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Thread: Am I TS? Tough love or compassion?

  1. #76
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    Chelsea, your struggle seems to be at a very acute stage and time will tell which path you ultimately choose (or which path will choose you). And while I understand what you are saying about transition seeming to be selfish and that you are doing what you are doing for the sake of your wife and child, I'm sure you don't intend that the opposite POV be conveyed. Transition is not inherently selfish and under your circumstances (or under mine), it is not to suggest that those who make the decision to transition are thinking any less of their families.

    Instead, transition (or not to do so) is a very personal endeavor that should consider all variables in one's life. Making a personal & informed decision is not by definition selfish.

    I'm glad to see you are back here communicating again Chelsea.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
    Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)

  2. #77
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    to me chelsea you are just doing the same thing you've done over the months...you are stuck in a self pity/self loathing type loop... you are putting obstacles in front of every option and not living in the day to day moment...you need progress in any direction

    you are not selfish...if anything you were selfish to get married, but that ship has sailed (Mine sailed too)...i'm guessing if you are like me, you never ever thought of yourself as being in this position and truely love your wife...so forgive yourself and move on..
    talking about whether its selfish or not is just avoiding the issue..

    when people promise their wives to not transition, its an empty promise
    ...you can say you have no current plan to transition (Assuming its true) , and you'll do everything to avoid it, you being realistic is important....
    ..but once the bell is rung its not going to help you much to make promises..its just going to make you feel more trapped..
    and this feeling you have will never improve...and you'll break your promise and its a worse outcome than before..

    if you are going to be "not selfish" and stay with your family, and "keep" your daughter, what good is that if you are miserable, depressed and unable to be a productive helpful dad/husband?
    what are you doing to make yourself productive and constructive in others lives?? whats going on at work?? can you continue to function there?? are you risking that without knowing it (this happens all the time)..

    this one's more tough love vs sara's very compassionate response (to keep it on topic)

  3. #78
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    ,I see it differently..Kaitlyn has no firm proof that Chelsea must transition in order to be happy.Chelsea has a "wife problem"caused in part by blindsiding her wife all the while knowing for years how she probably viewed gender issues,let alone her SO's NEW gender issue! Things are unsettled in that household in many ways.I suspect that a lot of them could be adjusted and perhaps if Chelsea were to be accepted by family and have the freedom to be true to herself,blowing up the household[the tough love approach suggested" MAY not be necessary. Kaitlyn,you have written a bunch of times that a person MAY NOT BE TS,just cause they say they are,so why the extreme measures with possibly a semicloseted crossdresser?
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 03-14-2013 at 12:23 AM. Reason: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/faq.php?faq=main_rules#faq_content

  4. #79
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    my note was sincere and my point is the same regardless of whether this is about transsexualism or not....being miserable about gender is something that impacts both transsexuals and crossdressers...both make promises to wives that they cannot and do not keep..
    both ts and cd's get so caught up in how they are feeling, and so caught up in doing anything to save their marraige that it renders them blind to the impact they are having and how they are their own worst enemies.

    its the constant negative circling thinking that needs to stop...

    what is extreme about pushing attention in a positive direction?
    Me saying "what are you doing to make yourself productive and constructive in others lives" was a question...it was not rhetorical...
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 03-14-2013 at 12:24 AM. Reason: reference to deleted quote removed

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle.M View Post
    Okaaay . . .



    . . . but that's utter nonsense and you know it. Please present the link or source of that "study" that you "read" or I'm gonna have to call this for what it probably is - a bold face lie.

    That "transsexual as gay" nonsense is an unqualified generality used by the religious right (among others) to misinform the public and delegitimize the struggle of transgender people to simply live honest and authentic lives. You should be ashamed of yourself for bringing that nonsense here.
    link o he full text
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2894986/
    Arch Sex Behav. 2011 April; 40(2): 247–257.
    Published online 2009 December 29. doi: 10.1007/s10508-009-9579-2
    PMCID: PMC2894986
    NIHMSID: NIHMS172372
    A Further Assessment of Blanchard’s Typology of Homosexual Versus Non-Homosexual or Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria
    Larry Nuttbrock,corresponding author Walter Bockting, Mona Mason, Sel Hwahng, Andrew Rosenblum, Monica Macri, and
    Measured categorically, 68.5%, 12.4%, 16.8%, and 2.1% of the 571 MTFs were classified as homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or asexual, respectively. Measured along the continuous scale of androphilia, 8.6%were low,19.1%were intermediate, and 71.8% were high. Measured along the continuous scale of gynephilia, 63.7% were low, 20.8% were intermediate, and 14.7% were high.

