"I am Trans, but I am scared to do anything about it."

[Kathryn Martin]

Kaitelyn, while I understand the point you are trying to make, the typology of Harry Benjamin is fairly clearly circumscribed. There are certain conditions that must be met to be a Type 6 or 5 transsexual, and it requires "the request for a conversion operation is typical only for the transsexual and can actually serve as definition." He then classifies those that request but not require "conversion operation" as Type 4 transsexuals. Type 5 are those that require the surgery but have it later in life, because the intensity of the need is less and a life can be maintained for a period without the surgery. Type 6 transsexuals are those that have their surgery early (latest in their 20s) or commit suicide.

Type 1-4 were considered by Benjamin as not transsexual, with Type 4 being borderline if the intensity is on the higher side. It is not uncommon that Type 4 can have the operation but often end up socially not being able to maintain a life.

He did not consider transsexuality as a mental disorder. In fact the paper by Pauly in which he developed the concept of complete psycho-sexual inversion makes it clear that Pauly and Benjamin believed that there was an underlying organic reason this. The brain sex was different. (see also Milton Diamond).

[Angela Campbell]

Thank you Melissa, I see it is not unheard of. I knew from my earliest memories I should have a girls body and didn't, but in those days I thought there was nothing that could be done. As I grew older I handled it pretty well until the last year or so and it seems to be getting more intense, maybe because I know more now than I did, and know some who are going through it and see it is a possibility. I am worried that it will get worse and more intense and become something more than what it is now. It is not now and so far has not ever been crippling but I have fears that it could become that way.

[Kathryn Martin]

Again, consider Benjamin's writings about Type 3:

The second inception of transvestism is not fetishistic but in all probability the result of an inborn or early acquired transsexual trend of "latent" character. (S.O.S. III). Those patients (like true transsexuals), invariably date the beginning of their deviation to
earliest childhood. "As long as I can remember, I wanted to be a girl" is a frequent part of their history. While it is quite possible that such statements may merely express the wish that it may be so, most evidence gained not only from patients but also from relatives points to the fact that transvestitic tendencies, in the great majority of all cases, were noted in the first five or six years of the child's life.

[Michelle.M]

People want so bad to be TS for some reason.

Oh, of course they do! If your dues are current you get great hotel and car rental discounts when you show your membership card!

I just thought I should quote this from Benjamin's book "the Transsexual Phenomeneon" . It is enlightening . . . This may help with the discussion.

It is enlightening, and it does help the discussion. I think.

Which leads me to the question - what is the point of this discussion? I mean, I'm not saying that we shouldn't be having the discussion, I'm just wondering why we are.

I believe that everyone who is wrestling with any sort of gender identity issues should define themselves in some way that is helpful to them [if you're a tranny and you know it clap your hands?]. But if someone defines herself as TS and by clinical definition she's not (thank you, Kathryn - I am also a fan of Dr Benjamin's work), then who cares?

Well, for one, her therapist would care, but she'd be the one helping to define the patient's state with a competent diagnosis. A surgeon would care, assuming she were seeking an ultimate surgical intervention. And anyone else who's a stakeholder in trans health or trans issues would also care. But if it's just her and if she calls herself TS and doesn't actually fit the criteria then she's deluded. And as long as she's deluded in her own little world she's OK, right?

But if she chews through her leash and gets loose and begins to make pronouncements about trans issues and the state of the transgender world and the issues that affect the community without actually being a bona fide TS then it would follow that she'd be subject to criticism, if not outright censure, from those who are walking their talk and making the journey. But that's a separate issue, as we have seen people who are actually in transition make all sorts of stupid statements and then get called on them. Clearly that problem is not mitigated by proper diagnoses or definitions.

But otherwise, why do we care who calls themselves what? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm really curious to know what the desired end state of this debate is.

[famousunknown]

I think of one girl I know who just refuses to ever go see people like her. She refuses to take any steps, meet any people, talk about her problem. It's just such a shame. She will live a limited and possibly unfulfilled life from here on out. She is over 50. She is so fearful that she will lose even one thing precious to her that she just remains in her cocoon. Looking through a translucent protective shell at the outside world. A cocoon that makes her feel safe, but yet, makes her long for what could be...out there.

There are many, exactly like your friend, who can't, for one reason or the other - do anything about it.

[Kathryn Martin]

But otherwise, why do we care who calls themselves what? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm really curious to know what the desired end state of this debate is.

The reason is really quite simple. It determines the health care needs. If you want to ensure health care for transsexuals become properly available the distinction is crucial. By conflating the two conditions most governments make decisions on coverage based on prevalence rates. In Canada the prevalence rates of Type 5 and 6 transsexuals is approximately 1000 in a population of 30 million.

