Out

[PaulaQ]

Had interesting conversation at dinner.

My wife (K) says "I was kinda freaked out last night", and I was like "well, yeah, but you'd had a hard day and a session with your therapist, and you weren't sleeping. So it was to be expected."
K: "So we don't have to talk about this stuff every day?"
P: "Nope, let's not mention it"

So then she totally starts asking me questions:
K: "So what'd you buy the other day, no pants right? You didn't buy anything pink did you?"
P: "I bought some jeans, cargos, a couple of capris, and some tops, a couple pink, one orange, one blue, and some sandals."
K: "I thought you'd buy skirts?"
P: "I may exchange something for a skirt and a blouse - I thought about that."
K: "wasn't that weird? I guess they thought you were shopping for someone else?"
P: "Nah, they knew it was for me, I got a fitting room. I don't care what people think. The SA was nice - I called first to make sure it wouldn't bother anyone."
K: "Well, that was nice of you to call."
P: "It was a little hard to try on shoes out in public, but I did that too."
K: "So do you like wearing the stuff?"
P: "Yes, very much so." (Not the answer she was hoping for!)
K: "Would it help if I gave you some mascara and eyeshadow colors I don't use?"
P: "Sure hon - I'd love it. I appreciate how hard this is for you, and how hard you are trying, and as I said last night, I appreciate it with every fiber of my being. I love you!"
K: "It's OK, I guess, if you shave your chest if you need to."
P: "You sure? I think I'd get it waxed in Tulsa, lasts longer, and less stubble."
K: "Geeze, that hurts - are you nuts? I hate getting waxed!"

K: "There's a wig store in Tulsa"
P: "I'd like to check it out sometime, but I have a wig, just so you know. I'm sorry to spring stuff on you, but I am trying to only tell you stuff when you ask - I don't want to push stuff on you."
K: "Is it long? What color is it?"
P: "It's dirty blonde, probably close to my original natural color when I was younger, and it's medium length, curls around my face. It's nice - my therapist liked it."
K: "You showed your therapist?!?"
P: "Yes, via skype."

We talk about other stuff after that.

So we go home, watch some TV, and she tells me this is all really hard, and crys on my chest a little bit. She tells me there's not enough wine in the world to solve this for her. She tells me that she keeps thinking about the future, what may happen. I tell her I know, and that I'm so sorry. I hold her for a little while. She takes a bath, comes to bed with me.

She is really trying hard. I feel bad this is so hard for her. But she's really moving fast too.

[Jenni Yumiko]

It really sounds like she is trying to accept and be supportive, just all her previous knowledge is telling her wtf run away. Yur relationship seems strong and I really think you guys will pull through happily together.
My offer still stands if she wants to talk to my wife, although not sure how that would pan out. :-)

[Maria 60]

Hey Paula you did the right thing, the more time that would have went on the longer the secret. I am no expert but seems like your both thinking what's going to happen tomorrow but your not giving tomorrow a chance to come. One day at a time would be a better idea and then see which road it leads you and if things don't look good you can always change roads, so far nothing you said or did is carved in stone there's lot of room for change or compromise believe it or not this could be a win win situation. My wife is a big supporter of my dressing but as much at times she has to bend I can't be selfish either I have to think about her to and I do feel you are also thinking about her. It sounds like you both love each other and now you are going to have to get her back to the talking table and try to think about today and hopefully it will lead you to a happy tomorrow together. I hope you keep us updated.

[suchacutie]

Hi Paula. I've continued reading this thread hoping that a certain tide would turn. Specifically I was hoping that your wife would begin to see the positive aspects and start to focus on those. Yes, life can change, but it doesn't have to be a negative, it could be a tremendous positive! It also will certainly be easier for both of your gendered selves if she sees the positives, and likely will help you keep both of your gendered selves, not losing anything!

I do so hope for the positive for both of you!

[flatlander_48]

You can read a lot into how people speak. I think the trick in these kinds of discussions where you never know when you're going to sneak up on a minefield, is to try to stay relaxed and even. When you're presenting new information that has the potential to kickstart a nasty discussion, the relaxed and even approach lends the sense that you're not trying to create a charged situation or flaunt something. It has the effect of giving the other person, in this case your wife, even more to be p+++ed about. The conversation will quickly degenerate and that isn't what either of you want. As I said before, you have to communicate in such a way as to continue to be heard. Once people get upset, it's VERY hard to be angry and hear what the other person is trying to say at the same time.

Obviously we can't tell what the speech, tone and inflections were like from the text. However, the text by itself seems pretty even and low key.

Good for you!

[PaulaQ]

@Jenn, Maria & Tina - thanks for your support!

