The cross dressers fashion dilemma

[ReineD]

While many of us try to dress to blend in, there are just some things that will always betray us, such as facial features, a 5 o' clock shadow, our height, the size of our hands, the way we walk, stand or talk. Those will always give us away and ruin the illusion. In my thinking, once the illusion is blown, the clothes make no difference. And thinking about it, I also take exception to the word "tachy" and should not have used it in my reply. It is judgmental, demeaning and inappropriate.

Yes, I agree with you! For most CDers, it is difficult to pass completely under the radar, to everyone, all the time. My SO manages this pretty well to most people who are in the same room and who are not paying particular attention to us (over-the-top clothing would actually cause people to stare and read her more), but the game is up the minute that she starts to talk to someone at length. But (and this is important), a lot more people accept who she is once they talk to her and see how nice she is, than you might think. We are always treated with respect.

Anyway, the discussion as far as I took it, was not whether a CDer is read, but whether or not s/he presents in a tacky manner. If you do not like that word, you are free to substitute it with one of your own that means the same thing (over-the-top sexy clothing given age and body type). If my SO were to walk around in a "look at me, aren't I sexy" mode, I think that people would take it she does this for fetish rather than as an expression of who she feels she is. There's a big difference between the two.

But, this might just be my own take on it.

Edit As for the word "tacky" being judgmental, demeaning, and inappropriate, if I were to walk around dressed as if I was in my 20s and a size 4 (I am in my 50s and a size 8), and my best girlfriend were to say that my outfit looked tacky for my age, honestly I'd appreciate her input and I'd try to look at myself more objectively. Everyone makes fashion mistakes and it takes a good friend to say it like it is. If you had spinach stuck in your teeth, would you want your best friend to not say anything?

[IngeInCO]

I expected a lively debate and that's a good thing. To those who didn't understand the question, there is no prescribed mandate. No "handbook" being written. Rather, the question is about "if you care to blend in, in public what is best?"

I hope that the closeted cross dressers out there who are thinking about going out and have read this thread reach some perspective on the issue.

I think one should dress how they feel and makes them happy. There are those that can wear clothing that is of a younger style, good for you! However, in my opinion most look out of place. I worked in a "cool" industry for 20 years and it was odd to see a 50 year old man dressed as a skater, not that i don't like the skater look... but some don't fit. I do also notice women dressed "too young" for their age and I'm not a fan, even if they have the looks to carry it off. In the end there is no "Handbook" for gg's, gm's, cd's, ts's etc... We are all indivuduals.



My answer to you Jennifer is that I think if one is trying to blend in they should wear appropriate clothes. Boys or Girls. My wife and I are about the same age so it's easy for me. Now I do have "Inge Time" occasionally where I can experiment.

[LadyPilot]

Speaking strictly of CDers though, when they dress way younger or with shorter dresses, or body hugging clothes for their ages (or body types), they are noticed and stared at even more, just as are the GGs who do the same thing ... and not for good reasons.

I fully agree that the way you are dressed will depend on how people will look at you. I am quilty of pointing out the "wrongness" on how people dress just am I am sure many of us are. Therefore, it is safe to say people will point out the "wrongness" of the clothes I wear.

[kathrynt21]

I try to dress in a way that would be appropriate for someone my age. I want to be comfortable and pretty but also try to dress as I would if I could dress out and about all day. I like trying to present outwardly how I feel inwardly. And that is a 59 yo!

[Angela Campbell]

It is easy for me. I was married twice and bought all of my spouses clothes - they both hated shopping - and I am pretty good at getting appropriate clothes. If I go out I want to look like a LADY nice and well dressed in nice clothes that are similar to what other women are wearing in the same situation. Always nice and never sloppy looking and not intentionally sexy, but if I am sexy well that is ok too as long as it is not overdone. My hope is that when I get clocked they just think....that might be a man but I am not sure....rather than OMG look at that!

[Miriam-J]

I'm with the 'dress your age' crowd, and I definitely try to blend in so as not to attract attention. But I continue to try to figure out the interpretation.

I'm 52, which has me squarely in middle age, but I have smooth, taut skin for my age (no facial wrinkles) and have to wear a wig due to my near total lack of head hair. I wear a wig chosen to go well with my light brown eyebrows and eyelashes (no gray), and is shaped to complement my facial shape.

I don't try to look 20, but with my wig and smooth skin can easily pass for 35 to 40 - or so I'm told. So, again ... what does it mean to dress my age? Should I dress like 40, or 50? My personal tastes tend to be pretty conservative, which shifts it toward he old end, but my wife encourages me to dress more boldly, more toward the young end of my appearance. Still working this out within my financial and other constraints.

