Why do GG’s have a problem with US?

[jenni_xx]

For what it's worth (and I've seen a few people comment on the length of your posts), I value such thought-provoking posts, and whenever someone puts effort in to write such posts I will always read them in their entirety. The reason why is because no matter how long (and I am guilty of long posts myself), I value the input of others, and when they do go to a lot of effort in writing long posts, it would simply be rude not to read.

That said, one thing does make me wonder. When such effort has gone into writing such thought-provoking posts, rarely do we see the originator of such posts engage as willingly in the replies that others provide to said post and subsequent discussion that their original post has resulted in. Why is that? Is it because the original poster isn't able to get on here as often as others (which would be a completely acceptable response (and one I hope Freddy responds with)). Or is it because what matters to them is just putting their own thoughts "out there", and the response to such thoughts don't really matter that much to them to result in spending as much time replying as they did writing their post in the first case.

I like your posts Freddy, but as yet, despite commenting on a few of them, I've never had a reply from you in regards to what I have written.

[jenni_xx]

Is that what it's all about - finding a winner?

[suzy1]

Is that what it's all about - finding a winner?

I think what she ment was it was a very good post that’s all Jenni!

And I happen to agree with Casandra and sent a PM to Breeze to say so.

[Ann Louise]

In your dreams Vicki. Some of us girls here you would definitely not want to offend in a dark alley, heels on or not . May I suggest that you extend the information-gathering stage of your personal journey a bit more before you make statements you clearly have no basis to be making?

[CassandraSmith]

Is that what it's all about - finding a winner?

Well no, it's about dialog and I appreciate that there are different views on this. But this certainly is the cream of the posts!

Now if it would just go straight to my hips ;-)

This is regarding my deleted post that said "We have a winner!" to Breeze's wonderful explanation of GG indoctrination.

[Foxglove]

However, it seems to be much easier for everyone to understand why a girl (by birth) would wish to be a boy (or at least look like one) than it is to understand why a boy would wish to be a girl.

Maybe it seems so, but it may not actually be so. Talk to the FTM's and see if people find it easy to understand why a girl would want to be a boy.

GG’s seem to have a BIG problem with this relatively innocent exercise of boys wearing their clothes for pleasure, and I wonder why that is?

You've partly answered your own question:

She needs a HE, but he would rather be a she himself. Where does this leave the GG?

It leaves her with a husband who's physically repulsive to her. Remember recently when someone posted photos of gorgeous women with beards and hairy chests? I don't think it's so hard to understand why a woman might not be thrilled about the idea of her husband trying to look feminine.

I understand, but please let the boys wear their girl clothes. I could try to explain why the latter takes place, wasting my time in the process, but why bother?

Because then you spread understanding. Cispeople gain a bit of insight into transpeople. That's what we want, isn't it?

A few cispeople have asked me why I'm doing why I'm doing, and I've explained the basics of TGism to them--while informing them at the same time that as things stand now, ultimately we can't explain TGism. I've never lost any respect by explaining to cispeople what I can about TGism.

We need to understand, Freddy, that cispeople aren't naturally equipped to understand us. Our experience is outside theirs. Why would a boy want to be or look like a girl? Why would a girl want to be or look like a boy? They don't understand such feelings because they don't have them themselves. So why not help them out a bit?

By the way, Freddy, if you want to CD, it is OK.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Mikkigurll]

Get back on subject. If you have issues with the length of the post PM the poster. Also quit sniping at other members here. Take it to PM. Otherwise, this thread will be toast

Thank You, Lorileah. At last, some sense!

[Keri L]

For me, I think the jury is still out on this one. I am going out with my wife en femme for the first time this Wednesday, along with another girl and her SO. So, for two of us CDers, at least, the GGs in our lives are giving it their best shot to be accepting and understanding.

I still have to post about my first time out to a non-TG bar last weekend, maybe after that, I can supplement these comments with how our night on Wednesday went. I also probably need to do it on a proper keyboard, as these tablets are horrible to type on for any length of time!

Cate

[michelle64]

Why do some GG's have a problem with us?.....because some of us care more about ourself then the GG we are with...its not always about us and sadly some CD's just cannot figure that out...must be low information voter types, my theory at least....

[darla_g]

Just as a constructive comment, the choice of font and especially the size make the posting very hard to read.

As for the topic, it is a valid question although I too disagree with some of the premises made. My response speaking only for myself (but describing things that GGs in my life have told me) is that the primary reason is lack of understanding of CDing in general. I too had encountered the standard questions that only come from very basic misconceptions out there.

