Male-to-Female crossdressers get NO respect

[Frédérique]

[SIZE="2"]Pardon me while I do my impersonation of the late, great Rodney Dangerfield...

Yes, it’s the thread that must be started, inspired by, or an extension of, that OTHER thread over yonder that has garnered so many responses. To be honest, I’d rather be frolicking in my cute skirt, dear friends, but I have to write this thing. Well, somebody has to write down how they feel, based on a lifetime of well-meaning but disrespectful verbiage being hurled in our general direction. It doesn’t matter what we DO, it doesn’t matter what we SAY, and it makes no difference what we WRITE – MtF crossdressers get NO respect, period. Let me tell you, it HURTS...

I don’t expect to get any respect in the outside world, the REAL world, because I’m so far out of the ball park when it comes to gender conformity. Living here, smack dab in the middle of nowhere, certainly doesn’t help matters any. That’s one thing, but even on this site, in this alleged oasis of non-conformity, a floating amalgam of different approaches to the same visual result, we boys in girl’s clothing get no respect. Whenever one of us gathers enough courage to submit some nugget of experience, it WILL be challenged or dismissed by someone with a different “take” on CD existence. Even if I espouse respect for the aforementioned person, no respect will reflect back on me – I would like to bask in a “glow” of respect just once in my life, but, you know, it’s getting pretty dark here in my little corner of the CD world. Lights, please...

I’m sure a few of you are mouthing the words, “You have to make people respect you,” your manicured fingers poised over the keys as you read this, but, well, I’m not that kind of girl. Trying to insinuate myself by force into a respectful position is a lot like crashing a party – a party where I’m not welcome, and, in any event, I wasn’t invited. People like me have been excluded since the get-go, and lack of respect for such individuals (key word there) is a foregone conclusion. It’s sad. Even GG’s, supposedly the most compassionate, understanding, and sympathetic people on the planet, have a hard time fostering respect for a male who wants to wear their clothes. Is there no hope for the poor, misunderstood MtF crossdresser?

Of course, I know exactly how to gain the immediate respect of everyone – STOP crossdressing! I think this solution only applies to us “casual” MtF types. I mean, I don’t have to crossdress, but I do, much like other males do whatever they do to feel pleasure. A male by birth who thinks he’s really a female has a legitimate reason to crossdress, whereas I’m some kind of amateur, not only an approximation of a female, but an approximation of a transgendered individual as well. Everybody will no doubt be relieved when I burn all my femme stuff in a hastily-constructed backyard bonfire, and I turn my back on gender-bending insanity forever. Respect will ensue forthwith, everyone will breathe a huge sigh of relief, and I will wind up wondering what I did to myself. Well, it ain’t gonna happen, not now, not ever, so how about respecting my “brand” of crossdressing? There are a lot of US, you know...

Respect means valuing each other's point of view, even if “begrudge” is part of the equation. It means being open to being wrong. It means accepting people as they are. It means not dumping on someone because you're having a bad day. It means being polite and kind always, because being kind to people is not negotiable. It means not dissing people because they're different to you. It means not spreading lies (disinformation) about people. To tolerate someone is not the same thing as respecting someone. This discussion could go in several different directions – we could discuss estimation (or worth), and how it leads to respect, or we could discuss how courageous behavior leads to respect, or we could discuss how we must have respect for the feelings of others. Life is short – can I just have a little respect?

With all due respect, I’m only interested that the crossdressing community, a peripheral part of the LGBT community, respects those who dress M-to-F for pleasure. It seems to me that if the pursuit of happiness is an official declaration of intent, it follows that pleasure-seekers should be respected members of the human race. Maybe they are, in some circles, but it’s odd that males wearing women’s clothing is never seen as an undertaking worthy of respect. It’s gonna happen (CD’ing, I mean), like it or not, so why not validate this most ancient of human practices and wipe the tears from my eyes? I don’t really expect any respect for what I do out in the landscape of conformity, but I WOULD expect a little respect from other MtF crossdresers, or any so-called “expert” that has made a serious study of the alleged “problem.” Apparently we’re not worthy of any respect...

