That is a really great look.Originally Posted by wbdavid
That is a really great look.
You will become stronger in the ways of the Pink Fog. May the Pink Fog guide you and be with you now and forever.
thank you Jamie.
I generally try to blend when I go out en femme. Sometimes I do not want to be a girl when out but I seem to be a little girly anyway. Today I had some errands to run so I went out with no makeup, wig or forms. I had on a mans t shirt - no bra, and girls jeans and tennis shoes. My face is naturally a little fem with thin eyebrows and features I was born with, and I do tend to walk and have mannerisms somewhat like a girl. So I was at Walgreens and the SA of the beauty department asked to help me and checked me out. She was very nice to me but I am sure she was wondering as I was in ladies jeans, buying ladies glasses and makeup. She called me sweety and was very nice to me. I didn't try to present as a woman but didn't seem very manley either, leaving somewhat of a doubt. Most of the time when in drab I look like a guy, but I hate looking like a guy sometimes.
Last edited by Angela Campbell; 12-03-2012 at 10:42 AM.
All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?
Here are a few typical photos of everyday wear.
OK, I understand what you're getting at now, I see why you feel this is important.
But sadly, I think that you are chasing a dream, simply because of the question of numbers. Even though not all women started out incorporating pants in their daily fashion, there were a potential 100% women who would follow suite (which did end up being 100%), whereas there is less than 5% of the male population that wants to feminize their looks in the ways that you propose. So even if ALL the CDers in the world were to feminize themselves publicly, there would not be enough to change society's views on this, in my opinion. People would still be anxious over the few men who wish to cross the gender boundary.
Also, pants for women were not an attempt to cross any gender boundary, so doing so did not cause the same level of social anxiety. Women were motivated by a right to live to their full human potential, a desire to move out from under the dominion of men, equal privilege under the law, and equal pay on the job, which are human rights issues and not a gender statement. Wearing pants was not an attempt at looking masculine ... in fact, women's pants followed the shape of their curves in the hips and waist and the fashion industry modified the pants to look feminine, to differentiate them from men's pants.
Unfortunately, there is no way that the look that you propose (the feminization of men) is something that the 95% of non-CDers will want nor will they ever adopt this, since they are happy being masculine men. If all the CDers in the world were to come out in droves and declare their right to express femininity, their 5% numbers would still not be great enough to make it seem mainstream and to change society's views that it is not OK for men to cross the gender boundaries and feminize themselves.
Earlier I showed pics of styles that might work if you want to see a universal adoption of men wearing skirts, that does what women did (differentiate the styles to suit the gender), but you objected to this. So I'm afraid that what you are after (men wearing frilly and pretty things) will just never fly in the numbers required to make a difference since there simply are not enough men in our society who will go for it.
Last edited by ReineD; 12-03-2012 at 01:43 PM.
Reine
Those insulted by some of Mocton girl's comments and would like her to be censored, or worse, are the most offensive in this post. i think they are way off-base as cross-dressers, who do not want to be insulted themselves when outing as a female. The forum should be a place (and so far is. I think) where everyone can have their say without worrying about offending anyone. After all, if you're not afraid to show yourself en femme to the world, you should not be offended by a forum sister's comments.
As you can see, I am very insulted by any "removal" or "Im insulted" comments, but they should not be erased, so members can realize it takes all types toi make a crossdresser.
Could have said all that in fewer words, but my wrath runneth over
Reine,
I still believe that you are missing the point. I cited examples of other members of society that are on the fringe regarding self expression. Please consider folks that are in the extreme minority and are covered with tattoos, or have gigantic earrings that stretch their earlobes several inches, or multiple piercings. These folks are out and about in society even though I estimate their numbers are approximately 1 or 2 percent. They are accepted and tolerated by society. As feminine males, we are not nearly as "fringe" as these folks.