The same concern goes for makeup. Other than the foundation needed to cover my facial hair, I try to do matchup with what I see GGs around me doing. This doesn't seem to range as much in the age range of interest. I generally see makeup kept basic, with a barely noticeable lipstick, eye shadow in shades of brown, light layer of mascara (if any), and little or no liner for ladies from 40 to 60 or so. I think I can match up with this.

Miriam

[windycissy]

I've learned many things from Allie, and one of them is to let yourself go and enjoy life as a girl to the max. Two things make it possible for Allie to wear sexy, killer clothes and fit right in: she has an amazing physique, great legs and a knack for doing her makeup and wig to make herself look very youthful, and she lives in the San Francisco Bay Area, where anything goes. I'm much more reserved and like you, I try to blend in whenever possible, which includes dressing very conservatively but when I'm with Allie in San Francisco or Las Vegas, I let myself go!

[AllyCDTV]

Yes, I agree with you! For most CDers, it is difficult to pass completely under the radar, to everyone, all the time. My SO manages this pretty well to most people who are in the same room and who are not paying particular attention to us (over-the-top clothing would actually cause people to stare and read her more), but the game is up the minute that she starts to talk to someone at length. But (and this is important), a lot more people accept who she is once they talk to her and see how nice she is, than you might think. We are always treated with respect.

Anyway, the discussion as far as I took it, was not whether a CDer is read, but whether or not s/he presents in a tacky manner. If you do not like that word, you are free to substitute it with one of your own that means the same thing (over-the-top sexy clothing given age and body type). If my SO were to walk around in a "look at me, aren't I sexy" mode, I think that people would take it she does this for fetish rather than as an expression of who she feels she is. There's a big difference between the two.

But, this might just be my own take on it.

Edit As for the word "tacky" being judgmental, demeaning, and inappropriate, if I were to walk around dressed as if I was in my 20s and a size 4 (I am in my 50s and a size 8), and my best girlfriend were to say that my outfit looked tacky for my age, honestly I'd appreciate her input and I'd try to look at myself more objectively. Everyone makes fashion mistakes and it takes a good friend to say it like it is. If you had spinach stuck in your teeth, would you want your best friend to not say anything?

I think the key here is that there can be many goals for the way someone dresses. Gaining respect is one of them. Some may also want to dress to gain attention, even if that is negative attention. My attitude is, to each their own.

Words have power. I think the word "tacky" has some bad connotations associated with it and that there are better ways to express an idea than to use such an emotionally charged word. I would certainly appreciate someone pointing out that I had something stuck in my teeth. I would not appreciate it if all they said was that my mouth looked tacky, unless they were a close friend and said it with a smile.

Getting back to the original question about age appropriateness, there can be many "ages" we can have. The age in terms of years we have been alive, the age we think we can get away with the age that we feel we are, the age that we look like from 100 ft. away, the age that we look like from 3 feet away, the age we look like in soft light, the age we look like in bright sunlight . . Who is to say which age we should go by? It is not up to someone else to decide.

Now if fitting in is your goal, that depends on where you want to fit. If you are going shopping at the mall, that is one thing. If you are attending a drag queen convention, it will take a lot different set of clothes to fit in there.

[dee anne]

Graet debate
My opinion is this
at home if I want to be dareing, try anything, take a photo and look at it. Most times it is not something that I want to publish. However i like to dress and look like any other girl so if I am trying to go out i will dress less adventuressely( is that a word). draw the attentoin that you wish to.

Dee Anne

[Alice Torn]

Nothing much turns my head more, than a senior lady, still in great shape, in a dress, or skirt and heels, and silver or salt and pepper hair also turns my clock. I am 58, and seldom go out in the public eye, but i think i pull it off fairly well.

[MssHyde]

Jennifer
your right, as I see it blend in!

[NathalieX66]

I always dress appropriate for the occasion, and for my demographic:

If it's shopping at the mall or the grocery store, or saturday night at the movies ,it's usually jeans, and a woman's top and a scarf, boots or flats or sandals. I still feel like I'm on Team Woman

If it's meeting a friend at a restaurant, it's often a dress or skirt...same with footwear mentioned above.

If it's something big or glam or fun, it will be the LBD.....the little black dress or something sexy with heels.

I'm going to say something in defense of the first, that is dressing casually gives me unlimited freedom anywhere without being gawped at. I feel like I blend right in, and that is a very reassuring feeling. It may not be as much fun as wearing a sexy dress & heels, but I am out in the public eye, and to tell you the truth I prefer it way more than just wearing my guy clothes.

