up, so I thought I'd reply again. You have brought about a discussion that many of us CD'rs are relating to. I am one of them, quite frankly. I do not want to be a woman. but I do enjoy wearing feminine clothes.
The points of view expressed from the forum actually made me look at things a bit differently, and thus may have been of assistance to you. This is what I love about this forum! Everyone is free to express their thoughts.
What I gained from your post and the subsequent comments was that if I want to wear a bra, blouse, dress, stockings, and high heels then I should set my sights on trying to pass as a woman, and should also wear makeup and a wig to achieve this. This makes sense to me, as if we men are going to enter the women's world to this degree, then we should do it with as best an effort as we can.
If we are going to merely want to don a skirt in public, (which is something I have been wanting to do for a long time - but have not had the courage to do so), then I don't see anything wrong with this. It is only a skirt, which has been presented as a new fashion for years, but has never really taken off. Reine, and your posted links were great examples of this and Reine's gave different persepectives as well with the variety of ways in which men might wear a skirt. For me, a business suit top, skirt and heels did not do it for me (as a man). In my humble and inexperienced opinion, if we are going to wear high heels, then we should go the whole gammit in dressing as a female and strive to pass.
Rather, a nice shirt, skirt and sandles, or hiking boots were acceptable and may very well be a good step toward us gaining our freedom and acceptance as CD'rs in society. I liked the look. In fact, just a few minutes ago, I took my first step and walked across our yard in broad daylight, and went to the mailbox, wearing a polo shirt and a skirt. I do not know if the neighbors saw me, (hope they did not), but I loved the freedom of doing this, which is what you are saying, and I am grateful for the inspiration you gave to me to do this. You got me over the line, and I am now going to build upon this and do what you are saying you are going to do, and try to go out in public in a skirt, dressed, however 'en masculine'
Also, if you did not see it, in a post a few days ago, Vanessa went through a drive-in dressed 'en femme', for the first time.
Thanks for your post and I wish you good luck in your endeavors. I would love to hear how you progress and hope you post again.
All the best,
Di
Last edited by Diversity; 12-02-2012 at 08:54 PM. Reason: spelling error
Incorporation of feminine items into an otherwise male presentation is not an "in your face presentation". It is a presentation that is identical to when a woman incorporates masculine items into her look. I don't dress to impress other people. If other folks are shallow enough to interpret this as a hostile act, then F*** them! It is not my problem. We need to move toward a society when men can incorporate items from women's fashion just as women incorporate items from male fashion. Only then will we achieve true equality. It is the year 2012 not 1950.
You will become stronger in the ways of the Pink Fog. May the Pink Fog guide you and be with you now and forever.
When I got married in the mid 50's my dear wife took over making me passable, and did so very well. She passed away 7 years ago, and I decided than that I was going to quit trying to pass but! But I still wanted to dress enfemme, so I do! I wear skirts and tops, and even an occasional dress, out in public all the time. But I am still definitely a man under the satin and lace. And the amazing thing is that never once has anyone made a rude comment to me!! I have had women, and sometimes even a man, ask me where I bought a certain skirt or top. And I tell them! I am a crossdresser, and I really don't care who knows it. I'm to old for that!!
And BTW, most people don't pay any attention to what you are wearing unless you delibrately make yourself noticable!! I don't do that! I just wear a plain knee length skirt and usually a simple top which may have long sleeves. And my skirts are usually black, brown, or denim!! I do have some satin skirts, but I don't wear those in public!
Good Luck to you!!
Stephanie
Lady on the outside, but man underneath!
This is exactly what needs to change!
We can accomplish this by wearing women's items while presenting as a feminine man. When women add masculine items to their look they are not attempting to appear as a man! Therefore to push the envelope like women started doing years ago, we must present as men incorporating feminine items into our look. Completely dressing as a woman will never accomplish this goal.
You hit the painted nail right on the head! This is the problem that I have with male clothing and shoes! It is all designed to be utilitarian, drab, and colorless. This change in men's clothing occurred during the industrial revolution during an attempt to make all men look like, like a cog in the wheel with no single person standing out. Look at a typical business meeting with everyone dressed in suits and ties. All of the men look the same and there is no variance or self expression. When a man gets married, he gets all dressed-up to look exactly like the waiter than is serving him his food and drink. It is really sad. During George Washington's day, men had a look that was expressive and not boring. How long will men embrace this utilitarian and boring look?