If you apply gender variance prevalence rates you would be more in the 60000 range. The result is that based on the latter number policy decisions are made to not cover surgery because it would place an unsustainable burden on the health care system and it's funding.

Likewise, treatment of gender variant persons is entirely different in nature and is not offered because it is considered still to be some sort of moral failure, which of course it nonsense.

Benjamin describes this like this:

The transvestite (TV) usually wants to be left alone. He requests nothing from the medical profession, unless he wants a psychiatrist to try to cure him.

The often acute and overwhelming urge to dress can have enormously distressing results on their lives. Their need is more defined by a need for social acceptance and help with the distress as described. It is an entirely different health care need.

That is why I care

[Michelle.M]

But otherwise, why do we care who calls themselves what? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm really curious to know what the desired end state of this debate is.

The reason is really quite simple. It determines the health care needs.

Yes, and I made that point in my post. However, I haven't seen a health care issue or a stakeholder response yet in this thread. We seem to be doing a lot of self-absorbed navel-gazing, and although it's entertaining it doesn't seem to be a very productive conversation. Unless I am missing something, and can anyone tell me what that is?

Again, my question - why do WE care who calls themselves what?

[stefan37]

For me I could care what people call me. I like Kathryn's explanation of not being a transsexual but suffering from transsexualism. I also like Melissa's term transitioner, as that describes me at this point in time. Like Melissa I have never really hated my body and there was a period or two when I was weight lifting and my body reflected that work and I was proud. I have done male centric activities and not only liked them but thrived doing them. same with work.

I own my own contracting business and have no problem working and interacting with others in this male dominated industry. All that said from an early age wished I was born a different gender. I would go through periods of intense distress what crossdressers call pink fog and those activities, combined with generous amounts of substances and alcohol would alleviate my distress. I was able to mitigate my dysphoria and I did not have the term, to me it was intense anxiety.

As of a year ago I was starting to openly express myself and it concerned my wife so much she asked to seek therapy. Well here i am today 10 months on hrt, 14 months electrolysis, and I have the lost the one thing most precious to me, my wife of 33+ years. that is not to say we will not be friends and we own the business together so we still have to be civil as business partners, but the dynamic has changed and I am paying for me at this point the ultimate price of making to decision to transition. But I have made the decision and I in spite of the losses has been the best decision of my life. I have renewed sense of life. My transition is filled with many positive events. I am drug and alcohol free for over 14 months and I am the healthiest mentally and physically than I have ever been. and at 56 that is no small feat. I am extremely proud of who I am and the choice I have made. I have the will, resolve and perseverance to move forward at whatever pace my financial and social circumstances let me and I will reach my end game wherever that may be. Who knows by the time i reach that point I may be dead, but as least I got to live as authentic a life as I possibly can.

Labels be damned

[Michelle.M]

Labels be damned

That's kinda what I was hoping to hear. Otherwise, it's just another episode of "Trannier Than Thou" and none of those threads have yet amounted to anything other than hair pulling and name calling.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

when i transitioned i never once read or discussed the harry benjamin standards.. i realize why they matter, but i never looked at them prior to recently..i don't care very much what they say..

i realize that they have value...they just didn't for me...

the system and the "standards" actually hurt me ...therapists consulted their manuals and told me to be happy jerking off........literally
... so forgive me for not paying homage to the HBS stuff...

and having gone through all of it, i am entightled to a bit of navel gazing..

[Deborah]

I don't want to be a Transsexual I want to be a GG help clear it up a bit?

[kellycan27]

That's kinda what I was hoping to hear. Otherwise, it's just another episode of "Trannier Than Thou" and none of those threads have yet amounted to anything other than hair pulling and name calling.

I got mine ......I don't care what anybody calls themselves.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Long will I tarry, ere I police the boundaries and try to keep others "out of the clique"

In other words, I dislike these threads, always have. Threads like these are one reason I don't participate much in various TS-centric message boards. It all comes down to some people trying to create boundaries of what is and isn't a "Real Transsexual". I will have no part of that.

I was told some years ago, by TS's of my acquaintance, that what truely mattered is how one felt about oneself, and that yes, there were TS's who put their families before transition and that they were still Transsexuals.

Um, in Amanda's defense she wasn't advocating that you wreck your life she was saying that if you feel it, don't fight it. Take the steps necessary to live your life the way you want to live it.

Yes, but she could have made that a bit more clear.

I have no idea why people spend so much time here trying to convince people that they are 'really TS' but they just can't transition for whatever reason.

Why?

1. TS's have higher status in the Internet Trans Hierarchy, everyone knows this. You know how it goes. Young passable TS's at the top, older fetishists at the bottom.

