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Thread: Why do GG’s have a problem with US?

  1. #1
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    Why do GG’s have a problem with US?

    [SIZE="2"]M: “I thought all women liked being called girls.”
    F: “About as much as you like being called a boy by a member of my sex.”
    M: “I don’t mind it.”
    (dialogue from The Cassandra Project by McDevitt & Resnick)

    Sometimes I think of this place as a boys’ clubhouse, with an imaginary “no girls allowed” sign on the door. It isn’t exclusionist, of course, so GG’s wander into this No Man’s Land to complain about what we do from time to time. You know, “my boyfriend insists on crossdressing – please help me understand what’s going on,” or “I didn’t want this,” or “what’s wrong with you people, anyway, and can we get help for the afflicted?” Some GG’s even go so far as crashing the party, or pouring water on the glowing fire, or, in extreme cases, debunking cherished ideals right out in the open. What’s a boy/girl to do? I’d like to feel GOOD about my crossdressing, please...

    There are many exceptions to what I have just described, i.e. GG’s who are genuinely supportive in a compassionate sense, but others send me around the bend. I get nervous when the real girls show up, and even more nervous when a friendly give-and-take erupts along the lines I have just described in the previous paragraph. Nearby, in other threads, the poor MtF is exasperated about being initially accepted, then not-so-accepted, by his confused, vacillating SO. Apparently a male dressing like a female is some sort of pestilence, an unwelcome blight that forms on the healthy leaves of gender expectations. The GG realizes she can’t accept MtF crossdressing in her midst, so she will be henceforth unable to understand it, no matter what the “afflicted” male might say...

    I mean, I wouldn’t dream of going over to the FtM section and throwing my male-by-birth masculine “weight” around, couched in thinly-veiled sympathetic verbiage. No, I assume that they know what they’re doing, and, in any event, I don’t want to spoil their party. However, it seems to be much easier for everyone to understand why a girl (by birth) would wish to be a boy (or at least look like one) than it is to understand why a boy would wish to be a girl. GG’s seem to have a BIG problem with this relatively innocent exercise of boys wearing their clothes for pleasure, and I wonder why that is? Surely roads and paths beckon us to explore, bodies of water encourage us to take a dip now and then, and birds inspire us to fly, even though we are essentially Earthbound, so why is it so hard to understand why some of us boys would want to try on that dress over yonder?

    Not every male (boy) feels this way, but some of us do, and it has nothing to do with upsetting the gender mores that GG’s have carefully maintained over the centuries. Well, how else can you explain this reluctance to accept something (MtF crossdressing) that is natural and inevitable? Perhaps gender correct-ness is the province of the female, and she is doing all she can to insure the survival of civilization. This means boys must be boys, and nothing less will be tolerated. Males are usually off trying to extinguish each other, or discredit each other, using their stupid ideas to keep the waters of civilization perpetually muddy. Meanwhile, the females watch from the shore (when they aren’t engaged in their own masculine power struggles), detached from all the male nonsense going on around them. This equates to the status quo, and procreation carries on apace, somehow, propelled by the instinct to survive. To be sure, females (girls) have a thankless task...

    But, enter the MtF crossdresser, and the carefully choreographed gender ballet is disrupted at a stroke. She needs a HE, but he would rather be a she himself. Where does this leave the GG? Isn’t this just one more disgrace, one more insult, and one more ignominious slap in the face she is forced to endure? I imagine that when a man dresses as a woman, no matter how innocuous it may be, a GG’s whole sense of propriety comes into question, at least in her own mind. “What am I to do?” she might say, followed by, “What does he expect me to do?” Suddenly, we’re in a situation where roles are reversed, HE is subjugated, subject to approval, and she has hold of the familial and social reigns. Worse still, he’s wearing clothes she wouldn’t dream of wearing, bringing back a bygone era (not too long ago) when M and F clothing was strikingly dissimilar! In short, the world is upside down, and the GG, with her 21st century voice, WILL be speaking up...

