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Thread: Don't Be One

  1. #1
    CamilleLeon's SO Shananigans's Avatar
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    Don't Be One

    I feel as though the issue of whether women CD or not has been hammered out to death on this forum. (This is concerning GGs who buy things like jeans...not FTMs). So, needless to say, we're all pretty split on this issue. (Well, "split" if you discredit how the GGs feel on the issue...where it seems like all of us feel like we aren't crossdressing). So, since we are all "split," I propose a different discussion.

    I have sympathy for men that feel like the men's department is a bit creatively challenged. I more or less agree that it sucks, but I never quite understood why the solution for this problem was to lament/finger point at GGs. After all, most of us aren't designing your clothes...or, even shopping in your department. I never quite understood the purpose of how this particular method of retribution would accomplish anything for the men in question. But, I do understand basic economics...and, so I wanted to propose a different method to those who just feel as though they are lacking in wardrobe variety...

    The first argument is that women CD all of the time and it's downright sexist for men not to be allowed to CD. In my experience in the humble state of Alabama, our culture is becoming politically correct to almost a state of fear in offending anyone...it seems as though there are quite a number of court cases being fought and won on the basis that people should be allowed to be who they want to be. Most people I know wouldn't dare say a word to someone's face that would marginalized them...but, everyone seems to despise everyone once enough people are out of ear shot. But, this is how changes in culture have been made. Women wanted to be seen as equal and not as property/sex objects, so we changed our garb to be taken seriously. It was quite a scandal at the time, and many women had very unfair things said about them...but, they kept on...and, eventually won the right to not have to wear a skirt or hide their ankles without hearing a chorus of clicking tongues in the background. It happened so long ago that nearly all women in modern nations do not even question slacks. It's almost quite confusing when you get an angry male in a skirt (and, sometimes prosthetics) yelling at you that you TOO are crossdressing if you wear pants. I often find myself asking, "We'll, what do you want us to do about it?" And, most women have other wars to fight, so we leave it up for you all to figure out...until it comes up again, I suppose.

    It seems quite obvious, but hiding behind a computer and ranting to other crossdressers isn't going to cause much of a cultural change. Everyone else has historically put the problem in the face of the community. The transsexual community is doing a phenomenal job at spreading the message of what it means to feel transgendered...but, it seems like most CDs have stayed firmly in the closet.

    What is worse is that there is the argument to change male fashion, but most here buy female-targeted clothing items quietly and only make the passing snide remarks to GGs (who again usually have very little to do with your fashion industry).

    So, if I were a clothing designer (or clothing store), I would see business is booming for female fashion. Should I worry much about the MTF TS population?...Heck no, they're identified female anyway...Why fix what's not broken? Maybe I'm aware that there are men that would want more female oriented designs in the male department... Turns out the fashion industry tried to make a splash/turn some heads with female-designed clothing that was marketed to men, but it failed epically. The only conclusion to be made goes back to economic of supply and demand...it's apparently not that big of deal to most men. Or, so it seems...

    It has been said that most men will try "crossdressing" at some point in their life (where my psychology textbook came up with this survey, I have no idea). So, one would think there would be quite the market for female-designed clothes in the men's department. But, if no one is going out there and demanding it, how will there be change?

    It's a hard one...and, at the end of the day, fussing at rather confused GGs is much easier. However, I would like to ask how I (and other GGs) are holding you back in your fashion adventures? On a scale of 1 to 10, how effective is it to just point a finger (or, in most cases, an anonymous Internet post) at GGs while insisting that we are also crossdressers? From my observations, a negative opinion is actually given to the CDing community, because most people don't take kindly to accusations that they feel are unfounded.

    So, for those in knots at the lack of femininity in men's clothing, I wold like to ask what you personally plan on doing to rectify this situation. I can only hope that the plan does not begin and end with anonymous posts about how marginalized you are, or how women are equally guilty.

    And, furthermore, how effective is such argument in this society? The real issue is that something culturally changed in how women dress many, many, many years ago...it was quite the scandal back in the day...but, does a valid social opinion really exist if most people have moved past it? Was it incorrect to have moved past it, or is it incorrect to have an archaic view on society's operations? I was also wondering how much of an impact passive movements have had in the past...can anyone recall a movement that changed history, but only required one group passively bemoaning at another? Is it the job of the group being accused (in this case GGs) to fight your own battles? I just ask because most political stances that I support generally just ask me to join their cause...they usually explain their stance to me in a way that doesn't pass off their problems on someone else.

