This point is well taken. When I go in for my makeover, I will be dressed, and I will act as ladylike as possible. Yes, I'm the customer, but I also consider myself a "guest" in their world, and I will conduct myself accordingly.Originally Posted by Kerigirl2009
- Amy
Amy Gale Ruth Bowersox (nee Tapie) - "Be who you are, and be it in style!"
Member, Board of Trustees, Gender Identity Center of Colorado
aka Amelia Storm - Ms. Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2018-2019, Miss Majestic Hearts of All Colorado 2015-2016
I've often wondered why people are so nice to my SO and I when we go out (she's dressed, of course), yet whenever I hear people talk about CDers in my presence (they don't know that my SO is trans), I hear disparaging remarks. And this is from both men and women. I hate to think that people are hypocritical.
I think that your friend may be more biased than most though. The disparaging remarks I hear are jokes and I've not heard anyone say that CDers are gross and ugly. Most people just think that CDers are gay.
But, maybe the saving grace is, the people who make jokes do so because they haven't interacted with a CDer, and so there is no meaningful, personal human experience to attach to the stereotypical mental image of a CDer. And maybe when people actually begin to interact with someone who engages in cross-gender expression, they can see that the person in front of them is human, just like them.
If your friend has interacted with CDers and she still has her attitude she may be more bigoted than most and she may be projecting her attitudes on everyone else.
Reine
These are the reasons that polite but confident behavior go far in order to form a new image of a TG person in their heads.Confidence and keeping it all friendly and light.."Can you make me look pretty like you?" is quite disarming to a young cosmetics salesgirl.."I didn't think so,but can you help me look better than I am?"..The point is,you are there and confident enough to say this and so she realizes you are apt to buy something...you are a customer,just like the other ones.
It SURE is my hair ! I have the receipt and the box it came in !
This has definitely been my experience in regards to most people's attitudes
Bi-Gendered, Goth/Metal Fan, Atheist, Artist and British
I'm sorry to hear that, Megan. Though it's not surprising. Most makeup "artists" at malls and stores are trained (when trained) to work on GGs. I've seen them botch many GGs, too. So, if they can't even manage to pull off something they were supposed to know about, just imagine what they produce when they wing it with a TG customer? The reality is masculine faces require different makeup techniques. Otherwise, we end up looking like men with makeup. It starts with a great shave, then beard shadow cover. Because of that, foundation application can be tricky. Highlighting and countouring is a totally different game, as our underlying bone structure is different from that of GGs. Eyes will also be a little different. So, aside from the very fortunate few, who were blessed with feminine traits and no facial hair, most of us require specialized makeup professionals. Unfortunately, people at Ulta, Mac and Sephora are generally not it. Though they will gladly take our money, and sometimes make fun of us behind our backs.
I have had GG's opt out of giving me a makeup lesson. I have had several instantly smile and glow at the chance. Sure it may be tough to be positive the reaction is sincere but for me I'm not worried about trying to figure that all out. I used to work in retail as an hourly worker and the only way to act with any customer was to be polite and helpful. When the one left that we weren't fond of we would in private vent. I can't worry about what happens after I leave if i have been treated properly while i was somewhere. This applies whether enmale or enfemme. Life is too short.
The stereotyping of young women is the very thing we claim to hate having done to us. A GG image consultant that I went to several times has met me for a cup of coffee off the clock for years now. Just keeping in touch because we have nice conversation. I can't imagine that she continues to do this purely on the outside chance i will hire her again. her business is so good we stuggle to make these coffee clatches happen.
We want the benefit of the doubt so why not reciprocate.
Thank you for saying this Deedee,
It's dis-heartening to see all the judgment.
[SIZE="4"]Momarie[/SIZE]
Wow, I see that most of us are in agreement, we just need to keep our confidence and if they are a good person, they will be able to have a nice conversation with us, and if they don't then we should find someone else to give our money too.
I am amazed at the amount of responses that this received, So I guess stirring the pot is a good thing because good things do come from negative sometimes.
I wish I had the courage to just be myself and live my life how I want
To make an optimistic point, I've been working with the two locations of our Merle Norman stores here in central Iowa, initially with the shop owner, and since with two of her employees. I've always been treated very well, been given genuinely good advice, and even had one evenings make up applied at the store. I guess my only point in sharing this is that there are folks in the retail cosmetics business that are open to treating CDers just like any other cosmetics buyer!