Also, you keep going back to the example of women wearing pants which is NOT a good analogy. Consider my examples of women wearing flannel shirts, masculine combat or hiking boots, men's watches, men's shirts, men's ties, and the list goes on and on. Your usual reply is "these items are available for women in the women's department of the store and therefore women wearing these items are not crossdressing". If you look in the women's shoe department, you can find Oxford Shoes that are exactly like the shoes that are sold in the men's shoe department. The same is true for many men's shoe styles that have been appropriated by designers of women's shoes. These shoes used to be considered very masculine and now they can be purchased in the women's shoe department. You are probably wondering where I'm going with this and if you think about it, it's really obvious:
The reason women have these masculine-style shoes and other masculine items that are sold in the women's department is because prior to these items being available, women purchased the items in the men's department. They wanted to add these masculine items to their wardrobes and just went ahead and purchased them in the men's department. I know at lest two women that have went this route and both of them are married and neither of them are lesbians. They just liked the look and comfort of some men's shoe styles and decided to wear them.
If more men were to start wearing women's shoes and other items in public, then eventually the identical items would be marketed to men in the same manner that traditional men's shoe styles wound-up in the women's shoe department. I have my doubts if this will ever happen because most men have been conditioned since early childhood that anything feminine is evil and to be avoided.
I also believe that folks that incorporate feminine items without attempting to pass and deceive folks that they are a woman are more readily accepted because there is no deception. Just like when a woman wears masculine shoes and a flannel shirt. She usually doesn't apply a fake beard to appear as a man. Everyone knows that she is a woman. On the other hand, when a crossdresser that is attempting to pass is clocked, folk may react negatively because they feel deceived. I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, but I believe that it's reality.
I hope that you can understand where I'm coming from. I have been on the internet for 20 years and have been advocating "Fashion Freedom For Men". Fashion freedom for men implies that men should not be relegated to drab, masculine, and utilitarian forms of expression. Women are permitted a lot more latitude in their expression by incorporating masculine items. If you don't believe this, I can google up a lot of information to support this position from articles in Cosmo and other women's magazines. Men need to be afforded the same latitude regarding the incorporation of masculine and feminine items in their presentation. In fact, I would like to see the concept of masculine and feminine abolished regarding the clothing, shoes, etc, but that is expecting too much.
Last edited by Jamie001; 12-03-2012 at 02:18 PM.
Well, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and allow the membership to read both our points of view and make up their minds as to what they believe might work and not work.
Reine
Yes, I think that we should agree to disagree. I am beginning to wonder if feminine males like myself really belong here on crossdressers.com. I realize that feminine males are a very small minority here because the majority of the members prefer to attempt to pass rather than to appear as a man wearing women's clothing/accessories. Also, even though I have tried for many years however, I will never be able to understand or relate to the almost bipolar nature of many crossdressers that have a 100 percent male mode and also a 100 percent female mode. It just doesn't make sense to me because I am both feminine and masculine at the same time and cannot suppress either. It's just who I am.Well, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and allow the membership to read both our points of view and make up their minds as to what they believe might work and not work.
I wonder if it makes sense for another forum to be created here for "Feminine Males" so that we will not be constantly ridiculed by the majority for our lack of desire to pass.
For the record i do not believe mocton's post should be censored.
Here's a thought to further muddy the water. How many here who are not trying to PASS AS A FEMALE bother with wearing forms, any type of bra or any type of padding?
I wonder .... How are the fashion police trained to deal with something like that? Where IS that darn RULEBOOK? My guess is that it is OK to go w/o a bra or forms IF one is wearing a shirt sold in the MEN'S department?
I can only guess there are several chapters devoted to the proper, appropriate use of various padding?
Last edited by Wildaboutheels; 12-03-2012 at 07:35 PM. Reason: spelling
Regardless of what anyone has said, I see there are several points within this thread. The first and to my mind formost is freedom of expression and freedom of speech/opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, opinions are neither right or wrong, they just someones opinion. Freedom of expression is a different matter, and unfortunately opinions of what is in good or bad taste then enters the picture. ReineD said something of great value, that without a good photo it is hard to get a good idea of what some folks are talking about. ReineD did give us some photos to look at and helped formulate what she thought was good vs tasteless. I appreciate what you did. Having said that, one of the best photos of what I am thinking about would be this.
http://www.forestcityfashionista.com...reet-west.html
Now thinking about this photo I would add a nice cami/undershirt, lacey only if hidden. Leggings whether opague, or run of the mill pantyhose is an individual choice. Soxes optional, that having more to do with the type of leggings used, and just a good pair of sneakers, or walking shoes.