    I was in error about the percent which seems to be 76%
    Current scientific controversies: different treatment strategies section of this paper
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/?tool=pubmed
    Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2008 November; 105(48): 834–841.
    Published online 2008 November 28. doi: 10.3238/arztebl.2008.0834
    All of the 21 patients who received a new diagnosis of GID in our clinic up to mid-2008 (aged 5 to 17; 12 boys, 9 girls) had psychopathological abnormalities that, in many cases, led to the diagnosis of additional psychiatric disorders. As a rule, there were also major psychopathological abnormalities in their parents. The "motive for switching" among the 15 adolescents in the group was mainly a rejected (egodystonic) homosexual orientation (see figure), the development of which would have been arrested by puberty-blocking treatments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    Busker, I'm sorry, I cannot accept your redefinition of what makes someone transsexual. We do not "become transsexual" by doing something, we are born transsexual.

    There is a debate amongst some post-op trans women about whether they can just drop the "trans" appellation and I do not wish to engage with that debate, but you are wrong about post-ops never returning to this site - some have contributed to this very thread.

    As someone who declares themself "just a crossdresser", you are probably right that you cannot know what it is to be a woman, but those of us who are women (albeit for pre-ops and non-ops with a body that does not match) things are different. In general we cannot truly know what it is to be a man.
    This would suggest otherwise
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/?tool=pubmed
    Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2008 November; 105(48): 834–841.
    Published online 2008 November 28. doi: 10.3238/arztebl.2008.0834

    Neurobiological genetic research has not yet convincingly shown any predominant role for genetic or hormonal factors in the etiology of GID (1).
    Even among children who manifest a major degree of discomfort with their own sex, including an aversion to their own genitalia (GID in the strict sense), only a minority go on to an irreversible development of transsexualism (6). Irreversibility of the manifestations, however, is considered to be an indispensable requirement before the diagnosis of transsexualism can be made, or any body-altering treatments initiated. In England and Canada, in accordance with this view, hormonal treatment or surgery is not recommended until the patient’s somatic and psychosexual development is complete.
    . Though prospective studies are lacking, a consensus of opinion holds that gender identity disorders in children and adolescents are often associated with serious emotional and behavioral problems and with a high psychiatric comorbidity (1, 8)
    Multiple publications have concerned a possible traumatic etiology of gender identity disorders (14) and an overlap of the psychopathological findings in GID with those of borderline personality disorder (15, e11, e12, e13), although there is some controversy on the latter point (16). A profound disturbance of the mother-child relationship can often be empirically demonstrated and is postulated to be a causative factor (e14).
    Other authors, in line with psychoanalytic theory, do not attribute the desire to belong to the opposite sex to any prior trauma. Rather, they postulate the formation of a classic neurotic compromise, in which the child symbolically achieves a symbiotic fusion with the loved parent by switching genders

    The irreversability is only diagnosed after one reaches puberty so it seems that one cannot be born a transsexual but one can be born with GID.
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 03-12-2013 at 03:27 PM. Reason: You should know better that to multi post
    JUST a crossdresser

  6. #81
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    The irreversability is only diagnosed after one reaches puberty so it seems that one cannot be born a transsexual but one can be born with GID.
    How you draw that conclusion from the research is hard to follow. How does the time at which the irreversability has been diagnosed determine when the condition started to exist. Your conclusion is not supported at all. The correct conclusion would be that transsexualism as a condition only occurs in 2.5 - 20 % of those cases reviewed by this paper. Since you cannot diagnose irreversibility until onset of puberty the existence of the condition cannot be conclusively diagnosed until that time. It has nothing to do with whether you were born with it or not.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  7. #82
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    my note was sincere and can even stand the bad paraphrasing used to make a point....

    and my point is the same regardless of whether this is about transsexualism or not....being miserable about gender is something that impacts both transsexuals and crossdressers...both make promises to wives that they cannot and do not keep..
    both ts and cd's get so caught up in how they are feeling, and so caught up in doing anything to save their marraige that it renders them blind to the impact they are having and how they are their own worst enemies.

    its the constant negative circling thinking that needs to stop...

    what is extreme about pushing attention in a positive direction?
    Me saying "what are you doing to make yourself productive and constructive in others lives" was a question...it was not rhetorical...
    I really do agree with you on this one and I am sorry that I didn't mention the productive and constructive part..I have said it before that some people enjoy a "pity party" rather than take the steps to possibly make the situation better. If someone doesn't take the bold steps to include their offspring into the picture and really teach all of them about understanding"their Dad's new problem" then they aren't really committed.All this self pity is just a dramatic show as I see it.