    I think a novel challenge for people who feel this way to become seen. If you aren't the type for active change, perhaps you can just show public support for those who do want the change. (This does require more than anonymous Internet posts of encouragement). And, though I could care less what is in the men's department, I show you my support...I make it a point to bring up TG topics to my social groups. So, tell me (and everyone else who wants you to wear what you want to wear) what we can do to help this change for you. And, I do hope your solution doesn't involve GGs to come out of the closet as CDs. (I almost feel that to do something like that is quite insulting for many who feel their CDing is a unique part if their personality).

    So, that's it. I know I would be hoping in vain for there to be an extinction of posts looking for validation from other CDs that GGs are all CDs in disguise. But, I do hope that the ball gets rolling on constructive ideas that might actually lead to things that we could do to help make the community of males that desire feminine fashion to readily available/marketed to males more visible. If parts of the above post seem tongue-in-cheek, it's because they are...but, I do sincerely want you to get what you want...but, I also believe (and, I think most of you know it deep down) that you're going about things entirely the wrong way.

    There is a running joke in my family where we tell each other not to "be one" when we are traveling...essentially, when we catch ourselves acting like a typical, idiot tourist, we give the accused a firm (but playful) expression and we say, "I just want you to know...you're being one." But, oddly enough, this phrase seemed to filter over into other parts of our life when we started acting like kind of an asshole.

    And, with that I also pose the challenge that you don't be one...don't be That CD...*insert visual of angry CD in a skirt pointing at a confused GG in jeans and telling her that you are one and the same* Did it really move you toward what you want? Or, were you just guilty of being one?

    I guess I'll end on that note.
    Last edited by Shananigans; 02-21-2013 at 05:47 PM.
    "Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
    “What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck

  2. #2
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    I agree 100% with you. I really only see certain types of MtF CD's complaining, actually to me it is whining, and referencing the female crossdresser who isn't cross dressing. One type likes to dwell on their definition or a hard definition of the word crossdressing. They will argue till blue in their face that women are crossdressing when wearing traditional men's clothes and when on a more borderline moment when that sexy women gets out of bed at her boy friend's house and puts on one of his shirts to parade around his house as he makes that romantic after morning sex breakfast for her. I see those mostly in advertisements! Let them argue their semantics and still miss the big picture.

    The other group, l the really believe are the main whining types, are just looking for justifications to mask their own lack of confidence and courage to take those first steps out of the house into the real world and just be themselves and live with what happens, which in 99% of the time maybe at worst stares, giggles and that occasional cat call or derogatory remark. I see a lot of these as being newbies to this site and maybe even to the world of CDing. Hopefully, they will learn that if they take the matter into their own hands that they can actually make a difference and get out there and enjoy themselves. I appreciate that it is not easy to go against the mainstream beliefs and practices, but it actually is not that difficult to swim against the current when crossdressing. By not being themselves I think that they lose a lot of fun and enriching opportunities, and they let themselves fall into that age old trap of blaming others for their own shortcomings, and in this case it is a lack of courage and ability to admit their own fears of looking so different from all the other males in male clothing out their.

  3. #3
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    The NIMBY attitude is very firmly entrenched here. Many people want the "freedom" to go out "dressed" and not be "bothered by Society" but claim they will wait till the "coast is clear" maybe someday in the future.

    The FACT is that the coast is clear right now for anyone with the least little bit of chutzpah.

    "We have met the enemy and they is us".

  4. #4
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    The suggestion that women wearing slacks, pants, or jeans are CDing is a silly rationalization....at best a false equivalency. Like it or not, many...dare I suggest most CDrs wear women's clothes because its women's clothing, not for the texture, fit or style. If one hasn't attained a certain level of self acceptance, it's more comfortable emotionally to insist that it's a fashion preference rather than a gender identification.