    I understand, but please let the boys wear their girl clothes. I could try to explain why the latter takes place, wasting my time in the process, but why bother? Unless you’re male by birth, how could you understand a need to slip out of your male gender, by way of appearance, and approximate something you either admire, or feel a kinship with, or perhaps secretly loath? Someone who has read this far may come to the conclusion that I dislike women to a certain degree. I don’t. My admiration of females, both in appearance and assimilation of better human characteristics, is assured and not subject to discussion. That being said, I don’t understand why THEY don’t understand MtF crossdressing – I try to keep out of sight as I float through life in my femme finery, partly because I don’t want to upset any females in the vicinity. In other words, I’m all-too aware of this “problem” they have with us...

    I guess men/males/boys do a lot of stupid things, as judged by females, but being male is neither a bed of roses nor a bed of nails. “It just made sense at the time” is a male mantra of sorts, and it may apply to our need to crossdress, although crossdressing can be a lifelong passion. Why? Well, women are always there, either looking the way they do, or comporting themselves the way they do, or making the best of a bad situation the way they do. They laugh, they cry, and they express their unabashed bewilderment at us, the boys dressed as girls. I get the feeling that GG’s on this site are saying something like, “Really? You actually want to do THAT? Give ME a break!” It (MtF) just doesn’t jibe with their “take” on reality, a reality that is conformist and non-negotiable. They take their role so seriously that our little experiments in gender-bending are unappreciated, suspect, or worse. Can I come to YOUR party, ladies? Yes? How about dressed like THIS? No? Why not? I mean no harm...

    Well, I gotta get back to the boys-dressed-as-girls club and resume my “quiet girl” persona. GG’s, think of it merely as men gone fishing, albeit in girl’s clothes, without troubling the fish. We need to get away now and then, and, if you're like me, it ALWAYS seems like a good idea at the time...

    I’m appreciative of GG’s who genuinely like (or accept) what we do, but most of the time I feel like we are under attack from those we are trying to emulate. What do YOU think the problem is?
    [/SIZE]

  2. #2
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    Hmmmm....I don't know!!! Maybe it boils down to societal stereotypes?.....estrogen vs testosterone??.........maybe just confusion between..OMG, you want to be a girl? Does that make me a lesbian???? I think it really boils down to how society, historically, tends to dictate what male and females should be....what their "roles" are in a sexual relationship????? I'm still trying to figure it out, tho I doubt I ever will, nor will I lose much sleep over it. I would really like to hear a GG's perspective on this tho as well!!

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    Frederique your killin me....... I passed out 3 times reading your post. I dont think they give a s"!+. Thats just me.

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    Hi,

    The Hammer will come down on myself no matter how i answer because ill not be accepted as male or female ,

    Can i look at perspectives from your point of view as a real male ....no,

    So can i see this from a females perspective , i should, though i dought it will be accepted, you said no man's land , i'v been there for most of 55 years, my first 5 are a blank ,= a nothing ness .no memory. wiped out,

    The real world where i am where i live & interact with my friends yes most are women , why because i relate with them im on the same page as they are, & im accepted as nothing else other than a normal woman who they know is some what different, this became very clear last week with 230 men & women a whole week to gether,

    So how i answer ?s can only be as a woman because i have nothing that i can answer with from a so called male's side of any issues, i thought i could i know for sure i cannot,

    In an answer to the ? ill say i find it very hard to understand men who dress & try to emulate us who are female / woman i just dont get it....... i cant be any more honist than i am

    Our men with in our Renaissance group some 100 & more do wear dress's & skirts & as an aside do look i know i know === pretty good lovely men , , the thing is not a one of them are trying to be like emulate or pass as or be any thing like a female or woman they are & most here will know the meaning far better than i & with the understanding better than i can ever know , they are mens men.. thats where i fail i can only attempt to try & understand i really dont, at least im trying too.

    ...noeleena...

  5. #5
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    Original post is way to long to read sorry Freddy.
    Not sure why you do that but carry on.

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    I know of women who See's a TS,CD or a drag queen as competition. they do not want the competition. the TS,CD or a drag queen goes to more effort to impress and look there best.

