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Thread: Debunking: "I like women's clothes"

  1. #126
    Aspiring Member elizabethamy's Avatar
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    My life has been all about words, in a variety of professions. Still, Reine, the answer from me is that there is something pre-verbal about why we dress. The putting on of women's clothes, regardless of the softness of the fabric, sends some kind of mysterious semi-electric jolt through the body and to the brain. It feels like what I imagine an antidepressant would feel if it worked well and instantaneously.

    The cost of crossdressing, as you point out, is absurdly high, so I believe we do it for a reason that transcends reason; talking about it gets us closer to the truth, but it will never take us all the way there.

    That's my story; the mileage of others, of course, varies.

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  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambergold43 View Post
    Clothes are important, but they are merely symbols of the meaning behind the clothes - in other words, what social information they convey (Femininity). Which is why, I believe, only women's clothes will suffice and not men's clothing of certain fabrics or colors.
    Exactly, Amber, and this implies a psychological motive which exceeds a preference like, say, that of beer to wine -- a point I think many have missed in their taking offense. That's a great way to summarize and get to the heart of Reine's intent.
    "None is more cruel and violent than the coward"
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  3. #128
    AKA Lexi sometimes_miss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambergold43 View Post
    Clothes are important, but they are merely symbols of the meaning behind the clothes - in other words, what social information they convey (Femininity). Which is why, I believe, only women's clothes will suffice and not men's clothing of certain fabrics or colors.
    Short and to the point. Well said.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  4. #129
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    I don't know about others I can only speak to my experience on this. It wasn't until only a few years ago when I finally figured out my answer to the big "why" question. But before that discovery I would've answered with "I just like women's clothes" if asked. I did this because I really had no other answer and the other answers such as to feel feminine didn't sound right to me I didn't really want to feel feminine and the honest I really wasn't feeling feminine at all. I was just a normal heterosexual young male doing male things and being perfectly happy with life except for this strange need to drees in female clothes every one in a while. There didn't seem to be any deeper meaning. How else could I answer that question with anything but "I like the clothes"? Looking back on it, it was a simple answer to hide my ignorance and confusion.When I finally found the answer, it being a fetish, my world started to make more sense. I find that finding the "why" in anything makes the world a better place.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"?
    You can apply the same thought process to gays, lesbians and bisexuals. Many times there is a thought about coming out to someone, but there may be a string of unintended consequences. Excluding people who are transgender (mind/body mismatch), crossdressers fall into the same category. However, we don't ask people "Why do you like being gay?" or "Why are you gay?". We tend to take it at face value. Basically I think you have to take the same approach with crossdressing and crossdressers.

  6. #131
    Crossdresser Taylor186's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander_48 View Post
    However, we don't ask people "Why do you like being gay?" or "Why are you gay?" We tend to take it at face value.
    [SIZE="3"]If this were only true. There are many people today who ask "why are you gay?" convinced it is a just lifestyle choice. Many more supposedly credentialed therapists are practicing "conversion therapy" to cure gay behavior, even--as recent news shows--in an "enlightened," liberal leaning state like California.

    Unfortunately crossdressing education and understanding and acceptance from the general public is 10-20 years behind that of Ls, Gs and Bs[/SIZE]
    Last edited by Taylor186; 01-31-2013 at 08:53 AM.

  7. #132
    Part Time Lesbian Diva CassandraSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?
    I want to come back to trying to answer your original question which appears to be "What is the deeper reason?"

    Crossdressing is about power. It's identification with feminine power and the desire to have it. It's about loving femininity to the point of wanting wear it. It's because one side of our genes is entirely feminine. We already know what it means to be a woman because we are half female. The female sex is the one without the actual genetic knowledge of what Y is. Yes, they can be like men but there's no stigma because they were never tasked with being in the middle. We are exhausted by having to ride the center. It's also about exploring the edges. The taboo nature of it energizes it and makes it appear as an addiction to some. Mainstream people admire balance in males and think that balance is the key to maleness. We are revolutionaries; we value exploring at extremes. We are the opposite of the competition body builder exuding masculinity. Our bodies are the canvases for our art; we paint with clothes.

    How's that for a manifesto?
    Last edited by CassandraSmith; 02-02-2013 at 03:07 PM. Reason: Grammar and clarity

  8. #133
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Wow, this thread is a great example of why I love this forum.

    This is essentially a one topic forum (transgenderism) but I have never encountered so many people that I would love to meet and share a couple of bottles of wine with. Some of these discussions just amaze and humble me.