Whether someone thinks that this is stylish, or tacky is a matter of opinion. I have seen more of my share of fashion statements in my life, and they go from one extreme to the other. People should have the freedom to look the they wish, I don't care for the Goth style, but I will respect their freedom to dress as they wish. For those who have the talent, ability to dress and pass, then all the power to you, go for it and enjoy yourself. Please don't see me as being a lesser CD'er if I don't attempt to pass, in my opinion you would be no better than someone who sees all CD'ers as being lesser because we don't dress like them, AKA drab male clothing.
Some one said that the link did not work. It is the same one that is also found in post #18 this same thread.
Last edited by Gillian Gigs; 12-03-2012 at 04:16 PM.
I like myself, regardless of the packaging that I may come in! It's what is on the inside of the package that counts!
Actually, you belong! This is the best part of the forum! All it proves is that there are many of us from all walk of life, many opnions, and many views on a given subject.
I do this almost every weekend.
@MonctonGirl: No, it's not a joke. Do I have an "anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment" - maybe. I've been out in drag, I passed as a girl, I've taken hormones, I've nearly had my family break apart because of this.
For illustrative purposes, let me exaggerate: I nearly became a girl just to be able to dress how I like.
If society wouldn't "forbid" crossdressing, men could choose to put on the heels in the morning if they would feel that they would like to wear them today. They would choose a skirt in summer or the knee-high boots in winter. There would be no discussion on this "unusual" clothing, but it would also no longer be as "interesting" for many crossdressers. It would just be a regular piece of clothing. Many wouldn't be filling endless discussion threads in online forums, they would just be out wearing what they like.
If deliberately not passing is something that people on this forum cannot understand or even consider anti-social, then I just hope you guys in drag meet someone with the same double-standards you have when you are out at night. So... let me get this straight: it is social to attach fake breasts, put on fake hair, put on makeup and wear a skirt in public, but it is anti-social to wear just the skirt? Oh my, brave new world we are living in.
Crossdressing per definition (Merriam-Webster's dictionary) is "the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex". The dictionary doesn't say anything about trying to pass.
If crossdressers - those who pass, those who don't, and those who don't want to - are not able to be nice to each other, how should society ever accept someone who crossdresses?
Going out in drag is also sort of a protection for some. You are not John anymore. With all that makeup, the wig, the fake breasts, maybe even the padded bum you become Jane. Jane passes so well that nobody will discover that John wears women's clothing.
I know that this an oversimplification, but it's somewhat easier to hide behind a very well prepared costume than to stand by what you really like: Women's clothes.
Before I am posting a whole book here, let me rather say a couple of words to underdresser, who started this thread.
@Underdresser: You can go out dressed in full male clothes, but still crossdress. How is that possible? Buy a kilt from Givenchy (for men), high heels from Rick Owens (for men) or a dress from Sosnosvka (for men!) - these are all items designed for men, NOT for women. But they all are seen by today's society as women's items.
I've all these items here, and they cost between 4 to 10 times more than comparable women's items, just because they are designer pieces. And guess what? The reactions on the street are the same.
- Some swear at me (that hasn't happened for quite a while now)
- Some express that they don't like my clothing ("how far have we come?!" said one women to me)
- Some stare, don't say anything.
- Some shrug their shoulders and say "whatever floats your boat" (I get this quite often)
- Some say "cool, I would like to have the guts to wear this"
- Some ask me where they can buy something like that
I've been buying designer clothes and mixed them with traditional women's clothing and men's clothing.
Example 1: Knee-high boots from Marc Jacobs with no heel, woolen tights, a Burberry kilt, a black turtle-neck sweater and a woolen jacket -- half men, half women's items.
Example 2: Jil Sander high heeled wedge boots, skinny jeans, sweater, jacket. Apart from the boots, all men's items.
Example 3: Rick Owens high heeled boots (similar to those), regular jeans, black shirt, black Gareth Pugh coat - looks a little like I am from the Matrix movie. Makes fun :-)
Example 4: Dark brown Michael Kors heels, sand-colored suede pants, teal-colored heavy knit sweater, coffee-brown colored Peuterey down-coat. All women's clothing.