2. Because of the "Boundary Police" that's why. In practically every TS-centric message board there are those that I sometimes refer to as "That Transsexual" who puts them on themselves to basically try to keep the people they don't think are "True Transsexuals" out. Sometimes they're one of those young transitioner HBSer types, sometimes not. Anyway, they're the "Mean Girl", and they are often quick to imply others are "wannabes" Doesn't that sound familiar?

I mean really, what's the difference between a regular CD who identifies as such but loves to cross-dress, and does it as much as possible and a person who is tortured because they are TS yet they can't transition because of life circumstances real or perceived?

The difference is the latter is a TS.

There is no discernible difference except the latter case will feel entitled to comment on the transition decisions of the transitioners.

So? I mean sure, I understand it can be annoying, but do you want to silence them? And besides being a non-transitioner doesn't mean that they don't know anything. While I do tend to keep silent on transition matters because of this issue, that doesn't mean I can't read or have seen what tends to work for others.

I have sympathy for those that are truly bound by circumstance but I have little patience for people that insist that they WOULD do something IF something else.

Long will I tarry before I make a specific judgement call like that. I mean sure, I tell people to tell their SO's and how going out tends to be "a good thing", but I am not so quick as to deny TS status.

In this part of the forum we should all strive to keep the speculation, no matter how well intended, to a minimum.

Perhaps, perhaps. I don't disagree, but the execution is problematic.

In my not so humble opinion, any transsexual should only transition if they need to do so.

That's what I was told some years back.

Like Xrys, I do not accept the notion that transition is what defines the medical condition. Since we are born transsexual, we don't suddenly become "not transsexual" because we make a choice not to transition. That choice may make us ill-advised, but it does not negate the medical condition.

I agree.

There are several people who post frequently on the crossdressers part of the boards, that I consider TS's Anyone who knows me knows who they are. I think they belong HERE, but most of them are not HERE because of the boundary police. There are people very willing to directly deny their TS-ness because they put their family before their dysphoria.

you take baby steps and keep your eye on the ball...

Indeed.

starting electrolysis is a biggie...if you ever ever think you may transition...start it right now....

In fact several of the people I call "proto-TS" have done so.

its hugely helpful especially at the beginning..

Agreed.

i prefer to just say "Just do something to improve your quality of life...do something to help your gender dysphoria".

Very good general advice.

Just doing small, very doable steps,can start to ease your mind. I hear so many STILL say that they didn't know how to start or who to reach out to. So they do nothing and suffer. There are so many resources out there now. Start small, start slow, start easy. Just start. You will most likely be happier.

That's what you should have said first. :-)

Transsexualism is in part defined by the intensity with which the sex/sex conflict is experienced. High intensity transsexuals (such as Type 5 and 6 transsexuals) have no choice in the matter.

EEK, you're using the HBSer terminology! I'm going to be direct. Stop. Just stop. Don't be "That Transsexual" of this message board. Because right now, you ARE attempting to be the "Boundary Police" and no one elected you. Simply put, it's not your call to define the boundaries and we should focus on inclusion, not exclusion. I really don't care how you want to justify or analyze your transition, but it's not your right to deny others TSness, and you do it quite often.

Let's be honest here, how many of you others consider Kathryn here the one who tries to "police the boundaries" and "keep the hoi polloi out". We all know she does it, don't deny that.

well deborah are you??
if so, what does saying you are ts mean to you??

Hey, if saying so makes people feel better, I'm all for it...because as I was told years ago... the start is admitting it to youself, everything comes from that point.

what is your point in this thread?

Does she need one? You've got Kathryn being the "Boundary Police", Rianna being the Peacemaker, Badtranny taking a blunt common sense approach, and me calling Kathryn out and trying to be inclusionary.

if you don't need clothes to feel "girly", why do you have a computer sex kitten avatar?

HA! That's not a Sex kitten avatar, not by SL standards...she's relatively covered up.

As for "why" someone might have a feminine avatar...some people use it as a form of self-medication/therapy. There is a trans support group in SL, a rather large one. (People also use SL to help out with social awkwardness, various disabilities, etc etc.)

There are some people who say if you're not transitioning then you're not a TS. It's not that i'm scared there are other factors.

Well yes, there are boundary police...but there ARE small steps you can take. Reading, joining a support group, heck even working on presentation or voice. Or coming out to family as trans all small steps.

Okay then let's stop talking about transsexuals and start talking about transitioners.

Ahh, that's a good point. It's why I often say we should use "more words" not less so that people know what we are talking about. It's why I often add qualifiers or additional adjectives. For example those people I call "proto-TS" would be more accurately be described as "currently non-transitioning transsexuals". In fact I could describe myself that way, though I've taken some of those baby steps.

The term Transsexual is apparently waaaaaaaaay to vague to be useful as a description.

It is vague because as I said, it's defined by how one feels.