We are lacking respect for each other, I suppose, but I cannot respect someone who dismisses the hard-won experience of a MtF crossdresser, inserting his or her own words in place of the truth. I don’t know about you, but I can hear the snickering between the lines. Enough! We deserve better, for we’re trying to feel good about ourselves. The latter comes about because we are burdened with TONS of disrespect, generational in scope and prejudicial in the extreme, and it would really help to feel a little respect now and then from others. I (we) could then extricate ourselves from this pile of human negligence. I would rate respect more highly, or more important, than acceptance; in fact I can safely say that acceptance flows, unchecked, by gravity, from genuine FEELINGS of respect....

To paraphrase Mr. Dangerfield, the next time you encounter a MtF crossdresser, do US a favor: give that person one of these:

Please tell me how you feel about respect, or lack of, as the case may be (and probably is). Is it important to you? [/SIZE]

[justmetoo]

I espouse self-respect first.
(that's not meant to be aimed at you, it's just generally a good thing for anyone.)

[GroovyChristy]

Frederique, while I'm not into women's clothing for the same reasons you are, I certainly would not think of you as an approximation of anything. You are what you are, and what you are is lovely. I generally do not question what people are doing. I accept it and move on with whatever it is I am doing (and as a history student, I am often thinking about what people used to do ). I think it's ok for people to raise questions though. I have one friend who knows about my "cross dressing" and my gender identity. He is perfectly accepting and asks no questions, but I would welcome questions if he had any. It is an attempt at understanding if asked politely and earnestly, and I would be happy to try and answer.

I also wish there was more respect. I wish people could just be respectful and accepting in general. As long as people are not harming themselves or others, what they do should be respected. I wish I could go to my classes and my workplace in women's clothing. I wish I could go to church in women's clothing. I want to talk to the females I encounter during my day about makeup, hair, nail polish, clothing, etc. I believe such a world is possible. We must push for understanding and open a dialogue with people who are not like us for this to be possible. Feminists, lesbians, and gays have been doing quite well at that, and we can learn from them. Of course, there will always be people who will not be accepting. Like with such things as slavery in the past, the many proponents of inequality can eventually become the stubborn few.

[Ceri Anne]

Uff Da, We really need to go out together for dinner sometime when I'm in Wichita or within a reasonable distance of Lindsborg. Unfortunatly I don't get to Salina as much as I used to. As for respect, yes, I have seen other CD's trash someones outing or experience. That is unfortunate. In some cases, it may come across as dissing someone, when in fact it is more like sharing a different result from the same situation. There are also cases where the commenter brought on the bad situation itself. But in my experience these will always happen, but dont happen very often. Most of the Cd's, GG's and others here I feel are very genuine, open and sincere in complements and sometimes criticism. This can all be a growing experience.

The most important thing is to keep your self respect. Nobody should ever be able to mar your self respect with their own pushiness, insecurity or crualty. If your self respect is based anywhere except within you, then somebody else has great power they never should have over you. Be true to yourself and damn the torpedos, full speed ahead.

When in public, I can only comment on my own experiences. Have I had people make rude comments, yes, but I actually have a number of non gay, non Cd friends who are really genuine and look forward to me coming to visit. I have been told that I am one of the most genuine and sincere and interesting people they know (wow, I was floored) Weather Cd or regular, be yourself, treat others as you want to be treated and respect yourself. You have no control over their reactions, narrow mindedness or cruality. Take pride in just being you, and living as you wish. Even in small town America, people may point, may laugh, may think your nuts, but once they see your not affected by it, they loose interest and pretty soon your just that guy who dresses as a woman......and your accepted.

[Jamie001]

I also wish there was more respect. I wish people could just be respectful and accepting in general. As long as people are not harming themselves or others, what they do should be respected. I wish I could go to my classes and my workplace in women's clothing. I wish I could go to church in women's clothing. I want to talk to the females I encounter during my day about makeup, hair, nail polish, clothing, etc. I believe such a world is possible. We must push for understanding and open a dialogue with people who are not like us for this to be possible. Feminists, lesbians, and gays have been doing quite well at that, and we can learn from them. Of course, there will always be people who will not be accepting. Like with such things as slavery in the past, the many proponents of inequality can eventually become the stubborn few.

