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Thread: Am I TS? Tough love or compassion?

  1. #51
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    As I read (and re-read) this thread I see something that really sticks out, and that's the almost universal disdain for labels and the equally universal use of them (although not necessarily by the same people). And that's perfectly OK when we label ourselves, but we run into problems when we try to label others.

    Maybe "label" isn't quite accurate. Maybe we should simply say "identify". Labeling, or identifying, isn't actually bad, as it helps us find context for whatever it is we're doing and it helps others relate to us in a way that is consistent with our self identity.

    So why all the venom over the idea of whether or not someone is a "True TS"?

    I think some of that has to do with our own issues of who or what we are. I know someone who, despite being a pre-op TS and established in her own RLE adamantly refuses to call herself "transsexual" but merely "transgender". When pressed for an explanation she states that since she's not post-op she does not consider herself to be transsexual.

    Yeah, talk like that in this forum would be met with vociferous and well-deserved opposition.

    And that's all well and good if it stops with her; the problem is that she also transfers her own self-definition onto others in the way she deals with them. If, in her mind, she's not TS until she's post-op then how can anyone else be, either? And thus begins all of the conflicts she has in her relationships with other transsexuals. Long story short, nobody wants to talk to her because she's so wacky.

    I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but I do think that the conflicts we run into on this site sometimes have a basis in a very similar dynamic. Sometimes.

    And yes, there IS a definition for "True TS", but I have yet to see anyone here use it. Dr. Harry Benjamin identified 6 degrees (or types) of gender dissonance in his Sex Orientation Scale as described in The Transsexual Phenomenon. You can do a web search and download it.

    It's a good read. Will it help you, personally, identify your own gender identity issues and give context to what's going on in your life? Maybe, maybe not. But in any event there's no need to have these senseless "True TS" discussions. If you think you're TS there's a very high probability that you are, and that may be true enough. And according to Dr Benjamin it's merely the degree of your dissonance and what you do about it that determines how "true" it is.
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  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    Now what if somebody is talking incessantly about 'the' transition and also talks about getting turned on by clothes, and also makes mention of enjoying the twig and berries? Are they TS or not? Personally I think prolly not, but who cares what I think, they can shut me up forever by just doing one simple thing; Transition. Somewhere along the way I got lumped in with the 'qualifiers' which is funny because my website opens with my feelings on how personal your transition is and how it should be done your own way. I have zero interest in being the tranny arbiter, my message is simply a call to action. Just do it already, or not, but living in limbo isn't really living.

    So nowadays, nobody says I'm not a real tranny anymore. I've moved on to not being a real woman. ;-)

    I think the real lesson here is what I will now call the BadTranny Paradox; You gain acceptance from the trans community, by not seeking acceptance from the trans community. My goal has always been to be accepted as a woman by the world at large. I never gave, and still don't give a damn about what the trans community thinks about me. In fact, I believe anybody who needs the respect of the 'community' needs to seriously examine their motives for transition. ...ooops there I go again. ;-)
    You're damn right, for years I was asking the wrong question, "am I a TS woman?"

    Once you quit overthinking and start doing things all comes clear. Right now I don't even care if I qualify or not, I'm simply doing what's best for me.
    "I'm not sure. But I'll never know unless I give it a shot."

  3. #53
    Member melissakozak's Avatar
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    A journey back in time is useful when we use 'labels' or 'self-identify' or 'identify as' statements. No doubt, people have been TS throughout history. People have had gender dysphoria for thousands of years. HRT, surgery, etc. are fairly new, modern ways for TS women to physically transform their bodies, and it seems this has gotten a lot easier to do over the past twenty years. A very dear friend of mine had to go to the Stanford gender clinic in the early 1990's to get HRT. Now, all you need are a few counseling appts. with some qualified therapists and medical referral and obtaining HRT is a lot easier today. I call it PROGRESS. Facial feminization surgery is also relatively new and has made huge differences in the lives of thousands of transpeople. Again, PROGRESS. SRS is now offered at many different places around the world. This is PROGRESS.