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    The plain and simple answer is that very few GGs think or [more importantly] SEE like men. It would conflict with their prime directive in life. Mars/Venus is full of examples of this.

    I'd be wiling to bet that the more visually oriented any GG is, the more likley that she will be "more accepting" of CDers of any flavor or variety.

  8. #8
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    My first thought as I read this was, what’s Freddy talking about?
    [That was after thinking this thread is to long to get through before I have to go out in a couple of hours, sorry Freddy]

    Are you criticising the women that frequent this forum? [I speed read the thread as I am not getting any younger]
    I have recently had some discussions with one or two GG’s on this forum and it’s been a pleasure to talk to them. They have been so nice and supportive.

    Or are you criticising women that have partners that crossdress and don’t like it. Because it must me obvious why the majority of women don’t like there man to crossdress.

    You ask the question “What do YOU think the problem is?
    Some questions just don’t need an answer as they are to obvious for words In my opinion.

    All the best Freddy and allow for Suzy’s sense of humour.,


    SUZY
    Last edited by suzy1; 02-09-2013 at 04:39 AM.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Breeze's Avatar
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    From a GG perspective I have no problem with my husband dressing and I believe that people should be want they want to be as long as it isn't illegal of course. I have read your post several times and don't know if you really want a GG intruding with a response but what the heck I am doing it anyway (longest one I have done so far I might add)
    From a GG perspective:
    I can only speak from a female perspective and what my experience is as growing up. As a society GG's are conditioned to believe that we will meet our perfect man and settle down , get married have kids and go onto to grow old together etc.... We are bombarded from young with fairy tales of our handsome prince coming along to scoop us up and carry us off into the sunset and live happily after. These princes should be handsome and strong very manly with a chizzled jaw and very manly.
    As teenagers we are exposed to a wider social experience and where media continues to show us that we need to get a boyfriend and be slim, beautiful, wear certain clothes and then there is school which is another ball game girls talking about their dream guy,romance and generally doing it! Then as adults this continues and this is seen every where on TV, adverts, film, books, etc if we aren't married by a certain age then we are generally seen as having a problem and being a odd ball or confirmed spinster.
    As far a CD goes this is not part of the norm for us GG's we are taught by society and culture that a man should be a man and woman to be a woman. And for those that are out there that seeking their Mr right I think that CDers are challenging that. IMHO this conditioning is deeply rooted and ingrained into us from an early age. Also we are conditioned to believe that if a man dresses as a woman he is not manly and obviously not interested in woman which I know is a very naive and ignorant perspective but as individuals we are not to blame it is society and being conditioned from a young age that causes this to occur.
    Since finding out about my husbands CDing I have become a lot more educated about Cding in general,my initial response which was ignorant was to question his sexuality.
    CDing is not a threat to one his sexuality and two my femininity in fact it has made me more feminine once again.
    As we keep being told we live in a man's world where the majority of men hold positions of power. For many years now woman have been battling for equal rights in all walks of life, equal pay jobs, etc I might add now not speaking from my perspective but as a GG in general why would a man want to be a woman? As we are still seen on the whole as the weaker sex. Why would this ingrained image we have of a man man want to emulate a weaker woman?
    My husband says ' he likes woman that much he wants to emulate them and society on the whole doesn't seem to understand or know the difference between gender and sexuality.'
    I love my husband and all that he is and wish that more woman were open to the huge spectrum which is humanity rather that what we as women have been bought up to believe.

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    Have you ever watched a person give a presentation and they are so incredibly nervous, and you end up feeling nervous yourself? Have you ever witnessed a person act so confident that their confidence rubs off on you?

    I strongly believe that how others react to us will be determined by how we act ourselves. And I think that in some instances, our own feelings of embarrassment, guilt, nervousness when we dress in front of others comes across to others that we are doing something wrong. I've read numerous posts from cd's who talk about their growing confidence in presenting themselves en femme in public and how they are received in a positive light by others - be it shop employees/owners, people in bars, people walking by in the street. Some put this down to the idea that crossdressing is becoming more acceptable socially. There is I believe a certain degree of truth in that, but I do feel that the reason why they may feel that crossdressing is becoming more acceptable is because they are accepting it and confidently embracing it and displaying it themselves.

