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Thread: Am I TS? Tough love or compassion?

  1. #26
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    Thing is though, there's not aaaaaaall that many people who come in here asking. When they do, I think people usually get a good range of responses and certainly nobody can tell them for sure either way.

  2. #27
    ghost Anne2345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melissaK View Post
    These boards are home to pre-ops and the uncertain, and they study up on their life with incredible seriousness and earnestness. They become "experts" in gender and transsexualism. And some of them are damn smart minds. I read these posts and am in awe of the intellects here. I'm not dumb, God blessed me with enough to land me on the smart side of the IQ bell curve, but some pre-op posters here smoke my ass.

    And I note that a lot of girls here qualify their comments, and limit their comments to ground they have covered even though maybe they are not done with a transition (I am in that group).
    God bless each and every such pre-op "expert" here (including you, 'lissa), for opening up your lives, sharing your experiences, and offering your respective opinions, thoughts, and feelings on substantive and, very often times, quite emotional, deep, and personal issues and topics. I can honestly say without hesitation that I have learned much and benefited greatly from you all. I sometimes feel selfish that I take way more than I give.

    Obviously, however, the opinions, thoughts, and observations of post-ops here are to be given great weight and deference. They have, after all, been there done that. And I am certainly grateful to each and every one of them that takes the time and interest in helping to make the world a better, more manageable place for us all.

    But just because they have arrived at the destination of the path they travelled does not mean that a pre-op tranny's opinion is of any less value or worth. From my vantage point, when you sort out and dismiss the obvious BS that invariably enters the fray, this forum provides a very good mixture of personalities, experience, view points, and opinions that work to the benefit of us all.

    Fantastic response, 'lissa! Fantastic thread, Marleena!

  3. #28
    Senior Member Debglam's Avatar
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    OK. Deep breath. . .

    Internet advice is generally a bunch of bullshit! Anyone can tell you ANYTHING with absolutely no repercussions or responsibility for their advice at all. IMHO, the worst are the people that give absolutes, i.e. you ARE this or you AREN'T that, you MUST do this or you CAN'T do that. If you are giving advice like that over the Internet then you are a part of the problem.

    The real crime about this is that people seeking advice are often desperate, confused, and really need help. I know that when I had my "awakening" or "crisis" of gender, I was in a near panic. Where was all this going? Am I transsexual or what? I ended up on another well known forum where I was ripped to shreds for asking questions! (Nice ladies. I wish them well.)

    I spoke with a gender therapist but what helped me more than anything else was the advice I received from transwomen face-to-face. Maybe it is just me but while there are some women that I found helpful online, the real help that let me figure out who I am and where I fit in were the ones that sat down with me and talked about all this stuff. Even casual conversations with some of these women were helpful. (Thanks - some of you are on this forum.)

    With that said, I have been in this community long enough to get the sense that most trans people try to help other trans people out. I do think it helps to hear input from all shades of trans BTW. In trying to "calibrate" myself it didn't take long to figure that I had no interest in "panty threads" and that maybe surgery was something I didn't need in order to ease my gender discomfort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Jessica View Post
    I am personally stuck in between worlds, often seen as taking things too serious for many on the CD side of the fence and yet not "committed" enough on the TS side since I am digging my heels into my middle path. . .My take is that the middle-of-the-road approach is truly an option for those of us who are somehow able to cope with their GID without dropping a nuke on their life as they know it.

    The tone in this section has become much more kinder and gentler in the last several months. There is a fine line between "you go girl" and a bit of tough love. I think this section leans towards the latter without the vitriol that was present before.
    I agree and it took a lot of input from friends to figure this out.

    Deb
    Debby

  4. #29
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marleena View Post
    Good point. I was where you are for a long time Sara, fighting this. You're right it's hell..

    That's another reason I rarely post in this section, I always word things wrong.
    Marleena, you didn't get anything wrong. I was simply giving an alternative POV to expand on my point as to where to draw the "line". I guess part of that point should include that one can be a TS woman and not transition which is why I said that RLE & transition are areas of experience that a TS woman who is not in those places cannot comment on with authority.