• I am NOT gay
• I don't want to become a woman
• I don't need to do this all the time

[AllieSF]

"“Really? You actually want to do THAT? Give ME a break!” It (MtF) just doesn’t jibe with their “take” on reality, a reality that is conformist and non-negotiable. They take their role so seriously that our little experiments in gender-bending are unappreciated, suspect, or worse."

Freddy, with this statement I think that you have also described a majority of non-CDing males when they encounter us in either the media, in a conversation about us, or in a real life encounter. They have a hard time understanding why a male would want to do that. Also, as Kelli said above, people can probably tolerate and even accept someone else crossdressing, but do have a hard time accepting that their own spouse likes to do this. We are still in a minority in life, and most people have difficulties getting their mind around anyone who goes out of the generally accepted norm and life experiences that they are already comfortable with.

[Rachel Morley]

You ask the question: “What do YOU think the problem is?" Some questions just don’t need an answer as they are too obvious for words In my opinion.

After reading the OP's whole post, what Suzy wrote above is exactly what I was thinking. If you want the specifics ... read Breeze's post.

[docrobbysherry]

First off, I proclaim it a tie between the OP and Cassie. As I couldn't finish either post! However, I've very much enjoyed the ones I've read.

I do NOT believe there can be too much written about the interchange of ideas on, or between dressers and GGs. Because most of us r straight and our relationships r complicated enuff without dressing issues! The more that's written, the more readers will find answers and understanding of their particular couple's issues!

[Julie Gaum]

Fantastic --- really enjoyed the OP and the large number of thoughtful answers. If I liken the OP to reading "War and Peace" a few posters will get mad at me but not intended to be unkind. In today's world most people, if they still read a newspaper or an Internet newscast are headline readers; most will only sit still long enough for sound bites (or in computerland is it a short string of bytes?). Our TV networks are governed in their presentations to short attention spans. How does all this relate? Only that many posters were able to provide brief but complete answers, others covered more of Freddy's fears and worries (and maybe paranoia?) while a few were not accustomed to following deep and sometimes straying thinking so they, understandably, gave up. Other than personally appreciating the give and take on the subject matter that Freddy presented, the above thread is a very small example of why we have politicians catering to short-sound-bite masses; government policies swayed by voters who don't bother knowing what's happening in the world today and probably why our educational world ranking has sunk so low.
I did stray too but it was fun.
Julie

[Debglam]

The forum ought to start charging by the word!

The reality for some of us is that we love GG's, are friends with GG's, wish we were born GG's , interact with GG's as both men and women, etc. Basically, my reality involves GG's and I have no desire to hide from them or their honest opinions. If we are talking about CD.com, then there is the private GM section that is a "boy's only club." I think there is a reason that this section and the other private sections see much less traffic than the open ones and that reason is that most of us do like to mix it up with GG's, MTF's, and transitioned/transitioning women. This is my real life and I have no desire to hide.

[Tamara Croft]

It must be awful not to be able to spend 2 or 3 minutes reading something but willing to take the time to complain about it?

I did read it all, though not responded, because I have no answer to it. However, this I have an answer to lol, you'd be amazed at what people complain about on this board, even having to scroll further down to section because it's been moved, so complaining about the length of ones post is not that unusual. I think personally, it's not the length of the post, it's the font, it makes it hard to read. For those who are a bit older, wearing glasses etc, they won't read it, it would hurt their eyes. I suffer enough because of colour dyslexia, and then the font is bad on top of that.

It is a good post Freddy, but you might want to think about changing the font to something people will read, not because it looks pretty

[busker]

Breeze, men are conditioned as well. you have to big, strong, hit home runs when your the capt of the bb team, etc.. Failure in the manly arts for many children of macho fathers is a punishable offense. But, I think that "men really like women and want to emulate them" is really something that can be said, sounds like it could be true, but I rather doubt that it is the one and true answer. It helps explain the unexplainable. I firmly believe that what we have is some sort of hybrid brain that has female aspects and the desire to dress is a result of incomplete chemical transformation that the male brain goes through. How else to explain a world-wide mostly male activity? Either that or we are a percentage of nut cases around the world.
Without science to provide some better answers, we just have to exist, explain the best we can and let it go at that. It doesn't mean a guy isn't regular in every other way, but society as a whole, can be extremely rigid, even though people within that group can be more flexible.You are certainly an fine example of an accepting person.

[Alice Torn]

Freddy, Great deep thread! Busker i agree with what you wrote. Women are now free to do just about anything they want now, and it is good, but, men are in double binds, and socially hamstrung yet.