    Back in time, imagine if you will, being born with the same feelings as so many of us have today. Imagine if you are born into a culture that accepts trans identified individuals but the science and technology can't make this individual physically female....BUT the culture accepts and might even revere someone who socially identifies as the opposite gender from their birth sex? This was the case with many North American tribes just over one hundred years ago...so, being trans is an internal state of affairs and how far we choose to move along physically and socially is up to the individual, culture and technology. Our technology has caught up to us; our society is barely catching on......

    If being transgender was more accepted in our society, then most of us wouldn't end up with so much internal self questioning and doubt. The message on the outside is NO, NO, and NO....and the message on the inside, the still, small voice of truth in each of us, is simply saying....YES....

  4. #54
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Some people use "identifying as". The word "identify" connotes an activity, an inner activity, which means that the person has decided that they actively adopt a thought, stance or viewpoint that is different from expectations or norms. If I say I identify as a republican then this is because I do so. We usually identify as something after we have found that a particular definition of the thing accords with our own views. Identifying as is entirely subjective based on our views, feelings and pre-conceptions. So if someone identifies as transgender they do so because they say so either out loud or to themselves. In essence, people say they are a woman and then they are. The social conflicts experienced are as a result of the world, their social environment, spouses, children and others disagreeing. The basis for this disagreement lies in the immediate visceral reaction of those privy to this self-identification to say either no you are not, or more often is answered with the question: because you say so?

    What Benjamin discovered, was that a medical condition exists which is measureable (he was an endocrinologist by the way) during his time through careful observation of the individuals making a claim to be of the sex that their body said they are not, lately increasingly through actual research of endocrine and physiological phenomena associated with transsexualism. He determined that transsexualism is a medical pathology which requires diagnosis. His book developed a phenomenology of transsexualism which led him to distinguish between various types of persons. His conclusion was that Type 5 or 6 were transsexuals and Type 1-4 were not because of the lack of intensity (more in his later work supported by Pauly's research).

    In this sense labels, identifiers play little part in what he discovered. Rather his approach was diagnosis. The reason why he believed diagnosis was essential was to provide an objective basis for a persons claim to be of a different sex than their body obviously displayed. Both the legal, social and societal ramifications of his research are enormous and could have provided much needed relief to those who actually suffered from this medical condition. Instead what happened was that the psycho-babblers annexed the field and made an industry out of this. The only way this could be accomplished was to say to people "you are whatever you say you are" which is exactly what you suggest without any objective basis to back this up.

    I really appreciate your comment.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  5. #55
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    Great discussion! Here is a link to the Benjamin table that was referred to by Michelle and Kathryn. You just need to scroll down a bit in the article. Page 19

    http://tgmeds.org.uk/downs/phenomenon.pdf

  6. #56
    It's infamous that the medical community is using the works of a endocrinologist as a standard. It's like using the research of a dentist for brain tumors...

    Things like "TRUE TRANSSEXUAL" or that you can only be attracted to men to qualify are plainly wrong.
    "I'm not sure. But I'll never know unless I give it a shot."

  7. #57
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    WTF? An endocrinologist IS a member of the medical community, so your analogy isn't exactly apt. And that attraction to men thing was based on observation in an era when that expectation was more of a social norm than it is now (and thus stated by the patients), rather than as a requirement for gender identity. I think we can all agree that the acceptance of sexual orientation variation has become significantly more relaxed in this respect.