Of course it's only a matter of time before a significant percentage of people starts to proclaim themselves as transitioners that will not finish until the next life, but for the time being at least, TRANSITIONER should speak to the intended audience and alleviate any confusion.

Laughs. Yeah, I understand where you're coming from.

It just makes me laugh. I feel like people who claim they are a transsexual and are doing nothing about it, thus negating the "transsexual" part are very offended if you call them anything else.

Excuse me? I'm sorry but the term transsexual does not imply a trip to Marci, McGinn or Suporn as a 100 percent certainty. Yes, people should take baby steps but long will I tarry before I deny someone's identity especially since as we all know there are a HELL of a lot of class issues involved with transitioning. Ever wonder why there are so many white collar professionals on Lynn Conway's pages? Class issues. And the ones that aren't white collar professionals are almost all entertainers. And that the majority of non-caucasion people in her successes are almost all entertainers?

I never got sick when I saw my naked body.

No BDD, that's good.

My GID was something I felt but it wasn't something I would show.

I hear that.

What does it mean to become increasingly distressed, and what's the end result of something like that?

This goes to show that we're all different.

Kaitelyn, while I understand the point you are trying to make, the typology of Harry Benjamin is fairly clearly circumscribed. There are certain conditions that must be met to be a Type 6 or 5 transsexual,

Enough with the level stuff. You may want to "police the boundary" but it is NOT a good thing that you do. Would seeing a certified letter from everyone's therapist make you happy? Would that satisfy your need? Wanna see my diagnosis before you acknowledge my TS identity?

Axis I: 302.85-Gender Identity Disorder
300.7-Body Dysmorphic Disorder
Axis II: Asperger’s features
Axis III: Hypospadia
Axis IV: Transgendered

the system and the "standards" actually hurt me ...therapists consulted their manuals and told me to be happy jerking off........literally

Exactly, those of us who are attracted to women, would have been told to shove off and still are sometimes by clueless professionals, especially those like the BBD triad.

... so forgive me for not paying homage to the HBS stuff...

Damn right.

I don't want to be a Transsexual I want to be a GG help clear it up a bit?

Don't judge her for saying that people, don't we all think that at times? It's not realistic of course, but we think it.

Veronica

[Badtranny]

Why?

1. TS's have higher status in the Internet Trans Hierarchy, everyone knows this. You know how it goes. Young passable TS's at the top, older fetishists at the bottom.

2. Because of the "Boundary Police" that's why. In practically every TS-centric message board there are those that I sometimes refer to as "That Transsexual" who puts them on themselves to basically try to keep the people they don't think are "True Transsexuals" out. Sometimes they're one of those young transitioner HBSer types, sometimes not. Anyway, they're the "Mean Girl", and they are often quick to imply others are "wannabes" Doesn't that sound familiar?

Okay, I can understand people wanting to belong to something they feel is an elite group, but why then would they try so hard to expand the definition of that group to include anyone who just decides they should be in? Doesn't that sort of make the group a lot less elite? That would be kinda like me arguing my recognition as a Post-Op because I've done everything else and I think about having a vaJJ an awful lot. No matter how well I weave myself into a new life as a woman, I will never be a Postie until I have the operation. Are they an elite group? well, there's only one way to check in, and you can't ever check out, so that's pretty elite. Perhaps us saucy Pre-Ops should start demanding we be included if we've had an Orchi. I mean that's a big deal too right? I'm kind of a Postie, I'm Post Orchi. I want to be called a Postie too!

Okay seriously, this whole boundary police thing is a lot more about just trying to have meaningful discussions than it is about social engineering, or trying to keep our group pure. A trans girl (and by trans I mean TRANSITIONING) has another thread in this forum about being uncomfortable around amateur dudes playing drag for a charity or something. This is a real thing that FULL-TIMERS deal with on occasion because people don't really understand us and there were several comments from part-timers about this or that, ...in the transsexual forum. Now I have nothing against part timers, or people that are in the closet, or whatever, but why would someone come into our forum and tell us we're being sensitive when that person doesn't have the first clue about how it feels to be out there on stage every moment of every day including when there are people around who may think you're in drag yourself. Ya see a part-timer can just avoid scenes like that. But, us mean and elitist trannies don't get to avoid anything except promotions and invitations.

I have no quarrel with you Veronica, your points are all valid and it's difficult to argue them without running to the emotional high ground of how hard it is to deal with transition sometimes. The problem is; those are the people I want to talk to. How do I address my audience of transitioners without perking the ears (and comments) of people who WANT to transition but don't? I have been through all the stages, I've been closeted, I've been a CD, I've come out, I pierced my ears, I've shopped for makeup for the first time, I've been on HRT, yadda yadda yadda. Those things are my past and now I'm dealing with a transition at 45 and all of the associated drama. Those are my people now. What do I have in common with somebody who is unable to transition? Why does the reason matter? I've always thought that being a Transsexual meant that you were destined for transition, but if that's not the case than how do we address each other?