[drushin703]

When I first started buying my own clothes they all came from the Salvation Army thrift store. You can certainly find some nice, stylish items there but I
noticed that the cheeper, less expensive items were also the older, more out of date items. So when I first went out in public I was dressed like driving
Ms Daisy with long cinched waist patterned frocks, which although cute, were definately not age appropriate. You (me) have to see what other women
are wearing to fully understand our place in this fashion matrix.

Is there truly such a thing as age appropriateness? Why not just style appropriateness//Wow! this being a girl stuff has too many complicated
variables.

[Bree Wagner]

I always dress appropriate for the occasion, and for my demographic:

If it's shopping at the mall or the grocery store, or saturday night at the movies ,it's usually jeans, and a woman's top and a scarf, boots or flats or sandals. I still feel like I'm on Team Woman

If it's meeting a friend at a restaurant, it's often a dress or skirt...same with footwear mentioned above.

If it's something big or glam or fun, it will be the LBD.....the little black dress or something sexy with heels.

I'm going to say something in defense of the first, that is dressing casually gives me unlimited freedom anywhere without being gawped at. I feel like I blend right in, and that is a very reassuring feeling. It may not be as much fun as wearing a sexy dress & heels, but I am out in the public eye, and to tell you the truth I prefer it way more than just wearing my guy clothes.

I think you nailed it for me too Nathalie.

Also, your Team Woman line gave me quite a chuckle. Well done!

-Bree

[ReineD]

Now if fitting in is your goal, that depends on where you want to fit. If you are going shopping at the mall, that is one thing. If you are attending a drag queen convention, it will take a lot different set of clothes to fit in there.

Again, I agree. In fact, I've dressed on the tacky side when going to drag shows (see my post #42), but that was OK since anything goes in a nightclub. My earlier points referred to going to the mall, restaurants, or shows in the mainstream. People (men, women, and CDs) can dress how they please, but they will be judged (or noticed for the wrong reasons) if they dress in certain ways and this includes people who dress much younger than their age, or in a manner that is not suitable for their body weight, or in a manner that is more sexually suggestive than the venue calls for.

I spoke to my SO over dinner about my use of the word "tacky". I didn't think there was anything wrong with it, since as you say, I do feel as if I am among friends here. I did not accuse anyone on this board of being tacky. Anyway, my SO did agree that my manner of dress was tacky when I wore the ultra short form fitting dress, with thigh high stiletto boots. lol. I wasn't insulted by this.

[AllieSF]

To clarify a bit before I proceed. If someone's goal is to blend in, then obviously, dressing in bright pink at a Goethe gathering will not help much. Though, I have seen that before and loved the contrast, and also ended up dancing with that sweet 30 year younger out of place thing for half the evening. I was also wearing a shorter (probably shorter than the fashion police here would think "appropriate) pink patchwork suede skirt, tights and boots and showing the little cleavage that I could create. So, yes, whether it is age appropriate, venue appropriate, or as I like to put it, you look good and fit in appropriate, that is the way to go, IF you are trying to blend in. However, my comments to Jennifer's post in that other thread were not about those wanting to blend in, but rather a person's right to dress as they please when and where they please.

I have read comments by some here that say, if you can't dress to blend in then stay at home and don't embarrass us. That is where my hot button gets pushed really hard. Who are they to dictate their requirements on others? Who made them God for a day? I have even read here that if a CD doesn't come near to passing they should stay home too! So, going out in the real world should only be permitted to those that blend well and dress appropriately? I think not.

So what happens when our fashion and presentation experts say that someone should dress age, venue or whatever appropriate to those that dress the way they want when they go out? Someone has to set a standard and who is that? How short is too short for a skirt (there has even been a thread or two on that very topic here)? Is that with or without opaque tights, sheer nylons or bare legs? What is the venue? What is age appropriate, actual age, imagined age, approximate age based on whose criteria? Who sets those so called "rules"? I see all these limitations as as a form censorship by others wanting everyone else to dress like they do or as they think is best for them, society and our transgendered world. I reject those limitations, not because I want the right to dress badly, which I really try to avoid, but because I want the right for each individual to decide what is best for them, not for me nor anyone else. It always amazes me when here we are on this support site looking for tolerance and acceptance, as well as, the freedom to be ourselves as we see fit, and then some want to put limits on those freedoms because they do not fit someone's idea of what is proper for them, us and everyone else. I do not always like how some people dress and present themselves whether in their own home or out in public. Sometimes I just don't get it. If I do not like how someone dresses, I do not have to associate with them, or if I want to, I can limit my time with them to venue appropriate moments. However, I will never deny them the right to present themselves to others as they see fit, as long as they are not breaking some serious law. We are all adults here and are responsible for our own actions. So, the person that dresses inappropriately to whoever's standards should be ready to accept the consequences to their own actions and decisions.