  5. #5
    CamilleLeon's SO Shananigans's Avatar
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    Allie, I'm glad you brought up missed opportunities. My SO was extremely self conscious and closeted when we first met...it took a lot of guts for him to go out fully dressed. He's now "completely out." I use the " " because it's not like we really just walk around randomly announcing, "Haaaaaave you met Ryan? By the way, he's a CD." But, if something related comes up, we take the opportunity to inform people that's he's a CD. For example, one of my friends was joking with me that Ryan would have to start wearing my clothes if I didn't get rid of my old clothes/make space in my closet. I laughed and said, "Too late!" My friend kind of laughed/was confused...so, I said, "Oh, I thought you knew that Ryan is a CD" At this point, my friend just didn't believe me (I have a habit of exploiting gullible people)...so, I called Ryan over and said, "I was just telling Andrew that you were a CD." (My SO is used to my blunt behavior after 4 years). And, so he said, "Yep, it's true...I thought you saw me at the Halloween party." Andrew countered he thought it was just for Halloween....and, so I said, "Really? He did it that well and you thought it was just for Halloween? Or, that he goes as some random famous chick Every Halloween?" (I know...he may be a CD, but he just can't think out of the box...famous chick every year lol jk) So, our friend was a little interested...asked questions. Ryan gave the good ol' "I guess I just like to wear women's clothes." (Of course, that's really not his whole story...but, it is for some people...so they say). Either way, it was put out there and a lot of people in our lives now know someone personally who is influenced by these issues.

    Now, I will admit that my SO and I have been paranoid at times going out..,worried about violence. Well, really, I'm the worried one...but, my SO was able to actually consider that people might be violent over such things...I think being raised male gives a bit of an "it wouldn't happen to me" mindset at times. It seems like me and my friends are perpetually on "rape alert"...as if every male on the street is just one flip out away from raping and pillaging. (It's actually really sad that we're taught this, but I actually have been pretty thankful of it in the past). But, the point is that we were also scared...we still are...but, we put ourselves out there. And, with doing that, we have had nothing but positive experiences...any negative experience that we have had remotely related to CDing has been from within ourselves...our community has been nothing but supportive. And, if we can get this in the middle of Alabama, I think it can be accomplished almost anywhere.
    "Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
    “What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck

  6. #6
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    Honestly, if you guys canto out in Bama, there is hope almost everywhere. I've been out here in Houston many times, but we are quite cosmopolitan by TX standards. But I've also been out in a north Texas city known for doing bad things to gay and trans people. Nothing bad so far.

    And thanks for the Steinbeck quote! I haven't read East of Eden in decades! Guess I need to revisit it!

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    I think this is a silly argument and POV. For whatever reason, jeans and a shirt aren't particularly tied to a gender. A woman in a male business suit would still look sorta odd. She'd need to be pretty terrific looking to pull the look off anyway, which is why not many women buy them.

    Women have a lot more freedom to express themselves in clothing. Life isn't fair, people need to get past the expectation that it ever will be. There are puh-lenty of situations where males have an advantage socially. This one works against us, thems the breaks.

    BTW the bar on this has moved a lot, it is not unusual to see guys wear stuff now that would'be been shocking when I was young. Pierced ears are but one small example.

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    Silver Member darla_g's Avatar
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    Its always a weak argument to use the point that they can do it without comment why can't we? We have no spokesman and certainly no positive role models out in the public eye.

  9. #9
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Maybe if all the crossdressing women who are jealous of how a man looks in a dress would stand up and....OK I can't even say that without laughing.

    Shannan, there was a time, long long ago where fashions was very androgynous. Where men and women both wore tight slacks (with no back pockets that made my rear look really...I digress), bright shirts in florals and soft fabrics and shoes with stacked 2" heels. That world crumbled when one day men said "Hey! you look like a girl in that flammable rayon shirt!" and being hurt deeply and afraid that they would no longer be able to father children, the men went back to their bland every day existence. It was the exact thing you are talking about. Money talks. Men quit buying those clothes for fear of having their sexual preference challenged and started buying pants three times too big so that when they were 40 they could state "I wear the same waist size I did in high school".