    It's all about context, Dear. Lighten up a little, OK?
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 03-09-2013 at 04:52 PM. Reason: No need to quote the preceding post
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  8. #58
    Ok, then let's say a endocrinologist talking about brain tumours or surgery. He is a doctor but there's a reason why each doctor must study and practice to become an expert in a particular area. He can talk about hormones but since when he's trained or should be treated like an expert on transsexualism? Here doctors use his work as a Bible, and I think it's wrong.
    Last edited by Saffron; 03-09-2013 at 02:12 PM.
    "I'm not sure. But I'll never know unless I give it a shot."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marleena View Post
    I have no answer since I don't give advice unless something is glaringly obvious because I don't really feel qualified.
    Huh? You have no answer, you're not qualified, but you are suggesting that both are untrue. Marleena, I'm just asking here, NOT criticizing. Unfortunately, there are so many problems with your question. If i have a leg amputated, I can say I know what it is like to be a person with two legs. If I have breast implants and have my penis removed, I cannot say I know what is is like to be a woman . Rephrasing that would be "woman is between the ears, not between the legs".
    Am I TS?" Are you asking if that means am I a person who is going to surgery to change my outward appearance? If you have surgery then you are no longer TS --you have CROSSED OVER, you are a "female". Isn't that the place where the "new you" just blends in with the women of the world and doesn't come back to cddotcom?
    JUST a crossdresser

  10. #60
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    Busker my point was I do not feel qualified to tell somebody if they are TS unless they obviously are or are not. If I looked at your signature I could say obviously you are not.

    I'm just trying to get a feel for the TS section here. If somebody transitions, yes they are women. Some that have transitioned are still here and their knowledge is welcome here. I do not possess their knowledge.

  11. #61
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saffron View Post
    Ok, then let's say a endocrinologist talking about brain tumours or surgery. He is a doctor but there's a reason why each doctor must study and practice to become an expert in a particular area. He can talk about hormones but since when he's trained or should be treated like an expert on transsexualism? Here doctors use his work as a Bible, and I think it's wrong.
    A medical degree is a medical degree, any specialization comes after they have obtained a medical degree. That in Spain, as in many countries Benjamin's work is considered highly relevant means that the psychiatrist and psychologist community has not highjacked the field as it has in the US and Canada. You should count yourself lucky. At least they don't subsrcibe to the "I say whatever I am and therefore I am" lunacy.

    What Michelle said about sexual attraction is that among transsexuals the ordinary sexual attraction demography holds true. That is, approximately 93% of the general female population is attracted to men and about 7% is attracted to women. Draw your own conclusions.

    And Marleena, the Type scale is on page at the top 16 top. None of us are qualified to diagnose transsexuality in any way. We can hold opinions but they are never determinative.
    Last edited by Kathryn Martin; 03-09-2013 at 05:19 PM.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  12. #62
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Busker, I'm sorry, I cannot accept your redefinition of what makes someone transsexual. We do not "become transsexual" by doing something, we are born transsexual.

    There is a debate amongst some post-op trans women about whether they can just drop the "trans" appellation and I do not wish to engage with that debate, but you are wrong about post-ops never returning to this site - some have contributed to this very thread.

    As someone who declares themself "just a crossdresser", you are probably right that you cannot know what it is to be a woman, but those of us who are women (albeit for pre-ops and non-ops with a body that does not match) things are different. In general we cannot truly know what it is to be a man.
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  13. #63
    I have no answer since I don't give advice unless something is glaringly obvious because I don't really feel qualified.
    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    Huh? You have no answer, you're not qualified, but you are suggesting that both are untrue. Marleena, I'm just asking here, NOT criticizing.
    I think Marleena was speaking about general questions or things that anyone can answer. For example you don't need to be on HRT to know that it causes testicular atrophy and it's going to hurt. If someone ask about experiences, then only people with such experiences can really tell.
    "I'm not sure. But I'll never know unless I give it a shot."

  14. #64
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    Thanks Saffron, I edited the original post since the wording is bad. "I have no answer" meaning to my own question and I'm looking to see how others respond to "AM I TS"? That was the idea behind the thread to see which approach the other TS member use.

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    not quite I think

    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    Busker, I'm sorry, I cannot accept your redefinition of what makes someone transsexual. We do not "become transsexual" by doing something, we are born transsexual.