    I have many a time walked into a shop, dressed in male clothes and nervously browsed the feminine clothing on display. During such times, very rarely will a shop assistant/owner come up to me. Instead they keep their distance, perhaps hoping that I will quickly leave (or quickly buy something and leave), because I am actually making them feel uncomfortable. And in turn I sense that I am making them uncomfortable, which will make me feel even more uncomfortable, and thus I will retreat and leave. On many more occasions however, even while dressed in male clothes, it has felt (to me) like the most natural thing in the world for me to be doing (because it is natural to me), and during such times, a shop assistant/owner will come up to me and ask if I need any help. The last occasion, I was semi-dressed - bra with breast forms, female top, underneath my male coat, and I walked into a small independent shop. The owner came over, said hello, asked me if I would like a cup of tea and then asked me if I am on a mission or just browsing. I said a bit of both, as I flicked through a rack full of clothes slap bang in the centre of the shop. She asked if I had anything specific in mind, and my reply was perhaps a nice top, a lovely scarf, a coat, or all three. She then began to pull out numerous items for me to look at and one - a wool jacket with a fur collar immediately caught my eye. Without batting an eyelid, I asked if I could try it on. "Of course you can" was her reply, and she directed me towards the closest full length mirror. I took off my coat, revealing my feminine top and knowing that my breast forms would become obvious. And she did not flinch. I tried on the coat, and she went and got a few more items for me to try. One was a black wool shawl with a cowl neck, which I slipped on over my top and her response was incredibly complimentary. It did look great on me. A purchase was made. We talked for sometime, she asked me what kind of clothes I like, and for my telephone number, then said that she will look out for such outfits and call me. The overall sense of the occasion for both of us was that it was the most natural thing in the world.

    She accepted me, felt at ease around me, and while I was already confident, I could just feel my confidence increasing even more so. I eventually left, and as I walked outside, I sensed that my walk was much more confident, shoulders back, back completely straight, a stature that would obviously result in my breasts becoming more prominent underneath my coat, which now was not even buttoned up anyway. I walked passed another girl, who "clocked" me, and her reaction? She smiled at me and I smiled back. I was giving off an air of confidence that other people were immediately sensing, and as such other people, even if just fleetingly, were reacting accordingly. "That man has breasts", or "That man has a female top on" no doubt running through their minds, yet not one giggle, not one strange expression, not one reaction that make me feel as though I was doing something out of the ordinary. I like to think that the reason for that is because they got the sense, from me, that I was doing nothing out of the ordinary for me. And because I was so at ease, they had no reason not to be either.

    So I genuinely do believe that the majority of people, or more specifically in terms of this thread, GG's, will ultimately not have a problem with our crossdressing if we don't act as though we have a problem with it. If we act as though it's the most natural thing in the world, then others will pick up on that and have no reason not to think the same way. It doesn't matter if you pass or not, or even present yourself with the intention of passing. What matters is how we ourselves act and indeed react. If I meekly ask if I can come to the party dressed "that way", then the response may not be so positive. If I say loud and proud however "Your party, I will be wearing this and that", then the response may well be completely different altogether.
    Last edited by jenni_xx; 02-09-2013 at 05:50 AM.

  11. #11
    Junior Member VickiTheGamer's Avatar
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    In my opinion, I think because when you dress up your no longer a MAN nor will you ever be a man again to a GG. Oh, your still a male, but you are now less than a MAN.

    A MAN is a protector. His ways, his behavior, his demeanor gives a women an unrealized sense of protection.

    Think of it this way. First, lets say when you are NOT in CD mode, your as masculine as any other guy.
    So, your out on the town with your buds. It's you, a friend of yours (Male non-cd, non-feminine), and your Wife, (or GF, or some women you know) and the women already knows and is accepting to your CD ways. So, some possible danger is a head of you. A dangerous person. The women, in this case, is nervous and very possibly going to see your Male friend as the protector before seeing you as such.