To me this implies that you are ashamed of your look. Have you noticed that goths, folks with tattoos and multiple piercings all over their bodies don't hide from school children. Hiding indicates that you are ashamed of your look and feel that you are doing something wrong. It is important to be comfortable with yourself and it should not be our concern to dress in a stereotypically male fashion for children. Children need to be exposed to other presentation so that they can see that it is ok to be yourself and express who you really are.
AMEN! Thanks for this response. Perfectly stated and excellent advice!!
I disagree with this opinion. Consider the situation of a woman wearing masculine hiking boots. Should she also apply a fake mustache and beard and attempt to pass as a man? This is no different then men wearing high-heels. Please see http://www.hhplace.org for an example of men that wear all types of high-heels as men.
Last edited by Eryn; 12-02-2012 at 10:42 PM. Reason: Merged five consecutive posts. Please use the multiquote button if you wish to respond to several posts.
In my personal life I tend to be lazy, so the act of dressing without the wig and makeup appealed to me. Then I actually went out a couple of different times. While I didn't get any negative feedback I didn't feel right. If anything it was the most nervous I've ever been while crossdressed. I gave it a shot, but it wasn't for me. I'm glad I tried it, though. I learned a little bit about what I can handle. It gave me some comfort the next time I went out dressed the whole nine yards.
This evening my wife, son and I went to a concert. I was wearing a nice dress, hose and heels, makeup and my hair (some natural some added) was up in a french bun. It was a rather formal concert. Yesterday I ran out to Subway to pick up lunch. I was not going to get all dressed up and put on makeup just to go 1/2 mile to pick up some sandwiches. I was wearing a longsleeve, v-neck tshirt, women's jeans, ballet type shoes with a 1" wedge heel, as well as my breast forms. Last night I was at work, presenting in total guy mode (although I was still wearing women's jeans). In all of these situations no one seemed to care how I was presenting.
I identify as dual-gendered, somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, both feminine and masculine. The way that I was dressed when I went to Subway best represents how I identify, and how I feel most of the time. When I dress like this, I am not trying to make a statement. I'm simply trying to be comfortable, to be in balance, to have how I appear as on the outside congruent with how I feel on the inside.
Very few of us, when it comes right down to it, pass. When we are out dressed, expressing our femininity, and someone makes a snide remark we are insulted. That person, we say, is ignorant or has a problem. We call narrow minded, even bigoted. I fail to see how that person is any different than someone here insulting me by making snide comments about how I express myself. We all live in the same glass house. Please don't throw stones.
Grace,
Bobbi
"Talking is sharing. Listening is caring."
Thank you, Jamie001!
We each make our own choices. We already face enough restrictions from the muggles. No need to try to place restrictions on others and try to dictate what's right for anyone else. Some of us want to express ourselves by looking as feminine and/or as female as we can. Others want to incorporate some so-called women's stuff into their regular male wardrobe. Some want to do both at different times. It's about freedom of expression. It's all good.
Good for you, too, Bobbi!
I think this kind of thing is more likely to win acceptance.
Yes, it's not unlikely that most of us "pass" less than we think we do. I've said it before, most people either don't notice because they've got their own concerns and distractions or they don't care much one way or the other. A few people notice and support us and a few notice and don't support us. In any case, I don't worry too much about getting bogged down over "passing" or not. All I really care about is not sticking out and being harassed (or worse).
Last edited by justmetoo; 12-02-2012 at 09:58 PM.
Honestly, I don't think that anyone here doesn't accept the various forms of presentation. We're all friends and no one here is telling anyone how they should or should not dress. But we're talking about what the people outside this community will and will not accept, what is considered the norm, how far can it be stretched, and will this affect the way that others treat a male who does not present in a conventional manner. These are things that do matter to a lot of people here, in my opinion.