If 20 of us were on stage speaking to college kids as a panel of Transsexual women, and we all came straight from work, how do we answer the question of; Why do some of you look like men?

[Kathryn Martin]

EEK, you're using the HBSer terminology! I'm going to be direct. Stop. Just stop. Don't be "That Transsexual" of this message board. Because right now, you ARE attempting to be the "Boundary Police" and no one elected you. Simply put, it's not your call to define the boundaries and we should focus on inclusion, not exclusion. I really don't care how you want to justify or analyze your transition, but it's not your right to deny others TSness, and you do it quite often.

Let's be honest here, how many of you others consider Kathryn here the one who tries to "police the boundaries" and "keep the hoi polloi out". We all know she does it, don't deny that.

Veronica, I have never denied anyone their TSness. You or anyone else can call yourselves what you will.

You really think I am policing boundaries. I don't think I need to. The boundaries are pretty clear and society enforces them whether you like it or not. Except society does it from the gut and because society does not know better it will always do it wrong. The reason: your and so many others abject refusal to recognize that saying you are a squirrel does not make you a squirrel. Of course it is uncomfortable to discuss these issues. It might burst the bubble of and unicorns.

I don't know what "hoi polloi" is but I get the gist of what you say. This is pretty much pure demagoguery is it not. I have never attempted to keep anyone off this board. What you are hoping for is a March to the barricades that would result in my eviction. I truly hope you succeed, it would finally end the endless question: What the hell am I doing here?

[Angela Campbell]

It seems like there is a process to this. Some are farther along than others and do not want to be bothered by the problems of the ones who are not so far along. You see there are some of us who are not at the point of being full time yet but really are not so interested in discussing what color panties everyone is wearing or how much they love pantyhose. Some are looking for help, advice, or information and look here since we know what we are, but are kind of pushed out by the ones who see us as "less" because we have not gone as far as they have. In the other side of the forum there is a vast inclusion of everyone accepted but it is not so apparent here. Maybe it is good since if you are going to transition you will need to develop a thick skin. I come here looking for whatever I can get that will help me make the decisions I need to make, learn what I have to learn and try to get an idea of what might be ahead of me.

Some of us are transexual and just don't know what to do next. We really do not fit in with the ones who do this as a fetish, or because "they want to connect with their fem side" or find the clothes are just more comfy. We also do not seem to fit in here because we are not yet at the point where someone else is yet. As the original OP said "too scared to do anything about it"....well yes...damn scared....and lost...and somewhat isolated, because if we are scared we must not be a transexual.

I am a menber of a very large TG group, in fact it is the largest tri ess group in the country. We are open to all in the TG community from fetish dressers to post op. I am friends with many there. I can see the differences now so much more than I did at first and can tell the differences between the TS and cd so clearly now. There are the ones who dress up so they can get a thrill doing the dishes, and the ones who want to become something. The second group consists of the ones who are well on the way and the ones who are making baby steps and are unsure, scared, or lost about what to do next. Then there are the ones who have pushed through that stage and have little interest in those who are on the path behind them. Does a cd who goes out in town dressed have disdain for the ones who only wear the underwear at home behind closed doors? Does the pre op full time TS have disdain for the ones who are at the very beginning of their journey? Where do they go to sort things out?

[Rogina B]

I've always thought that being a Transsexual meant that you were destined for transition, but if that's not the case than how do we address each other?

If 20 of us were on stage speaking to college kids as a panel of Transsexual women, and we all came straight from work, how do we answer the question of; Why do some of you look like men?

And that would seem to be the right time for the "transitioner" and "non transitioner" labels to be perfectly discriptive!

[Lisa Gerrie]

My dad is an MD, and he grumbles about ministers and chiropractors using the honorific "doctor". "It should be reserved for people that earn it." I get that, but he kinda had to get over it.

(Sometimes these threads remind me of a black person telling somebody else that they aren't really black.)

[Deborah_UK]

Ellen,

I'm sorry you might think that way. Personally, as a very new entrant to the post-op "group" (and I use that term loosely and not with any sense of elitism), I'm hanging around to try and give something back where I can. I can relate to some of the threads but my transition, fraught with personal issues to begin with (a partner of ten years being very anti and an elderly mother who refused(es) to acknowledge my name change) had to go ahead because my life had reached the stage where I could no longer go on living for other people and HAD to move my life on.

There seem to be TS's who make lots of excuses not to transition - and that's their choice, I won't criticise anyone for that. I will give advice when asked and when I can speak from experience.

If my advice and assistance is not required then so be it, I can get on with my life as a woman and wish those that follow all the very best.

