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Thread: Debunking: "I like women's clothes"

  1. #76
    Aussie girl enjoying life Michelle (Oz)'s Avatar
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    That's a very interesting perception Eryn.

  2. #77
    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    I am really surprised a person that is so well versed would have such confusion and seeming objection to the idea that someone can just like the clothing.

    I LIKE THE CLOTHING, and related styles. Period end of subject.

    Now, I will add the caveat, I am of a mind that works like both male and female, I am mentally in many ways what my ex stated she was physically. I find the clothing women get to wear to be much "funner" and creative in many ways than male styles. Males styles also are more centered around power of some type (yes I realize the same can be said about female styles as well) and that power is often violent in some way. (not always mind you ).

    But, that being said.....why does it matter? Why let this bug you? Does the fact I prefer skirts to pants, and would only transition if I felt it was the only way to make it in life affect you in anyway negatively at all?

    That is the important thing that I am realizing more and more. As long as no one is hurt, financially, mentally, or physically, (unless that person is being rotten to others) then it should not bother you.
    "I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
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  3. #78
    Member bridgetta's Avatar
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    There is a few things that happen

    1. Were wired withna percentage of femme brain
    2. We love and arevattracted tomwomen and somethingnhappens where itnseems natural to do what you oove
    3. It is healthier, In mens loose clothes i walk clumsily, the ttention to dress actually creates a meditative heling space where i am in tune with my body. If a man wlks thru a room we are likely to bump in ot a chair to get it out of the way. A woman will calmly walk around it. Which is better?

  4. #79
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Why is the sky blue? N/m that one is easy to find out. Good luck getting to the bottom of this Reine.

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    Almost 80 responses and no answer to the original question. Why do some CDers reason that they dress just because they think that women's clothes are nicer? All the discussion thus far portrays many good reasons but not the one in question. Could it be simply because they choose to wear clothes that seem to them to be nicer than men's clothing?

    In other threads, CDs who frequent this site have so stated. That being the case, why choose to "debunk" the real perception of someone who is offering their opinion based upon what they think. Just because you don't like the answer, Reine, does not make it untrue. Your whole premise seems to me to be more than a bit rude and condescending.

    I AM a crossdresser; I AM qualified to make this assertion. I've been a CD at all sorts of levels for many years like others who have offered their sometimes well-studied opinions. Your perception of self and words used to describe it may well be set in stone. I can tell you from a lifetime of experience and personal interviews with many, many transgendered people that for many of us, our perception of self changes quite often.

  6. #81
    Part Time Lesbian Diva CassandraSmith's Avatar
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    I wasn't really speaking for anyone else but myself here and I'm pretty much absolutely certain that I would have taken the blue pill at my conception and chosen female. I know they also face challenges but I've known several that loved being women. For sure, I would have been more successful in finding love as a woman than as a man if my present genetics were roughly the same. There is no question that I would have been highly desireable as a woman not just because I was pretty but because I'm musical, good with kids, quiet, can keep busy, etc etc. My dance coach once said that I was what men really wanted once during a lesson. So I'm not just talking of the top of my head here! I would also have had a shot at winning some contests and being a cheerleader too ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by sometimes_miss View Post
    Then Cass wrote this:

    An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.
    This is a common belief of a lot of men; just one of the 'grass is always greener on the other side of the fence' things. Either the man really believes it, or uses the argument to support why he feels envious of being a woman as a valid reason for his crossdressing/TG/TS condition. Of course it's not true, but when searching for a simple reason to enable them to avoid facing their underlying one, it seems lots of men use it. But it's not true; they simply don't want to face reality.
    Last edited by CassandraSmith; 01-28-2013 at 07:59 PM.

  7. #82
    Jayme jayme357's Avatar
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    Reine - to me you have earned the right to ask whatever question you desire. You have been our greatest supporter. You have helped us to work through all sort of conflict. You have been kind and understanding. How can anyone jump on the proverbial bandwagon and criticize all that you have done for us!!!! There are just a handful of ladies on this site whose inputs I would never miss. Friederike, Anne, others, but most significantly, you. I cannot count the times you have clarified issues that we seem to struggle with. The way you can temper a conflict and bring it into focus so we can look at things in a logical, pragmatic way is a gift which which we should all appreciate.