Some people can go blindly through life and present outside the gender norms, and not care what others think. All the power to them, and I agree that few strangers will say anything out loud. But, if he goes on a job interview wearing obvious women's things, I don't think he'll get the job. And it is likely that the cute waitress he's had an eye on for some months won't go out with him. And probably his neighbors won't invite him to their backyard BBQ. I guess it all depends on an individual's social needs, i.e. does he want to form close bonds with people and hang out, or run for councilman, or join the local charity's board, or get dates, etc. If a person is a loner, then all is well and he can wear what he wants to. And I guess if he has known the same group of people all his life and he doesn't plan on expanding his social sphere, should he suddenly begin to wear painted nails, scarves, and bras, I don't think his circle of acquaintances will drop him completely either, although he may notice that the social invitations will diminish somewhat.
I'm saying this in a very general sense, since there are just too many variables about how people look, what they wear (is is a very frllly woman's top, or is it a polo top that looks androgynous), how open is the milieu in which they live, their ages, etc, to come up with one rule that fits all ... but generally, men who walk around wearing nail polish, feminine tops, hose, and heels, etc, are looked upon as being odd and will have more doors closed to them then men who do not wear these things in guy mode, even if SAs and neighbors don't say anything out loud.
I think it is important for everyone here to be aware of this.
Reine
I go out wearing skirts looking like a man all the time. I don't pass can't pass and get more reaction when I try to pass. If I am a guy wearing a skirt I get little to no reaction. I also have a kilt I wear often and have only gotten positive reaction while wearing it. It is in my opion if you are trying to fool poeple they are more likely to feel offended if they figure it out then if you simply do some thing they don't expect.
Reine,
You really paint a very negative picture and it's not reality for everyone! Your response will cause folks that are teetering on the edge of embracing self expression to strongly consider reentering the safety of the closet. If our gay brothers and sisters took this approach, they wouldn't have achieved success that they achieved over the past 10 years. It is important for folks to get out there and show everyone that even though we dress differently, we are just like everyone else. Consider folks that you see everyday with multiple piercings, multiple tattoos, or ear lobes stretched to their shoulders by gigantic earrings. These folks are out there interacting with the general public and not cowering in the closet. We are not nearly as extreme as these folks.
Can you please try to be a little more positive and encouraging regarding intermixed gender expression?
Last edited by Jamie001; 12-03-2012 at 12:46 AM.
I can only paint the picture that I see in my daily life, given where I live and the people that I know and also all the other places I've lived in. Like it or not, our society does not accept men who feminize themselves all that well. This is the biggest gripe of most of the members who post in this forum, so I don't think I am saying anything new.
Still, the picture of a feminized man that I have in mind, and how you might actually present may be two completely different things and so it is difficult to be very precise with something like this. So I did say that situations will differ depending on many factors which are too numerous to quantify in just one post, if you will read the last paragraph of my last post.
Reine
Well said, Rebecca...the devil has another advocate today.......
Reine....as usual you are "spot on", (and diplomatic as always) as the Brits would say but I fear you are fighting a losing battle with Jamie.....
Last edited by donnatracey; 12-03-2012 at 01:38 AM. Reason: addition
Looks like we're back to that "Passing vs Confidence" issue again?
If u can pass consistently, u have CONFIDENCE knowing folks see as the woman u wish to present.
If u don't pass but enjoy going out dressed anyway, u may have the confidence not to give a dam. But, you're NOT being taken as a woman by most folks!
These r NOT the same or the same kinds of confidence! It's just NOT the same feeling! As I recently found out this Halloween, when I was mistaken for a woman for the very first time!
I think anyone should be able to go out dressed however they like permitted by the law. Many of us wish to be perceived as women. Obviously, many also either can't or don't wish that. And, to those I say, all the best!
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
This too, but aren't we talking about men who do not attempt to present as women, who do present as men but who wish to present in a manner that will potentially cause others to stare (painted fingernails, feminine high heels, short shorts, feminine tops, etc), not much different than an CDer who goes out with no forms and a beard?
Darn, this stuff is just so hard to talk about without having PICTURES. There could be hundreds of different looks that would fit the above description, some of them way out there, and others, not so flagrant and fairly under the radar. When describing subtleties in presentation, words definitely are not enough, since everyone can have a completely different look in mind.