The only way to get what you wish for is to get out there and make it happen!! I do all of the things that you mentioned except as a feminine male. Gays are doing quite well because they are out there in the world and are proud. On the other hand, the majority of crossdressers are cowering in the closet.

[JadeEmber]

Well, I should certainly hope you don't feel ostracized here. There are plenty of pure MTF crossdressers who see themselves as fully masculine. It's a tricky bit, as people will express their opinions from their own point of view, although I've generally felt people are pretty respectful. But sure, I've seen that not happen . Ultimately, this is a marginalized group, so it's to our interest to support each other.

In general, though, pure MtF crossdressers are in a weird spot. LG kind of established validity, and then the B established validity. Now, there's a growing, but still not prevalent, respect that people might be born in the wrong body. Trick is, extremes are easier to explain, and a binary stealthed trans person doesn't break the default view of how the world works. That's one reason it's frustrating that trans separatists and black-white binary people attempt to devalue everyone else to cater to the mainstream or their own opinions. For people outside those current tropes, we mostly need to hope that society begins to care primarily about things that actually matter for improving life, not arbitrary rules.

I suppose those of us who achieve some level of visibility should stand up if we can, as some people have. Not to lay pressure on anyone, as I know it's unfair to ask such things of anyone.

[Tamara Croft]

You just can't please everyone, but I dealt with that thread and said person who started it.... some of the posts in there were disgraceful and made me so mad. That is not what I want on this forum and I am stamping it out. I know we don't want a forum that is full of 'you go girls' etc... we want meaningful conversation, but that thread, that wasn't meaningful, it was just mean period! (yes I can be mean too, so be careful )

[Michelle M]

How do I feel about respect? I don't believe respect must be earned, nor do I believe it is to be expected until proven otherwise.
Respect me because I'm me? Because of who I am? Because I'm rich or poor, your parent? Who am I to have this expectation?

How do we care for others? Do we do for others in a way that will benefit their lives? Do we say or write things which will help them along their journey through this tough world, and offer direction with the tough decisions they need to make? Do we stand in a hot kitchen in a church basement making dinner for those who would otherwise go without? Do we always drop a bill in the salvation army bucket (even though they are unsupportive of many of our issues, but we know a portion of our contribution will go to help someone in need)? These people don't care about my respect, they would go on doing it regardless of my feelings, but they have my respect. I have a great respect for many people. Not for who they are; but for the actions they take, or the insults they let go, or the knowledge and kindness and love they share.

Is respect important to me? I expect to be treated cordially, even when I make a mistake or someone disagrees with me. I appreciate a kind word and an acknowledgement when I have accomplished something, or prevented something bad. But these are not respect, but courtesy. I always extend and expect courtesy. I have never asked for respect, or expected it. But yes, it is very much appreciated. When it's there you can feel it like a warm sunrise, and it is important to me. It is remembered and cherished.

And Rodney Dangerfield - I've got all kinds of respect. Rodney + Chevy + Bill Murray + Ted Knight = enhanced my life and many others a long time ago.
Michelle

[Beverley Sims]

I espouse self-respect also, I feel for those who cannot express themselves clearly and get brushed aside as others do not have time to understand them.
There have been some here that clearly need help in this regard and I respect them for perservering.

[LaraPeterson]

Frederique,

I'm not sure I fully understand the whole idea of respect. We (maybe I should say I) throw the word around a lot when we are discussing interpersonal relationships, but it seems at any moment when one or both parties IN a relationship disagree about anything small or large, respect goes out the window. . .unkind words, accusations, etc. I try to respect everyone, even those I hardly know, but sometimes it is hard. Speaking for myself [ONLY], my dry wit and sarcastic replies to inquiries and statements that I just do not agree with, cause me to come across as a person without respect. I hope I am not.