@flatlander - yes, my voice was very calm. My wife was too. I'm almost always calm - at least on the surface. I'm so calm that it's often difficult to tell when I'm really upset. But in this case, I was calm, and happy to answer her questions. It's a little bit of a difficult dance though. I want to be honest, but I don't want to overwhelm her. So I admitted to having a wig, but I didn't tell her that I had a nice set of breast forms. I did tell her where I got the wig - so it wouldn't be difficult to guess that I might well have purchased forms from the same store, but she didn't ask that, so I didn't tell her. I didn't want to freak her out. I am trying to think of this as "controlled doses of the truth."

I also haven't told her that I have a small collection of cosmetics. (Drug store stuff mostly - I really need to go to the mall for a makeover, and to buy some better quality stuff.) Still, while I'm learning the basics, I figure the cheaper stuff is better - I suck at applying it still, so wasting it is a little less painful.

I am feeling more positive about the future. I think we have a chance. There's still a long way to go, and so many unknowns though. My wife is a hell of a woman though, and she's trying hard, and this is something she's so ill prepared for.

[flatlander_48]

@Jenn, Maria & Tina - thanks for your support!

@flatlander - yes, my voice was very calm. My wife was too. I'm almost always calm - at least on the surface. I'm so calm that it's often difficult to tell when I'm really upset. But in this case, I was calm, and happy to answer her questions. It's a little bit of a difficult dance though. I want to be honest, but I don't want to overwhelm her.

I said that you were doing good, but Hell, I didn't say it was going to be easy!?!?!?

So I admitted to having a wig, but I didn't tell her that I had a nice set of breast forms. I did tell her where I got the wig - so it wouldn't be difficult to guess that I might well have purchased forms from the same store, but she didn't ask that, so I didn't tell her. I didn't want to freak her out. I am trying to think of this as "controlled doses of the truth."

Yes, at places where I've worked, we call it Managing The News...

I also haven't told her that I have a small collection of cosmetics. (Drug store stuff mostly - I really need to go to the mall for a makeover, and to buy some better quality stuff.) Still, while I'm learning the basics, I figure the cheaper stuff is better - I suck at applying it still, so wasting it is a little less painful.

I am feeling more positive about the future. I think we have a chance. There's still a long way to go, and so many unknowns though. My wife is a hell of a woman though, and she's trying hard, and this is something she's so ill prepared for.

Continued Good Luck...

One other thing: For things that you haven't told her about yet, make CERTAIN that she doesn't find out before you discuss it. Remember, (1) Oh S++t cancels (12) Atta Girls, At Least...

[PaulaQ]

I said that you were doing good, but Hell, I didn't say it was going to be easy!?!?!?

Heh, sorry flatlander, I meant to thank you for your support and friendship too! You've given me a lot of really solid advice and encouragment, and I genuinely appreciate it.

One other thing: For things that you haven't told her about yet, make CERTAIN that she doesn't find out before you discuss it. Remember, (1) Oh S++t cancels (12) Atta Girls, At Least...

Yeah, for sure. She does understand, though, that I'm witholding some info until she asks for it. She is realistic about this, and knows that telling me "be honest - but don't let me see anything" is a very difficult situation for me too. I've made it clear that we just have to keep communicating, and as she's ready for things, I'm willing to talk to her about anything.

The only thing I'm really worried about is her finding out that I am trying to go out to my TG support meetings while dressed as Paula. I dunno - I could go in drab, but I don't really want them to get to know that other guy. It wouldn't be a big deal - there were other girls there who didn't present as female for the meeting. (One girl works in a correctional facility and, yeah, not a trans friendly workplace, as you might expect.) I just don't feel like taking half measures - if I'm going to try this, I'm going to try it all the way. I want to know as much as possible if it is or isn't right for me.

[flatlander_48]

No problem, I was just messing with you!!

I understand what you say in the last paragraph. It is experiential and there is no substitute for it. Is there some way that you can leave home in your regular clothes, locate Superman's phone booth and do the business (as the English say)? Realizing that you have 2 conflicting needs (your desires to dress and your wife's desire to not see you dressed), is there some compromise that would work?

[PaulaQ]

Yeah, I am definitely looking for a 'phone booth'. I can possibly change at the center. I also bet one of the other girls would let me change at her place. I just need to make the friendship and ask. I don't want to drive around locally dressed, my car is quite unique in the area, there would be no mistaking me.

edit: I'm also wondering whether or not to try to meet my wife's therapist in person at the center. He leads a youth TG group there. I want to thank him in person for helping her, but I'd also feel sort of bad for him to see me before she does.