    I for one, value your insights, and would be at a loss were you to choose not to participate in this process. You have my thanks and admiration, and I am confident I speak for the majority of us "ladies".

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryn View Post

    As I learned more about "girl world" I realized that one thing I perceived but didn't consciously understand was the closer modes of social interaction that GGs take for granted. Male interaction always involves a certain level of aggressiveness and competition whereas females tend to cooperate and be more nurturing with each other. I have come to realize that preference for the latter mode of interaction is a part of my TG-ness.

    I think that the clothes are a symbol of an ideal. I envy women their socialization ability. I'd love to be able to participate in that but as I cannot pass 100% I have zero chance of acceptance in the GG mainstream. The only thing that comes close is CDing events and of course the clothes can be a big part of that.
    I love the interaction with GGs and that is the reason that all of my close friends are GGs. I have real communication with GGs that is not possible for me with males. I just can't relate to males on their level. I only have one male friend and he is an intellectual that is somewhat on the feminine side, although he is not TG.
    You will become stronger in the ways of the Pink Fog. May the Pink Fog guide you and be with you now and forever.

  9. #84
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    I don't know about anyone else, but I do it because it makes me look more like a girl.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

  10. #85
    One Perky Goth Gurl Pythos's Avatar
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    See for me the notion of "I feel more like a woman" doesn't work too well for myself. Reason being....because you were born and raised male, you really have no idea what it is like to be a woman other than the social implications of that. Everything you experience is based off your perceptions as a male. Every perception is shaded by your being raised as a male. It is like someone saying " I feel more like a cat when I dress as one".
    "I am not altogether on anyone's side as no one is all together on my side"
    Tree beard. Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers.

  11. #86
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    The clothes just affirm an innate feminine feeling for me,and that is my reason,or one of them.And everyone else's answers are just as valid,there are no wrong answers.We are talking about personal feelings and preferences,these things are not there to be Debunked.Whoever is trying to "debunk" them is seriously questioning themselves and their motivations.I think for the most part everyone here understands and accepts who they are so that is why some of us don't even understand the question.

  12. #87
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Good Lord, people!!

    I didn't expect so many answers! Or so many private messages!

    I have not logged in since I started the thread so it will take a while for me to read the *four pages* of responses.

    Thank you all for responding, and I'm looking forward to reading why this question has attracted to much activity. I hope that people aren't bickering over their different points of view.

    Reine

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    Man, why all the flack? If your wife asked you this question would you jump down her throat? It's just a question asked honestly and for understanding.

  14. #89
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Good Lord, people!!

    I didn't expect so many answers! Or so many private messages!

    I have not logged in since I started the thread so it will take a while for me to read the *four pages* of responses.

    Thank you all for responding, and I'm looking forward to reading why this question has attracted to much activity. I hope that people aren't bickering over their different points of view.

    Reine are you sure you're not a double agent?

  15. #90
    Platinum Member Eryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Good Lord, people!!

    I didn't expect so many answers! Or so many private messages!

    I have not logged in since I started the thread so it will take a while for me to read the *four pages* of responses.
    Reine, I'm looking forward to your thoughtful and reasoned response to every post...
    Eryn
    "These girls have the most beautiful dresses. And so do I! How about that!" [Kaylee, in Firefly] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "What do you care what other people think?" [Arlene Feynman, to her husband Richard]
    "She's taller than all the women in my family, combined!" [Howard, in The Big Bang Theory]
    "Tall, tall girl. The woman could hunt geese with a rake!" [Mary Cooper, in The Big Bang Theory]

  16. #91
    I accept myself as is Gillian Gigs's Avatar
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    ReineD, good for you, a good question gets a person thinking, a great question starts a fire. Now that the fire is started, the question is who is protesting to much, as the expression goes, "if you throw a rock down a dark alley and something screams, then you know you hit something". I will leave now, to my own self reflection.
    I like myself, regardless of the packaging that I may come in! It's what is on the inside of the package that counts!