    There is a debate amongst some post-op trans women about whether they can just drop the "trans" appellation and I do not wish to engage with that debate, but you are wrong about post-ops never returning to this site - some have contributed to this very thread.

    As someone who declares themself "just a crossdresser", you are probably right that you cannot know what it is to be a woman, but those of us who are women (albeit for pre-ops and non-ops with a body that does not match) things are different. In general we cannot truly know what it is to be a man.
    First off, I think that even if you realize at a young age you are gender different, you don't pronounce yourself "transsexual" because that is a word that you do not yet know. You can say mommy "I feel different, or I feel like a girl" . To me Trans means crossed over, and unless in your mind you have actually Crossed Over, it can't apply. If I fly trans atlantic, I just can't hang out in space of 42 deg lat, 53 deg long. I have got to get to London.
    The observation was not mine but a person who claimed to be a transitioned person--e.g. a woman. What is a woman doing on a website about transitioning. It is like an AA member going to a bar and talking about drinking. When you have made the journey, why continue to repeat the process. Move on.
    And lastly, you are correct in that you don't know what it is to be a "complete" man, but you certainly don't know what it is to be a woman because you were raised, and socialized to be a male whether you like that thought or not. changing one's stripes for spots does make one a tiger. The major adjustment that you will make will be in your THINKING. This is the way we all cope with dyswhatever. I want to be an astronaut, it ain't going to happen, so I adjust my mental frame to accommodate the reality. Each of us views life subjectively. None of us can say with any precision that they understand someone in a similar plight. I can guess pretty well how someone feels having cancer (since I have it) but not exactly. I have gynecomastia but it doesn't make me a woman nor does it give me any inkling on how women think. I just have the option to wear a bra or not as I see fit. It does however, change my view of "maleness" with regard to myself--my subjectivity.
    Last edited by busker; 03-10-2013 at 01:15 AM.
    JUST a crossdresser

  16. #66
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    If you have surgery then you are no longer TS --you have CROSSED OVER, you are a "female". Isn't that the place where the "new you" just blends in with the women of the world and doesn't come back to cddotcom?
    While many transsexuals subscribe to that philosophy, not all do.

    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    To me Trans means crossed over, and unless in your mind you have actually Crossed Over, it can't apply. . . . The observation was not mine but a person who claimed to be a transitioned person--e.g. a woman. What is a woman doing on a website about transitioning.
    Busker, just so everyone knows to whom we're talking, do YOU identify as transsexual, or how do you identify? I'm only asking so I can ascertain the origin of your opinion. Is it an opinion that comes from a transsexual who happens to hold this opinion or is it the opinion of someone else who only repeats the opinions and misinformation gained from sources of questionable integrity and credibility?

    And just because someone is post-op does not prohibit them from sharing their experiences and staying in touch with trans issues as they may dealt with here on this site. Or are you implying that no real post-op woman hangs out here?

    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    And lastly, you are correct in that you don't know what it is to be a "complete" man, but you certainly don't know what it is to be a woman because you were raised, and socialized to be a male whether you like that thought or not. changing one's stripes for spots does make one a tiger.
    You have a pretty good track record for ignorance on this site. Your tendency to act as though the garbage information you've used to "educate" yourself is actually valid continues unabated, and you never cease to amaze me with the way you keep on objectifying transwomen and yet you somehow never learn from your mistakes. How much longer are you going to keep this nonsense up?
    Last edited by Michelle.M; 03-10-2013 at 01:32 AM.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marleena View Post
    Busker my point was I do not feel qualified to tell somebody if they are TS unless they obviously are or are not. If I looked at your signature I could say obviously you are not.