There are some sub-populations in which it is fairly common for the younger women to be "pretty" but the older women tend become stocky and "peasant-like". I am descended from one such sub-population, so even if I were a GG, it would not be expected that I would be "good looking" at my age.
I can cross my legs, and often do -- but it isn't "lady-like", as I cross-them way up, ankles-on-thighs. What used to be called "sitting Indian-style". What I cannot do is cross my ankles comfortably: my leg muscles are at the wrong angle, and my "male parts" get squished.
In the early 80s, long before I ever considered CDing, I went to a Merle Norman store with my then girlfriend. I bought some cosmetics for her and since I paid for them I ended up on their mailing list. Some time later I received a coupon for a free lipstick in the mail. I knew my girlfriend's shade so I dropped by the store to redeem the coupon. The salesgirl refused to honor the coupon because, as she said, "the coupons are for customers who will buy something." I asked to see the manager, but she was "out." Later on, I returned to the store and managed to see the manager who reluctantly honored the coupon.
Now the funny part. Since I've started dressing I have attended several concerts and film events in the palatial living room of the President of Merle Norman, J. B. Nethercutt. Every time I have felt comfortable and been treated perfectly normally.
Times do change, and for the better.
Eryn
"These girls have the most beautiful dresses. And so do I! How about that!" [Kaylee, in Firefly] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"What do you care what other people think?" [Arlene Feynman, to her husband Richard]
"She's taller than all the women in my family, combined!" [Howard, in The Big Bang Theory]
"Tall, tall girl. The woman could hunt geese with a rake!" [Mary Cooper, in The Big Bang Theory]
This is a good reality check. I do feel most do not understand us, and many do not want to because it's simply not mainstream thinking. About two years ago I witnessed this occurring at a local home show. A rather effeminate gentlemen (girl jeans, rose colored mules, et al) was the talk of the vendor floor. As my wife and I were sitting together at our booth we had frequent visits from numerous colleagues making sure we stayed in the loop regarding all the speculation of our "quite queer" neighbor. Anyway, he eventually made it over to say hello and we welcomed him to sit down and chat. Almost every one of the gossip mongers made it a point to stop by and chat while he was there. All were polite and there was no shortage of genuine southern hospitality flowing from their mouths. Some even complimented him on his looks, and how "well put together" he was. Once he departed our company he again became the secret spectacle.
So, I'd offer up that most people do not accept, but rather: will tolerate so they don't risk their jobs; are conflict adverse and don't want to start a verbal/physical altercation; or want to appear OK with it to an audience who feigns some acceptance. Along with that, I'd say many of those that truly are OK with CD-ing keep it a secret for fear of upsetting the herd.
That said, I choose to keep my CD-ing private so that I don't get my family caught up in the crossfire. However, I don't let it stop me from enjoying a new skirt, some cute shoes, matching panties and bra . . . . in the privacy of my own home
1. I've NEVER seen a woman crossing her legs at a makeup counter. They are always leaned into the light for the artist.
2. There are all kinds of women. There are all kinds of men. Nobody is going to know you are a crossdresser unless....you act like one. Just act like yourself. Every woman acts different. Same with us.
Life is too short to be unhappy. Stop judging yourself off of what everyone thinks. I know this is like cars. I bought a camaro, and my brother did too. I got the SS, and he had a V6. People used to tell him "You should have got the V8." I was always told "You should have got the stick." (me) "It is a stick," (them) "Well, you should have got racing stripes." Each person you come across will have to say something negative about you so they can now be the center of attention.
"If you think you can or can't, you're right" -Henry Ford
One thing also - when you work with the public, you tend to learn what a pain in the ass people can be.
The makeup ladies probably don't like dealing with anyone who is not their peer.
I guess for TG - we still have a ways to go for "acceptance". I think we are pretty much at "tolerated" by now but still have a bit to go.
Something I wonder also - do people more readily accept a CD/TS if she is better looking or at least has her look together well? To use an extreme example - If say Miss Canada (is it the TS woman?) were out and about and people knew, would they be more cool with it than say if it were an older one who has no hope of passing and just looked really awful (even if dressed to blend in)?