  17. #92
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    Guilty, I am! I've often used that excuse. I guess that I like feminine things and like to look feminine. As for clothes I understand that many mens clothes are made from the same materials as womens so it can't be the material. Many times it may be the construction of the garment. Some men's things are more comfortable such as seatshirts. Women's are cut shorter. Many times I'll wear a woman's article even if it is not as comfortable, shoes are a good example. Some women's clothes are lighter and move different than their men's counter parts. Silk blouses are a good example.

    Maybe it is the endorphins that make us want to repeat the experience. Risk raises the level of endorphins. I admit if two items looked alike I would pick the woman's article. I wear a bra most of the time. I enjoy the essence of fiminity. It has nothing to do with sex, but with mindset.

  18. #93
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    reasons or explanations

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    We've had countless threads discussing why members crossdress, with a wide variety of answers, such as: it gives comfort, or it is relaxing, it brings joy, it is exciting, it brings happiness, I enjoy being feminine, I want to look beautiful, I hate the way I look as a guy, it is sexual, it is sensual, it makes me feel like myself, it feels normal for me, I have a degree of feminine identity ... and other reasons I'm sure I missed.

    I can understand all of the above reasons, since they either describe deeper motives, or the payoff for dressing. They describe the feelings that individuals get when they dress and we all know that our behaviors are motivated by the prospect of a reward or a punishment. We tend to do things that feel good (eat, sleep, earn incomes, engage in hobbies, be altruistic and help others, crossdress, engage in other pleasant activities, etc). And we tend to not do things that feel bad. Either way, the feeling that we anticipate getting will influence whether we will choose to do something or not.

    But, there are also reasons that I don't understand and they're not reasons, really. They don't indicate how exactly the crossdresser benefits from dressing. These reasons are: "I just like women's clothes. They feel nicer or softer than men's clothes. Women's clothes have a wider variety of styles and colors. Women are allowed to wear pants so why can't men wear skirts." I might even add "It makes me feel good" to this list, since saying this is rather non-descriptive.

    Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"? Surely the payoff must be large indeed to risk all those things? Is there no need at all to be feminine, or is it really just because women's clothes come in prettier colors and feel softer?

    … which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

    Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?
    Reine, I'm wondering if we perhaps haven't misunderstood what you wanted here. The examples that you give would seem to me--after re-reading your OP -that you are citing explanations rather than reasons. reasons are the basis or cause of something, explanations clarify. for example if you said to someone that they look really femme they might reply it is because they are wearing a dress and their hair is done up and they have jewelry on. This is different from WHY do you dress? I have blue eyes because I have a genetic fault (THE REASON) that creates blue eyes, but it doesn't clarify/explain why I see the world as a depressing place.
    The reasons/basis for most people would be difficult to ascertain, the explanations for what people are doing can be as varied as there are people, and they would all be valid. "I yam what I yam" is a facile explanation for doing something, but not the real reason.
    This may apply to cross dressers of all stripes.
    " what you don't know determines what you think you know, in ways that aren't completely known to you". Howard Rheingold.
    Last edited by Eryn; 01-28-2013 at 11:55 PM. Reason: Fixed tags
    JUST a crossdresser

  19. #94
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    so let me get this straight, Reine isn't a troll?

    Look at how many people she got to answer and how many answers that are all different there are. I would say "well played Reine"

    Since 50% of the time the clothing I wear isn't what most here think when dressing (I get the clothes from the department in the store that says "Misses...Ok Juniors), it isn't just the clothes. However I do say they are "Just clothes" and nothing magic. But when I do dress, I like to dress to be seen. I can be invisible anytime. No it isn't the fabric, it is how I look. It makes me feel good about me. And that is what is important, that I feel good about me. I don't have to please anyone else.
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  20. #95
    Aspiring Member Fran Moore's Avatar
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    I'm sorry I can't give you a deeper reason Reine, because I would never make a "stand alone" statement like this. As you know, I consider myself to be TG, so it is much more than just the clothes for me. I could never just "wear the clothes" and be satisfied, because they are "nicer" (even though in most cases they are).