[ReineD]

[SIZE="3"]I’m appreciative of GG’s who genuinely like (or accept) what we do, but most of the time I feel like we are under attack from those we are trying to emulate. What do YOU think the problem is?[/SIZE]

One answer is, there are many men AND women worldwide who feel it is wrong for anyone to engage in cross-gender behavior (and also for either sex to be same-sex attracted). It may well be, at a primitive level, an attempt to protect the survival of the species. It would be interesting to study this phenomena.

Another answer that applies to some of the people who have joined here, is that the wife feels betrayed for having been lied to. This alone introduces the crossdressing in a negative light, else why would her husband have lied to her? She needs time to catch up to his understanding of it, in addition to rebuilding the trust in their marriage. This does not happen overnight and she is in her full right to not be kicking her heels up in glee when she first joins here.

Another explanation for wives who are adamantly against this is from Michelle64, and I quote:

Why do some GG's have a problem with us?.....because some of us care more about ourself then the GG we are with...its not always about us and sadly some CD's just cannot figure that out...

Also Freddy, I agree with the others. Your font is too small, even when I wear my reading glasses. When I zoom in enough to read your posts comfortably, I have a limited view of all the other posts.

================================================

I'd like to respond to some of the others, who believe that we feel threatened or are jealous:

I know of women who See's a TS,CD or a drag queen as competition. they do not want the competition. the TS,CD or a drag queen goes to more effort to impress and look there best.

Most GG's have experienced some wounding by men in their lives and many feel that men trying to look like or be women are trying to take away their identity and make it a male thing. They don't want to share when they feel that men have already taken a lot from them.

A lot of them are jealous and selfish and don't want to share their power, that being beautiful sexy curvy bodies and the beautiful form fitting clothing and makeup, hair, etc. that makes them so desirable to men and the envy of less blessed women.

Similarly, a woman may feel threatened because we are intruding into what they believe is their territory.

I'm sorry, but you are all terribly mistaken. You would be in your full right to tell me that I cannot know what it feels like to be a crossdresser. Likewise, I am telling you that you have absolutely NIL understanding of why some of the wives and girlfriends object (those who do - many are supportive). And almost every woman that I know doesn't give two hoots if a guy that she doesn't know crossdresses. Or, she may think that he is a novelty and be mildly interested as to why he would want to do this. She may even marvel at his skill, if he is good at it. But at least she will be more accepting or tolerant than your average guy!

At any rate, how can wives and girlfriends feel "threatened" when we know what our bodies can do compared to yours? I think it is the reverse - it is some of the CDers who perhaps would love nothing more than to have GGs jealous of them, as if this somehow might feed into their fantasies of being the beautiful women they wish to be, or perhaps being more "womanly" than any birth GG?

You never hear a TS say that GGs are jealous or feel threatened, or are selfish. In fact, TSs have realistic views of how birth women feel, since they feel the same way! I do not see TSs and birth women as competition, they are my sisters. And crossdressers cannot be competition because they are not women.

You must all think that GGs as a whole are hopelessly petty and have not matured past the middle school years. I would expect more from individuals who seek to emulate women and who claim to understand us more than the average male.

[busker]

Frédérique, it could be as simple as plain old homophobia. a guy--who now becomes less of a man by crosss dressing--dressing as a woman might appear to be a lesbian to some women and get the kind of response that CDs get. . The other thing is that when one looks at the "perverts" of the world, they are generally men who make the news. CD being considered in general a perversion--and not an activity for stress relief--is going to take the big hit. We may just be looking too hard for complex answers when a simple one will do. When there are too many ifs, ands, and buts, the answer is not likely going to explain a common activity.

[GroovyChristy]

Reine, I hope you don't think I claim to know that my suggestion is correct. It is just that, a suggestion. I think it is possible that some people feel threatened by gender-variance because it challenges their binary roles which they have become so steeped in. Yes, I know all too well that a woman doesn't need to feel threatened by me, not in the sense that I am more womanly than she is, that really would be an absurd suggestion. She has a real, female body, something I can only dream of. It is I who feels inadequate and outdone.

What I meant was that gender-variance (using this as an all-inclusive term for CDing, TS, etc.) might unnerve some people because it opens the possibility that they don't have to fit into those roles. They're afraid that exploring, deviating from the norm, could actually feel good. Like when some men are ashamed when they cry, not only because of the perceived weakness of shedding tears, but the discovery that it feels good to release your emotion in such a way. I hope that makes sense. I don't claim to be very articulate, and much less so when it is late at night.

[max]

“We don’t want to be persecuted or discriminated against or killed or cured or analyzed or explained or tolerated or understood: we want to be desired.”

- Néstor Perlongher

There are male admirers who specifically desire gender variant people; where are the female admirers who specifically desire gender variant people?

[Frédérique]

Frederique your killin me....... I passed out 3 times reading your post.