As we know, people tend to be more forgiving of good looking people's faults. Wonder if that applies to TG as well.
It takes a true Erin to be a pain in the assatar.
I hope that you continue to wear the same shade of lipstick that you had to pry out of the cold, gnarled hands of that recalcritant Merle Norman manager as an act of on-going pride and defiance, Eryn. They say that living well is the best revenge, and you certainly seem to have achieved that goal in this particular instance.In the early 80s, long before I ever considered CDing, I went to a Merle Norman store with my then girlfriend. I bought some cosmetics for her and since I paid for them I ended up on their mailing list. Some time later I received a coupon for a free lipstick in the mail. I knew my girlfriend's shade so I dropped by the store to redeem the coupon. The salesgirl refused to honor the coupon because, as she said, "the coupons are for customers who will buy something." I asked to see the manager, but she was "out." Later on, I returned to the store and managed to see the manager who reluctantly honored the coupon.
Now the funny part. Since I've started dressing I have attended several concerts and film events in the palatial living room of the President of Merle Norman, J. B. Nethercutt. Every time I have felt comfortable and been treated perfectly normally.
Times do change, and for the better.
Actually, I've forgotten the name. These days I mostly wear Lancôme lipsticks!
One thing, I didn't wish to cast aspersions on any current Merle Norman store or employee. What happened 25+ years ago doesn't have anything to do with today's situation.
Eryn
"These girls have the most beautiful dresses. And so do I! How about that!" [Kaylee, in Firefly] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"What do you care what other people think?" [Arlene Feynman, to her husband Richard]
"She's taller than all the women in my family, combined!" [Howard, in The Big Bang Theory]
"Tall, tall girl. The woman could hunt geese with a rake!" [Mary Cooper, in The Big Bang Theory]
I think there is some truth to it; however, it is not strictly about being better looking. It is more about being feminine in a way to make them almost forget or not be constantly reminded the person is really a man. Being a better looking woman does help with creating that impression. Humans are very visual so appearance does matter, but it is not everything. Your entire presentation has to be totally together such as body language, mannerisms, vocal quality and speech patterns (being there is more to a female voice than pitch), etc.. If any part of it is forced or artificial, others pick up on it as not being genuine. This also means avoiding over exaggerated, out dated, misplaced or male centric expressions of femininity. IMHO, those who give off a complete aura of being a genuine woman, which goes beyond appearance, probably have the most success with being accepted by others.
My, my, all this for a shop clerk's comment. I am rather used to rude clerk's in this part of the world. Few have had good training, few are paid well, all have multiple management levels above them and, as posted, perhaps this GG was playing up to what the male in her eyes wanted to hear. Maybe she is even sweet on you and thinks this will make a good impression...or at least conversation. That said,
Just before the new year I tried my hand on poetry. I posted a version of this poem on the writer's section of this site. As I've learned, few people seem to read anything but the male to female crossdressing section, so here it is again. It's called,
Ode To A Shop Clerk
My sweet serene
I don't mean to be mean
But this is for me
...for..I believe,
it gives me beauty
...I know you'll never know
...and you can believe it so
no I'm not gay
nor I do I think that way
today
Please let me purchase it
I have le card de credit (poetic license)
Can you change the size? Does it go with my eyes?
Don't you just love how it lies?
The gold is so fine
I know it is sublime
Thank you my dear
Sweet clerk's dreams to you dear
and please don't fear
this happy new year
there use to be this makeup artist at glamour boutique in north Hollywood/universal city/Sherman oaks area
if this artist did your make up you would look like a pin up model just like what JAIME AUSTIN and KEVYN AUCOIN skills do.
there is also a fashion model who is a TS at MAC cosmetics that has these skills.
I bet you that your friend has never seen models like these posted below
Aron daves or anyone from the ball and pageant culture.
aron daves pictured below is a cross dressing model and does not live as a girl. he model as a man and sometimes as a androgynous model
the models from the balls and pageants mostly go on to be stealth super models on TV,movies and high fashion and glamour magazines.
I know of some STEALTH crossdressing models and transsexual stealth models that she would not know that they were born a boy.