OH yeah, one other thought - one thing that I didn't ever anticipate was that my wife loves me for the way I look. I hate myself enough that it never occurred to me that she'd love me BECAUSE of how I look, in part, rather than IN SPITE OF how I look. My own distorted self-image at work here made me misjudge this really badly.

[flatlander_48]

Might be useful to put the question to the therapist before you try to find the person. Bit of an odd situation, though...

[EmilyPith]

Wow, Paula, you are a very brave strong person. What a long way the two of you have come in the past few months!

[Lisa Jeffreys]

Paula, that was an amazing story. I hope one day when I find myself involved with a special lady that I have one tenth of the courage to tell her as openly and honestly as you did.

Lisa

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Paula, I just set here and read all of your posts on this thread it sounds that your wife can't live with you and she can't live without you.
it sounds like that she is going to come around at some point but no time soon good luck on this one.

[traci_k]

Paula,
Oh the rollercoaster. But keep positibe. You two are still talking, want to work things out and she's still asking questions and you're answering honestly. I pray that love, friendhip and understanding will win the day.
Hugs

[PaulaQ]

So I'm rather smooth now - I waxed my chest and arms today. My wife's initial reaction wasn't terribly positive. She hates that it's different. I feel a *lot* better though - I'd hate my body so much, and the hair was really bothering me. I'd almost rather have had scales than that hair. Ugh! I know this is completely irrational - but I really do feel a lot better. I guess this is what gender dysphoria is like. Yuck.

I also found out that I'm "out" to more people than I knew. My wife had lunch with two of her girlfriends today, one who already knew, and another one who didn't. She told her other friend, who isn't one of the people who I'd preferred to have known about this. Her other friend drinks quite a bit, and gossips a lot, and doesn't sound too accepting of this. My wife didn't enjoy her lunch too much though - her friends were so busy supporting her / bashing me that I don't think she had a very good time of it.

This is all very hard for her. I kind of figured this would happen though. My wife is a very trusting person. I hope her telling doesn't backfire on her. (I also hope it doesn't backfire on me too badly - I don't really want to move away.)

She also told another coworker about what's going on with her, this woman is also our neighbor. She sounded more accepting - she apparently knows drag queens and knows where to buy shoes. Go figure - I'd have never guessed that.

I assume I'll be out to everyone I know fairly soon. Guess I'll find out who my real friends are. Best guess - I don't actually have any here. Well, at least my wife will have some support.

I have a couple of social gatherings to attend with these people soon. I won't really know who knows, and who doesn't. I'm not sure I want to go to any of them anymore. It would be really ugly if someone made a scene about the whole mess. Or maybe I'll just sort of be frozen out of the conversation. I dunno. Hopefully she doesn't get frozen out / univited from stuff.

It's a teeny little rural town. Real conservative. There will be gossip, almost certainly. People can be petty.

Maybe I should just tell everyone I know in town now? At least that way I'd get to tell my side of the story.

[Wildaboutheels]

Paula [IMO] there will be at least some people in any town [regardless of size] "sharp enough" to interact with you as they always have in the past regardless of what they have been told/heard/think they know. They are not going to allow gossip, inuendo and speculation to ruin whatever Relationship they have with you built up over who knows how many years. They may or may not care to hear "your side" of the story [from YOU] but I would not volunteer it unless they ask if I were in your shoes.

Did you do the waxing yourself?

[PaulaQ]

Did you do the waxing yourself?

No, I went to a European Wax Center location in the nearest big town. It wasn't really painful, I think it hurt less than pulling off a bandaid, honestly. The product they use is sort of a soft, vinyl-like wax. There are no strips, and it is still quite flexible when it cools. The only thing that kind of weirded out the woman who waxed me was that I had her do my underarms, and my full arms. Most guys don't go for that. The rest of it, though, was no problem.

It'll be great - I won't feel like taking a belt sander to my chest tomorrow morning.

[arbon]

Maybe I should just tell everyone I know in town now? At least that way I'd get to tell my side of the story.

If I ever had it to do over again I would just get everyone that knows me together for a huge party and get up on stage in a pretty dress and tell all those shocked faces at once that yes I am really a woman deal with it, and then sneak out the back with the car and my boyfriend waiting to take me to the airport. Let them figure it out. Kind of like Bilbo did in lord of the rings, only he was not a woman, I don't have a ring to make me invisible and I would go to Thailand.

anyway,
it sounds like everyone is going to know about you soon enough. Your free no more closets for you. You'll get used to it in no time.

[PaulaQ]

anyway,
it sounds like everyone is going to know about you soon enough. Your free no more closets for you. You'll get used to it in no time.