If you are matching things nicely, it may look feminine, but everyone will see that the outfit you are wearing was combined by someone with taste. So... go ahead and give it a try. You are not hurting anyone, and you are definitely not anti-social.
"I will always PASS regardless of how I look as I live for my happiness"
I'm glad there are people like you here. People who think outside the binary boxes. It's good to get some perspectives that don't fit the "norm" here. Maybe it will make a few more people think, too. I like to hear various viewpoints on all the stuff we talk about, from 'traditional" crossdressers, from SO's and GG's, from crossdressers and others who don't follow the "rules", from transgendered folks, etc. As long as people remain civil and respect each other and don't try to dictate what others should do or how they should feel it's all good.
I have read all the posts here, and am happy that everyone with such diverse views are here. We wear women's clothes. How and why is entirely a personal choice. Everyone here can have their opinion on my personal choice, that is to be expected, and accepted. I cannot question the reasons or desires of what someone does that satisfies their internal needs. While I think some decisions can cause concern for the overall "advancement" of the cause, but that is of little importance. Advancing a cause by making even on person feel inferior makes the cause less interesting to me. I do not feel that manly dressing is a negative. It is simply not my choice. I hope all who do this can find enjoyment and inclusion.
Barbara
He (she) who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance.
- Friedrich Nietzche -
I may never get to fly like the other girls, but I do so want to dance, so I continue to climb.
I agree Barbara. I also champion everyone expressing who they are. But at the same time, if they live in pockets of the world that are more on the conservative side, they must not mistake "silence" for "acceptance". I'm speaking of people who present a blended gender in their day to day lives, and not the people who choose to dress fully in the next town over. Strangers are much more forgiving than employers, family, and other community members who are closer to home, since strangers are not affected by the stigma attached to having someone who is genderqueer in their lives (or transgender, or middlepather, or crossdresser, or whatever other term people want to use).
There are niches in our society though that do embrace non-binary, non-conventional gender: academia, LGBT counseling, hairdressing (I'm guessing), and other niches I'm sure (maybe working from home), and so there are places where people who are gender non-conforming can live well. But, I cannot see a gender non-conformist being hired as a primary school teacher for example, or a position that deals with the public such as a pharmacist in small town America, or work in a large corporate office, nor can I see them running for local government, being on Church boards, and being presidents of the local PTA. It just is what it is and everyone must make their choices.
Reine
Unless a" GFer" explains to everyone they encounter[why they are presenting as such],people in mainstream America just take a WTF? attitude.Around forward thinking people,there may be a live and let live attitude.Around others,a "GFer "gets written off as "weird dude".That isn't going to change easily or at all.
It SURE is my hair ! I have the receipt and the box it came in !
I'm another man who wears skirts, etc., and does not try to pass as a woman. I've never had any desire to be a woman (well, not beyond simple curiosity), and I don't feel particularly womanly or female no matter how I dress.
I have some kilts -- a scottish-style kilt, which I never wear because it's so uncomfortable, a Utilikilt, and a couple of home-made Utilikilt-style kilts. However, most of the time (except for work), I wear skirts or jumpers (UK: pinafore), and occasionally a dress, often with tights. I wear them to church, around town, on the train, on my bicycle, shopping, and of course to dances. I don't have any of those skirts marketed as "men's skirts," because I think they look hideous.
In the real world, I have never encountered anything negative aside from an occasional negative comment, but I receive a lot more positive comments (from both men and women) than negative. My friends and acquaintances are supportive -- one even expressed shock the one time I showed up in pants.
Some in this thread insist that men like me are simply tolerated, not accepted. That may or may not be true (at least of strangers), but at this point in my life, I don't care. I spent most of my life trying to change myself to meet other people's expectations, and it got me nowhere. However hard I tried to pass for "normal" (whatever that is), I was still ostracised as the "weirdo." I finally decided to spend my remaining years being and living the way I want to. The people who accepted me before still accept me, and I just write off the rest as a waste of my time. Plus, now that I wear skirts around town, I get the thrill of having women stick their head out the car window and shout "nice skirt!"