    Congratulations on "lighting up" the switchboard" though!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaraPeterson View Post
    Almost 80 responses and no answer to the original question. Why do some CDers reason that they dress just because they think that women's clothes are nicer? All the discussion thus far portrays many good reasons but not the one in question. Could it be simply because they choose to wear clothes that seem to them to be nicer than men's clothing?
    But why do these clothes seem nicer to them than men's clothing? You see, this answer doesn't explain CDers. The vast majority of men in this world don't find women's clothes nicer. So what makes CDers different?

    I don't wear women's clothing because I find it nicer. I wear it because it better reflects who I am. But that doesn't explain why I am what I am. The answer, "That's just the way I am," doesn't satisfy me and it wouldn't satisfy many people I've spoken to.

    Reine's question is an attempt to get to the real heart of the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaraPeterson View Post
    In other threads, CDs who frequent this site have so stated. That being the case, why choose to "debunk" the real perception of someone who is offering their opinion based upon what they think. Just because you don't like the answer, Reine, does not make it untrue. Your whole premise seems to me to be more than a bit rude and condescending.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenniferathome View Post
    Man, why all the flack? If your wife asked you this question would you jump down her throat? It's just a question asked honestly and for understanding.
    I agree, Jennifer. Reine's not being rude and condescending. As far as I'm concerned, it's a question honestly asked and for understanding.

    I myself think it's important for us transpeople to understand ourselves as thoroughly as possible. That way we can explain what we are about to sympathetic cispeople. If we don't supply an explanation, it leaves it open to trans-haters to supply their explanation--which they're always happy to do.

    I've never lost anybody's sympathy by giving them what information I can about TGism. Are we really going to allow the trans-haters to control the discussion? Here's one for CDers to think about:

    Trans-hater: Why do you wear women's clothes?
    CDer: I like the feel of it, the colors, the texture, the style of it.
    Trans-hater: But why do you like that sort of thing? A normal, healthy male doesn't.
    CDer: Don't ask rude, useless questions. That's just the way it is.
    Trans-hater: OK. I won't ask any more questions. You're not like a normal, healthy male. You're sick, you're a pervert. That's just the way it is.

    Is that the way we want to let the discussion go? I want to do better than that. That's why I look for explanations. That's why I want to know as much as I can.

    When I have an argument with a trans-hater, I won't convince him. But by giving as much information as I can, I have a chance of winning over the neutrals who are following the argument. You give them knowledge so that they won't be won over by ignorance.

    Annabelle

  22. #97
    Complex Lolita...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD
    Debunking: "I like women's clothes"
    [SIZE="2"]The title bothers me...

    It would have been a LOT better if you had written Questioning: “I like women’s clothes” rather than use the extremely insensitive and hurtful word “debunk.” Your poorly-chosen word, in this instance, infers a desire to discredit MtF crossdressers who like dressing, period. Why would you wish to do that? Pretty much everybody laughs at us, from SO’s, to confused girlfriends, to loved ones (bingo!), to media pundits, to societal watchdogs, to the man (and woman) in the street, so why must you join the chorus of negativity? You’re trifling with us. You’re dealing with us if our feelings were of little importance or worth. Debunk is a word used by people who are unable to see reality from a point of view other than the one they were indoctrinated into from childhood – you’re ridiculing us, in other words, and I fail to see why. An expression like, “I like to wear women’s clothes,” is not some kind of exaggerated claim, it’s a simple statement of fact – there’s nothing to debunk, but you, in your infinite GG wisdom, has to step in and spoil the party. Are we MtF crossdressers bugging you?