Toba Beta [an Indonesian Syfy writer] wrote, ". . .sounds naive respecting someone who doesn't give a shit about you." I have no idea if this is the kind of lack of respect you are talking about, but I imagine it is. Since I came to this forum just a couple of months ago, I've been PM'd by folks who I have grown to admire from a distance. I've heard from some who seem a bit "off the wall," and I've gotten a couple of missives from individuals who I hope I never meet in a dark alley.

Since these are people I don't REALLY know, but WHO DO we really know, it is certainly much easier to not hold them in as high regard as someone I lay my eyes on with any level of regularity. I guess what I am getting at is that respect goes back to another of your threads, CARING. I facetiously wrote, "Who cares." Unfortunately, that immediately showed a lack of respect. I'm sorry for that.

It does seem to me that sometimes you do strain a gnat to swallow a camel--that's not a putdown, by the way--your detail is just so overwhelming. Maybe I'm just jealous. When someone writes with the elegance that you do, someone else is certain to take exception--especially the self-believing experts. And you know what an expert is---anyone who gives advice on a subject when they are more than 50 miles from home.

So, I don't need your respect and you don't need mine-- but it sure would be nice to have it, wouldn't it? I guess that's what this is really all about, anyway. Can I have your respect, probably not. You don't know me anymore than I know you. And until I see you in person, talk to you about the cares of life, and see how you conduct yourself day by day, I likely can't offer much more than pseudo-respect; i.e., what you may or may not receive after reading MY words.

I think that holds true for all of us here and on any other faceless forum (even if there are pictures). Respect is hard to come by and even harder to hold onto. Winston Churchill said, "I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up at us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." I guess I like pigs, too. Maybe other CD's are the only ones we can count on to treat us as equals.

I hope you find the respect you are looking for, but I won't hold my breath.

[melissakozak]

Only through blood, sweat and buckets of tears have come to self acceptance. Only through self acceptance can you get internal pride. Once you have pride, respect is not as important. Some people won't respect me, ever. It is their problem, not mine.

[docrobbysherry]

No one DESERVES respect! It's like money. U must earn it!

[Foxglove]

And yet a number of CDers replied to that OTHER thread and found no disrespect in it, took no offence at it. They found the question asked a valid one and said so.

If the question asked is, "Why do you CD?", one answer, e.g., is "Because I like the clothes." Well, yes. Obviously you like the clothes or you wouldn't wear them. The problem with that answer is not that it's invalid. It simply doesn't say very much.

So if someone goes on to ask, "But why do you like the clothes?"--an understandable question, given that the vast majority of men in this world don't like wearing women's clothes, how is that disrespectful? Nobody's questioning your right to wear them, nobody's condemning you for wearing them. They're simply asking why you like them. How is that disrespectful?

People could put me in a similar position. Given that I'm now living as a T-girl full time, somebody could ask me, "Why are you living that way?" I could answer, "Because it makes me happy." Well, yes, obviously it makes me happy. Otherwise I wouldn't be doing it. But that answer simply doesn't say much. Would it be so unreasonable for someone to go on to ask, "But why does it make you happy?", given that the vast majority of those born male wouldn't be happy living the way I am? Why should I take offence? Why should I find it disrespectful?

In fact there are people I've come out to who've asked me this question in so many words. They haven't been judging me, haven't been condemning me. They simply want to know. That's understandable. They're cispeople who are baffled by a transperson's way of going about things. Should I call this disrespectful? On the contrary, I find it respectful. They're making an honest attempt to understand me. They're taking enough of an interest in me to be willing to learn.

I think some people were looking at this question and that OTHER thread all wrong.

I'll say this, too: I think if we transpeople refuse to face this question, we're making a serious strategic blunder. As we all know, there are lots of trans-haters out there, and two things they commonly say about us are

[1] Being transgender is a choice.
[2] Transpeople are silly, confused, sick people who make this choice for unknown, but obviously silly, confused, sick reasons.

How are people to know otherwise if we don't educate them? We all know the above two statements are wrong, so why not try to communicate that to people? If all we say is, "I like the clothes," or "It makes me happy," we're saying nothing that contradicts these two statements. Liking women's clothing appears very confused to cispeople, even very nice cispeople. Sick people can be made happy by sick things.