People here might or might not call my skirts, etc., "feminine." I don't think of them as "women's clothes", especially since virtually all of them are ones I've designed and sewn to fit my body and my style. I don't think of them as "feminine," either, I think of them as pretty or fun to wear. But they're definitely not the testosterone-drenched things that are marketed as "men's skirts."
The one place I get un-accepting and intolerant reactions is here at CD.com. I've been told I belong in a zoo, that I'm a traitor to TG folk, or that it's an expression of hostility. The anti-men-in-skirts comments in this thread are relativelty mild by comparison. Unlike Jamie001, I don't bother to feel insulted by it. Life's too short. But I have to admit, it does not make me feel that CD.com is a supportive place, the way so many posters write. The CD.com community seems to have an idea of what is and is not acceptable CD'ing, and is less tolerant of deviations from it than the real-life world I live in.
Even people here at CD.com (like ReineD) who aren't hostile to the idea of a man -- presenting as a man -- wearing "women's clothes" (and aren't such men themselves) don't seem to be able to wrap their minds around the idea of such a man not doing it to be "feminine," but just because he likes it. (No one has trouble understanding that some women like wearing skirts and some don't, but they can't apply the same principle to men.)
I've always felt that the things that society designates as "masculine" or "feminine" are pretty arbitrary, sort of like grammatical gender in German. The attitude here at CD.com, that there's some inherent connection between being male and those traits that are called "masculine" (and between being female and "feminine") strikes me as weird. It's as if Germans would insist that boys should like spoons and not forks and girls should like forks and not spoons, because the word Loeffel is masculine and Gabel is feminine.
BTW, when I speak of "the CD.com community", I'm not thinking of non-orthodox dressers like Jamie001 or UNDERDRESSER (or myself) We are here, but I definitely feel like we are outsiders and that most of the posters here think and act like we don't exist.
It isn't going to change if we don't get out there an cause the change. If we cower in our closets we will never make any progress. Women earned their fashion freedom years ago by getting out there and wearing what they want to wear. Many of them were ridiculed but they persisted. Our gay brothers and sisters fought the same battle and are still fighting that battle to obtain equal rights. Do we have the guts to fight that battle, or should we run back into the closet based upon an incorrect negative picture that is being painted by several folks here?
I agree completely. Either dress or not. Going out thinking your testing the waters in a kilt, really isnt testing the waters, and trying to "not pass" really comes across as a joke.
Perhaps, it would be beneficial for the rookies here to know WHERE to buy "The CDers Rulebook" AND the other one "How to Read the Minds of Joe Doe Public"? I've asked both here and at all the local branches of my library, and no one seems to know where to find these two masterpieces. One would think THIS Forum would be the place to ask...
Wouldn't they?
Maybe people have to hit 1000 posts to prove their sincerity first before they can be entrusted with such Top Secret information? That's gotta be it!
Trying to not pass is not a joke, it is our lifestyle! Just because it is your view doesn't make it reality. Gender is a spectrum and many of us are on different points on the gender spectrum. There are folks on this forum such as myself that are both feminine and masculine and we express both of those characteristics in our everyday presentation. Why can't folks here wrap their heads around this concept? As one member stated in this thread, Gender Queer folks that present as male and female simultaneously face more ridicule here on crossdressers.com than we do out in the real world! I can personally verify that fact. Why do we have such dissension and disrespect of differences within our own community?
It is not a joke it is not anti social. I am willing to bet I get more social interaction as a man wearing a skirt or a kilt,then you do fully dressed trying to pass. I have been approached by many popele while wearing a skirt and even been asked out by a few girls. Now I am not saying everyone finds it interesting or accepts it but far more will approach me then would if I am trying to be full girl as I don't pass and am clearly a guy trying to look like a woman. I infact feel more like a joke trying to pass then just wearing a skirt.
Plus what is the point in getting all dressed up and going out if you are to afraid to let poeple know it is you? Do you have a whole diffrent set of friends as your female self?
I would much rather go hang out with my friends and or family while wearing a skirt then go hide out some where trying to pass in a city 100 miles away.
IN addition I have to fully agree with the others who said they have recieved more negativity here on this forum then out in the real world. I will not put you down and say you are a joke for wanting to pass but for me it is not who I am or what I want to acheive, so for you to put us down and call us jokes for not wanting to is not cool.
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