    You know, they say that truth lies at the bottom of a well. I assume you do not wish to enter that well, go all the way to the bottom, get your feet wet, and SEE the truth, so you prefer to casually peer into the well, take a quick glance, and make up your mind about something. That’s all well and good, but I would expect something a little better from YOU, a moderator (now a debunkerator) on a forum for crossdressers. I know you’re posting here as a member, but I must question your motives. Look – I’m saving you the trouble from having to go down into the well of truth by giving you a simple explanation why some of us crossdress, M to F, and gain pleasure from it. It’s not the ONLY explanation, but it seems to be the least appreciated pronouncement by those who wouldn’t know about such things. I fail to see the logic of your debunking exercise, unless you’re stirring the pot to see who agrees with your assessment – crossDRESSING says it all at times, without any further need for clarification, but why must you "campaign" against simple truths? It’s NOT helping, to say the least…

    A smilie for you: Is that what you want?
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    Last edited by Frédérique; 01-31-2013 at 10:41 PM. Reason: I changed my mind...

  23. #98
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    Hi, Freddy! I think I'd agree with you about this word "debunking". Reine could perhaps have chosen a better word. But one word doesn't invalidate a useful post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post

    An expression like, "I like to wear women's clothes," is not some kind of exaggerated claim, it's a simple statement of fact . . .
    Yes, Freddy, it is a simple statement of fact which nobody is questioning. It's not, however, an explanation. That's the question being raised on this thread: what's the explanation of this simple fact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    You know, they say that truth lies at the bottom of a well. I assume you do not wish to enter that well, go all the way to the bottom, get your feet wet, and SEE the truth, so you prefer to casually peer into the well, take a quick glance, and make up your mind about something.
    On the contrary, I think she is trying to get to the bottom of the well. She's asking why we do what we do. That question doesn't offend me. I wish I understood fully why I do what I do, why I am what I am. I, as a transperson, would love to be able to explain to her, as a cisperson, why I am what I am. Isn't this what we transpeople want--understanding? Well, a cisperson has now asked for help in understanding. Why not help her out?

    I don't see any condemnation in her post. I've never seen any condemnation in any of her posts. Her OP is saying that the normal explanations of CDing that she sees don't satisfy her because they don't go deep enough, they don't go to the heart of the matter. I'd agree with her on that. I'm looking for real, deep, satisfying answers myself. Not everybody is. That's up to them. But I don't see why a request for such answers should offend anybody.

    Best wishes, Annabelle

  24. #99
    Super Moderator Raychel's Avatar
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    No big elaborate answer for me, I have a simple mind, no deep thoughts here.
    Simple I like the feeling of the clothes better then my mens clothes.
    Been wearing blue collar uniforms for 40 years and I like to step outside the norm sometimes.
    I always have been a little differant.
    my sister's reply when I told her how I prefer to dress

    "Everyone has there thing, all that matters is that you are happy, love what you do and who you do it with"

  25. #100
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    I'm combining several responses in three posts, so please bear with me

    Thank you so much, everyone, for your responses, and for the record: I was not asking why people crossdress! I know many reasons why you do, and because I've literally read tens of thousands of posts here over the years, sometimes I think I have a greater understanding of it than many of the CDers! I was rather asking why SOME of the CDers say it is nothing more than liking soft fabric and pretty colors, as if this is on a par with preferring silk over cotton sheets … when they risk so much just to crossdress. Please read my first post.

    That said, many of you came up with answers that I did not include in my first paragraph when I started the thread, but that I also know to be reasons for dressing, so I'll list them here to keep them all in one place. Some of these are different ways of saying the same thing. I'm paraphrasing so as to not clutter this post with too many quotes, but you'll recognize yourselves when you read this:

    • Dressing gives me the permission to not be macho, not act male, and not be strong.
    • I dress precisely because they are women's clothes and this is what makes it so magical for me, because wearing the clothes makes me feel as close to being feminine as possible.
    • It's programmed into my genes and it is instinctive.
    • Saying "I just like the clothes" was a simple way for me to downplay it to my family at first, when I came out to them.
    • It is sexual when younger, and then the brain learns to associate the look and feel of wearing female clothing with sexual gratification. It rewires the brain, like Pavlov's dog experiment.
    • It's about divesting oneself of the power, privilege, and responsibility (and the stress that comes along with it) that masculinity provides and demands.
    • It's a degree of GID. I have a need to dress even though it is not enough to want to live full time or transition.
    • It became a psychological addiction after I started dressing.
    • Maybe it has to do with the endorphins!