If we say nothing more than "I like the clothes" or "It makes me happy," we're conceding the battle to the trans-haters before it's even engaged.

Why are we transpeople the way we are? Unfortunately, given the state of scientific knowledge right now, that's a question we cannot answer. But when I speak to cispeople, I give them an idea of the research that's being done these days, the theories that are being discussed. I show them that I'm not just a silly, confused individual. I show them that this is a serious matter that I'm taking seriously, that I give serious thought to. I show them this is serious matter into which serious research is being done by serious scientists and psychologists. When I do that, there's not a one of them who fails to show me respect.

There are many decent cispeople in this world who are potential sympathizers and allies. If we want them on our side, we need to give them something to go on. If we don't challenge the trans-hater's bigoted views, then that's all decent cispeople will have to work with. Is that where we want to leave things?

When someone asks you to explain your motives, they're not judging you, condemning you, challenging your right to do as you like. They're simply trying to understand you. Which means they respect you. If they didn't respect you, they wouldn't bother trying to understand you. They'd just condemn you out of hand like the trans-haters do.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Tracii G]

I think respect among ourselves here comes from showing ourselves in pictures.
Also always trying to be positive and not finding fault with others and critiquing everything they post.
Essentially not getting butt hurt over the little things.
I don't agree with some here and that is well known but I respect them first and foremost.

[Frédérique]

No one DESERVES respect! It's like money. U must earn it!

[SIZE="2"]Well, so much for that thread. Can someone point me towards respect, please? [/SIZE]

[Tamara Croft]

No one DESERVES respect! It's like money. U must earn it!

I'm sorry, but you're wrong on so many levels. Members on this board need to respect each other and not slam them for being what they are, which is what I think Freddy was getting at, I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong. Take you for example Doc, you dress differently, you wear a mask, I respect that's who you are, you didn't earn my respect, it was a given.

[Michelle (Oz)]

A reply at a somewhat superficial level.

I do find when out dressed femme in the community a degree of respect. This likely doesn't come from understanding why I dress but from the pleasantness of my engagement (whether dressed male or female) and my effort in presentation. Respect is valued and empowering.

More to the point, I am not shown disrespect (to be distinguished from someone's surprised recognition that I am a male presenting female). This is really important to me.

I'm fine with being recognised as a male presenting as female (engaging in a male voice will do that) but I'm not sufficiently thick skinned to take disrespect.

As to this site, there is much value in information sharing and I find pretty much that our experiences are not unique. I have different views and outcomes from some but many in common with others. I don't yearn respect from people I do not know but I do respect members for dealing with often difficult circumstances in whatever way works for them.

Ultimately respect in the live interactions within the community is far far more important to me.

[Tara D. Rose]

In almost all, not all but for the majority of my posts, I usually sign it with,
Love & Respect,
Tara

I feel that respect comes first, and might be lost later, not that it is having none for someone and gaining respect later.
Love & Respect,
Tara D. Rose

[Luna Nyx]

[SIZE="2"]Well, so much for that thread. Can someone point me towards respect, please? [/SIZE]

you got to respect yourself first and foremost. You and all of us have each others respect in that we have a community that mostly cares for one another ad will help each other. Granted there will be spats but in the end we will work it all out. Frédérique you have my respect in that you arent afraid to speak your feelings at any cost.

Love & Respect should be more of a staple when it comes to humanity.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i was not a huge fan of "that thread"...but it didn't seem offensive or untrue ..

the OP says respect is about valuing anothers point of view...how ironic that the OP was in response to a thread from another point of view that was closed...

the op is an example of a false assertion to make a point.. "NO respect"???
it's a head fake (although respect is an issue that's fair to discuss...that's not what's being discussed in the context of this forum)

the concept being discussed is really credibility..and you have it or you don't...and unlike respect which is something that everyone of deserves and should expect, credibility is earned...