    When a man dresses up, shares that interest, he has left the MAN behind and has joined womanhood. He is a Male, but he is no longer a MAN. He is now, somewhere in-between.

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    I feel like its quite a jump to assume GG,s may be able to understand what we are feeling when dressed unless they have been exposed to this lifestyle.In a way,we are asking that they drop all preconceived notions of gender' like"forget everything you've ever learned for a moment and check this out".It really seems like we are asking a GG to take a leap of faith and hold on a moment while we try to help them to understand why.Bottom line is,you need someone who cares enough about you to begin with to even consider doing that.

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    Hmm. Long post indeed. As you said Frédérique, there are GG's who come on this site who are supportive even if they don't have a Cd partner. In the case of women who can't accept their partner dressing (and my own SO is one of them) I'm sure there are many reasons. I have had clashes with GG friends in the past on a number of issues and what it often boils down to is an invasion of territory. Most GG's have experienced some wounding by men in their lives and many feel that men trying to look like or be women are trying to take away their identity and make it a male thing. They don't want to share when they feel that men have already taken a lot from them. Many of them already feel that it is male expectations that make women need to look like anorexic models or wear revealing clothes in order to be acceptable. It might be facile to state but most of the time when any of us lash out it comes from our own hurt.

    It still doesn't make it any easier for those of us who want to embrace our feminine element, to be soft and caring and supportive, emotional and empathising but maybe putting it all in perspective helps a little bit, or not xxx

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    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    Thursday night,I was at a LGBTQ welcoming committee meeting at my UU church.I represent the "T" and I think[at least openly]the "B"s as well.It was just 4 GGs and myself. We are comfortable talking things over. "You enjoy doing girl things,and we enjoy doing boy things.And we all here do both girl and boy things" was said to me by one of the women."You look really nice tonight..love that outfit" said another. "And just three hours ago,I was standing on my head in a corner of the boat grinding a weld down" And so it goes,without getting into a deep explanation of "why?" that so many people seem to be looking for.
    It SURE is my hair ! I have the receipt and the box it came in !

  15. #15
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    Good discussion Frédérique.

    I think what it comes down to is that women are allowed to blur gender roles but men largely aren't. This seems to be most apparent in their choice of partners.
    “Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow.”

    Mary Anne Radmacher

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    A lot of them are jealous and selfish and don't want to share their power, that being beautiful sexy curvy bodies and the beautiful form fitting clothing and makeup, hair, etc. that makes them so desirable to men and the envy of less blessed women. It looks like some would appreciate a CD wanting to come over to their side and be like them and relate to them, the softer less agressive world that men have to live in. Some of the above threads are right on, women are raised to believe ALL men should be rough, tough and manley and that had better not change, if it does you will see a side of me you won't like, in other words you were born a man, I married one and there's no changing the contract now, so get those panties off and put the boxers back on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    I’m appreciative of GG’s who genuinely like (or accept) what we do, but most of the time I feel like we are under attack from those we are trying to emulate. What do YOU think the problem is?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
    i actually read it all. Can't say that I am better for it. Mostly, I completely disagree with the whole tenant but more specifically with the quoted item above. I have never felt under attack by women. Perhaps you are confusing a natural question, "Why" with some deep seeded issue. The women here are not "jealous" that we are demeaning their womanhood, they are confused! And why wouldn't they be?

  18. #18
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    Freddy, as always your post is thoughtful and articulate. Long, yes, but I would have it no other way because of the quality of its composition. Your elegant writing always makes me consider things that I haven't before, and it is a pleasure. It had not really occurred to me that GGs might feel threatened by CDing. It makes sense though, and I think the reason some GGs feel threatened is the same reason that so many men feel threatened.

    "Cross dressing" (and I have really come to dislike the term) challenges the old notions of binary gender roles. Men are strong, protective, emotionless, while women are soft and caring, blah blah blah. While many exist who do fit these stereotypes, either by cultural conditioning or honest expression, the stereotypes, as you well know, are not all-inclusive. For example, I wish to present myself as soft, empathetic and gentle, not because I am trying to fit a stereotype, but because that is what I feel on the inside. I am not trying to divest myself of male expectations - I have been like this since before I knew about such things. Does this mean I want to be a stereotypical woman (I do, after all, wish for a female body)? Not in the slightest - the stereotypes are meaningless to me. I can only be myself. I should also mention that some things I do are also more associated with men than women - my chosen career path, preference for dark beers, my nerdiness on certain subjects, whatever. There are plenty of women and plenty of men who like all the things I like, and so the stereotypes fall away into oblivion when you look at them closely.