I read here many times that some believe that what we do can negatively affect us transgenders (in the broad definition of that word). I understand what they are saying and I usually respond that it does not hurt us in the long run. Clarifying that some, is that whatever impact it may have on the limited few that may react negatively to seeing one of us, is so minuscule that it will not effect negatively the overall impact that happens when more of us are out on the real world actually interfacing with others. Blacks were shunned from television. Who were some of the first successful black television artists? Comedians making fun of life and themselves. Same goes for gays and some other minorities. The benefit is not from the humor per se, but more from the continued and increased exposure of that minority to the real world through media, movies and television. It worked and is still working for them, and it will work the same for us too. The more of us that are proudly out there then the better overall results we will have for our cause/movement and desires.

I do understand that we are sometimes, and that sometimes in my opinion is a lot less frequent than many here believe and thus profess to others, fighting an uphill battle against the truly negative people out there. From my personal experiences and the experiences of others here the truly negative people are so much in the minority. However, I also believe that most people are not naturally negative and put off by us. They are just surprised to actually run into one of us, and other than being something different to their own experiences, are not immediately shunned and deemed unacceptable human beings. For every negative anticipated reaction that some here are afraid of and state so vociferously, I read others' real experiences totally different and positive, mine included.

So in summary:

If you dress to blend, then by all means dress appropriately.

If you want to dress as you wish and go out, blending or not, then by all means please do so and enjoy and tell all the naysayers to pound sand.

[AllyCDTV]

my SO did agree that my manner of dress was tacky when I wore the ultra short form fitting dress, with thigh high stiletto boots. lol. I wasn't insulted by this.

Now I on the other hand, would have called that hot.

[ReineD]

Now I on the other hand, would have called that hot.

Hot yes, if I were 20! And I could get away with it (I suppose) in a dark night club with lots of makeup on. But under bright lights, for example stopping by the 24-hour grocery store on the way home for breakfast things? No. Tacky. My outfit did not go well at all with my not 20 year old face. lol

If one of my sons had seen me in that getup, I would have died!

[MonctonGirl]

I disagree very much. I don't dress to please others, I dress to please myself. I am 67 years old, have a beard, and go out in public in skirts every day.

This is a serious, sincere question - nothing more than that. I seek to understand your point of view:

Since you have a beard and are obviously not trying to "pass" as a female ...

1) Do you identify yourself as a "male to female crossdresser"?

I ask because it would seem more like you are a man who wears women's clothing.
That therefor confuses me in that my opinion of a "crossdresser" was one who attempts to pass.

That is, are do you refer to yourself as "en femme" when you go out , despite no intention to pass?

Perhaps there should be a hybrid term to describe those who do and those who do not and those who wish they could "pass"

That might clarify a lot of the infighting here.

That is, to realize that we belong to microgroups of a subgroup of society.

[ReineD]

So what happens when our fashion and presentation experts say that someone should dress age, venue or whatever appropriate to those that dress the way they want when they go out? Someone has to set a standard and who is that?

The basis for my own argument (not sure about other people) is how OTHERS (generally) view men, women, AND CDers who dress inappropriately for their ages, body types, or the venue. Not just CDers. I think this is what Jennifer was getting at in her OP, unless I misread it. It has nothing to do with how individuals choose to dress based on what makes them feel good. I for one believe that everyone has the right to dress the way they want to. BUT, if someone goes out in the mainstream dressed way too young for his/her age and/or body type, or in clothing that is sexually inappropriate for the venue, and she is stared at, she must not mistake those stares for admiration. Generally speaking. This goes for CDers AND GGs, and also men, but I think to a lesser degree.

I know that we could put 100 pictures up of both CDers and GGs in various outfits, and if we each voted on what was tacky or not there would be differences of opinion. But, for many of those pics, there would be no argument and this would likely be skirts that are way too short, heels that are way too high, too much skin showing, etc, on someone who is older, or heavier, and who is dressing for a mainstream venue and not a nightclub. These things are difficult to specify using words in posts (as you say, how does anyone decide how short is too short since there are several things in the overall appearance that put together, give the impression of tacky), but it is something that most people just know when they see it.