    I'm just trying to get a feel for the TS section here. If somebody transitions, yes they are women. Some that have transitioned are still here and their knowledge is welcome here. I do not possess their knowledge.
    Marleena, then they already KNOW and why would they want to ask the question initially? And, how could confirm that they are or they are not since you are not and you have no way of verifying. The problem is that it is a loaded question. It is not the same as asking a doctor if you are sick. He can do blood work or something else and confirm or deny your assertion of being ill. A person who needs to ask wants someone else to be responsible for the naming, and if it isn't true, it becomes THEIR fault. A person who asks me if I'm a patriot may be telling me more about themselves then they will find out about me. Talk the talk, walk the walk. I realize that sometimes people have self doubt--we all do at some point in our lives about something. Think of a person asking themselves if they are gay. They should be asking themselves if they get turned on by someone of their own sex. If yes, then there is pretty much the answer. So "Am I TS?" If if feel in my being that I should be a woman throughout the rest of my life, that pretty much answers the question. Another voice isn't needed to confirm that.

    Then there is always self-delusion. I can't admit to myself that I'm gay, and so I'd really rather look like a woman and find a man. This is what I have recently read about one study group of about less that 100 people. 60% said they couldn't see themselves as gay, so they decided to be transsexuals. True, it doesn't represent the entire population but it is a representation of thinking by people who are in a state of gender confusion.
    Last edited by busker; 03-10-2013 at 01:40 AM.
    JUST a crossdresser

  18. #68
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    I can' admit to myself that I'm gay, and so I'd really rather look like a woman and find a man.
    Okaaay . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    This is what I have recently read about one study group of about less that 100 people. 60% said they couldn't see themselves as gay, so they decided to be transsexuals.
    . . . but that's utter nonsense and you know it. Please present the link or source of that "study" that you "read" or I'm gonna have to call this for what it probably is - a bold face lie.

    That "transsexual as gay" nonsense is an unqualified generality used by the religious right (among others) to misinform the public and delegitimize the struggle of transgender people to simply live honest and authentic lives. You should be ashamed of yourself for bringing that nonsense here.
    I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.

  19. #69
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    To me Trans means crossed over
    Fortunately, you don't get to redefine words. We go by what the dictionary and / or the medical profession say here. Your redefinition of Trans is as wrong as your redefinition of transsexual.

    I don't know what your agenda is in coming into this thread, but you will not be allowed to derail it.
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  20. #70
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    Interesting.. I myself have been diagnosed here so I guess have spilled my guts on a couple of occasions for nothing and I can start undoing things. Maybe reparative therapy is in order now.

  21. #71
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    this is a good example of how living is different than talking...

    no matter who or what you are, others will disagree...others will not affirm...you will be judged and you will judge others....

    in a forum of words, the labels mean so much more than in daily life...

    in a forum of words the most idiotic and thoughtless statements can have the same "value" as wisdom from on high or fully tested empirical data....

  22. #72
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    Labels, so-called, are funny things.

    Take the type that says they don't care about labels – call them anything you want, et cetera. Turns out that that usually only works when the label fits. Apply one that's not such a great fit and you typically get quite the reaction!

    Then there is the all-inclusive "non-labeler." The twist here is there usually is a label in play in the discussion, despite the protest. The plea is really to keep the label broad and inclusive. Think "transgender." How these think that categorization that excludes others invalidates themselves is completely beyond me.

    Try getting medical care without labels (diagnoses). Specifically, try getting trans–related care without them. Kathryn has already pointed out the hard basis in medicine and physiology. I.e., not all of these so-called labels are soft categorizations. In fact, the boundaries around some of them are becoming clearer all the time.
    Lea

  23. #73
    Senior Member Debglam's Avatar
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    Kathryn,

    If I am reading this correctly, you subscribe to the Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) theory regarding transsexualism. Am I correct or am I misreading your posts?
    Last edited by Tamara Croft; 03-10-2013 at 07:52 PM. Reason: You do not need to quote all that for one line of text, quotes deleted
    Debby

  24. #74
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Debby,

    I don't subscribe to HBS theory, Diamond theory, Money theory or Blanchard theory. Benjamin did not create a theory, he created a phenomenology of transsexualism and reported phenomena he observed.