    But some went without fear. Some continued in silence and "underdressing" to wear the sot silky fabrics. Many more though chose to hide and rant about about how life was so unfair. They had the chance. It took women almost 50 years to get clothing that was functional for the day to day life. They didn't have the internet to use to rant towards the world. They just did it. Men tried for 5-10 years then said "this is hard".
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    Member JackieInPA's Avatar
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    I think a big problem here is the fact that women can NOW wear pants/shorts/skirts whatever they want, but many people who make this argument fail to realize that women had to FIGHT for the ability to do so without social stigma, like we are doing now. Their battle just came earlier in history. Most societies have had 60or 70 years to come to terms with women not being forced to wear nothing but skirts/dresses. People now see the fruits of their labor but have forgotten that labor. Just in the last century have women fought their way up the societal ladder from being thought of as nothing more than breeders and servants to men, and actually still have some ways to go.

    Part of what we need to do is not to tear women down...but to build them up. We need to truly as a society embrace the concept that men and women are equals. Until this happens men doing anything 'womanly' will be looked at as demeaning themselves, and worthy of ridicule.

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    Member tiffanyjo89's Avatar
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    You are correct on this...women fought to have ways changed so they could wear shorter skirts and dresses and pants. Women did movements to get culture changed.

    Now, there are women who actually crossdress, but most aren't noticed. There are some women who, at least around the house, will wear a men's dept stocked pair of sweats or boxers, and how many girls do you see in band shirts? Most of them are "unisex" (read, guy's t-shirt sold as unisex, cause I don't think many women's t-shirts would work as unisex due to the cut). Now, a lot of these women don't cause waves cause, A) band shirts ARE sold as unisex at concerts and websites and record stores and such and, B) they might wear a pair of boxers or mens sweats but they aren't trying to be a guy.

    Now, part of the reason why I think crossdressing (at least in males) is typically seen as weird is that we still are kinda in a male driven society, and a fair amount of society can't see why a guy would want to have anything to do with anything girly. Also, there is a big difference in people's eyes of a guy who puts on a skirt and a guy who tries to look like a woman, even to adding fake breasts and such. Even though things like homosexuality and transsexualism are being viewed more and more as "normal" it still shakes many a old fashioned, conservative mind that a guy, who "has been given a higher status in society" would want to be a girl, even for a short amount of time.
    I'm a guy who likes girls, I just like a little more about them than the average guy.

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    Full marks to Shenanigans for doing her bit to try and get everyone off the subject of criticising women for wearing trousers (or whatever). When we want to wear what we want, it is bonkers to have a go at others for wearing what they want.

    If you want society to change, people have to change it. If you are not willing to be part of the change, don't blame other people. I go out dressed as a woman a lot, and I go out as a man in a skirt a lot. I can only speak for the UK, but it is NOT a big deal. Apart from the occasional double-take, there is NO reaction. Astonishing but true. If anything, people in shops and restaurants and hotels are even nicer to you. If you feel there is a problem, be part of the solution.

    I admit that I am not 'out' to most of my friends and colleagues, but that is my choice too. I have a huge commitment to my work, and my effectiveness depends on my professional credibility. I want to be judged by my work instead of what I wear, so my appearances are selective. That does not invalidate my point - I lead by example a lot of the time, and I do not feel any need to blame anything on women. For women to be able to wear trousers it took a few brave women to start doing so, at a time when society was nothing like as tolerant as it is now. My mother was one of those women.

    It would be good if the retail sector did its bit to try and promote men wearing what they want. Imagine the upsurge in sales if more men felt comfortable buying skirts and dresses.

    But the bottom line is - if you want change, be part of it.

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    Member tiffanyjo89's Avatar
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    Something I will add...most women around where I live actually wear pants all the time.

    If I'm out and see a woman in a skirt or a dress I tend to take notice a bit more. I guess it's because in an area (about halfway between Atlanta and the Alabama state line) having women in pants all the time makes a woman in a skirt instinctively stand out.

    Also, the fashion industry may be all for men wearing women's clothes, but if men don't want to buy them, the stores aren't going to stock them.
    I'm a guy who likes girls, I just like a little more about them than the average guy.