Last, it is debatable as to whether the CDers who present as men in drag, or who present an overly sexualized/stereotypical version of female, adversely affect those who wish to just blend and not try to call attention to themselves, other than be respected as feminine beings. I think we'd have to take a large survey among the muggles and ask them if they judge each CDer they see on her own merit, or if they look at the more outlandish presentations and judge everyone based on that. I tend to think that each person is viewed based on her own presentation and her own merit, and not based on what others do.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's another discussion beginning in this thread about CDers who go out dressed as women but who present as men. I think this is a fascinating topic. It is debatable, however, whether these CDers see themselves as male-to-female crossdressers (as MonctonGirl asks), or if they see themselves as genderqueer (bigender or androgyne ... whatever term might be used), or if they are feminine men who want to redefine men's clothing styles to allow for male feminine expression. Likely all three motives are true depending on the individual. As interesting as this topic is and as much as I enjoy following the discussion, I'd love to see it in another thread since I think it falls outside of Jennifer's scope? I think a lot more people would participate in the discussion if it were in its own thread.

[audreyinalbany]

(trying to say this as respectfully as possible, please don't read too much into it), I think those of us who are out and about dressed inappropriately for the chosen venue fit into what the majority of the public think of as a "stereotypical" (i.e.comedic) cross dresser, and, as such, may not contribute much to our overall acceptance.

[Wildaboutheels]

It's one thing to "worry" about what our friends, siblings, coworkers, acquaintances, etc. might think of WHAT we are wearing...

It's a horse of a different feather to "worry" about what Joe Doe Public thinks. Certainly you don't worry if JDP approves of the car you drive? It ISSSSSS just the clothes JDP is going to "see" unless they/you choose to interact as Humans by actually having a conversation or exchanging a few words. Actions and WORDS speak much louder than what one is wearing. Don't they?

That's the saddest aspect of this Forum IMO. So few here seem to realize that the person in THEIR own mirror along with the vast majority of the members here are your own worst enemy. JDP does not ACTIVELY LOOK to bust other Humans when they are out and about doing their own thing. CD busting is generally a hobby confined to other CDers. I'd be willing to put money on it.

Wear what you want and treat people with courtesy and respect and you are likely to never have any problem at all. As many here will attest to. And IF they are smiling on the outside...but perhaps laughing on the inside? So what? I promise you the world will not end.

It wouldn't be the first time someone laughed at you would it?

[Chickhe]

I don't get it...its obvious, there are social rules to follow if you want to fit in. If you want to stick out, then be different. The original question should have been, 'as a CDer how do I know what the rules are?'....and I think that's the root of the problem, as CDers we have limited exposure to the real world the way most women do, so we have no clue what to wear...many have this ideal image they try to replicate which is fine in your own world, but in the real world there are so many variables, how to you figure out what you look best in? So far, I've found its like an art...people can tell you rules, but your skills as an artist come in to play...I think its not what you wear, its how you pull it off...

[ReineD]

as CDers we have limited exposure to the real world the way most women do, so we have no clue what to wear...many have this ideal image they try to replicate which is fine in your own world, but in the real world ...

You may have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

[Foxglove]

So in summary:

If you dress to blend, then by all means dress appropriately.

If you want to dress as you wish and go out, blending or not, then by all means please do so and enjoy and tell all the naysayers to pound sand.

Allie, I sympathize with what you're saying here. I'm in the "Your Choice" camp. All my life I've dressed according to other people's expectations. Why continue to do that now that I'm out?

I do dress "age appropriate". What that means is dresses and skirts because GG's my age still frequently wear such, and that's what I like anyway. And it doesn't mean short dresses and skirts. I don't have a single one above the knees, and in this cold weather the skirts I wear are all well below the knees, a couple of them almost down to my ankles. You will see some GG's (though a small minority) wearing stuff like that, and I figure that if even a few GG's dress like that, I can, too.

I don't blend, however. I think it's a waste of time. I live in a very small town where everybody knows me. I'm not going to blend, so why worry about it? I have a nice-looking coat and hat, and I have some nice skirts and boots. The result is that for the little errands I have to do in town, I'm fairly seriously over-dressed. I don't care. Mainly because on occasion I see a GG seriously overdressed. If a few GG's can do it, so can I.

As far as make-up goes, I give myself the works--every day. I've tried toning it down a bit, but the fact is that without the works I look awful. And I want to look good. The result is that when I'm on the town I feel nice about myself and I'm happy. Let those who find something wrong with that say what they like. And what will cispeople being saying about me? I don't really know. I've had a few compliments from women that sounded more or less sincere. But if what they're saying about me is that I'm the transperson who's always overdressed, that's OK. If any of them have any negative thoughts about my appearance, they keep them to themselves.

I don't like this notion that there are certain criteria that we have to meet when we're out. A lot of the time there aren't any criteria for cispeople. There's lots of them that I think look pretty awful most of the time. So do I have to dress to match their standards? If I were going to worry about that, I might as well stay in drab. No, I do what makes me happy.

Annabelle