    I'm not really surprised that so many find offense (it's a sensitive crowd) but I definitely don't understand why the desire to examine ones motives isn't universal. I am constantly questioning why I am the way I am and I love discussing it with people. Crossdressers fascinate me and I don't have any problem asking them why they do it because I just want to understand. I would ask a tightrope walker the exact same question. Why are you compelled to do that?

    People ask me why I transitioned all the time. I enjoy having the opportunity to talk about it, I certainly don't feel offended or insulted. What is so bad about an honest discussion?
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  9. #134
    Member AlexisRaeMoon's Avatar
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    Wow, this thread has some legs...ok, I'll keep it simple. Modify the original statement to, "I like wearing women's clothes." Lots of guys like women's clothes, on women. What sets us apart is the almost uncontrollable desire to put them on ourselves. And in my case, it's about looking like a woman too. It's not enough just to have the clothes on, the most rewarding part is looking in the mirror and seeing a reasonable facsimile of a female looking back. Why? I dunno. Why do people like chocolate? How come some people love Pink Floyd, and others can't stand them?

    When I was a kid, starting to get into heavy metal (Motley Crue, Iron Maiden, Kiss, etc.) people use to ask me, "Why do you like that stuff? You're so smart." Like being smart has anything to do with it. You really can't apply logic to stuff that floats your boat. You get that feeling when something says to you, "this is me," and to try to be anything else is near impossible. Some things just resonate for different people, and some times at different intensities. The desire to crossdress, for whatever reason, is particularly powerful.

    Thanks for all the thoughts. This is wonderful.

  10. #135
    Seasoned Member Rhonda Darling's Avatar
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    While I enjoy rading this thread, and considering all the possible reasons why I am like I am, at the end of the day I can't but think that all this is like contemplating your own navel. No matter how much you do it, you end up realizing that its a funnly looking squirrely piece of your anatomy that you don't really understand other than the fact that it's there for a reason, and it pre-dates your consciousness.

    Your mileage may differ.

    I love you all for your differences and our sameness.

    Rhonda

  11. #136
    happy to be her Sarah Charles's Avatar
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    While there may be something deeper that had me hooked when I was 5 or 6 years old, I kind of rewarded my crossdressing efforts once I reached puberty. Somehow the original motivation had been subverted by my changing biology. But then what happened many years later? It's not uncommon to fully dress with forms, makeup, wig, jewelry, perfume etc. and it doesn't get a rise out of me. But I do find that it now feels right, comforts some of my demons and gives me a chance to get away from old Mr. Stick-in-the-mud and his problems for an hour or two. What was simple at one time has become very complex with plenty of nuance and variety. It's like so many other things in life that become better with age because we are able to pay attention to the details and appreciate the small differences we bring to each experience. It may not have been the clothing when I was 15, but that is much more difficult to argue against nearly 50 years later. As so many others have stated, it's complicated and different for each of us. This is my story and I'm sticking with it, at least until I change it in another post.
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  12. #137
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    Smile Some of you think I was asking "why" and this was not the focus of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    Can anyone tell me why "I think that women's clothes are nicer" isn't a perfectly reasonable explanation? If someone tells you they like collecting stamps, or skiing, or playing guitar, do you normally demand some explanation in terms of psychological complexes or something? Or do you simply accept that people have different tastes and different interests, and that some people may find certain things deeply fullfilling that you cannot appreciate in the slightest? Why is what people like to wear somehow not subject to the same laws of diversity?

    A generation ago, "reasonable" people were asking the same sort of pathologizing questions about gay people. No one (except other gay people) could understand why anyone would be sexually attracted to members of their own sex other than as a consequence of some deep psychological disturbance or miswiring or something. And gay people who grew up in that environment, in which "I like it" was not an acceptable answer, often came up with all kinds of convoluted theories to justify what they liked. Now that being gay is not seen as quite so sick and perverted as it was when I was young, I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.
    Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

    First, I'm not pathologizing anyone.

    Second, you compare a preference for crossdressing to a number of other activities: collecting stamps, skiing, playing guitar, painting, cataloging earthworms, and climbing a mountain. I dare say that all genders do these things including transpersons, except the crossdressing. Only crossdressers crossdress. None of the other activities are hidden from employers, wives, children, neighbors, friends, and community members.

    Third, you mention gay men. I agree, there's nothing wrong with being a gay man. A generation ago and still today, a reasonable answer to "Why do you like men" would be, "Because I'm homosexual. Homosexual men are same-sex attracted. I was born this way and it is part of who I am".