  14. #14
    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    Regardless of what anyone says here Shan, there is no way in Hell I can pour myself into a pair of jeans and look good like you gals do. Call it what you will, the result is what tells the tale.
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

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    Silver Member kellycan27's Avatar
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    Female designed clothing for men are still " men's" clothing.... Kryptonite to cross dressers LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by darla_g View Post
    Its always a weak argument to use the point that they can do it without comment why can't we? We have no spokesman and certainly no positive role models out in the public eye.
    The point is that you and I need to be the positive role models for other folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by kellycan27 View Post
    Female designed clothing for men are still " men's" clothing.... Kryptonite to cross dressers LOL
    The problem here is that female designed clothing for men will be masculinized by the designer to the point that it will not be feminine anymore. Take for example women's high-heels. I am sure that if high-heels were offered for men, instead of simply offering larger sized, they would be ruggedized and masculinized making them look bulky and clunky. If the designers would just realize that all they need to do is make women's clothing and shoes in larger sizes rather than musculinizing these items.
    Last edited by Lorileah; 02-22-2013 at 02:19 AM. Reason: merged consecutive posts
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  17. #17
    CamilleLeon's SO Shananigans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie001 View Post
    The problem here is that female designed clothing for men will be masculinized by the designer to the point that it will not be feminine anymore. Take for example women's high-heels. I am sure that if high-heels were offered for men, instead of simply offering larger sized, they would be ruggedized and masculinized making them look bulky and clunky. If the designers would just realize that all they need to do is make women's clothing and shoes in larger sizes rather than musculinizing these items.
    I bet that if there was a huge surge in demand for ultra-feminine man heels (wow, never that I'd use that terminology), designers would chunk them out and stores would stock them sky high.

    Even business people that weren't wild about crossdressing would without a doubt hop on that gravy train and ride it all the way to the bank. How many people do you know that wouldn't?

    For example, Chic Fil A... Oh, wait, even the big Bible thumping homophobes will still gladly serve you your overpriced chicken sandwich with a smile. I wasn't the least bit bothered by the owner saying he didn't support gay marriage...he's a businessman and not really much of an authority on morality/any valid opinion. As long as he doesn't slap a sign on the door that says No Homos allowed, I'll eat his chicken and call him backwards. And, he'll gladly take my big, gay money.

    Because, that's how it works. You want feminine shoes? There's enough dudes that want them? Well, damn, if it hasn't been exploited and marketed, I'm seeing an opportunity here. The fact of the matter is people genuinely care about money...and, they care more about it than making a shoe that you won't buy. Now, I do expect that the feminine designed shoes marketed to men would be on the larger side...men are just bigger in general. And, more tailoring to the male body would probably be advantageous to most CDs...though I highly suspect that even though there is all this lamenting about little variety in the men's department, many CDs would still want the female marketed clothing item on pure principle. But, That is a a different animal...and, certainly no ground to stand on if you are making the argument that your only issue is that the men's department isn't frilly enough for your liking. I know that most of my old clothes fit my boyfriend very differently than they fit me...they really weren't designed with his shape in mind. And, unfortunately, now that I'm a size 4 and he's a 12, I won't let him go anywhere near my dresses in fear he'd rip them apart And, it's really not that he's fat or anything...he's actually on the skinnier side for guys...but, the way women's clothes are designed, he's pretty much screwed before he gets one arm in the sleeve. So, naturally, he wears a larger size, but they still fit quite awkwardly because women generally carry weight in their lower bodies...so, he's runs into this problem of the "baggy ass" syndrome. If there were feminine clothes that were designed for what is essentially an inverted triangle (the male shape), they'd look loads better. But, in female fashion, the larger clothes are generally larger at the bottom and not a whole lot different in the shoulder area...and, the smaller sizes are just so tiny that he could probably only successfully wear my dress as a scarf...bless his heart. And, it makes him feel fat...but, I tell him every day that he's just built differently and it's okay. We eventually find styles that work...but, it's quite a chore to find a style that fits and actually complements his frame.