  8. #83
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    busker its good you are posting in this particular thread...why you read posts here is beyond me tho...

    you are a good example of why both tough love and compassion are so important to transsexual women...

    we are marginalized, dehumanized and disbelieved
    ...invalidated over and over by cisgender people like you...

    the humanity of living as a transsexual is incomprehensible to cisgender people.....its incomprehensible to you
    what could possibly motivate you to come to this forum? this particular thread? why are you here? are you hoping to convince me that perhaps i'm just a gay man??

    you will never believe in us so that's your issue...but despite your earlier assertion to Marleena about qualifications, we are qualified to share our experience

    ..over many years we have learned to communicate amongst ourselves to fight the fight with a medical community that only very slowly accepted and validated our problem as something worth solving..the conversations we have here are the same ones girls had in the 60's and 70's over kitchen tables after driving half way around the country to meet just one doctor or one person that truly understands...

    ... and the medical community continues to kick and scream as evidenced by the twisted interpretations of a study...

  9. #84
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    . . . Blanchard’s Typology of Homosexual Versus Non-Homosexual or Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria
    First, thank you for providing the source.

    Second, Blanchard's "research" has been exposed as flawed, and that's putting it mildly. Blanchard has been debunked by the psychiatric community for his faulty scientific research methodology aimed at pathologizing transsexual people.

    He started with an agenda that divided male-to-female transsexual people into two different groups: "homosexual transsexuals" who seek reassignment surgery to romantically and sexually attract other, ideally heterosexual, men, and "autogynephilic transsexuals" who are sexually aroused at the idea of having a female body. Although this makes distinctions between transsexuals it does not place any of these distinctions in any sort of context. In short, he reduces all of our relationships to paraphilia, and no notions of gender identity are entertained or tolerated.

    As further evidence of his haphazard process you might notice that he did no work at all with transmen.

    It has been suggested that his "research" was largely aimed at satisfying his own transgender fetish; his findings are very much in vogue with fetishists.

    Scientific criticism of his "research" and theory argues that his theory is incomplete and poorly representative of MtF transsexual people, reduces gender identity to a matter of attraction, is non-instructive, and that the research cited in support of the theory has inadequate control groups or is contradicted by other data.

    Another note - his theories have led to support for reparation or conversion therapy which itself has been debunked to the point where not only is it not practiced by legitimate therapists it is actually illegal in many jurisdictions.

    His disciple Ken Zucker followed Blanchard's methodology and, long story short, was eventually disciplined by the university where he worked and essentially warehoused by shifting most of his courses to another department within the university and leaving him with nothing to do and no opportunities to publish, thus effectively ending his career. Similar fates have befallen others who have followed in his footsteps.

    In short, he remains at odds with the psychiatric community and his efforts to pathologize transgenderism in the previous DSM have been overturned in the soon-to-be-published version. His ideas are, at best, antiquated and have been superseded by more advanced studies and legitimate, productive therapies.
    I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.

  10. #85
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    @ Busker please read this: http://www.wpath.org/documents/IJT%20SOC,%20V7.pdf It should give you more clarity and is considered the holy grail for treating TG/TS people world wide. I can tell you that the studies and papers by Blanchard are dismissed here in Canada as antiquated, biased and flawed. He has no credibility.

  11. #86
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    Re: Tough Love or Compassion (or a bit of both...)

    Regarding Chelea's situation, it was mentioned that the wife was recently blindsided and as such, I think it's fair to assume that Chelsea herself is also in that acute phase of identity in that coping with the weight of it all is quite new. Transition might be in the cards, just as holding to a middle path could be. But until there is peace in the decision making process, either choice will likely be met with a counter-balance of misery to some degree.

    A certain amount of resolve is needed no matter which path someone takes for it to be sustainable. I truly think that both emotion and enormity are interfering with the prospects of making that important long-term decision any time soon. I totally agree with Kaitlyn in that misery as a male is not an acceptable option. Now does not seem like the best time to commit long-term to existing in both worlds.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
    Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    you will never believe in us so that's your issue...but despite your earlier assertion to Marleena about qualifications, we are qualified to share our experience
    Thanks Kaitlyn. I feel more comfortable on sharing my own feelings and experiences although they are quite limited compared to many of you. Then there is always the "ignore" button if one chooses to use it on me.

  13. #88
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    busker its good you are posting in this particular thread...why you read posts here is beyond me tho...
    Kaitlyn, I am SO glad you posed that idea. After reading that I asked the same thing.