    And BTW, I think this is a terrific thread. I hope everyone feels the same way, that value was added to this section by your thoughtful post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Debglam View Post
    Internet advice is generally a bunch of bullshit! Anyone can tell you ANYTHING with absolutely no repercussions or responsibility for their advice at all. IMHO, the worst are the people that give absolutes, i.e. you ARE this or you AREN'T that, you MUST do this or you CAN'T do that. If you are giving advice like that over the Internet then you are a part of the problem.
    I generally agree but I think in a place such as this, there is a genuine desire to help, both others and ourselves. Writing can be cathartic and if one puts herself out there with honesty and consistency, I think that shines through to the point where others understand they can really rely on the advice given as part of a larger circle in the decision making process (including friends in person, therapy, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Debglam View Post
    The real crime about this is that people seeking advice are often desperate, confused, and really need help. I know that when I had my "awakening" or "crisis" of gender, I was in a near panic. Where was all this going? Am I transsexual or what? I ended up on another well known forum where I was ripped to shreds for asking questions! (Nice ladies. I wish them well.)
    Hmmmm, what forum might that be??? I have a pretty good guess.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
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  5. #30
    Lady By Choice Leslie Langford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Jessica View Post
    I think the line of demarcation has to do with whether someone is living full time as a female, RLE & beyond. Despite the fact that I am TS, I am personally stuck in between worlds, often seen as taking things too serious for many on the CD side of the fence and yet not "committed" enough on the TS side since I am digging my heels into my middle path.
    Well said, Sara, and I find myself following the same path that you are, and for exactly the same reasons.

    Now that I have finally accepted the fact that I am transgendered, I am far more at peace with myself, and increasing my version of RLE insofar as having ramped up the frequency and quality of my time out in public as "Leslie" has done wonders for my mental state of being. For me, this is as far as I need to go, and provides just the right balance between my inner "femme" side and the need to maintain my inherent male persona for the sake of my family and the otherwise "normal" life that I have built around that.

    I think that my wife is also slowly coming around to finally recognizing and acknowledging the compromises and sacrifices that I have made in that regard, rather than continuously repeating the worn-out mantra that while she loves me deeply and couldn't imagine a life without me, she didn't sign up to marry a crossdresser and so the burden of guilt has to rest with me.

    We now have far more open communications about this topic than before, the DADT stance is softening, "Leslie" gets to go out more often without the past recriminations, life has become far more fulfilling and pleasant for both of us, and irony of ironies - I almost think that my transgenderism is now drawing us closer together as my wife defaults to a more nurturing and protective mode as she finally realizes just how much of a challenge this has been for me as well for all of my life.

    Then again, getting older sometimes has its benefits too, especially when the realization hits that we only go around this block once, and that there is now more time behind us than remains ahead of us. Sometimes we just have to accept what we cannot change, make peace with our circumstances, and move on. In the end, it is better to be happy than to always be "right", or seemingly occupy the moral high ground in situations such as this.
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 03-07-2013 at 10:37 AM. Reason: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/faq.php?faq=main_rules#faq_content

  6. #31
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Based on your post you are saying you are not transsexual ..
    expressing your femme side in relation to your own reality is a great thing...

    of course its best to be happy and at peace with yourself..but how crossdressers do that and how transsexuals do that is totally and completely apples/oranges.. thats a hard truth and is at the core of the OP
    ...is talking about that hard truth doable in a compassionate way? without hurting feelings?

    your last paragraph mentions morals...
    nobody is talking here about moral high ground....
    are you implying that transsexuals posting about their transitions are staking out some kind of moralistic high ground?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    ...is talking about that hard truth doable in a compassionate way? without hurting feelings? ...
    With some exceptions, those who take exception aren't the people asking. I've had it happen in my own threads, when someone got PO'd on my behalf at someone's response - when I wasn't bothered a bit. I also see the TS members frequently put out - in advance - that they won't be bothered by certain answers.

    Sometimes I think there are two entirely separate conversations going on in this forum. That among the TS members (including the questioners who wind up figuring out they're TS), and the other that contains all the conversation that surrounds the TS-TS dialog ... but which doesn't really affect the substance of the TS dialog except when it derails & closes the thread.

    It's funny to think that I see gentleness, compassion, and guidance for questioners where others see harshness in the same things. Some questioners have their butts kicked, but it's almost always because the BS radar goes off in a major way. Perspectives run deeper than most credit. I had a boss once who conducted an employee survey results review in his management team meeting. When he got to the part about women feeling some level of discrimination in the company, he expressed some surprise that it could occur at all, and then expressed his relief that at least it didn't happen in HIS department (several hundred people). Every last woman in the room burst out laughing. He was floored.

    Like knows like. Gotta tell ya - the non-TS are often amazingly obvious.
    Lea

  8. #33
    Rotten 80's child Nicole Erin's Avatar
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    Yeah I bet it is real nice for those who might be thinking they are TS and then get ran off by the wonderful "advice" of some folks here. I am honestly glad I didn't have some forum to look at back when I was first trying to figure all this out. Back then, I would have been one of those "leaving with tails between legs". And I would have felt horrible and shunned by the TS community. These days, I do not care cause I finally learned I don't need someone telling me how to live.