    Anyway, if a man sees one of us gender-benders in public, he may lash out by calling names, using violence, etc., trying desperately (if unconsciously) to reinforce the gender roles. He hasn't considered that men do not have to be burly and cold-hearted like himself, and he feels threatened. There is nothing as frightful to a "tough guy" as someone who is confident in their softness, which of course he sees as weakness. Similarly, a woman may feel threatened because we are intruding into what they believe is their territory. People hold their stereotypes so dearly because they have tried so hard to fit them. Rather like one of us MtF dressers or transsexuals trying to squeeze ourselves into a dress that's way too small.
    Peace and love, - Christy

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GroovyChristy View Post
    "Cross dressing" (and I have really come to dislike the term) challenges the old notions of binary gender roles. Men are strong, protective, emotionless, while women are soft and caring, blah blah blah. ... For example, I wish to present myself as soft, empathetic and gentle, not because I am trying to fit a stereotype, but because that is what I feel on the inside.
    [SIZE="3"]First, crossdressing does not challenge the gender binary, it reinforces it. And second, nothing you claim you want (soft, caring, etc.) requires you to crossdress. If you really wanted to challenge the gender binary you would act as you say you want to while being dressed a man.

    I'm happy the GGs are here and believe their contributions make this a much better forum in every possible way. It crossdressers here are uncomfortable with GG questions they should probably spend more time looking inward.[/SIZE]

  20. #20
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    I am intrigued by the comments regarding at first the physical length of the OPs expression. Personally, I would much rather have a chance to delve into the pysche of the person as they express themselves as the expected 'Cliff Notes' post version simply cannot follow the train of thought and depth of the questioning and examination given the subject by the OP.

  21. #21
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    Frédérique,
    Most of us here do not have the attention span of the Golden Gate bridge in SF, or Forth road bridge in Scotland.
    More like the span of a clothes line for most I think.
    Get to the point quickly and it would be better.
    Unfortunately for us girls like men and not too many like half and half.
    I will catch you on the next thought provoking round.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

  22. #22
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    Maybe it's just a case of personal preference for the most part? IMO most GG's probably couldn't care less if you cross dress as long as its not in their backyard. I have read many of these "acceptance" type threads and the theme of many of them seem to be that if a woman doesn't accept cross dressing ... SHE is somehow remiss. Take the case of a CD who's SO cross dresses.. The general consensus seems to be that she needs to be "educated", she' some kind of phobe , she's not being fair.
    You have the right to express yourself, but you don't afford her the same right. You can't change how you are or how you feel, but she damn well better because if not.... she's not being fair.
    Last edited by kellycan27; 02-09-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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  23. #23
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    Although a very long post....maybe you should ask us why we want to be on this forum. Yes it is different and sometimes confusing but acceptance should be across the board.
    I appreciate the differences and similarities that we share.
    I as a GG find it helpful and insightful. It helps me better understand my SO and love him all the more. So in order for us GGs to accept we have to feel a part of your world.
    Wish you the best.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]----Live....Laugh....Love------SO of Cassandra Lynn.

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    I sure find it "fascinating" that at a Forum where most participants involved want nothing more than to be able to "express themselves" freely, so many would respond to an OP chiefly to complain about the length of the OP.

    What is the point in that?????????????????????

    When I look at Forum Qs I see tons of questions that might only be 8 or 10 lines just begging for answers.

    It must be awful not to be able to spend 2 or 3 minutes reading something but willing to take the time to complain about it?

  25. #25
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Denver
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    11,799
    Just a quick warning, do not make this an "Us" against "them" thread.
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
    Chief Joseph
    Nez Perce



    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

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