I agree though, that everyone has the right to present in whatever manner is comfortable for them, while at the same time acknowledging the impact if any, and being OK with it when there is an impact. If we lived in a society where there wasn't so much anxiety over people who cross the gender boundaries, none of this would matter.
Reine
Hi,
Doc.
Im the one who is different, when you add up what i am then you can understand a little about how i think am seen what makes me tick where im comeing from some of my history, that makes me who i am,
i understand about dressing i understand trans people yet dont incoroarte that in to my life, i think very differently because of how im wired, ... okay.
Womens clothes are what i wear though i make many for myself to wear of cause, i dont dress to impress very few would see my difference in facial fetures, being very male so clothes dont change any thing for me, as to makeup. id be wasteing my time with that it does nothing for me. so i dont wear it,
I know most here would wear make up most i would think need that to pass, or be seen how you are try to acheve your look. most of you are men. not a issue, in fact many would out rank me in the looks dept, hands down with out trying .
So as many of you come here as men the difference is for myself i dont. im just one of those who comes as a female, who's grown as a woman yet will never be seen as a woman , an issue that comes with being interesex yet i know of others who you'd say she's a woman because she looks like a woman . = female yet is very male in side,
We dont all come with what we needed yes well im one of them. im the oppisete to my friend yet i look more female than she does, she has her womb i dont, & theres a few other details . i may not look as female as many of my women friends even with my incompleatness im still a woman = female, to use your dont pass the post like others here,
Should i stop being who i am because of my lack dont look right, havent got what it takes to be seen as i should, or do i just carry on being who i am. its easy for the one with the gun who holds that gun can spare my life or kill me,
Am i to be killed because im not quite all there, or can i have life & be different, you chose i dont have that gun .
For now i have a lovely beautyfull life im accepted not for what im not im accepted because im loved im just who i am, not trying to be other than myself im an incompleat female yet i have grown to be a woman who's a member of our community,
So maybe some of us dont have the look or are all there, what is needed with out any put down is a pure honist acceptance that shows we allare worth the time to be just who we are, regardless of how we look or dont.
...noeleena...
Doing "it" is referred to in the Fetlife world as "Genderf--king". If that is your thing,go for it! It doesn't do anything positive for those who try to present well and blend in,but that doesn't matter. Many of us are more than glad to watch from "AFAR" how people react to your outfit. Perhaps it is a great test of how thick you think your skin is or the shock value of doing so,or a test of how gracious the public is for not pointing and jeering. I have no problem with bearded ladies in dresses or goateed guys in skirts,enjoy your kink all you want as I won't be anywhere near you!! lol Most people will never understand GFing unless you tell everyone you encounter the "special " reason you are doing it. It is the opposite of blending.
It SURE is my hair ! I have the receipt and the box it came in !
Underdresser; I don't even try to look fem and dont go out very often but in the heat of this last summer I went out several times in a skirt with a man's top and carrying my purse. Other than a few odd stares and glances, I got no bad reactions at all. In fact, I got a good laugh at a yard sale when the chait I sat in flipped over backwards an I flashed my panties....lol.
Monctongirl; This is a load of BS. The only statement I want to make is that I like wearing skirts.
2. I have anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment and am deliberately seeking to bother people with my presence and seeking negative reactions and you can expect confrontation from me because i am insane and don't know it...best to avoid me like a plague
Here is a picture of how I went out just today obviously a man but also obviously I am wearing a skirt and high heals. I live in a very redneck area and have not been accosted in any way.
It is up to us to create a society that doesn't have anxiety over people who cross gender boundaries by getting out there and wearing what we want to wear. That is how women gained the acceptance to wear masculine clothing and accessories. They just started doing it years ago. I believe that the best way to accomplish this is to wear feminine items in male mode. Start slowly by wearing items such as women's shoes, nail polish, capri pants, etc in male mode. This form of presentation is analogous to women wearing rugged hiking/combat boots, flannel shirts, and other male items that women wear everyday. The only way to achieve acceptance is by pushing the envelope.
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