    If the crossdressers who explain the CDing with "They don't make men's clothes in the colors and fabrics that I like to wear" were to answer the question, "Why do you like to wear women's clothes" just as honestly, then they might see what I'm trying to get at.

    Maybe you, Asche, do fall between the genders and since you've never lived inside anyone else's skin, I'm sure that wearing women's clothes is a natural thing to do. This is understandable. Maybe you think that a man who prefers to cross the gender barriers by wearing the feminine clothing that he was socialized to believe is taboo (I bet you didn't wear girl's clothes in high school), that in many marriages causes it's downfall, that causes people to lose jobs (would you ever go to a job interview dressed?), that many members in this community keep either deeply closeted or hidden from a select group of people such as their bosses, kids, friends, extended family members, if not their wives, is no more indicative of his inner gender identity than preferring all of the other activities that you mention in your post. But I honestly think there is something deeper than just a preference for fabrics and colors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    Since I cannot for the life of me understand what it means to have a "masculine side" or a "feminine side," there must be some deeper reason why people talk about their "feminine side." It must be a rationalization. My theory is that, since we live in a society in which it is unthinkable for a man to do certain things that society says are for women only, such as wearing pantyhose or skirts, the only way a man who has internalized this attitude can deal with a strong desire to do some "for women only" thing is to imagine that he is two persons: a "male" one that does all the proper male things, and a "female" one that, being female, is allowed to do those "for women only" things. (Saying he has a "male side" and a "female side" is another way of expressing the same process.)
    I can speak with reasonable authority of my SO's crossdressing. He did start out many years ago constructing a separate female identity. I'm guessing it was the only way that he could reasonably give himself permission, as a man, to do what she wanted to do. But over time and with lots of self-examination, my SO integrated him/herself and how s/he is always the same person internally no matter how he's dressed. It's just a question of feeling more feminine sometimes, and more masculine at other times. This is why my SO identifies as dualgender, and not a male who dresses because he can't find his favorite colors and fabrics among male clothing.

    I support my SO 110%. But, s/he doesn't tell me that she has a closet full of women's clothes because she prefers the colors and the fabrics they come in. Dressing makes her feel good. She likes to present as a woman, she likes to feel feminine, dressing allows her to express a part of herself that she didn't feel she was allowed to express while she was growing up, and she is well aware that she does NOT have the same gender identity as the men that he works with, his male friends, or the 97%-99% of the male population that have absolutely no interest, and who in fact have an aversion to wearing feminine clothing. The need to dress is part of my SO, just as much as same-sex attraction is part of a homosexual man's identity. And further, my SO is not transsexual and she does not identify as a woman.

    That said, there are a significant number of crossdressers who dress for fetish reasons rather than identity reasons. So if it's fetish for you and others, that's OK too! But if it is, then saying "I do it because I like the colors and the fabrics" is misleading,

    Another good topic some day, but not for this thread, would be to examine what exactly is at the root of fetish crossdressing. What, exactly, causes a man to become sexually aroused at the thought of being a woman. Many fetish crosdressers will say that their male identity is intact, but sometimes I wonder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asche View Post
    I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.
    No. They say, "This is WHO I am". Why can't the crossdressers who say they dress because men's clothes don't come in the colors and fabrics they like, say the same? There's nothing pathological about saying "This is who I am". It's just being honest. In fact, let's reverse this with a question. If you don't like to say that it is a part of you, then maybe you are ashamed of being cross-gender, and maybe deep down you feel that it is somehow wrong to identify this way?

    Please don't get irritated with me for asking this. Please remember that we are having a discussion, it doesn't change who you are, and I am merely discussing and asking questions.
    Last edited by ReineD; 01-31-2013 at 07:47 AM.
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  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by CassandraSmith View Post
    Crossdressing is about power. It's identification with feminine power and the desire to have it.
    Well, there's another person with another reason for his crossdressing (supporting the concept that there are as many reasons as there are crossdressers). But it doesn't apply to all of us. At least, it doesn't seem to fit me, for example.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  14. #139
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    I think nearly all member here agree with the "I like women's clothes" statement, the real question is the WHY. If it is only about the clothes then WHY fake boobs, make up, wigs, tucking and everything else. For most of us clothes are not enough we really want to act and look like women, some want to do this occasionally and some want to do it all the time, we are all different and we all have different motives.

  15. #140
    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
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    We don't really know WHY we dress, but we can recognize the side effects or cross benefits of dressing. So it's easy enough to substitute effects for cause.
    I like how the clothes feel, too. But that's not why I dress. I've never bought the idea that "I dress just because I like the clothes".