[SIZE="2"]Smelling salts!!! I always know I'm on the right track when people complain about length. Thanks for reading it...[/SIZE]

Are you criticising the women that frequent this forum? [I speed read the thread as I am not getting any younger] I have recently had some discussions with one or two GG’s on this forum and it’s been a pleasure to talk to them. They have been so nice and supportive.

[SIZE="2"]If you would slow down a bit, you will find that I alluded to the nice and supportive GG’s you are referring to in the OP, not once but twice. I’ve had much pleasant give-and-take with women, both here and in the real world, so my goal is NOT to criticize anyone. However, the reluctance of certain GG’s to accept MtF crossdressing, leading us to gather together, as we are, largely away from the prying eyes of society, contemplating our “fate,” happens to be the topic of discussion at hand...[/SIZE]

The women here are not "jealous" that we are demeaning their womanhood, they are confused! And why wouldn't they be?

[SIZE="2"]My point exactly. One reason why I don’t go forth without a care, wading into the real world at large, is that I have no desire to ADD to that confusion. Women certainly have a lot to deal with, and (get this) I RESPECT that...[/SIZE]

Get to the point quickly and it would be better.

[SIZE="2"]One reason why my thread OP’s are so long is the fact that I have to think about all the different types of people who may be reading it. If I just wrote, “What’s the problem with GG’s?” I would be rightfully assailed from all sides, and true discussion would be impossible. From my perspective, the “point,” in this instance, cannot be gotten to easily – I’m referring to the ingrained, generational, instinctive revulsion, confusion, or bewilderment that GG’s feel when MtF crossdressing crops up in their midst. Can this be stated in a few well-chosen words meant to illicit intelligent response? I think not...

Either make the effort to read the thing, or go find something more akin to your tastes, whatever they may be. There’s plenty of room here for meaningful discussion, as opposed to hit-and-run posting, and some people like to try their hand at the former despite the obstacles...[/SIZE]

It may well be, at a primitive level, an attempt to protect the survival of the species. It would be interesting to study this phenomena.

[SIZE="2"]Yes, this is what I was trying to get at in the OP, hoping someone would think about the bigger picture. I really believe (duh) that women keep civilization afloat, so they are like sentinels, each imbued with her own sense of propriety – this is a GOOD thing, and I have no wish to challenge it with my gender-bending dressing exercises. It’ll never be an “US vs. THEM” scenario, in my mind, because that is not only counter-productive, but self-destructive as well...

PS – I believe you, Reine...[/SIZE]

I like your posts Freddy, but as yet, despite commenting on a few of them, I've never had a reply from you in regards to what I have written.

[SIZE="2"]I apologize. I’m WAY behind in my responding...[/SIZE]

[GroovyChristy]

[SIZE="3"]First, crossdressing does not challenge the gender binary, it reinforces it. And second, nothing you claim you want (soft, caring, etc.) requires you to crossdress. If you really wanted to challenge the gender binary you would act as you say you want to while being dressed a man.

I'm happy the GGs are here and believe their contributions make this a much better forum in every possible way. It crossdressers here are uncomfortable with GG questions they should probably spend more time looking inward.[/SIZE]

Taylor, I'm afraid I must stand by what I said and respectfully disagree. It challenges the binary because it shows that rigid gender roles do not apply to everyone. I am not trying to not be manly, nor am I necessarily trying to be womanly. I am simply trying to be me, and that usually translates to womanly by society's standards. And about your second point: yes, I know I don't have to wear women's clothing. I do act as I want while dressed in men's clothing. In fact, I like most of my men's clothing. I am not actively trying to challenge the gender binary for its own sake, that is incidental. I don't like women's clothing because it's not meant for males. I'm not trying to be a rebel. At any rate I certainly don't feel like a rebel. I like women's clothing because it appeals to my taste and is suited to expressing my self-image.

[KellyJameson]

Nature has created men to be creators of beauty because it is in their sexuality to possess beauty. Beauty is male sexuality, the two things are synonymous. They may be separated but still they are always intertwined.

Beauty is an abstract and subjective experience always found in the perfection of form.

A face, a word ,the perfect note all in the search for the experience of beauty perfection.

Perhaps the female has become ugly in her masculinity so the male creates feminine beauty in himself to replace what has been lost from the world.

It is not so much that female physical beauty has been lost but the inner vessel has been corrupted and the hardness inside has destroyed the softness outside making it appear false, manipulative and brittle.

It does not surprise me that men run from their wives and into crossdressing.

A man wants beauty inward and outward, not a shrew incased in armament making war on men for crimes they have not commited.

Moral perfection is very beautiful and the illusion that women hold it has been lost.