But to quote the title of the thread "I am Trans, but I am scared to do anything about it." Well, I was trans and I was scared to do anything about it, but now I'm a woman with a trans history and I am so glad I got over those fears!

[Marleena]

I for one appreciate the help from the postop women. They are doing us a favor by being here. Sometimes they help people save themselves from themselves. I can't understand anybody wanting to be TS but it does happen. We are all in different places, transitioned, transitioning, fighting it and the advice is free here. Sometimes it's not what we want to hear but it's necessary.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I don't think its about elitism...Melissa mentions it...we are trying to have a discussion...it can be messy, but its important to know who is who...labels are messy, sorry they matter...self identification is valid, but without experience it lacks gravitas...i love the way kathryn says it...society will enforce this whether any of us like it or not...you are what you live kind of thing...

my nature is analytical and pragmatic...I do my best to improve my quality of life... that is a principle...it applies to every single thing...and my comments always reflect my own principles...so that's where i'm coming from..there is no "elitism"

++++++++++++

in the ts case, improving your quality of life is enormously challenging... its a unique problem....when compared to LGB people, gender queer people, cds and tgs, the TS best solutions are totally and completely different than for the not TS

... Non TS people have many more options available to them to improve their lives....one option they have is to mitigate their own gender anxiety by saying they are ts(sometimes), hang out with ts/tg people (including here), and generally try to have en femme time based on their own very valid needs...

usually its no big deal... i would never want it to be only ts posts...we get 2 posts a day tops in safe haven...
A navel gazing thread called "what is ts?" would hold little interest to me...but it can be an important medical system question.... its of limited value in an open forum...

However, in the specific posts where the OP is about "What should i do???"...i personally believe understanding who is talking is important..i'm a mathemetician....as you can all see, no one should come to me for grammar and spelling advice..but there is nothing from stopping me posting ideas on an Elements of Style website (does one exist??heh)

even though i know i might express it as a disbelief that a person is trans, perhaps the better focus is what is your level of gender dyshphoria...
...women are not better than men...being ts is not the ultimate in transgenderism(ugh)...being ts sucks...for me it was worse than i could have ever imagined...

if you don't feel that way about your life right now, forgive me but i can only imagine two cases...either you are not ts and self identification as ts is part of your tg nature, its part of your girl time...or you are in for a big surprise and you literally have no idea what you are in for....people that are suffering from a worsening gender dysphoria are not well served looking for answers that do not reflect their reality....that's not elitism or meanness...that's the way it is..

its not the borg assimilating true ts at the exclusion of others...its just being practical about making life altering decisions, with the best possible information...

[Badtranny]

(Sometimes these threads remind me of a black person telling somebody else that they aren't really black.)

Then why do I even try to explain it? If this is what you got out of my post then I am truly yelling into a hole.

Then there are the ones who have pushed through that stage and have little interest in those who are on the path behind them.

One of my favorite new friends is about 2 years behind me in her transition. Basically just starting out, just coming out etc. We hang out every week and I've recommended my electrologist, my doctor, my salon, etc etc,
I know a few later than me transitioners in fact and I am always available to help them. What more can I do?

[Lisa Gerrie]

Melissa, you are right. I misunderstood one of your significant points, and I apologize. It may have been colored by some of the other things I have read from you, outside this forum, and that was also a mistake.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Okay, I can understand people wanting to belong to something they feel is an elite group, but why then would they try so hard to expand the definition of that group to include anyone who just decides they should be in? Doesn't that sort of make the group a lot less elite?

I'm not quite for certain what you're saying here. I think it's my fault really, perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

While I think that we all know Young passable TS's are at the top of the totem pole...I don't think that there are many here on these boards who claim a TS identity just to have higher status. Yes it happens, but I don't think it's "common"

That would be kinda like me arguing my recognition as a Post-Op because I've done everything else and I think about having a vaJJ an awful lot. No matter how well I weave myself into a new life as a woman, I will never be a Postie until I have the operation.

Ahhh, but there's a difference, you're talking physical, but the definition of transsexual is more mental but can (and often does) include physical changes. To put it another way. weren't you a TS before you started HRT? Or weren't you a TS before you figured out that's what you were? Yes you've taken steps, but that just makes you one "kind" of a transsexual.

I mean that's a big deal too right? I'm kind of a Postie, I'm Post Orchi. I want to be called a Postie too!

Well I consider it a big step...but as is sometimes said...most people don't see your genitals.

Which is partly what leads to the border policing I think. At first glance it's not that easy to tell the difference between a well put together CD and a TS who's starting a transition. Heck there are self identified CD's/middle pathers who do low doses of hormones or who have done beard removal. There are CD's out there who have never worn wigs and TS's that DO. And then some CD's eventually identify as TS's. The boundaries are ill defined and fuzzy, but some people want them to be defined...it makes them feel better.