    Since, apart from Diamond and Blanchard who wrote papers about the subject, he is the only one to have done so, his observations are important to me.

    I hope this helps
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

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    I've been quite for a while now. I've been doing some soul searching, seeing another gender psychologist, psychatrist for depression, and trying to work with my wife. One thing here that is missing is how transitioning affects the ones we love. There are some who are lucky that have accepting AND supportive wives - and that has to be a big miniority. There are even fewer who are older like me and have children to consider. I married late and had childern late so where most of my contempoaries are empty nesters - I have a 12 year old daughter to consider. I believe my family comes first, and I am second. Transitioning is entirely selfish and can have a huge negative affect on those around us. It is trememdously difficult to see a person you've known all of your life, who identified as a man, to suddenly see that person as a woman. Identity is the key for me, and the first thing that one sees in a person is their gender. Gender is a huge, if not THE biggest, part of our identities.

    I present as a woman because it's me - but it only places a band-aid over the underlying problem. I do go out often presenting as a woman and enjoy the acceptance, the ablity to just "be" in the world and know that I won't blow up or be killed. It's an affirmation that I am a woman when I go out. But it's all selfish and it all done alone.

    But my desire to transition (with all the pain and discomfort) is at logger heads with my desire to not hurt my family. When I transition I will lose my wife and my best friend I have ever had. She will learn to hate me. My daughter won't have her daddy any longer. Oh sure they'd get over it and go on with their lives but at what cost? It's funny, I'm prepared to lose everything, but what I struggle with and I am not prepared for is the damage I may cause. For a developing mind stress like this could cause (and this has been cliniclly documented) life long negative impacts.

    So I've been attempting, for my wife and family to just be father. It's not working. I have never been so low, so depressed. I cry at the drop of a hat and it just keeps getting worse. So that is having a negative impact on my family. My wife
    I've been quite for a while now. I've been doing some soul searching, seeing another gender psychologist, psychatrist for depression, and trying to work with my wife. One thing here that is missing is how transitioning affects the ones we love. There are some who are lucky that have accepting AND supportive wives - and that has to be a big miniority. There are even fewer who are older like me and have children to consider. I married late and had childern late so where most of my contempoaries are empty nesters - I have a 12 year old daughter to consider. I believe my family comes first, and I am second. Transitioning is entirely selfish and can have a huge negative affect on those around us. It is trememdously difficult to see a person you've known all of your life, who identified as a man, to suddenly see that person as a woman. Identity is the key for me, and the first thing that one sees in a person is their gender. Gender is a huge, if not THE biggest, part of our identities.

    I present as a woman because it's me - but it only places a band-aid over the underlying problem. I do go out often presenting as a woman and enjoy the acceptance, the ablity to just "be" in the world and know that I won't blow up or be killed. It's an affirmation that I am a woman when I go out. But it's all selfish and it all done alone.

    But my desire to transition (with all the pain and discomfort) is at logger heads with my desire to not hurt my family. When I transition I will lose my wife and my best friend I have ever had. She will learn to hate me. My daughter won't have her daddy any longer. Oh sure they'd get over it and go on with their lives but at what cost? It's funny, I'm prepared to lose everything, but what I struggle with and I am not prepared for is the damage I may cause. For a developing mind stress like this could cause (and this has been cliniclly documented) life long negative impacts.

    So I've been attempting, for my wife and family to just be father. It's not working. I have never been so low, so depressed. I cry at the drop of a hat and it just keeps getting worse. So that is having a negative impact on my family. My wife sees it and I'm sure my children pick up on it too. It seems that once I accepted being TS that it like Chernobyl and not Three Mile Island.
    sees it and I'm sure my children pick up on it too. It seems that once I accepted being TS that it like Chernobyl and not Three Mile Island.

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