    Think of the noobs who are still trying to figure it out - they stumble across some Ts board, find a bunch of arguing about what a "real" tranny is with things like "If you don't do this or that, if you don't obsess over your genitals, if you get turned on by any article of clothing, or whatever rubbish, you are not real".

    You know what? I have a certain article of women's clothing that turns me on. I do not obsess over my genitals, and being poor, I cannot afford to do this or that. Yet I live as a woman. I don't give a crap what some post-op or someone with too much spending money thinks.

    I pay no mind to the Qualifiers.

    I am trying to make myself a life in the real world, I care less if some other "real" tranny approves or not. But like i said - had i had the "benefit" of a forum telling me I wasn't real when i was still in the "nervous about buying a dress" stage, I would probably be really f****d up today. Thankfully I was able to figure things out on my own.
    It takes a true Erin to be a pain in the assatar.

  9. #34
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    Thanks Nicole for another "real" side of the picture and discussion. Tough love can be wonderful, "IF" properly delivered. Too tough and a lot of people will just tune it out, or if they can't ignore it they can sometimes be negatively impacted.

  10. #35
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole Erin View Post
    Yet I live as a woman.
    Yes and nobody has anything to say about it because you TRANSITIONED. I used to be at odds with the qualifiers myself, UNTIL I transitioned. There is nobody who can look at me and my life and say I'm not for real because I did the damn Dew, and the same goes for you. We are full time with legal name changes, legal acceptance, and legal protections because we are right out there in the open.

    Now what if somebody is talking incessantly about 'the' transition and also talks about getting turned on by clothes, and also makes mention of enjoying the twig and berries? Are they TS or not? Personally I think prolly not, but who cares what I think, they can shut me up forever by just doing one simple thing; Transition. Somewhere along the way I got lumped in with the 'qualifiers' which is funny because my website opens with my feelings on how personal your transition is and how it should be done your own way. I have zero interest in being the tranny arbiter, my message is simply a call to action. Just do it already, or not, but living in limbo isn't really living.

    So nowadays, nobody says I'm not a real tranny anymore. I've moved on to not being a real woman. ;-)

    I think the real lesson here is what I will now call the BadTranny Paradox; You gain acceptance from the trans community, by not seeking acceptance from the trans community. My goal has always been to be accepted as a woman by the world at large. I never gave, and still don't give a damn about what the trans community thinks about me. In fact, I believe anybody who needs the respect of the 'community' needs to seriously examine their motives for transition. ...ooops there I go again. ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by STACY B
    At least there is social acceptance in being a drunk in our world. Hell I was good at it too.
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  11. #36
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    No-one is trying to tell you how to live your life, Kathryn. On the other hand, the fact that you were more fortunate than others in this forum with your ability to earn big bucks does not make you any better or any worse than someone who had to take a lower paid job or even someone who used up all their savings after their employer laid off several hundred people.
    Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.

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  12. #37
    Senior Member Debglam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole Erin View Post
    Yeah I bet it is real nice for those who might be thinking they are TS and then get ran off by the wonderful "advice" of some folks here. I am honestly glad I didn't have some forum to look at back when I was first trying to figure all this out. Back then, I would have been one of those "leaving with tails between legs". And I would have felt horrible and shunned by the TS community. These days, I do not care cause I finally learned I don't need someone telling me how to live. . .
    Damn I wish there were a "Like" button! I LOVE this Nicole! The other forum I mention makes you identify "what" you are in order to join. I really had no idea WTF I "was" but whatever I selected made me a whipping boy/girl for those post op princesses. How dare I ask questions! Fortunately, as a former boxer of dubious success, I am quite used to having the snot knocked out of me! Hurt bad nonetheless!

    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    So nowadays, nobody says I'm not a real tranny anymore. I've moved on to not being a real woman. ;-)
    Misty my friend, I can beat that! I'm considered not a real tranny, not a real woman, AND not a real man! So much for the "middle path" but I am so flipping happy for the first time in my life that I just don't give a crap! (Thanks and I hope I get to see you soon!)