    AND … this is another honest reason that doesn't downplay anything, which is what my SO told me in the beginning:

    • I just don't have an answer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amanda M View Post
    Could it be that they just don't need to?
    I can understand someone not wanting to explain why they crossdress. Such people can simply say that they do not want to discuss their motives. Or as mentioned above, that they simply do not know why they feel compelled to dress. But, they don't need to downplay or minimize it, not in a forum where others come for answers. Does it do a newbie any good to read posts that minimize motives, which might absolve him from seeking deeper answers if he is in a relationship where the deeper answers are requested?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joanne f View Post
    and the one thing you left out , To feel normal , I am sure that most females have exactly the same reasons for liking to wear certain types of clothing and for some unknown reason there seems to be a growing number of males that have a similar reason to do the same yet society makes us have to explain why, maybe that is the unfair bit about cross dressing
    Joanne, I did mention "feeling normal" in my OP. CDers who feel this way are also saying they dress for identity reasons. But to address your comment about GGs also wanting to "feel normal" as a motive for choosing what to wear, I've got to say that no, it's not the same thing. I always "feel normal" no matter how I dress. I dress in gender appropriate clothing no matter how fancy, casual, or even sloppy they may be. I choose different outfits based on what is considered acceptable for the venue. If I am painting a room or doing spring cleaning, I will wear any already stained, torn item of clothing that is available even if it is my adult son's discarded shirt, in order to not ruin my good clothes. If I am going for a job interview I will wear skirts & blazers with blouses. If I'm going out on a date with a guy that I want to impress, I'll wear something sexy. If I'm feeling down and want to lift out of it, then I'll suggest a fancy restaurant to my SO. Or, if I'm single, I'll call up a girlfriend and ask if she wants to come with me to a fancy night club. I would not go to my room and put on a glitzy gown by myself. Doing this would be meaningless without a place to go to.

    My clothing choices are based on what is considered acceptable or desirable for what I DO and where I GO. Alone and my myself, I wear comfy, easy wash clothes and no makeup. THIS is what is normal for me. Contrary to popular belief, wearing makeup is not actually the default, "normal" thing to do. It is not about putting on clothes that will make me feel any differently than I already feel. In my example above about putting on the glitz to get out of a depressive mood, it is the place I'd go to and the people there, that would accomplish this much more than the clothes. The clothes are just the ticket, if you will, to get me in the door. If I were to dress in clothing that most people would recognize as men's clothes (real men's clothes ), I'd stress myself out! I wouldn't want people to think me odd, and this is because I'm not gender non-conforming. If I were, then the benefits of self-expression would far outweigh the potential negatives of other people's judgments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    [SIZE="2"]
    You know, I get the feeling that you don't like US...
    [/SIZE]
    Yes, I do like you and all the other members here. I also love my SO who does what you do, although s/he identifies as a crossdresser who is dualgender.

    Please don't mistake my inability to understand the "It's just about the clothes" motives, with a dislike for crossdressers. I started this thread precisely because I do want to understand the members who say they dress in women's clothing simply because they like a variety of colors and fabrics, when there are similar colors and fabrics found in men's clothes.

    The biggest sticking point for me is that a crossdresser risks a great deal in order to either go out in public or remain closeted, if this is "just" about an appreciation for the colors and fabrics. Being closeted alone causes stress and discomfort, since a crossdresser is bound to not be able to indulge when plans are thwarted for unforeseen reasons. There are many stories on this board about tempers escalating when a CD cannot dress and he cannot tell anyone what he needs or wants to do. There are other stories about crossdressers who can't wait until their wives or kids leave so they can dress! This sort of dynamics is bound to be felt by a perceptive wive and eventually this does erode the trust or the closeness between a couple. There are indeed things to lose by doing this.