    Busker, I have finally figured out why you're here and what makes you tick.

    You and I have had a few exchanges like this before and each time you post like this you display what I used to think was profound ignorance, but now I realize that I was wrong.

    You've got an agenda.

    You said in another post that you identify as gay, and your signature line says that you're a crossdresser. You continually post remarks that have all the earmarks of being heavily influenced by $**male porn. You rely on garbage research that only serves to support your own sense that YOU may suffer from "autogynephilia" (a diagnosis which is of itself a garbage doctrine) because it supports your view of transwomen. And because it seems to be true for your own life you do everything you can to vicariously transfer all of these attributes to the members of this site.

    As a result you objectify and fetishize us, and then you put up a fight whenever we we start exhibiting signs of humanity and act like normal, straight (for many, but not for all of us - and not that it matters, but it's different than you), sane and real people who are not preoccupied with kinky sex, and that just blows the whole illusion that you value so much.

    And now it makes sense! You have a tranny fetish and so you hang out where the girls are, and you simply can't accept that we're not like you and that we don't fit your fetishized view of us.

    That's it! You're a therapy case who hangs out here in the same way that pedophiles lurk at playgrounds. I can't believe I never figured this out before!
    Last edited by Michelle.M; 03-12-2013 at 11:09 AM.
    I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.

  14. #89
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    Tough Love needed

    Thanks for all (or most) of the replies.

    As so often before I sit here thinking and I am resolved to move forward and transition. I have a time-line, I know what surgeries I want, I have work all ready and prepared to transition me as female when I go 100%.

    I am admitting to my wife I can't exist as a male any longer. I think I could present as male for a while longer while I transition and allow my daughter to be a little older before we tell her, but I'm not convinced that is the best plan. My therapist thinks keeping this from my 12 year old is best for a few years, but I just don't really know. She already senses the stress and tension so....

    I can't not be me. I can be both for a while longer as longer while I transition but this going back and forth is so hard. I know it's going to end my marriage. My wife can't even tolerate if I dress at home alone. If she even thinks I've been Chelsea she gets very upset. I don't blame her, but I was hoping she could come to accept it eventually in some way. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

    I have to talk to my therapist about my being very frank with my wife and see if that is the best route. I have been following my therapist's guidance with regards to my wife, but I think a change in direction is in order. After couple's therapy my wife was visibly upset and hasn't spoken to me since. We discussed my sexual orientation, which I have discovered is more fluid than she would like. My dreams are always with me as a woman and at times with a man (mostly non-sexual). I have never had anything intimate, in my dreams, with a man unless I'm a woman. I suppose that is why I have never been fond of sex.

    So, tough love or compassion? I think I find they both exist here and both are equally necessary.

  15. #90
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    that's huge progress chelsea...especially recognizing that the situation is already fraught with tension and stress...

    in the short term even baby steps can have a huge benefit to your own feelings which will flow through to everyone else...that's what i mean by doing constructive things...

    sometimes by concentrating on real and tangible steps (And that includes the workplace) it can focus the mind...you can make a plan..feel like you have a future ..reduce your own stress and get the satisfaction of progress ...and you can flow that back to others by how you act day to day...people will notice your better frame of mind and it makes a hard situation just a little less hard..

  16. #91
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    Progress for me, but for my wife - not so much.

    I expect some turbulent times over the next few weeks. I expect she is going to look on it as my refusal to suppress myself and that I've chosen "me" over family. I'm bracing myself. But I can't lead her on and I cannot continue to be this unhappy and depressed.

    I went out today (as me, Chelsea) for lunch and to pick up some new tights. I feel so much freer and more at peace. One thing that makes me go "hummmm" is since I started tucking (well over a year ago), I have found that is the only way my "man" bits are comfortable - up and out of the way. I look so forward to GRS.

  17. #92
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    whoa!

    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle.M View Post
    Kaitlyn

    You've got an agenda. Sorry to disappoint you but NO.

    You said in another post that you identify as gay, You rely on garbage research
    Wrong on all counts. I don't have an agenda, not gay (show me the thread please) The National Institutes of Health don't sponsor garbage medical studies, the studies were NOT Blanchard but a NEW study by Nuttbrock (2012 published) done in NY state 25 years later (not in Canada)--obviously you did not read the study or all 20 pages,, the other study published in Germany 2008. The German's definitely don't go in for nonsense medical studies.