    Hugs,
    Debby
    Debby

  13. #38
    Silver Member kellycan27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    No-one is trying to tell you how to live your life, Kathryn. On the other hand, the fact that you were more fortunate than others in this forum with your ability to earn big bucks does not make you any better or any worse than someone who had to take a lower paid job or even someone who used up all their savings after their employer laid off several hundred people.
    I didn't see where KM implied that she was better than someone else because she had more money. What I saw was KM addressing the comment that Nicole made about people with enough money to fully transition .. Sounds a little sour grape- ish to me. Why even throw in the " money" comment to begin with?
    "one day I'll fly away..... leave all this to yesterday"

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  14. #39
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    the strawman lives!!! go ahead and beat up the strawman...its fun and most importantly its mindlessly easy..

    i honestly don't get it...what are you people talking about? i hit alot of home runs when i was just tossing the ball up myself and whacking at it...that's all it is...you are whacking at pitches you are tossing to yourself...

    the question was can you discuss difficult issues with compassion and honesty?...can you read a post from someone fantasizing about going all the way to womanhood and push them to get serious without being a jerk...

    and for the umpteenth time it devolves into whining about not getting affirmation from the tranny police...grow up.

    does being sincerely challenged about a meaningful life issue scare you so much that you can't discuss it without feeling all beat up??

    really if we are all so awful why are you here?? what do you want from me?? just tell me what to say and i'll say it..will that help?

  15. #40
    ghost Anne2345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    That is some of the tough love and compassion that would actually do some good around here. It is so easy to play girl but it is hard doing what you need to do if you are transsexual. Never forget that.
    Never forget that it can be hard just simply being human, Kathryn.

    And if I am indeed but merely playing girl, I do not consider that to be easy, either. In fact, I do not consider anything I have done over the past year and a half or so to be easy. To be certain, playing man is becoming harder, less palatable, and more untenable with each passing month.

    Yes, you have been there, done that, and know that which you speak about. But you were not always this way. True, you worked very hard to make your life work, and you apparently have done a bang up job. Don't forget, though, what's it's like to be one of us when we seek support and answers from one such as you. Tough love certainly has it's place in this forum, but no one person here is the end-all be-all of all things tranny.

  16. #41
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne2345 View Post

    Tough love certainly has it's place in this forum, but no one person here is the end-all be-all of all things tranny.
    It sure seems from the responses on this thread that most of us feel this way.

  17. #42
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    I'm liking the badtranny paradox.

  18. #43
    Rotten 80's child Nicole Erin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    And again, no one tells you how to live and who you are unless you ask. If you do, don't find the answers tough just because they tell you something you don't want to hear.
    By the way, most people with too much spending money worked hard to have too much spending money. Your attempt at invalidating people who can pay for surgery is ridiculous, or are you telling me how to live now?
    I am not in the habit of asking peoples' opinions of me. Not once have i said, "Hmm, Joe or Jane might not approve of what I do, I better stop now as to not disappoint them". Although if someone wants to tell me how chic my outfit is, let us talk

    Am I telling you how to live? Let me address that - alright so I am guessing you went thru whatever. Why not then start just living life instead of obsessing over all this long-winded philosophical (stuff)? There is a life beyond worrying about trannying.

    I am not a "True TS" I don't think. I am a true pain in the butt and a true narcissist though.

    Edit -
    "Tough love certainly has it's place in this forum, but no one person here is the end-all be-all of all things tranny." HAHAHAH well, that is one way to put it. "All things tranny"
    Also, with tough love - I thought that involved such things as a "safe word".
    It takes a true Erin to be a pain in the assatar.

  19. #44
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Let's get tjhis thread back on track

    Right folks, you have had your little detour about whether someone earns too much or works hard or whatever.

    Now it's time to get this thread back on track and to discuss the merits / downsides of "tough love" versus compassion when dealing with someone who is questioning.

    Any further discussion about "too much money" versus "worked two (or more) jobs" will be deleted.

    Rianna Humble
    Moderator, Transsexual Forums

  20. #45
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    Okay it looks like we averted a Battle Royale there.

    Okay, so thanks for the great replies! What I've learned is you all have different approaches to answering the question "Am I TS?". They seem to compliment each other for the most part. I've learned that it doesn't matter if you're a middlepather, preop, or postop women we can all try to help out.

    Here's my worry though.. what if we get it wrong? What if they are truly TS and this is the first and only place they have asked? I mean it's easier to ask anonymously in a forum like this. It would be interesting to see how many times we got it wrong.

    As for tough love it does work because I rarely posted in this section until I was diagnosed and sure of that diagnosis. I now see I should be able to answer questions that I can relate to in this section too. I mean people can just ignore me anyways!