    So, I feel he would definitely be a consumer that would buy feminine male fashions...he would have No interest in fashions that were "meeting halfway." Generally, it seems that most people don't like it when things meet at the halfway mark... I know that I personally think that unisex was the worst thing to ever happen to clothing, it looks terrible on everyone (like a sloppy, untailored charley foxtrot of a nightmare, and I wish to never be forced to buy it again. In fact, I can't think of a single person (who I actually respect on fashion) that wears unisex outside of nightshirts. And, praise God the whole thing is just dying out...someone told designers that they created monster and we'll all pretend it never happened. So, I feel almost like a "man heel" would be very similar...the heel is generally worn to look feminine...it would be the stupidest thing in the world to have a man's-looking shoe with a heel on it. (Though I've seen sneaker heels and I thought I had literally died and gone to Hell). So, though the shoe might look more masculine from size, I feel like styles would probably be more feminine... Or, else what would be the point? My SO also is a size 12 shoe...imagine what a nightmare it is to find That. (Although I guess many of you know). And, his foot isn't getting any smaller, so he's either going to get a shoe designed to fit him or shop in the men's department...he might occasionally run into the odd designer for big-footed women, but even that's pretty sparse. And, I am guessing that also has to do with market...I really don't know a girl that has a bigger foot than me (personally)...and I'm just a 9.5-10. But, even I had a hard time finding shoes because I was cursed with banana feet...weird, narrow feet... However, it seemed like there must have been a Banana Foot convention that I missed...because, one day, tons of "narrow" shoes started piling on the shelves. I think every woman in my family praised the day they would no longer be wobbling around in their giant shoes. But, like it or not, when I wear skinny jeans it's pretty obvious that I have these long, awkward feet. It is what it is. So, say tomorrow they have stilletos in the male department in size 12s...my boyfriend snatches them up...he snatches up a dress in that same department that is a 12. Well, when he goes home, it's not going to magically change his body type or make his feet any smaller...and, I'm sure he might do what I do and blame the shoe. But, in his case, he could always hop back over to the women's department in a declared bias that their dresses and shoes are more feminine...and, that biased would be confirmed just on the basis that it is possibly more feminine being that it was actually designed for women. Yet, at the end of the day, your foot still is the same size and now you're in a dress that doesn't fit quite right. There Are people that are blessed, and I'm sure there are quite a few lucky CDs here...but, I also know the majority run in to problems like my SO. And, though I know he'd take that male-designed dress and say it is too manly, I am sure that it would probably look more tailored to him. You have to rid yourself of the bias that things from the women's department=feminine and that things designed for women=feminine to accept it...and, I recognize that it seems backwards. But, if the argument is truly for more feminine male fashions, then you have to also buy that it is still designed with a man in mind. Does that make it automatically more masculine and unacceptable? Is it still unacceptable if it might actually fit you better?

    I can't really answer these questions. But, in my body issues of having long, stupid feet, I had to ask if I would continue spending money on "normal" shoes if they didn't come in narrow. And, I came to the conclusion that I sometimes might by the regular shoe...but, I'm also buying the narrows. I still cringe when I see my feet sticking out of the bottom of my pants legs like two floating battleships attached to my ankles, but it's really not the shoe's fault. Have I taken shoes back because "they made my feet look big"? Yep. And, I also silently realized I was being one...I just have big, banana feet.
    "Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
    “What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck

  18. #18
    Member tiffanyjo89's Avatar
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    What you brought up in your last post is actually very interesting.

    There are people who make feminine looking clothing cut with a typical male build in mind (the inverted triangle as it is called), but those places either deliver horrible quality or are generally over priced and under stocked in styles. Oh, and there are people who are genetically part of one sex (both sides have their small section that suffers this no matter what) and wear the clothing of their birth sex but have issues finding clothing cause they are kinda between sizes. Take, for example, a woman who is well endowed, she might have to have everything she buys either altered (which is expensive when everything has to be done) or she might buy the larger of the two sizes and have a top that fits very loose around her waist (despite it being designed to fit tight around the waist). I can imagine a flat chested woman would suffer the opposite as well.

    Also, take someone like me, I have about a half foot split between my waist and hips, that's a few inches more than the average split, but I also carry a bit more in my thighs. Also, a lot of stores really don't seem to have jeans that are at 30 inches that will fit me okay.