  16. #141
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    I think it's perfectly acceptable to have one person have a different set of reasons than another. It's taboo, it's sexual, women's clothes are nicer, it has to do with power... Take 10 people who call themselves Christians and ask about their beliefs - even if they go to the same church they are likely to disagree on something. Live and let live people. Accept who you are and treat others with kindness. Regardless of the whys - you still have to deal with how it impacts your world. And this GG hates panty hose, wear frilly underthings only for the pleasure of my guy, takes off the bra ASAP, shovels snow, takes out the garbage, will defrost pipes and can tolerate limited conversations about hair and nails before I'm bored to death, btw.

  17. #142
    Part Time Lesbian Diva CassandraSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    Well, there's another person with another reason for his crossdressing (supporting the concept that there are as many reasons as there are crossdressers). But it doesn't apply to all of us. At least, it doesn't seem to fit me, for example.
    I was sort of brainstorming here so I'm not sure if that's really the total reason for me but it seemed like fun to explore so down the rabbit hole I went ;-)

    I would have an equally difficult time explaining how I know that I'm a musician or how I can make things sound like songs when I play. Lots of other people can't do that. They don't have musicality. Many can move their fingers. Some can fake it really good but I could always see through that. CDing is the same. It's not just all the reasons mentioned but there's also this mystery about it too.

  18. #143
    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by withasmile View Post
    And this GG hates panty hose, wear frilly underthings only for the pleasure of my guy, takes off the bra ASAP, shovels snow, takes out the garbage, will defrost pipes and can tolerate limited conversations about hair and nails before I'm bored to death, btw.
    We live in a world in which it's Ok for a woman to eschew girly things but not OK for a man to embrace them.

  19. #144
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    Wow what a thread. I don't dress as a means to an end, not an end in itself. I have at least partially, mainly a feminine identity, so crossdressing allows me to be 'me.' I don't care how the clothes feel, and when I dress, I dress fully and have to go out and be a woman to the world. I am truly transgendered, and bisexual in both gender presentations, so I am fluid in both modes. I am borderline TS, but at this point in life, transition is off the table. If I was younger and had not built such a successful masculine life (parts of which I enjoy), then I would transition. But in 1990, when I came out to family and friends, gender clinics were still the rage....so, I compromise and live a part-time, fully female existence.

    I have a separate apartment, separate social group, and I go out a lot. It satisfies me thus far. I realize this could change, but it likely won't....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    First, I'm not pathologizing anyone.
    I'm sure you don't see yourself as pathologizing anyone.

    But when you characterize certain explanations as "bunk," and then, when people offer attempts to clarify what they mean, you then try to "prove" those clarifications wrong; when you take our attempts to describe our experience and rewrite them in terms that don't make sense to us and insist that they must be the real reasons -- if it's not pathologizing, it's something awfully close to it.

    A single "why?" might pass for curiosity or an honest attempt to understand, depending on the context. But repeated "why?"s, and a refusal to accept any of the answers, is going to come across to anyone as saying that there's something wrong with what they're doing, regardless of what activity the "why" is about.

    I also can't help noticing that gender-essentialist explanations -- like "expressing my female side" -- don't get this treatment from you. Evidently, explanations that reinforce the socially-approved paradigm that wearing dresses/skirts/pantyhose/etc. is in essence female are acceptable, but ones that don't fit into it or even challenge it are not.

    I don't think you are ever going to really understand this. There are lots of things about other people that don't make sense to me (but seem to make sense to them) and never will. At some point, I have to just accept that my not understanding those things doesn't make them any less real or true -- to do otherwise is an act of essential disrespect.

    I don't find your not understanding oppressive. I do find your attitude that you are entitled to an explanation that makes sense to you in your terms (and that ones that don't are "bunk") oppressive. Especially since you have the weight of "normal" society on your side.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Please don't get irritated with me for asking this. Please remember that we are having a discussion, it doesn't change who you are, and I am merely discussing and asking questions.
    Try Googling "JAQing off" for some background on why "merely asking questions" isn't necessarily an innocent activity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    Wow, this thread is a great example of why I love this forum.

    This is essentially a one topic forum (transgenderism) but I have never encountered so many people that I would love to meet and share a couple of bottles of wine with. Some of these discussions just amaze and humble me.

    I'm not really surprised that so many find offense (it's a sensitive crowd) but I definitely don't understand why the desire to examine ones motives isn't universal. I am constantly questioning why I am the way I am and I love discussing it with people. Crossdressers fascinate me and I don't have any problem asking them why they do it because I just want to understand. I would ask a tightrope walker the exact same question. Why are you compelled to do that?