  21. #46
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    if you get it wrong that's on you...that's tough love...
    i had to answer that question...melissa had to..kathryn had to... nicole had to...anne had to...lea had to...and thousands of others had to...etcetc... now you all have to...

    doctors and therapists are just trained guessers... being diagnosed at ts is no more helpful to me than having my best friends tell me i'm ts...i was diagnosed as NOT TS...TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....ugh

    that's the whole point...who the F am i to tell you what you should or shouldn't do... but i know stuff..andi've seen stuff...and i did it by actions and by sharing information so i could make my own decisions...dont you want to benefit from the collective experience of other people? (whether its lovingly doled out with warm fuzzies or blasted in your face)

    call yourself ts when you are not, or ignore the fact that you are at your own peril....thats a fact.

    if you believe or know yourself to be ts and don't transition...then one price you pay is that you have to work harder at being confident in your own self assessment because both cisgender and transsexual people will not always reflect your true gender...
    you get the benefit of never really having to face jumping off a ledge, but you lose the certainty of knowing and getting what you know fed back to you 24/7... that's just the way it is...

    if the internal knowing isnt enough for you, your gender dysphoria will fester and grow...and the chips will fall....
    if you continue to live a "ts lifestyle" it will dawn on you over time that you have given up alot for something that wasnt worth it...and the chips will fall...

    and they will fall on you and everyone around you...as steph and so many others say...it sucks...

    ...

    and what really really amazes me sometimes is that there are so many people here that "won" this battle....i won the battle..and i'm proud of it... we know what it means to transition...we know what it costs..and we know what we gave up for it...
    and i know what its like to be "unaffirmed"
    ...when i told people i masturbated about being a girl they all waved me off...but i kept at it...slowly but surely i found people that shared my experience...and it taught me something about myself...

    over and over we are attacked and questioned for just trying to share things we learned simply because we make people uncomfortable with how they are living their own lives...

    btw..
    how do you think it feels to someone that transitioned even tho they had young daughters to hear that "i didnt transition because I care about my family"....
    you don't hear me whining about the lack of affirmation i get around loving my daughters.
    Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 03-08-2013 at 11:19 AM.

  22. #47
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marleena View Post
    Here's my worry though.. what if we get it wrong?
    One thing I try to do (and I really should do it more often) is this - when in doubt, be quiet and listen. Not everyone needs my advice, whether I think I have the answer or not. Sometimes people just need to figure things out for themselves.

    It's the basis of personal growth, and it usually works pretty well when somebody's trying to get from here to there.
    I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.

  23. #48
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marleena View Post
    Here's my worry though.. what if we get it wrong? What if they are truly TS and this is the first and only place they have asked?
    If you get it wrong and take the wrong path you are screwed whatever that path may be.

    If you are truly TS this is never going to be the only place you would have asked. You cannot build a life on a website which is populated by anonymous posters with very few exceptions. If you do, you do so at your own risk.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  24. #49
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marleena View Post
    Here's my worry though.. what if we get it wrong? What if they are truly TS and this is the first and only place they have asked?
    In the majority of cases, responses I see to someone who is questioning are couched in terms such as "It seems to me" or "If I understand correctly ...", but we do not set ourselves up as qualified medical practitioners able to give advice based purely on postings in these forums.

    I am not saying that we never read someone wrongly, but what is offered here is usually sincerely meant advice based upon personal experience, plus the usual mantras of
    • "Consult a qualified gender specialist",
    • "don't transition unless you need to",
    • "the only person who can truly say whether you are TS is you yourself"
    Even if someone is "truly TS" (horrible phrase) that does not mean that their Gender Dysphoria is necessarily at the point where they absolutely have to transition. Once the dysphoria becomes acute enough, they will seek further help.
    Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.

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  25. #50
    Rotten 80's child Nicole Erin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    doctors and therapists are just trained guessers... being diagnosed at ts is no more helpful to me than having my best friends tell me i'm ts...i was diagnosed as NOT TS...TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....ugh
    It doesn't matter if you were "diagnosed" as TS or not. You decided you need to live as a woman and you took the steps to do so. Doctors' diagnose doesn't always mean much. If they were always right, my mom would not be with us anymore, about a year ago they gave her 6 months to live and she is alive and kicking.

    If someone needs something to think about when trying to figure out if they are TS or not -
    Tell them if they just like to dress en femme now and then for sexual fun or comfort, so be it. If they decide they need to live as a woman all the time then they should investigate the risks and possibilities. No one needs to be reminded that it will be awkward. We all pretty much figure that out on our own when thinking "Hmm, if my family knew I was living as a woman..."

    You don't need a doctor to tell you if you want to live as a woman or just do the fun parts when you have time. Point is, give the newcomers the facts instead of saying "Well, if you are not willing to do this or that, you are not worthy of the TS label."

    I don't need a label.
    It takes a true Erin to be a pain in the assatar.

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