Yeah, I guess so. Hopefully the local rednecks don't burn down my damn house.

I'm a little worried, because the next party is a graduation party for the son of her friend who gossips and doesn't seem so accepting. The son came out about a year and a half ago as "maybe gay". I don't think his folks have talked to him about it since. (I guess he'll figure this out for sure when he gets to college?) Anyway, I'm a little worried they'll think I'll be a bad influence on the kid or something. (Like my TG cooties will spread or something...) They are very conservative people.

So would you go to that social gathering after this?

I think maybe I'll start planning to come out to my family, and closest, longest term friends. At least maybe my grown kids. I'm tired of not being able to talk about this with anyone. Maybe I'll tell mom on mother's day. I can write on the card "Love you mom, from your current son and (possibly) future daughter." It'll be great! (Just kidding about mother's day.)

[arbon]

Try not to speculate about what people may or may not think, or who knows and does not know, you'll just give yourself a headache with all the worry.

Go and socialize, be calm, be confident in yourself.

Where do you want to go with all of this?
If you talk to family and friends what are you going to tell them? It might not be bad to talk to them especially if you think they will find out from others. Or maybe its better to be quiet for a while, catch your breath, let things sit as they are. Beyond the few people your wife has talked to directly it will all be rumor if they start talking. Thats not a big deal really.
I don't know, do what your heart tells you. But the more you talk, the more out you are, the real it becomes. You can't undo it, so you better be able to own it.

[suchacutie]

You mentioned that you were worried about a "scene" at these gatherings. The best defense is a good offense, IMHO. If you expect one, be ready to smile and not be intimidated. What you are doing is not illegal or in any way immoral. Having thought it through ahead of time will allow you to keep your cool and stay above the fray. You wife will likely also appreciate your strength during any such issues!

[PaulaQ]

Where do you want to go with all of this?
If you talk to family and friends what are you going to tell them?

Well, that's a good question - where do I want to go with all this indeed? I dunno. Between gender dysphoria, my horrendously bad emotional state, and now apparently social issues, since everyone knows, I'm wondering whether or not I have any say in the matter of whether or not I transition? It'd be nice if I got a vote in this, but doesn't seem like I will. I think the only question is "when will I join 'Team Girl'", rather than "if". If the stuff I'm doing to alleviate my GD doesn't help soon, I'm going to start seriously talking to my therapist about HRT. I hope to avoid that long enough to give me and my wife both a chance to process this and hopefully find a place where we can deal with that. Because that's where real change starts happening, as opposed to the piddly crap that has my wife so flummoxed now.

But the more you talk, the more out you are, the real it becomes. You can't undo it, so you better be able to own it.

Yes, this I realize. To be honest, this would be the main reason I'd tell more people - because I've made up my mind to go forward. I'm not at that point yet, so this seems premature. I'd like to have a friend or family member who I could talk with for support - I can't really get that from my wife, not really, not with confidence anyway, but I realized this morning:
1. I don't know who I could tell and how they'd react
2. I don't know what I'd really say. I feel like a female inside, but I don't know if I'll transition all the way yet.
3. Even if I tell someone, I'm the type of person who just doesn't talk about their own problems in person. (Hard to believe from my forum posts, I know - this is almost the only place where I'm completely honest.) I wouldn't talk anyway, and that is the sad truth. Heck, I hide my emotions from my therapist. I don't mean too - but I just do this automatically. So hard to change this.

Ironically though, if this goes badly for me socially here, my wife likely just increased the chances we'll split up. If I'm some sort of pariah, I'll be much more likely to move.

I'm going to talk to her about this tonight. I'll post how it goes. I'm not expecting a very good conversation about this. I'm half tempted to show up to the party this weekend in a dress, and be done with it... Heck, if they are going to talk about me anyway, let's give them something to talk about!

[Lisa Gerrie]

Paula, I'd print out what you have written in this thread and read it to your therapist, unedited. It sure sounds honest and unfiltered to me. Your advisers need good raw data.

[flatlander_48]

I'm the type of person who just doesn't talk about their own problems in person. (Hard to believe from my forum posts, I know - this is almost the only place where I'm completely honest.) I wouldn't talk anyway, and that is the sad truth. Heck, I hide my emotions from my therapist. I don't mean too - but I just do this automatically. So hard to change this.

I realize it is hard to change a lifetime of habits. In this case, I suspect it feels like exposing yourself to the world. But consider this, would you take your car to a mechanic, hand him or her the keys and leave without explaining what the problems were? It's good to have high expectations of those we ask to help us and that they can truly change our lives for the better, but perhaps this may be a bit too much. Maybe?