    At one time more people had clothes more-or-less custom made and it was something that would look right on them, and if they weren't custom made by the store, the people knew more and were able to modify the clothes easier. Part of the issues trans types run into are just a slightly more exaggerated form of what happens with non trans types all the time, mass production. Sometimes in body work on cars you get a car that has had its frame bent a little out of line, but when you order, let's say, a fender try to bolt it on, it doesn't line up cause of the frame being out of line. Is it the manufacturer's fault? No, they made it for the specifications that the car was made to from the factory and that's the only way to really do it. When your shop gets it they might have to modify the thing to make it fit right. It happens. When people buy clothes, they are made for a template that applies to a certain ideal, that ideal will vary between manufacturer and store preference (like how Victoria's Secret doesn't even have bras that go past a certain point, but other retailers will, and a store that sells jeans to teens probably would not be making money if it stocked jeans that covered the belly button, despite the fact that there are people who will buy them, but the people who will buy them won't go into that store).
    I'm a guy who likes girls, I just like a little more about them than the average guy.

  19. #19
    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Look, Shana, u posted here with an attitude. So, u should expect an argument! However, it won't be from me.

    Of all the specious, convoluted, and smoke screen posts I've read here, claims blaming GG's for CD's dressing or having anything to do with forming public opinion against dressers is too far over the top to argue about!

    The only thing I blame GG's for is looking so hot that I feel compelled to copy their style or looks!
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  20. #20
    CamilleLeon's SO Shananigans's Avatar
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    Tiffany, custom-made or altered is definitely best...but, I would be outta my damn mind if I took all my crap to be altered in this economy. It used to be an option when I had a reasonable tailor...but, he went out of business a while ago. My best friend is really petite...she has legs that I swear are like 12 inches long (lol). And, obviously, we can't be walking around the hospital with our pants dragging on the ground...I thought she had all if her scrubs hemmed, but she was duct taping them up! Have you heard of such crap? She knows she's wrong for that one. So, some things do need to be specialized, but it's largely not feasible for wardrobe-scale. Clothing quality is a mess not only with men's fashion or with fashions that deal with people caught in between shapes...it's all just bad in general. The biggest load of crock is Forever 21...they really disgust me now. And, seriously, it's not That much cheaper. Sure I can pay $10 less for some heels there, but if they break and I fall and bust myself up then they really aren't worth it. So, Everyone has to be pretty consumer aware now on quality...I really do my research. If a designer makes something you feel is of bad quality...refuse to buy anything from them. A store makes female fashions for men, but they do a bad job?...Screw them. But, right now, they pretty much have their thumbs on the market because they don't have a lot of competition. But, if you buy women's clothes, it continues to look like there is absolutely very little demand for feminine clothes designed for men...and, so your stuck with few competitors and a crappy product. And, the women of awkward sizing (or, well endowed) actually have no excuse...there are tons of stores out there catering to women of all sizes and variations...but, generally, we tend to have similar bone structure and we tend to gain weight in the same ways...so, it's pretty easy to set up shop. It does, however, require some research...and, I think most people are working so hard that they just want to put something on their backs and get on with the day. I actually was volunteering at a homeless shelter for women today and it was sort of frightening how similar we all were...or, that we were just a few pay checks away in difference. But, they'd be the first to tell you that they won't waste their money supporting a broken product. I feel like it's a popular attitude and the industries are listening intently...now, would be a good time for other populations to be heard as far as what they are wanting and willing to buy...if you know what I mean.
    "Today a young man [...] realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration...that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively...there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the Weather.”-Bill Hicks
    “What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be a human. One would be a monster.” East of Eden by Steinbeck

  21. #21
    Member max's Avatar
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    Shananigans, I tried to read most of your post, but you need to add some tl;dr's sometimes...

    One point that it seems you overlooked is that women can take clothes from the mens' department wear those and not have it called crossdressing. That is where the double standard comes into play. On reddit there is a more active FTM community and you can read in some of their posts about how far they have to take crossdressing in order for people to realize they are trying to present a masculine image. If they do just a little it's so accepted that nobody realizes they are trying to make a statement about their gender identity.
    “Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "I will try again tomorrow.”