    And in fact, the only reason I replied to Marleena's post was that I thought is was in the CD section where she usually posts ,and didn't realize that when I pressed "today's posts" I also got everything if I was logged in. Only after I had replied did I see where it was. sorry to disappoint you. I never come here intentionally because I know what happens.
    If I have anything that bothers me, it is the rudeness that you express. I'm sorry if you are offended, but I do trust medical studies as I'm no expert in anything. Relying on one's intuition isn't a good substitute. It tends to lead in circles.
    It will be a cold day in hates before I return to this section.
    JUST a crossdresser

  18. #93
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    This is apt.

    Please take the time to watch this. It only takes four minutes.





    @3:41 - (replace philosophy with trans + a suffix of your choice):

    Onlooker: You are TRIVIALIZING philosophy!

    Wittgenstein (angrily): Philosophy is just a by-product of misunderstanding language! Why don't you realize that!

    Onlooker: Oh dear. He can't bear disagreement, can he.
    Reine

  19. #94
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    Reine: I like that video, spot on.

  20. #95
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    The German's definitely don't go in for nonsense medical studies.
    Oh honey I wish I could agree with you. I am German by extraction and Germans can research the same nonsense as any other nationality. They just look more serious when they do it.

    By the way Blanchard hypothesis on autogynephilia was published in 1989 so that would make it 23 years.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  21. #96
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    the thing that makes the studies nonsense is the NO nonsense truth that practically every transitioned transsexual woman looks at them and shakes her head in total incomprehension...

    that's because we transitioned...

    that's because we found in transition that it had nothing to do with our sexuality or some supposed mental illness... and btw that does not preclude the idea of sexualizing oneself as a transsexual, it doesnt preclude that many of us suffer all kinds of secondary issues...

    the perspective of the study is cisgender ...its colored by the cisgender bias that we don't really exist...i mean how could we? it makes no sense...so to the cisgender person, sense must be made of us ...

  22. #97
    . Aprilrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busker View Post
    It will be a cold day in hates before I return to this section.
    tell me that's a promise!

  23. #98
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    I think it is spelled with a "d" rather than a "t",but perhaps he was too focused on the word "hate" to get it right! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by ChelseaErtel View Post

    I went out today (as me, Chelsea) for lunch and to pick up some new tights. I feel so much freer and more at peace. One thing that makes me go "hummmm" is since I started tucking (well over a year ago), I have found that is the only way my "man" bits are comfortable - up and out of the way. I look so forward to GRS.
    There are many people on this diverse forum whose existance is not "penis based".There are many that feel better in the "tucked position" and some even employ duct tape to do so,as they enjoy it that much..However,all of that is a long way from genital surgery and all that goes with it.Being at peace and happy being yourself while you are out and about is no indication that you will be happier with permanent life changes.You have so much baggage to shed along with the guilt from doing so,it is doubtful to some of us that your plan will really bring happiness to you for the rest of your life.
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 03-13-2013 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Multiposts will be merged

  24. #99
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    I think that qualifies as tough love.

    Is it a full moon today by any chance?
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 03-14-2013 at 12:26 AM. Reason: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/faq.php?faq=main_rules#faq_content

  25. #100
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChelseaErtel View Post
    Reine: I like that video, spot on.
    @3:02 - Replace "pain" with "trans + the suffix of your choice":
    Quote Originally Posted by Wittgenstein
    It makes no sense to speak of knowing something in a context where we cannot possibly doubt it. Therefore to say, "I know I am in pain" is entirely senseless. When you want to know the meaning of a word, don't look inside yourself, look at the uses of the word in our way of life. Look at how we behave.
    Therefore all the argument about who is TS and who is not is rather meaningless. A transwoman is a transwoman by virtue of what she does (lives all aspects of her life as a woman) and not by what she says or intends. One's intentions can last a lifetime without culminating in any action.

    It does not matter to me whether someone's motive to transition is rooted in severe GID or a euphoric desire to live an idealized or sexual life as a woman. Once the decision is made, the body altered, the name changed, the life altered, the transwoman is living her life as a woman. If she has made a mistake, she will soon know it and no one but herself will suffer the consequences. No therapist or counselor, and certainly none of us here can peer so deeply into someone's mind and heart to determine what will make this person happy in the long run.

    We are complex creatures.

    So why all this arguing? The only real danger is perhaps encouraging someone to transition who may not be TS.
    Last edited by ReineD; 03-13-2013 at 02:35 PM.
    Reine

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The crossdressing community is one that needs to stick together and continue to be there for each other for whatever one needs.
We are always trying to improve the forum to better serve the crossdresser in all of us.

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