Last edited by luscious; 01-17-2013 at 09:29 AM.
this is aron daves as a male model
remember when someone is a TS/TG OR CD and they are in stealth mode know one knows except the people they tell
remember TULAfrom the JAMES BOND MOVIE
there are others who were in stealth and someone researched them and found out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Cossey
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...K-Sj2QXH7YC4Cg
Last edited by luscious; 01-17-2013 at 09:39 AM.
Keri I've often wondered what some people really think of us. This is a wake up call but I'm hoping she's in the minority of women that deal with us.
I find the OP's post a little sad... but inside I always wondered about some of these "wonderful experiences" girls here have had at various places. First, they are entitled to their opinion, and the best we can ask is that they be professional and do their job - which it sounds like, they do. I have lots of people I work with now, or have worked with or sold to in the past, that I really don't like - but I'm nice to them and treat them with respect.
It takes a LOT of practice at "being a lady" to really pull it off and not stand out (I'm awful at it myself) and sometimes, you just have to "get out there" and do it and let it come to you as you go. But I think, sometimes, we really have to take a step back and give an honest look at ourselves - it can be startling to someone who has never been exposed to our world. Even with the right clothes, wig, shoes, and makeup, other things can "give it away" really quickly. How you walk, how you sit, how you carry your weight, etc. Heck my wife can be sitting around in a pair of my sweats, my old sweatshirt, one of my baseball caps (with hair tied up in a bun in the back), and not wearing ANY makeup, and she'd never be confused with being a guy.
Similar to like what the girl in the OP said about crossing legs - I'm guessing some of the CD'ers she's had have not been well practiced. Sitting in a high chair getting a makeover with your legs wide open is a natural pose for a guy but definitely not for a lady - if I saw a GG sitting that way, I'd think it was certainly inappropriate too and certainly startling to see! (I don't know if I'd have chosen the term "gross" but...) I'd also imagine (total random guess here) that most of the CD'ers that go in for professional makeovers are newer at it. They don't know how to do it so they go in, get a pro to do it, and look fabulous afterwards. I'd think that, over time, most of us start to figure it out on our own. I'm fortunate to have an accepting wife who has shown me how to do my own makeup (I still need tons of practice) but if I didn't have her, I'd probably wind up going someplace like MAC or a department store too - until I'd finally had enough of paying for it and decide to learn it myself. It'd probably be one of the FIRST places I'd have gone out once I worked up the courage to go out - because once you have the complete "package" your confidence goes up and you want to go out more. But since that'd be one of my first times out, I'd probably still very much look like a guy in a dress asking for makeup.
In other words, I'd go easy on them. Just like we say about telling our wives... we've had our whole lives in most cases to deal with and accept this. These makeup counter girls haven't. Their only experiences with CD'ers might be with those who are not very well practiced.
a girl says that real women giggle behind cd's and ts/tg backs.
I told them that the ones who are in steath mode do not get the giggles because they look better then you.
most TS that have the $$$$$$ to get surgery like ffs and take hormones or and get castrated look better then the average women becasue they take the time and care to.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ead.php?180705
Exactly! However, my cynical side would like to say that there are more SA's that will be nice and then talk about you behind your back. Maybe I am right, maybe I am wrong. Who cares! Some people will ALWAYS be narrow minded - you are wasting your time and energy trying to change them or convince them otherwise.
Here's my take on this:
SAs likely talk about the CDers after they leave, but not necessarily in a disparaging way. The truth is, there are not too many birth males who go around presenting fully as women (or in a feminine manner) and wanting makeovers, so the novelty alone is cause for comment, even if the comments are not judgmental. Some of these SA's will be more OK with the concept than others, depending on her age, her open-mindedness, etc. Probably only a few will have strong enough feelings to make strong negative comments and again, this would depend on their upbringing. Are they ultra conservative and homophobic?
Most people are fine with differences in presentation, as long as it is at arms' length. This has been my SO's and my experience. They're fine with it, because CDers really have no impact on their lives and so they can maintain a friendly distance. But, if their own boyfriends, husbands, sons, brothers, etc were to come out trans, these SA's would have similar attitudes as the wives here. Some would be tolerant, some would accept, and some would outright reject the CDing if it was in their own backyards.
Reine