    Mary Anne Radmacher

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by max View Post
    On reddit there is a more active FTM community and you can read in some of their posts about how far they have to take crossdressing in order for people to realize they are trying to present a masculine image. If they do just a little it's so accepted that nobody realizes they are trying to make a statement about their gender identity.
    Thing is, most women aren't trying to make any type of statement with clothes like that. There are many businesses that dress everyone, men and women, in a golf shirt and khakis. What would've been traditionally male clothes 50-60 years ago have become unisex in many cases now.

    I would venture that most of us on this forum do not choose the women's garments we wear primarily for comfort, practicality, utility, and flexibilty - we are mostly trying to make a statement. Maybe to the world, maybe to ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shananigans View Post
    And, the women of awkward sizing (or, well endowed) actually have no excuse...there are tons of stores out there catering to women of all sizes and variations...but, generally, we tend to have similar bone structure and we tend to gain weight in the same ways...so, it's pretty easy to set up shop.
    Sort of OT:

    I just wanted to say something about this - because I actually know something about this. I worked for a place, once a long time ago, that built systems for the design of apparel and footwear. Generally there are a set of mathematical rules / transformations that take a basic pattern, and scale it non-linearly to adjust for variations in size of the human body in various ways. This is a fairly mechanical process, and each vendor has their own sets of rules to generate sizes.

    What limits the sets of sizes they create is the market - in the sense that modern apparel is generally cut on gigantic cutting machines. These machines generally cut 50+ ply of fabric at a time, creating the parts for sometimes hundreds of garments very rapidly. Needing to produce at least 50-100 of a really atypical size for your market limits what they'll make.

    BTW, the machines that make wedding dress pieces are spectacularly awesomely huge.

    Sorry for the OT.
    Last edited by Lorileah; 02-22-2013 at 02:21 AM. Reason: merged consecutive posts, when responding to multiple post use multiquote or edit please Thanks

  23. #23
    A California Girl Rachel Morley's Avatar
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    Personally, I have never thought that because GGs wear pants (or whatever) they were CDing, of course they're not. It's just a fashion choice that (as you rightly say) they made happen due their own efforts in the distant past. In my past when I was not accepting of myself as a CDer and was still deep in the closet I wanted to wear more feminine clothing, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it (not in public anyway) and so at the time used to moan about men's fashion choices verses women's and that it wasn't fair.

    However, these days, because I am at peace with myself and accept and embrace CDing fully, I never think for one second that men have poor choices or moan about differences. Why? ... because it doesn't matter to me anymore. I wear women's clothes all the time to a greater or lesser extent. So, if I have to wear a more gender neutral clothes at work than I would like, so what? I know that as soon as I get out of work I can femme my boy mode up a little and if that's not enough, I know that this coming weekend I'm going to be fully immersed in "femme-ness" because I'll be presenting as female and going out! Men's clothing choices? .. who cares, not me.
    Last edited by Rachel Morley; 02-22-2013 at 10:31 AM.
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  24. #24
    Chickie Chickhe's Avatar
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    I think most of the comments made are 'justifications' for CDing. They are probably not intended to discredit woman or anyone else. Its like saying if Billy is allowed to throw a ball, I should be allowed to also and doing that doesn't take anything away from Billy. In fact, Billy will then have a friend to play with. As for CDers hiding...well, I think its all about fear and the reactions of others. Most CDers I think are happy with their lives and fear that CDing or the knowledge that they CD will change everything. Its a valid concern based on some of the really bad situations we hear about in the news. In a perfect world, where CDing is considered normal, things would be a lot different. If you think back a few years, anyone with a tattoo was considered an outcast, but now almost anyone gets one and you almost don't notice anymore. It takes time, but there are more and more CDers becoming visible, for example, Jessica Who or KimberlyTx who are out there talking to people and enjoying it. I do halloweens enfem partly to get out and show people CDing is fun. It takes time, but the world is becoming a generally more freindly place for everyone.
    Chickie

  25. #25
    Senior Member Amanda M's Avatar
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    Frankly for me it is quite simple. For a crossdresser to denigrate women for wearing trousers is simply silly. If you are a crossdresser, and you think the GGs around you wearing pants are crossdressing, surely you should be supportive of them?

    As to more feminine looking male fashions - kkryptonite indeed! I like my female clothing precisely because that is what it is - female clothing!

    So if the pants fit, wear them.
    If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

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