    People ask me why I transitioned all the time. I enjoy having the opportunity to talk about it, I certainly don't feel offended or insulted. What is so bad about an honest discussion?
    Reine your post always make me do alot of soul searching and thinking which is something I need to do more often as for an answer I have more femaine atturbutes about me than male my whole life I would rather cook clean and take care of people than play sports or watch them Also though my life people have said I act more like a girl just the other night at work a 23 lady said you act like a girl and I am now 48

  22. #147
    ...don't encourage me Josie M's Avatar
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    Timely question for me....

    A lot of the "classic" reasons certainly apply to me. In recent years, however, I've made some significant progress in being more, "authentically myself". One postive result is that it's made me much less introverted than I used to be. Thing is, being "authentic" for me does not quite fit into societal definintions of "male" and "female". So, I suppose the reason I find expressing myself as Josie so calming is that it "gives me permission" to express aspects of my personality that society pressures me to suppress.

    The ironic thing is, behavior is largely cause and effect and the real difference between male and female expression is not nearly as great as our culture makes it out to be. Differences to be sure but minor details at best. Although, sufficient to have made me the target of gay bashing as a teenager - before I realized that I was "giving off a vibe".

    In the past I built a male "persona" that would enable me to interact with my peer group without harassment. In some cases, I took on sterotypically male hobbies or pursuits to flesh this persona out. Today, I've dropped many of those things but there also many that I wound up liking....things that genuinely were me. Again, ironically, very few of these hobbies, pursuits, whatever were exclusively the purvue of males; more just things that tended to be more associated with males.

    The harder part are those "minor details" that this society deems female. As I said, it "gives off a vibe" that not everyone responds positively to. Fortuneately, the social circles I run in these days are more easy going. Regardless, I am committed to be myself regardless of what gender I'm expressing at the time.

    So, what happens if I'm successful? What happens when who I am is no longer tied to the gender I express?

    I've actually thought about this and, if you take away the need to express as female in order to fully express myself; there is still the creative process of creating a female expression which I kinda enjoy.


    So, I imagine I will still express as female just for the enjoyment I get from the creative process even if the day comes when there isn't really a need to do so.
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  23. #148
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    I like the way women’s clothing feels on me and I like the way I look in women’s clothing. Is it a turn-on? Absolutely, but it’s also a peaceful and contented feeling that I have when I’m wearing women’s clothing. No matter how many hours of the day or how many days in a row I dress in women’s clothing I never seem to lose these feelings about how I look or feel. Some of you are very lucky, you’ve found a woman that is very accepting of your cross-dressing, I’ve never been lucky enough to meet a women (at least one that was willing to admit) that she didn’t see anything wrong with men wearing women’s clothes.

  24. #149
    Junior Member genevie's Avatar
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    I used to say it was the clothes. But then I realized that happiness comes from two simple acts. Tucking the penis away and putting on the breasts. No other alterations are needed and no clothing need be added. So what does that mean? Passing, however, would be awesome. Looking in the mirror and seeing female would be the ultimate. Probably never happen. Still don't know what it all means.
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  25. #150
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    The simple TRUTH of the matter is that "I like women's clothes" is a pretty silly statement. I'll bet a years pay that there is not a CD on the planet or a GG for that matter that lkes ALL women's clothing - thong as well as granny panties. Or miniskirts or short shorts or jeans or granny dresses. Or that likes /much less ever wears pantyhose.

    "I like SOME women's clothes" is much easier to try to dissect. Some will use all of the "trappings" that "many" GGs use - makeup, nail polish, shaving etc. and others might CHOOSE to use some or none - just like GGs. Some guys might choose to use shapewear, bras etc in an effort to look or PRESENT as close to a female as possible [especially when in public] Others could care less. As with all CDers OR GGs, no right or wrong answers or reasons.

    I don't believe any sane person could deny that EVERY Human on the planet is some combination of Nature/nurture? Certainly it stands to reason that a man raised solely by his mother and having 5 sisters is going to have a different "outlook" on presentation as opposed to a man raised solely by his father and having 5 brothers?

    How many people at this Forum, regrdless of gender would want to take a stab at explaining IN WORDS, how to stick one's tongue out? Or cough? Or sneeze? or roll your eyes....

    Certainly there are plenty of people here unwilling to pull their heads out of the sand...

    But it seems just as obvious to me that some really do not know. And are clearly frustrated by it in that many claim in various threads that they consider it a curse and would pay to be "cured".

    I think if more people were willing to actually READ the other responders in threads, they perhaps would have a better grasp of themselves.

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