Okay seriously, this whole boundary police thing is a lot more about just trying to have meaningful discussions than it is about social engineering, or trying to keep our group pure.

Is it, I'm not so sure. I've been around the block as it were, been here quite a while, since 2005 and other spaces before that going back to USENET in 1999. I have seen a LOT of border policing and from what I saw it most certainly was about status.

A trans girl (and by trans I mean TRANSITIONING) has another thread in this forum about being uncomfortable around amateur dudes playing drag for a charity or something.

Can you point me to the thread?

This is a real thing that FULL-TIMERS deal with on occasion because people don't really understand us and there were several comments from part-timers about this or that, ...in the transsexual forum. Now I have nothing against part timers, or people that are in the closet, or whatever, but why would someone come into our forum and tell us we're being sensitive when that person doesn't have the first clue about how it feels to be out there on stage every moment of every day including when there are people around who may think you're in drag yourself. Ya see a part-timer can just avoid scenes like that. But, us mean and elitist trannies don't get to avoid anything except promotions and invitations.

Now hold on a minute.

1. Drag queens exist.
2. they sometimes do charity events.
3. they aren't going to stop doing drag or events.

So therefore if one is uncomfortable with that, then the best thing is to NOT go to such things. And even full timers can choose what events they attend, can't they? Or they can control their reaction, I mean, I may not like certain things like how some muggles equate TS's with drag queens, but it IS for charity. And besides, if some muggle doesn't know squat it's their fault, not the drag queen's.

Besides...some drag queens ARE transgendered...and some do transition. Hell, there have been three participants on RuPaul's Drag competition show who've gone on to transition, or continue the transition they paused to take part in the show!

So maybe the transgirl was being a bit sensitive, the problem really isn't the queens, it's the Muggles lack of knowledge and how they perceive things. If some Muggle out there mistakes her for a queen, all she has to do is speak up. (And yes, I do know that gets tiresome, but that's the reality of it. Because the non-trans people simply don't know how to act/address/interact with transpeople they have little experience with us.

Some years back I was once asked by an SA at Victoria's Secret if I did drag shows. Rather than being offended, I responded. 1. That's not my sort of thing (mentioned identifying as transgendered and not a drag queen) and 2. even if it was my sort of thing I wasn't pretty enough. The SA said I should try it some time that I'd be good at it since I was "petite" (yeah right) I then basically said, that I wasn't interested at all.

I have no quarrel with you Veronica, your points are all valid and it's difficult to argue them without running to the emotional high ground of how hard it is to deal with transition sometimes.

I have no quarrel with you either, in fact I think using more words and adding transitioner to transsexual when one means transsexuals who are transitioning is a great idea. And I know it's hard to deal with transition just like you know how it can be hard to deal with the dysphoria when one isn't currently transitioning. Sucks for everyone doesn't it.

How do I address my audience of transitioners without perking the ears (and comments) of people who WANT to transition but don't?

Easy, you use more words, and adjectives. Describe what info you want, and whom you're wanting it from. Now that doesn't mean I think that those who don't fit the criteria don't know anything. For example, I may not know about dosages, but I do know that patches and injections are safer on the liver than pills. I may not have had laser but I know that Laser doesn't work very well on white/blond hair. I may not have talked to my HR and set up a date for transitioning, but I do know what the state protections are for transfolk and I've seen what sorts of approaches have tended to work well. And while I'm not currently transitioning, I have done counseling and have my hormone letter and came out to my immediate family as transgendered (and eventually told them that I identified as TS) years ago. Came out to my sister and mother in '93, my dad in 94. I may not be full time, but I'm also not the most masculine looking of people, slipping and sliding my way into androgyny as best I can. I've been female pronouned in drive thru's, on the phone and getting my drivers license renewed. Happens less than it used to though...sigh...age. I also used to post my real legal male name to these boards...BEFORE I joined the Safe Haven...it was a TS that said I probably shouldn't for privacy reasons.

I may not be transitioning, but that doesn't mean I don't have experiences and don't know anything.

I have been through all the stages, I've been closeted, I've been a CD, I've come out, I pierced my ears, I've shopped for makeup for the first time, I've been on HRT, yadda yadda yadda.

I could have said that, except for the HRT part of course. And yes I know HRT is a big thing.

Those things are my past and now I'm dealing with a transition at 45 and all of the associated drama. Those are my people now. What do I have in common with somebody who is unable to transition?

What do you have in common? You were like them once, weren't you? You understand how they feel, right? For example, while I'm a TS, I did identify as a CD for a very long time...so I can understand how they feel and want to help them. Besides, some of them are actually TS's.

I've always thought that being a Transsexual meant that you were destined for transition, but if that's not the case than how do we address each other?