    So can you see why it is so difficult to understand when a member makes it seem as if the activity is nothing more serious than a mild preference, a "take it or leave it" activity? An analogy: I like wild blueberry pie. But, if eating wild blueberries had negative consequences for me, if for example they were on the endangered species list and there were stiff fines for indulging, or if I were allergic to blueberries, or if my family was allergic to blueberries (like some peanut allergies) and I could not have them in the house, I would not eat them! Nor would I eat them in hiding. I would cultivate other preferences, so as to not experience distress over my inability to eat the blueberries. I would eat peach pie, which I also love. I do not NEED to eat blueberries!

    You mention that women's clothes reveal. If you mean that the clothes are a symbol for the stereotypical feminine characteristics that you wish to cultivate or celebrate in yourself, or if you enjoy the female curves these clothes give you, as mfakley (#45) suggests, then you would not be downplaying it by stating this as your reason. At least it would be better than a CDer who says that he just likes silk and pink. If, however, you mean revealing the body in a sexual manner, then this would indicate a wish to entice a man, which is why women dress provocatively. This would again be a better reason than the CDer who says that he enjoys pink and cashmere … since there ARE pink, cashmere men's sweaters too.

    You mention fetish. If the fetish is sexual, then I do understand dressing for orgasmic relief. The drive for sex is powerful indeed and people will risk certain things for sexual gratification. But if the motive is fetish, then why say that is is "just" about the clothes? Barring going overboard with it to the point where it has a negative impact, is there anything wrong with having a sexual motive for wearing women's clothes?

    I can also understand if the need to dress is similar to a shopping addiction or compulsion. We have fetish/compulsive members here and I've no trouble understanding why they do this. I was once addicted to a substance and I KNOW how difficult it is to control those impulses and I admire members when they're honest about having such motives. But to just say, "Oh, I only like the colors or the fabrics" just doesn't make sense. An addict who snorts coke would seem awfully silly if he said, "Naaah. I'm not addicted. I just like the color or the feel of the powder", or, "It just makes me feel good".

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    [SIZE="2"]
    It would have been a LOT better if you had written Questioning: “I like women’s clothes” rather than use the extremely insensitive and hurtful word “debunk.” Your poorly-chosen word, in this instance, infers a desire to discredit MtF crossdressers who like dressing, period.
    [/SIZE]
    First, I haven't been a mod here for over six months. You'll note the absence of any moderator identification under my user name and in my signature.

    Second, I'm sorry that you don't like my word. But I assure you that it is not an attempt to discredit anyone. Of course, crossdressers enjoy wearing clothes. If they didn't, they wouldn't now would they? I specifically questioned the sole motive of dressing merely because of a preference for certain colors and fabrics, when similar colors or fabrics are available in men's clothes.

    I really do like you, Freddy, and I wish you would stop projecting everything that you've suffered in your personal life and in your community (which I know is biased and unforgiving), onto me.

    Also, you can read my last comment to Pythos two posts down, for my fundamental motive in wanting to open this up for discussion.

    It was an honest question, Freddy, and if you've read all the responses you'll see that quite a few of the CDers also question the enjoyment of just the clothes as the sole motive, and it's a shame that you see me as stirring the pot, especially after my history here. You need only look at my post history to see how trollish are all my other posts and threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle (Oz) View Post
    Frankly though I don't know why I dress at such a high cost ...
    Exactly. Yes, there has been a high cost for you. And even though you don't know what motivates you, you do not say that you dress just because you like soft fabrics and pretty colors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie47 View Post
    I think saying as a cross dresser I just like the feel or look of the clothing is some sort of self denial. Now, I do not really have a clue why I like to emulate women. I never was 'feminized' by an older sister or cousin or aunt or my mother. I have no excuse. I have no reason. I don't know why.

    Years ago my wife did buy me men's underpants and lounging pants in sensuous fabrics. It is not work. It's not the same as women's clothing. She bought a length of lingerie fabric to rub over my body in bed in lieu of a nylon gown. It did not work. It wasn't the same.
    Precisely. It's not at all about soft fabrics and pretty colors.
    Reine

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