[Shelly Preston]

Hi Frederique

Getting out and about can help gain respect by changing peoples attitudes one at a time. Sometimes people respect the fact you are brave enough to be who you are to be out and about.
MTF cder's sometimes have trouble gaining respect for a couple of reasons.
There are those who think because they have the freedom to choose what they wear forget the public do have a breaking point on limits of decency.
The other problem is some here who go present themselves like any other woman do such a good job that they dont even get noticed as being a crossdresser

There is also the problem of understanding People shun what they dont understand. This happened to a lot of those who first followed punk rock. they got a lot of abuse of their choice of clothing hairstyle and body jewellery

I do wish people were respectful of others choices but sadly that is not always the case.

[Wildaboutheels]

First of all, Joe Doe public IMO, is not out in the RW, actively LOOKING to bust CDers, like so many members here who seem PROUD of their CD busting abilities. That's complete and utter nonsense, and I challenge any of those folks at this Forum to come sit in any mall in Florida on the weekend and be 100% correct about... male OR female? It simply ain't gonna happen - simply too much skin, too many body types, a huge difference in ages and too many styles and colors of available clothing.

The NIMBY attitude here is epidemic. CDers need to simply do their own part [to earn the respect of "Society"] by simply going out, and interacting with others face to face. Show them by your ACTIONS that you/we deserve the same amount of respect given to others and that stereotyping people based on their appearance or clothing is both non productive and FOOLISH.

[Deedee Skyblue]

No one DESERVES respect! It's like money. U must earn it!

I think being human earns everyone a certain amount of respect - the kind of pleasant interactions that make the world work more smoothly.

Deedee

[Sarah Doepner]

There is also the problem of understanding People shun what they dont understand.

Freddie, Shelly has managed to hit what I think is key to the issue of respect. It's hard to respect something you don't understand and I think we find that so many crossdressers don't understand themselves at all, and it leads to no respect for themselves and then to others. As for the public, not only do they generally not understand what mtf crossdressing is about, but they don't WANT to know. That makes it a hurdle that will be very difficult to overcome.

Some cultures have had a traditional and safe place for someone like us, but in Western society that hasn't been the case. We show up on the fringe, in the dark, peaking out of the closet or when in the full glare of the lights become the focus of misunderstanding and thus, no respect. How do we move to the middle of society? Your guess is as good as mine. My guess is it won't be in one giant step, but in little mincing steps where we manage to get one or two people at a time (occasionally crossdressers will have to be included here) to understand something about crossdressing. After that happens, maybe they can move on to respecting our decision to wear the clothes, apply the makeup, change our body shape and accessorize, or maybe not. But at least it won't be a choice made without due process as most of the decisions and judgments made about crossdressers seem to be.

[KellyJameson]

I think for myself I carry a small measure of resentment for the crossdresser. Not for what they do on the outside but for why and what that implies because I want that for myself.

I would love to have the relationship to clothes that you do because it would than mean that I am not me.

Even if it meant living with the conflict that it causes with the SO or not having a SO because the crossdressing is more important and cannot be compromised on, that would still be a small price to pay to "not be me"

You are a beautiful person and this beauty comes out in your movement toward the feminine beautiful.

This seems like such a natural and healthy thing to do because it comes out of a healthy sensitivity that I often see displayed by men on this forum.

In a way it is not the crossdresser that is disrespected but the sensitive male who finds expression of this sensitivity through crossdressing as movement toward the feminine represented by his own experience, interpretation and understanding of the feminine.

This feminine actually stands outside the gender of women and many woman are not feminine in the way the feminine is expressed by crossdressers because it requires a certain delicacy often lacking in woman.

I wish crossdressers would move out into the world because I think they could fill a void left by woman who have rejected the very thing crossdressers embrace and I think this may be one reason for crossdressing by sensitive men who miss this world that woman have abandoned.

The thought of having a sexual relationship with crossdressing would disgust me. Not because I would experience it as a perversion because from the crossdressers perspective of being a male heterosexual it seems like the must natural thing to do "from my perspective"

It disgusts me because it is a violation of "self" much how a heterosexual would be disgusted by themselves if they engaged in homosexuality.

The implications of what this means for me is transsexuality as "me" so I wish I could experience myself as a sexual object as an expression of male heterosexuality because than I would not be "me"

I do not know if respect is the problem Freddy, so much as people being so absorbed with their own pain that they do not notice the pain of others.