I see we come at that differently. I was taught/told that being a Transsexual usually led to transition, but not always. And that those Transsexuals who were not transitioning, were still TS's even though some "border police" didn't think so.

If 20 of us were on stage speaking to college kids as a panel of Transsexual women, and we all came straight from work, how do we answer the question of; Why do some of you look like men?

Well, for the first part, I probably wouldn't take part in such a thing if it just involved TS's unless I was told in no uncertain terms that they wanted a presence from the diversity of TS's of varying experiences, including those not currently transitioning. Now if said panel was a generalized panel of TG people I wouldn't have any qualms at all.

And the question of why some look different is easy, that's when you explain the difference between various stages of transition and non-transitioners.

You see there are some of us who are not at the point of being full time yet but really are not so interested in discussing what color panties everyone is wearing or how much they love pantyhose. Some are looking for help, advice, or information and look here since we know what we are, but are kind of pushed out by the ones who see us as "less" because we have not gone as far as they have. In the other side of the forum there is a vast inclusion of everyone accepted but it is not so apparent here. Maybe it is good since if you are going to transition you will need to develop a thick skin. I come here looking for whatever I can get that will help me make the decisions I need to make, learn what I have to learn and try to get an idea of what might be ahead of me.

Ecellent statements, I agree very much.

As the original OP said "too scared to do anything about it"....well yes...damn scared....and lost...and somewhat isolated, because if we are scared we must not be a transexual.

Some might say the latter, but I wouldn't.

And that would seem to be the right time for the "transitioner" and "non transitioner" labels to be perfectly discriptive!

Exactly.

But to quote the title of the thread "I am Trans, but I am scared to do anything about it." Well, I was trans and I was scared to do anything about it, but now I'm a woman with a trans history and I am so glad I got over those fears!

I'm glad too, but sometimes these kinds threads (not just referring to this one here on this board) come across as "if you have those fears you're not a real transsexual"

we are trying to have a discussion...it can be messy, but its important to know who is who...labels are messy, sorry they matter...self identification is valid, but without experience it lacks gravitas...

But this really isn't a problem is it? I don't see much confusion of who is who or who's done what. We all know who the transitioners are. If necessary check the thread histories. And as I said to Melissa the Badtranny, just because I haven't done certain things, doesn't mean I don't know anything about the subject though as you know I defer to those with more knowledge. (you don't see me posting in hormone dosage threads, do you)

in the ts case, improving your quality of life is enormously challenging... its a unique problem....when compared to LGB people, gender queer people, cds and tgs, the TS best solutions are totally and completely different than for the not TS

I don't think the differences are so stark between us as you make them out to be. After all Kathryn Martin, Badtranny Melissa and myself all identified as CD's at one time or another.

Let's put it this way. Suppose you're a TS, but your finances are limited. what if you're a person with a disability or retired with just Soc-Sec, or have a low paying job and don't have enough money to get the education to get a higher paying one...how do you deal with the dysphoria then? Or what if your medical history prevents HRT? Or what if you're afraid of not being able to ever see your kids again. All of these are valid reasons...not "excuses" It belittles others not so fortunate to call them excuses.

even though i know i might express it as a disbelief that a person is trans, perhaps the better focus is what is your level of gender dyshphoria...

But why express disbelief at all, why not respect others self identity. I mean after all, full time transsexuals want their dientities respected by those around them...they don't want their families still calling them by their boyname. Why doubt the identities of those here?

its not the borg assimilating true ts at the exclusion of others...its just being practical about making life altering decisions, with the best possible information...

Life and emotions are not mathematics. You can't treat others like an equation.

One of my favorite new friends is about 2 years behind me in her transition. Basically just starting out, just coming out etc. We hang out every week and I've recommended my electrologist, my doctor, my salon, etc etc,
I know a few later than me transitioners in fact and I am always available to help them. What more can I do?

You're doing your best, I know that...and I know you try to help others....I've learned from you, for sure.

Veronica

[Kaitlyn Michele]

veronica you make a big assumption, and that is honesty of posts....
sorry but i have been on the bad end of a number of exchanges here that included people that posted over a long period of time, and it turned out they were not honest..if we knew people here were 100% and always honest, this would be a simpler discussion..

++++++
i said I was a mathemetician...i said i was analytical and pragmatic... i used the word practical... how is that treating others as an equation?? feel free to parse me to death but get it right!!

but i thank you for saying it because you highlight my point of view

...i learned that when in the deep throes of GD, being realistic and practical was a life saver, and it colors all my advice to people for better or worse...i lived it
as someone that actually transitioned, i learned that my emotional and fear based decisions went poorly for me, and my well thought out planned decisions went quite well.....they were literally life savers..

how can anyone that hasn't gone through it say anything about that other than tossing some sticks and stones at it...